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Thread: show me the "awareness of how the world really is"

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    Default show me the "awareness of how the world really is"

    hi

    Polly: "He definately seems far more judgmental and sees things in a far more black and white fashion than I do. I found I liked his ideas and found them interesting but all faulted in some major way because they lacked a certain awareness of how the world really is."

    Polly was right; intj does seem to unaware of what the world really is. I admire how she described her ex intj so accurately.

    I am big intj myself, people told me I am “unaware of the world really is” several times in my life. Since Polly shown that she knew what the world really is, now I ask everyone to contribute and tell me what the world really is.

    The reason that I ask this question is just that I want to know it, how can something so obvious to the E, but a mystery to intj? Why does most enfp mix the social circle so early and I have trouble understand the human relationship? I want to use this opportunity to learn something and improve myself.

    Ps: polly and other, I used MS WORD to type this post, so I hope there is no grammatical mistake.

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    I'm told this all the time too, three times yesterday alone.

    I guess I don't understand what I apparently don't understand.

    People are vauge with their explanations, so I continue the way I am without changing and don't think about it again until they complain again.

    Help would indeed be nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    I'm told this all the time too, three times yesterday alone.

    I guess I don't understand what I apparently don't understand.

    People are vauge with their explanations, so I continue the way I am without changing and don't think about it again until they complain again.

    Help would indeed be nice.
    The world is round...sorta Extra tips come at $3.99 per letter (a lesson in capitalism, grasshoppa!).

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    I had a conversation with an INTj yesterday. He kept talking about how he needed to figure out the reason for the things that happened to him. I advised focusing on the present and the future instead of worrying about the past. It was useless.
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    Ah, maybe that's what sets me apart from the rest....

    The last 4 years of my life have been an intensive study of how the world works, especially with a vivid display of relationships and other interpersonal interactions.


    There was a time when I was really out of it, though... it was a complete lack of :te: on my part, and all subjective knowledge. Really don't know how I got out of it (not that I am a whole lot different now, but I feel much different), but it was an interesting process. Essentially, I put a lot of my views and thoughts out in the open, and they were critiqued by various sources, but also, I could just SEE the impact of my thoughts, and how they affected the reality around them. It was a vivid experience.

    Like I said before in another thread, (in general)

    There seems to be (at least) two stages of


    One where you are oblivious to yourself, and things are just a matter of subjectivness

    The other is where you understand what is and what it does, and how it opperates, and how it affects your life (specifically the subjectiveness). Once you are aware of this, like anything else, you become conscious of it and then gain more control over it.




    So to me, it makes sense that someone might be aware of how they use their leading function, and in this case, that a might not know he is . You don't 'recognize it', because you grew up that way, that is your default setting. But I think if you are able to step back and gain some sort of awareness of your default settings - biological programmings, THEN you really get to make choices, be proactive, and be productive towards one end. I think, as I said in the "Two stages of thread", that this sort of awareness is PRECIOUSLY IMPORTANT to types, because more so than anyone else, we MUST be responsible for our paradigm of the world, and updating and keeping it accurate.

    You cannot tell is wrong, essentially (unless it really sincerely wants to know), so it is very, very important that takes responsibility for having a reasonable/working view of the world around you. Isn't our pesonal knowldege function? Then I suggest spending time with some people to at least understand what that funciton feels like or looks like and acts like. Also, helps a lot, because that is a very practical, very real, very 'now' sort of awareness, and that is not so friendly for INTjs.


    So I suggets taking learning experience with and people, for one. That, and just be real about the world --- seek to understand ethics, emotion, and so fourth. Make socionics a valuable learning experience. Learn about "the whole person paradigm", if you will. (Covey's Habit books). Stuff like that.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    I had a conversation with an INTj yesterday. He kept talking about how he needed to figure out the reason for the things that happened to him. I advised focusing on the present and the future instead of worrying about the past. It was useless
    That's odd since most INTjs are generally forward thinkers. I suppose he decided to do some regressive thinking in his doubt and anxiety.

    I am big intj myself, people told me I am “unaware of the world really is” several times in my life. Since Polly shown that she knew what the world really is, now I ask everyone to contribute and tell me what the world really is.
    What do you mean "how the real world is?" Do you mean how the real world is perceived or how the real world exists? From what I've noticed, when people tell me I am "unaware of what the world really is" what they mean to say is I am "unaware of what is expected in the world."

    INTjs concern themselves with taking in a large assortment of input in order to organize and bring logical order to the system. So, I think that INTjs are aware about how the world is, but are generally focused on a larger, and ironically enough, global or universal scale. In addition, since most types concern themselves with the present and INTjs are concerned with future possibilities, it is bound to create a sort of tension as to what the world really "is."
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    That's odd since most INTjs are generally forward thinkers. I suppose he decided to do some regressive thinking in his doubt and anxiety.
    INTjs like that need to get shipped back to the factory

    needs to be thinking outside of yourself, not inside!
    I think, basically, an INTj must be future orientated. Otherwise the energy won't be going very well, and stagnation is too likely
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    A good example of what I meant was an INTj and ENTp coming to blows over opinion during a hypothetical conversation about implementing an INTj designed system to improve all of humanity.... (ok granted, this is an extreme example but it proves my point):

    INTj: Explains a system which will solve all the world's problems that he's put an intense amount of thought into. Logically, he knows the things to provide a nurturing environment to the people. So in his model, he provides through the system all the necessities of life and removes thought from those who may, if allowed, screw up this finely tuned system. In his head, he's thought of it all.

    ENTp: Eeek! I hear that and I think of all the examples throughout history where governments have attempted to do this and the result. In times of hardship it leaves individuals helpless to help themselves. It makes people completely reliant on a system for things which they themselves are quite capable of doing.

    What about culture? Where is it in this system of sameness?

    INTj: But the system is in essence perfect so these hardships just won't happen. Culture is sort of a state of mind thing and not really necessary for people to function. If there was all one culture that would reduce cultural conflicts.

    ENTp: Eeek!! Nothing is permanent and there will always be threats to the system. Even if it was a perfect system, people would fight against it. It would take away personal freedom and people value that. It may not prioritize the wants and needs of all individuals from their perspective.

    Someone trying to rob me of my culture is enough for ME to fight against his system. He would infact be creating a HUGE cultural conflict by attempting to tell people that their culture was unimportant enough to preserve while imposing another one on them.

    Forced assimiliation of other races/cultures into another one has not been truly successful to date. The miniority always suffers and they don't just "get over it".

    INTj: I would ensure it would encompass all the wants and needs of all individuals

    ENTp: That's impossible with the direct conflicts over what some people want. I can see a system soley for administration but not this Big Brother system monitoring and telling us how we are to live.

    His system might work if the entire world was made up of sheep. But its not. He would be denying those the same freedoms he has had in life in order to develop systems in the first place.

    It came across as though only the elite would guide the masses, despite that elite not really being in a position to truly understand their needs.

    In the end...he thinks he can still work on his system. He still thinks its a good idea.

    In the end ....I think it should be scrapped because its a system that shouldn't even exist. I see it as something that will hamper human development and evolution.

    I think he's being completely unrealistic and idealistic as to how people will react to his system. He expects them to react in a completely logical manner and agree with his opinion. People do not behave that way in the real world.

    edit: OH I just thought of something else that might be related to this. We would argue over "right". His opinion was there was only one answer that was the 'best' solution to solve a problem.

    I disagree and so would many. Its where that saying comes from, "there is more than one way to skin a cat". There are usually several answers to solutions which could be termed as right it just depends what you value as an outcome. As to whether that outcome is good or bad, depends on your opinion.

    I kind of feel that he applied the mathematical philosophy of one right answer to situations where it didn't apply.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    In the end...he thinks he can still work on his system. He still thinks its a good idea.

    In the end ....I think it should be scrapped because its a system that shouldn't even exist. I see it as something that will hamper human development and evolution.

    I think he's being completely unrealistic and idealistic as to how people will react to his system. He expects them to react in a completely logical manner and agree with his opinion. People do not behave that way in the real world.
    Yeah, I get your viewpoint.

    But I think 'concepts' like that aren't so bad. Granted, he probably need to "get real" about a lot of things, but I'm for a more global unity. The manners and means, though - that is the fun/hard stuff to work out.

    I think he just needs to be around people more. Maybe go to Africa for a bit -- if he's really serious about helping the world, and not just talking theoretically. If he's just shooting the theoretical bull with you, then it's pointless. But if he is serious about it, he needs more and more experience to test out his things in reality.


    He's using to start from a point and work up and out, but his point isn't low enough, not encompasing enough. Not complete enough. He isn't incorperating all that there is. I have problems doing that at times, but I try to be aware of it.

    In this way, it is essential for an INTj -- if he really wants to make change or progress -- to be around others and learn to reconfigure his views. When it comes to a choice between helping out others and being right -- if he just chooses to be right, then all his other paradigms will be off. If he really wants to help others, then I think you have to lose some of what you originally had in mind. The eastern sayings come to mind now --- "if you go in with a full cup, you won't be able to learn anything. Humility, to empty your cup"

    But an INTj will probably be a proud man with proud thoughts. Again, though, it's a matter of what is more important. Use that pride to support a truer, real-er paradigm, and maybe he can actually do something a that will impact more people.



    To close this post, I am reminded of a Kant quote I really like: "Reason does not create its laws from nature, but dictates them to her.". I know that might be sort of, but I think it is true. If an INTj can learn to incorperate stuff like that into his views, and then base his possibilities and ideas off of somehing that is more true, then real progress can be made.

    That's how I feel 'bout it.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    This is the suprising part, he is actually around people quite a bit. He has people popping into his place all the time. As a teenager he left home and hitchiked across Canada with no money; living and meeting all sorts of different people. He's done a lot of travelling and lived in Australia for a couple of years.

    I'm wondering if maybe it has more to do with, despite all his travels...there are probably few who he can have these theoretical discussions with and get feedback. As you very well know, a great majority of people do not care about this kind of stuff.

    Also, I'm not sure how an INTj is but I know if someone doesn't respect the opinions of those around them, they are less likely to take their feedback seriously. If an INTj was kind of elitest about his intelligence I would imagine it would be very diificult for him to accept feedback.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    Default Re: show me the "awareness of how the world really is&q

    Quote Originally Posted by Fry
    I am big intj myself
    LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly
    Also, I'm not sure how an INTj is but I know if someone doesn't respect the opinions of those around them, they are less likely to take their feedback seriously. If an INTj was kind of elitest about his intelligence I would imagine it would be very diificult for him to accept feedback.
    Exactly. An INTj or anyone else for that matter can talk and interpret and socilalize and experience, but that doesn't mean it will actually impact that person. Especailly someone with . In fact, can warp stuff so that it further strengthes itself and its views, becoming even more uncompromising, etc. And not only that, but LOVES to be uncompromising. I know I sure do. That's why I like to hit that ass strong! Yeah I know, I threw that in there for fun. As I was saying, though, won't change unless it wants to

    I wish I could remember the link for where I saw this, but, basically, the only way to really get in touch with once it has gotten into a state of great uncompromising-ness is through close personal associations, essentially, and that is what happened with me in my situation, and it lead to a little enlightenment.


    But keep in mind, any person, especially , won't change their views unless they want to change them. An Elitist INTj is horrible in this regard, because if you have a fundementally flawed pespective/foundation, then everything else will be slightly skewed. (I have memories of such experiences)
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    It just struck me how our above two posts are an example of how ENTps/INTjs work so well together. I'm good at coming up with ideas and concepts which are at the extroverted intuition level but if you asked me things like why or how I know what I know.....I can't really provide you with the details.

    However, an INTj can back up my thoughts with a detailed explanation that is very logical.

    I can only provide it in its simplified form, that level of detail is more difficult for me. It would require a level of effort for me that I'm not interested in exerting to focus on any one thing. Its like I have a little mind reader to spew out my thoughts in a way people will believe me. While I think the INTj appreciates I even have the thoughts I do.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    I see what you mean.

    I suppose I rather enjoy giving body to something, backing it up, etc. Helping people make structure of something. ......

    (I guess I understand more of the rational alpha duality, hmm...)
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly
    edit: OH I just thought of something else that might be related to this. We would argue over "right". His opinion was there was only one answer that was the 'best' solution to solve a problem.

    I disagree and so would many. Its where that saying comes from, "there is more than one way to skin a cat". There are usually several answers to solutions which could be termed as right it just depends what you value as an outcome. As to whether that outcome is good or bad, depends on your opinion.

    I kind of feel that he applied the mathematical philosophy of one right answer to situations where it didn't apply.
    lol, polly. Everything you said in the posts are perfectly matched to my personality annd behaviour. In my intj mind, before i do anything i would think what's the RIGHT thing to do, regardless any emotion, moral, survival. I think the right thing is some action that would result "better" consequence. i will give some examples later.

    Polly, how do you make your decisions? What criteria do your decsion base on?

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    At Polly:
    It seems that I'm the one that shoots down ideas for unfeasability. I dislike ideas like that, perhaps because I don't like being controlled. From what you've written (and what I've read) I wouldn't base my opinion on all INTjs on that one guy.


    So this all boils back down to not being able to pay attention to details?
    Dammnit-I'd so hoped that wasn't the case.
    Details are boring.

    I guess theres no getting around it though.
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    And remember two INTjs can be as different as night and day in their views and ideas depending upon what's been thrown their way (people interactions, education, experiences).
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    i would avoid it if i were you. that question ultimately leads you astray from how the world really is imo. once you figure out what they mean you will realize they are pretty much full of crap.

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    That's the thing. So you tell someone, "Okay, I don't know how the world really is." When you ask someone how the "world really is" the world usually ends up being their world view and not necessarily how the "world really is."
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    The more you talk, the more you write, the further from the truth.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Well words define the abstract and give abstract thoughts life. When you speak and write, you are limited to words which have narrow definitions and associated thoughts behind them. While language allows for a means of conveying thought, language also limits and restricts how thought can be conveyed and received. This is where Pedro-the-Lion's mental internet would be incredibly useful.
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    sometimes I even wonder about thought itself. But yes, I agree that a mental internet would at least be a little more effective
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Polly, how do you make your decisions? What criteria do your decsion base on?
    Well firstly, I rarely make decisions that can't be changed later on down the road and I'm open to that change. So I don't maybe put as much pre-thought into it as an INTj might.

    I weigh factors and I will evaluate my decision to ensure none of my personal feelings or biases are included and be open to the fact that despite all my efforts, some of 'me' will still be in that decision.

    I just started realizing I do the above to the extreme though. There are times when my feelings are important and should be included and I'm not including them. Because of this, I can get into situations where I'm quite often being taken advantage of. Just because I don't include my wants and needs doesn't mean other people don't. I end up getting the short end of the stick a lot. I think this is what they mean when they talk about how ENTps sometimes don't use the best discretion in picking friends. I need people around me who don't take advantage of that quality in me plus I need to learn to protect myself more.

    I don't assume every decision I make is the rightest course of action. Whatever course works and meets the needs of the situation will be fine with me. So I guess its more the case of what is right enough to work.

    As for the comment about INTj behavior. Ofcourse INTjs will act different based on their environment and a whole bunch of other factors. But there are some commonalities there or I'd never be able to figure out he was an INTj.

    I find it is helpful though to get feedback from others of a similar type because of the perspective they offer.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP II
    sometimes I even wonder about thought itself. But yes, I agree that a mental internet would at least be a little more effective
    for one it would shed light on the physical impossibility of certain types of intercommunication.

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    for one it would shed light on the physical impossibility of certain types of intercommunication.
    I don't understand what you mean in this statement.
    Polly
    ENTp

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    SOme things cannot be translated / transferred with just words. Etc.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP II
    SOme things cannot be translated / transferred with just words. Etc.
    This however can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polly
    I don't understand what you mean in this statement.
    Some sorts of interaction cancel each other out like matter/anti-matter and the resultant is something that is in a new format. You can cancel out noise by creating anti-frequencies to whatever sounds are coming in and canceling out. There are sophisticated devices built for this purpose. In the same way certain forms of communication seem to produce a chemical reaction in the listener and/or speaker that shift their state so that they no longer are speaking with reference to the original organizational structure of information as this occurs. This is imo what occurs in EF types and is why they contradict themselves without meaning to. Literally their minds have shifted with each sentence that has passed until the person discussing things with you is several shifts away from their original state. In a small way they have become a different person. In the same way this sort of thing occurs in other situations such as when one discourses with oneself, when one represents other objects symbolically, etc. I honestly do not think it is possible for some forms of communication between people to occur without one or both beginning to "mix thoughts" with the other. This in my opinion this destroys one or more personalities involved in conversing. This is why x/0 is so necessary. It will allow for the process by which such things occur to accelerate while providing a catalyst for "personal compression" which would imo bring out a lot of interesting interaction when the person's "true" personality is forced out and pushes against those of others which in turn causes them to react in a similar manner. This raises the individualization per unit area which then allow for further elaboration on the same concept with tensions occuring as a result of the new release of information replacing the old. Really it would have nothing to do with "learning more about oneself and others" or anything like that. It would just accelerate the cycle of "overcrowding >>> pulling away to individuate" which seems to occur in all persons regardless of type.

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