View Poll Results: Validity of VI

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  • VI can be used to determine type from facial/physical appearance.

    9 29.03%
  • VI can be used to determine type from facial expressions, not physical appearance.

    15 48.39%
  • VI is BS, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

    7 22.58%
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Thread: Visual identification validity poll

  1. #1
    rob timidly hacim's Avatar
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    Default Visual identification validity poll

    I wanted to post a thread with a poll for opinions on the validity of VI. We can discuss below, if anyone cares about their answer or would like to justify your answer. If you think there should be another option, feel free to tell.

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    rob timidly hacim's Avatar
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    That's a very good argument. My gut reaction to VI claims are that they're stupid and rather superficial, but now that I research further it seems like a plausible phenomena. For example, from my lovely duals would manifest itself in lots of , etc. I'm undecided at the moment.
    (also, I'm sure it was accidental, but the brain is definitely not a muscle.)

  3. #3
    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Depends strongly on the practitioner and the methodology. It's one more tool at everyone's disposal; the more angles of attack amongst us all, the better. Trying too hard to standardize the approach has led to worse results imo: Exhibit A.

    A shot-in-the-dark explanation for everything via the system itself would be that VI is largely a Te/Se endeavor, and the best fields to glue those disparate nodes together would be Fi and Ni. Gamma would be the home of VI at its most exalted. Fits well enough with what I've seen around here.

    VI is just another thing I do that gets cross-referenced with a lot of other things I do.

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    Feminzazi aixelsyd's Avatar
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    VI has come to be my primary means of typing. So clearly I'm going to say it's a valid way of determining type. I think it's a method that works better for some than others. I'd say it's better for those who notice a lot of concrete details about a person's face and behavior and can make instant connections between someone's body and mannerisms and another person's in order to find or narrow down a type. I find it more effective than going by the notion that so-and-so comes off as quiet and so must be an introvert, or my friend talks a lot and must be an extrovert (One of my more talkative friends happens to be ILI, for instance, especially compared to my best friend who is ILE but is less talkative than many of my other friends). Or this guy seems like an ILI but smiles more than an ILI should and is friendlier than an ILI should. After all, a projected image isn't the same as one's true strengths and weaknesses.
    Life's a bitch and she's got me pussy whipped.

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    xerx's Avatar
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    VI in the sense of physical facial features? Maybe sometimes, if you have a big mental repository of accurate typings.

    VI in the sense of body language, esp. when combined with familiar speech patterns (auditory identification)? Definitely, if you have a big mental repository of accurate typings.
    A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; It cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows the other. Mao Tse Tung

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    This poll seems to be referring to the static typing of photographs, which is nowhere near as helpful as typing a person...in person.

  7. #7
    rob timidly hacim's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to imply that, sorry. In person, however, I would guess that VI would be used mostly to observe their facial expressions and mannerisms. I also think that there's plenty of stock in observing how they dress. That being said, I am not naturally observant of these things in real-time interaction.

    Thanks to everyone for replying!

  8. #8
    Haikus suedehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MicahKoopa View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that, sorry. In person, however, I would guess that VI would be used mostly to observe their facial expressions and mannerisms. I also think that there's plenty of stock in observing how they dress. That being said, I am not naturally observant of these things in real-time interaction.

    Thanks to everyone for replying!

    Checkered shirts, thrift store pieces and obnoxious/clumsy/poorly-coordinated colors = Alpha (NT).










    Kidding.

  9. #9
    rob timidly hacim's Avatar
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    Spot on, in the case of ILEs and LIIs around the world!

    Einstein-001.jpg

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    Regarding visual identification, I often use it when it's available as supporting material, but I have seen people run into problems with it when they rely on it as the sole or the main basis for their typings (which is tempting to do, in light of how much of a shortcut it offers). VI is not an exactly reliable method because there are other aspects to a personality that impart external similarities (e.g. ethnicity, similarities in complexion). Thus, when two people look alike and remind of each other it's not a given that they have the same socionics type. I've been compared to Kristen Stewart, for example, by a number of different people who know me irl, yet her type is in entirely another quadra. That shows how misleading V.I. can be if it's used on its own or given too much weight in typing.

    It's also rather strange to see Vi attributed to Se/Te and Gamma quadra. I've used it plenty of times myself and used to include a number of photographs along with my typings, and have witnessed both beta and delta members of this forum discussing body language and using visual material in support of their typing arguments - obvs not a gamma thing.
    Last edited by silke; 09-28-2016 at 04:53 AM.

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    I see @Maritsa voted "VI can be used to determine type from facial expressions, not physical appearance" ...does that mean you don't determine type by J-necks etc. anymore?

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    Kill4Me's Avatar
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    I've been compared to Kristen Stewart, for example, by people who know me irl, yet in socionics she is my conflictor or superego. That shows how misleading V.I. can be if it's used on its own or given too much weight in typing.
    I'm sure it would just take a more expert eye to see the difference between you and Kristen Stewart.
    Just because somebody knows you doesn't mean they will have that expertise.

  13. #13
    Humanist Maritsa's Avatar
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    I meant to chose the first choice...sorry
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
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    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  14. #14
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    sometimes there is nothing principially wrong with the technique yet no individual practitioner is capable of leveraging it to positive effect.

  15. #15
    rob timidly hacim's Avatar
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    True. To a point, I'd liken it to some of the horrifyingly shallow typing methods on MBTI forums, like "if your room is clean then you're obviously a J." Stuff like that, while there can be correlations, I call BS on.

  16. #16
    yeves's Avatar
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    i think it's valid to guess someone's personality from the way they look (we all unconsciously judge others on their looks). how much of that can be related to socionics type is not apparent to me. someone with more vi experience can answer this.

  17. #17
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    I know this is an old thread, but I think VI is extremely accurate, including actual physical characteristics rather than just mannerisms, if you know what you're doing.

  18. #18
    Haikus 666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    I know this is an old thread, but I think VI is extremely accurate, including actual physical characteristics rather than just mannerisms, if you know what you're doing.
    well then theoretically the physical characteristics should develop in response to mannerisms.. so I guess you're looking at facial wrinkles or something. sounds reliable.

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    Haikus 666's Avatar
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    eyes give a significant amount of data, socionics or no. but I'll never be convinced that bone structure results from personality. phrenologist idiots

  20. #20
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    Sometimes it works, by face expression and body language.
    “When it gets down to it, when you’re drowning, you don’t say, ‘I would be incredibly pleased if someone would have the foresight to notice me drowning and come and help me,’ you just scream.”

    468

  21. #21
    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666 View Post
    eyes give a significant amount of data, socionics or no. but I'll never be convinced that bone structure results from personality. phrenologist idiots
    I have two younger sisters. When we were kids, the youngest one looked like she could be my twin. Our bone structures are nearly identical. However, she is LII and I am LIE. For some reason, I can instantly tell that she is an Alpha, and I look like a fairly typical Gamma LIE-Te.

    I'm pretty sure the difference between us is in how the facial muscles are used, both instantly and over a long time period.

    I think VI can be extremely accurate, if the person doing the visual identification has a large data base of individual type characteristics with which to compare. For example, I know and feel that I can identify the following types well because I have spent a lot of time around them:
    SLI, LIE, LII, ILI, LSE, IEI, LSI, SLE, ESI, ILE, and to a lesser extent IEE, EII, SEE.
    Types which are much harder, or impossible, for me to identify visually are SEI, ESE, and EIE, because I have almost no real-world experience with them.

  22. #22
    وزير‎‎ lungs's Avatar
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    I see it as one clue among others. It's not like we're determining blood type here. Anybody who says they can be certain about someone with a glance is either delusional or trying to garner unfounded trust and admiration from you.

  23. #23
    Shiver's Avatar
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    A method that is not presented in a falsifiable way is something I'm not inclined to find truly useful. I see people here love to go on and on...and on...with "looks this", "looks that", "looks [type]" and that is literally all of the substance that there is presented of the process. Most people, when probed, can't even explain any kind of association of an element to the physical stereotype they're presumably basing their claim on, outside of seeing someone else do it prior. A conclusion is made based on a quick look at a person and everything from that point is rationalized after the fact.

    Look at the above. Does Adam actually recognize those types, or has he simply come to erroneously believe that he can and has constructed an elaborate web of false typings and biased observations which are ultimately to blame for later social problems when attempting to apply his findings to real people? How can we know?

    Those of you who answered "yes" in any form to the question posed by this thread: Nobody has any reason to believe that you can accurately type from VI until you're able to provide a satisfactory method, the results of which correlate positively with actual typings. Necessarily, it means those typings need to be demonstrated with a solid case also.

  24. #24
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    I think all the patterns I've noticed are falsifiable. In the other thread, where I said that Rupert Sheldrake looks like an ENFj and Terrence McKenna like INFp, that's largely based on EIEs seeming to universally have wider and square jaws and INFp having narrow and tapered (but still more angular) ones aside from just the way of carrying themselves and gaze. How is that not concrete?

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    I see it as one clue among others. It's not like we're determining blood type here. Anybody who says they can be certain about someone with a glance is either delusional or trying to garner unfounded trust and admiration from you.
    Then I must be delusional, because I don't give a rat's ass if someone trusts or admires me.

    And yet, I really do believe I can guess some people's type from a glance. And I think I'm getting better at it with practice and experience.
    But maybe I'm just stuck in a delusion.
    Maybe this is all a dream? Maybe we're stuck in between dimensions, and only resolve into being when the.....er, no. That's an ILE. Sorry about that.

  26. #26
    وزير‎‎ lungs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Then I must be delusional, because I don't give a rat's ass if someone trusts or admires me.

    And yet, I really do believe I can guess some people's type from a glance. And I think I'm getting better at it with practice and experience.
    But maybe I'm just stuck in a delusion.
    Maybe this is all a dream? Maybe we're stuck in between dimensions, and only resolve into being when the.....er, no. That's an ILE. Sorry about that.
    I already knew you were delusional.

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    Adam Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
    A method that is not presented in a falsifiable way is something I'm not inclined to find truly useful. I see people here love to go on and on...and on...with "looks this", "looks that", "looks [type]" and that is literally all of the substance that there is presented of the process. Most people, when probed, can't even explain any kind of association of an element to the physical stereotype they're presumably basing their claim on, outside of seeing someone else do it prior. A conclusion is made based on a quick look at a person and everything from that point is rationalized after the fact.

    Look at the above. Does Adam actually recognize those types, or has he simply come to erroneously believe that he can and has constructed an elaborate web of false typings and biased observations which are ultimately to blame for later social problems when attempting to apply his findings to real people? How can we know?

    Those of you who answered "yes" in any form to the question posed by this thread: Nobody has any reason to believe that you can accurately type from VI until you're able to provide a satisfactory method, the results of which correlate positively with actual typings. Necessarily, it means those typings need to be demonstrated with a solid case also.
    Shiver, I can't give you a perfect definition of a table, or a "game", but I know them when I see them.

    I don't actually care about pinning down a definition so well that it can be universally applied, or so that it can be falsified. I'm not a Ti valuer. I merely wish to be sure enough of my conclusions, often enough, to be able to accomplish my goals of the moment. I'm happy with that.

    Now, I think it very likely that types exist, and so have correlations with things which are testable and verifiable, but I don't think the state of the art has advanced to the point where we can draw unequivocal conclusions yet, so we'll have to be satisfied with some degree of uncertainty. I guess I'm just comfortable with a higher level of uncertainty, and the possibility of mis-typing people, than most.

  28. #28
    Haikus 666's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
    A method that is not presented in a falsifiable way is something I'm not inclined to find truly useful. I see people here love to go on and on...and on...with "looks this", "looks that", "looks [type]" and that is literally all of the substance that there is presented of the process. Most people, when probed, can't even explain any kind of association of an element to the physical stereotype they're presumably basing their claim on, outside of seeing someone else do it prior. A conclusion is made based on a quick look at a person and everything from that point is rationalized after the fact.

    Look at the above. Does Adam actually recognize those types, or has he simply come to erroneously believe that he can and has constructed an elaborate web of false typings and biased observations which are ultimately to blame for later social problems when attempting to apply his findings to real people? How can we know?

    Those of you who answered "yes" in any form to the question posed by this thread: Nobody has any reason to believe that you can accurately type from VI until you're able to provide a satisfactory method, the results of which correlate positively with actual typings. Necessarily, it means those typings need to be demonstrated with a solid case also.
    good points, but the error is with the notion of "actual typings" since they're theoretical and obviously quite mutable

  29. #29
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    No, they're not (highly) mutable if they're real. That's the entire point.

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    If you "type" someone via VI, it can't be considered a valid typing until you have typed the individual through some form of psychometric assessment and found a match. It can never be considered of primary significance when typing someone. In addition, there is the danger of your initial impressions clouding your attempt to type via psychometric assessments (which should ideally be an independent analysis).
    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    I think all the patterns I've noticed are falsifiable. In the other thread, where I said that Rupert Sheldrake looks like an ENFj and Terrence McKenna like INFp, that's largely based on EIEs seeming to universally have wider and square jaws and INFp having narrow and tapered (but still more angular) ones aside from just the way of carrying themselves and gaze. How is that not concrete?
    I could see taking that approach, though I'd feel inclined to measure and compare them somehow due to their inevitably being people who will exist somewhere in the middle.

  32. #32
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If you "type" someone via VI, it can't be considered a valid typing until you have typed the individual through some form of psychometric assessment and found a match. It can never be considered of primary significance when typing someone. In addition, there is the danger of your initial impressions clouding your attempt to type via psychometric assessments (which should ideally be an independent analysis).
    VI should definitely not be the only thing you use, and not even the first, but typing everyone through personality quizzes in real life situations is very, very impractical.

  33. #33
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
    I could see taking that approach, though I'd feel inclined to measure and compare them somehow due to their inevitably being people who will exist somewhere in the middle.
    For whatever reason the site isn't letting me append this to my other post. While there are definitely concrete, measurable features rather than just "vibes" or whatever, there is definitely a family resemblance type aspect to physical features, as opposed to the much more well-defined mannerisms. I think the middle people are the Creative types.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Shiver, I can't give you a perfect definition of a table, or a "game", but I know them when I see them.
    Here you go...

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/table?s=t

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/game?s=t

    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






  35. #35
    𝕱𝖔𝖓𝖙 𝕷𝖎𝖇𝖊𝖗𝖙𝖆𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓 Verbrannte's Avatar
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    Aylen, you're aware that a game is exactly what Wittgenstein used to define the concept of a family resemblance, right? And dictionaries don't actually tell you the meaning of a word, but the usage, and not very well at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schildmaid View Post
    Aylen, you're aware that a game is exactly what Wittgenstein used to define the concept of a family resemblance, right? And dictionaries don't actually tell you the meaning of a word, but the usage, and not very well at that.
    I think you missed the point of my response. I enjoy poking at Adam sometimes and he probably has come to expect it. He has never told me to stop. His example seemed silly to me. A 3 year old can give a perfect description of a game or a table.

    Wittgenstein does not dictate my view of the world and neither does any other philosopher or guru. I may find things useful but if I have a different perception I will make my own associations of what connects human beings or all of consciousness. Some people believe in soul families. Others believe in socionics. I am able to cross concepts and make correlations on my own.

    Each person is unique regardless of similarity/resemblance. I look like my mom (LSI) but I don't process information like her. Some have said I look like my EII sister in many ways and we have been asked if we are twins even though there is a three year difference. I don't process like her either, although we share some similar beliefs. If they took each of us in as a whole instead of focusing on parts they might think we looked nothing alike.

    When I am sitting next to my ESE sister people have stared at us and commented how alike we look. We actually do when you look at us as a whole but when you get down to the individual features they don't match up but if you look at a pic of us side by side and take in the big picture, we look remarkably similar. Way more than my EII sister and I.

    I think if there is something to VI no one has truly been able to articulate it in a way that everyone can understand it objectively. It should be that simple but instead I have seen various VI methods that contradict each even if they seem plausible at first. Some are just downright ridiculous. I have been compared to people, visually, in various threads but when I look at them I see perhaps a feature or two that is similar yet when I look at them as a whole, they look nothing like me. VI, at this point, is just as subjective as vibes and probably less accurate. I trust my "vibes" more but doesn't mean I don't look deeper into the way others type by VI.

    We are all snowflakes on some level.
    http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/health/unique-body-parts/

    But on the unseen level of existence/nonexistence we are probably more connected than any human mind can truly fathom.

    This is just my opinion. I know others opinions will contradict mine. I am prepared for it. That's how it goes...

    Just out of
    curiosity if 99 out of 100 betas typed you gamma or delta, based on your VI, but you felt like a beta on every level of your being, who would you trust, yourself or them? I know how I would answer that. No one here knows how I process information except myself. If switched cognition with some people, they would feel like an alien. I am sure of that just from feedback I have received over the years.

    Anyway I like to use a dictionary when someone tells me that they cannot give the definition of a "table". He was not being metaphorical in his wording so I feel like I did him a service if he was being serious. If he was just being woo woo then that's fine. Cigar, table, cigar whatever...

    "Something inexpressively lovely and wonderful advances through the crystal, nearer, nearer. And, oh, inexpressively terrifying. For if it were to touch you, if it were to seize you and engulf you, you'd die; all the regular, habitual daily part of you would die … one would have to begin living arduously in the quiet, arduously in some strange, unheard of manner."


     






  37. #37
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    I voted for facial expression, but I'm talking about video/dynamic VI. Very often I can get a good sense of someone's type *in person* based on comparing their body language and other mannerisms to people I've already typed. That doesn't mean it should be used as an argument though, because everyone's experience is different.

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    يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا

    O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another.

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    There is a problem of what VI is. Ganin popularized this neologism and used physiognomy for typing, while it's heresy from theory's point and not the mainstream in Socionics. The other thing - many ones still think photos are good for typing, while compared to video they are much lesser useful.
    If to use VI as typing by visual materials, to use IRL typing and video-interviews for typing, - it's effective and obligate part of common typings. It's not rare when people use intuitive impressions in typing, while nonverbal data is main source for them. It's not reasonable to type missing this useful part of info.

    Facial expressions is not the only way to use VI. J/P dichotomy can be assumed by how people move.

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