View Poll Results: Joseph Stalin

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    0 0%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    1 6.67%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    11 73.33%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    1 6.67%
  • IEI (INFp)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    0 0%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    1 6.67%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    1 6.67%
  • EII (INFj)

    0 0%
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Thread: Joseph Stalin

  1. #1

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    Default Joseph Stalin

    Wikiquote - Joseph Stalin


    For the good of the cause I need military powers. I have already written about this, but received no response. Very good. In this case, I will myself, without any formalities, overthrow those commanders and commissars who are ruining the cause. So the interests of the cause advise me, and, of course, the lack of a paper from Trotsky won't stop me. — Joseph Stalin

    They say that it is impossible to Communists, especially for the working communist-organizers to master chemical formulas and general technical knowledge. This is not true, comrades. There isn't in the world such castles that couldn't be taken by the workers, by the Bolsheviks.

    Kulacks need to be eliminated as a class.

    The great thing about competition is that it produces a radical change in people's views on labor, for it transforms labor from shameful and heavy burden, as it was considered before, into a matter of honor, a matter of glory, a matter of valor and heroism.

    National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-Semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism. Antisemitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a distraction that draws capitalism away from the blows of the working class. Anti-Semitism is dangerous for the workers as a false path that leads them into the jungle. Therefore, the Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot be anything else but irreconcilable and sworn enemies of anti-Semitism.












    Last edited by silke; 04-29-2016 at 07:44 AM. Reason: updated links

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Stalin ENTJ

    I can't say much about visual identification about Stalin (except he is really a basic example of an ugly guy), but would also like to call Russians and other ex-Soviet company to help us with any information about principles of socionics, even if Stalin is not their favorite subject.

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    That photo, instead of making me think he's an ENTJ, only reinforced my belief that he's an ISTJ.
    If a shoe don't fit, it ain't your shoe!

  4. #4

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    Default Point by point...

    For purposes of visual identification here is a picture of the Finnish ENTJ politician, Jan-Erik Enestam, similarity of the eyes and the salesmanlike smile is quite noticeable.



    In case this piece of evidence did not quite convince everyone there is more, much more, granted largely circumstantial, but it all adds up, piece by piece...

    First I shall discuss a few points raised in favour of the opinion held by most socionists that Stalin was ISTJ. These excerpts are from an open letter by Dmitri Lytov:

    Joseph Stalin. I agree with you about his being TJ (all other American sources say the same); but let me add some more information. The thing I cannot understand is how American typologists arrived at the belief in his extraversion. In fact, he was a model introvert! In spite of his enormous power, he was extremely shy and closed towards people he had to communicate with.

    I do not understand how this misunderstanding can still be so very common, shyness is no evidence of introversion. We have to look at the functions and the person as a whole...

    Leon Trotsky describes this feature in a very colorful way; and what I know is that Trotsky's books are easy to find in the US, so that you can easily disprove or verify my words. He liked to present his own opinion as that generally accepted: he used to say, "there is an opinion" instead of "I think".

    Stalin, at least on a conscious level, did indeed typically start by only listing the facts as they were without his own evaluation. This style of presentation "there is an opinion" corresponds quite closely to extroverted thinking:
    In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else's logic, sequence, or organization.

    EXTROVERTS: open look, lively in communication, active and somewhat superficial curiosity (with no intention to go deeper into the subject), strive to grasp as much as possible, unconstrained gesticulation “from the shoulder on”, quick movements, tendency to dominate in talks and contacts. During conversations extroverts express rather impressions about the things they've seen than evaluate them.

    INTROVERTS: looking “from inside a shell”, alert, reserved behavior and submission in contacts, slowly awaking curiosity (and tendency to deepen into the discussed topic), reserved gesticulation "from the elbow ". They express rather attitudes than facts (I like or dislike; it is normal or abnormal etc.).

    Filatova proposed a simple test: ask a person to write several sentences expressing associations with such words as “city”, “house”, “lake”. An Extrovert will try to make objective characteristics: city – straight streets, multistoried houses, gardens… An Introvert will make remarks like: I do not like a big city, because it is noisy and dirty – in other words, he will rather formulate his attitude.

    http://socioniko.narod.ru/en/article...ov-visual.html


    He spoke rarely and thought a lot. His strategy was not extensive - he persuaded the party to forget about expanding revolution outside Russia and to think about the internal order of the country; unlike Lenin, he did not believe that people outside Russia would gladly meet revolution in their own countries, and relied in this problem only upon weapons.

    This corresponds much more closely to the values of the conservative, "middle-aged" Gamma Quadra than to the youthfully enthusiastic Beta Quadra. This, fatefully false, promise of calmer times with communism in only one country was one major factor that helped Stalin to gain supporters and consolidate his position as the leader of the communist party. Thus this probably also presents evidence of Quadra succession, from the suffering and conquering Beta to the collaborating and acquiring Gamma.


    Another important thing is that he could not be intuitive. Even much more than Lenin he tended to practice more than to pure ideas. He used to say "we people of practice" opposed to "worthless idealists". In the Soviet era, he was glorified as a "great developer of Marxist theory"; in fact, he was incapable of abstract thinking. A good example - Lenin wrote him a memo with a proposal to make a forecast: Stalin was offended by that proposal, and replied "Do you think I am incapable of serious working, if you want me to spend time for such worthless things?"

    - ISTjs are excellent at the detailed, meticulous and careful study of any situation. They are disciplined and responsible people and do not like to waste their words. They aspire to have everything ordered and well organised both at home and at work. They have respect for authority and feel perfectly comfortable obeying established norms and rules. ISTjs do not like any form of disorganisation and irresponsibility.
    http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/istj.htm

    Am I the only one to see a glaring inconsistency?
    There is much better fit if we presume Stalin was ENTJ:

    ENTj's strongest virtue is excellent enterprise where new business ventures and projects are involved. They have a very business-like mind and know well how to adapt any theory or idea for practical use. They do not have time for unimportant and trivial matters, instead they are always attracted to valuable and worthwhile aims and projects. ENTjs could be called people of action as they do not let their plans and goals go unrealised. They quickly and easily take onboard new business proposals trying always to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion.

    ENTjs can be tactless when talking about intimate subjects and insensitive to others feelings. Their humour often has double meaning. When they are in action they can be rude and show bad manners. ENTjs like to keep others attention on themselves.

    http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/entj.htm


    He collected a big library of anti-Soviet literature, but read all books with a narrow practical objective: to detect enemy's weak points.

    Learning by extroverted thinking in order to detect and formulate the weak points by creative introverted intuition.

    Characteristic for his weak abstract thinking is his "friendship" with Hitler - he did not want to realize Hitler' strive for expansion; he only noticed similarity of two regimes. He was suspicious to people around him and used to say "a man - a problem, no man - no problem".
    http://www.socionics.org/theory/dl_letter.html

    I am afraid Dmitri Lytov is once again skating on thin ice, where is the hard evidence of his type?


    An ENTJ mind
    Of Stalin there would be nothing to say if he had not been summoned, for the first time, to a Bolshevik Conference at Tammerfors. "Summoned," for he could not be strictly speaking the delegate of a Menshevik organisation. It was then that he really made acquaintance with Lenin. No minutes of the Conference exist, and there is no mention of any part, or any speech of his. In his recollections on Lenin he makes some characteristic comments.

    I met Lenin for the first time in December 1905 at the Bolshevik Conference at Tammerfors, in Finland. I expected to see the mountain eagle of our Party a great man, not only politically but physically, for I had formed for myself a picture of Lenin as a giant, a fine figure of a man. What was my disappointment when I saw the most ordinary looking individual, below middle height, distinguished from ordinary mortals by nothing, literally nothing. A great man is permitted to be generally late at meetings so that those present may be apprehensive at his non-arrival, and so that before the great man's appearance there may be cries of "Hush—silence—he is coming." This ceremony seemed to me useful for it creates respect. What was my disappointment to find that Lenin had arrived before the delegates and was carrying on the most ordinary conversation, with the most ordinary delegate, in a corner.

    He continues in the same tone, on the same level, in the same sense. The reader is none the wiser for it. The matter, worthy of the style, requires no comment. One wonders how Koba could have won Lenin's esteem but for the fact that he was able to render remarkable service and to show his real capacity during the years following the 1905 Revolution, years of political reaction and socialist retrogression.

    http://www.marxists.org/history/etol...talin/ch03.htm

    This kind of high regard for the external appearance would be much more understandable if we presume that Stalin was ENTJ with extroverted sensing as the sixth function, hidden agenda - and so would many other peculiar features of Stalin's conduct as the Soviet leader: the cult of personality, inclination to take sadistic pleasure at persecuting his enemies - both real and imaginary, even his choise of revolutionary name, first Koba:

    A very big inspiration in Stalin's life came from a novel called The Patricide by a Georgian nationalist
    writer named Alexander Kazbegi. His favorite character in The Patricide was called Koba, a heroic
    figure who avenged the death of his friends and fought the powers that oppressed him. This affirmed
    Stalin's idea that vengeance was the most noble cause to devote his life to. He also started going by the
    name of Koba, instead of Soso, because that character had effected him so much.


    and then Stalin:

    The name Stalin, meaning 'man of steel', was adopted in 1910. By taking on a Russian name, it was a way of disassociating himself with his Georgian heritage. Stalin had a disrespect
    and hatred for the weak, and Georgia had always been occupied by another nation, meaning that it was
    weak for never being able to be independent. (This hatred for the weak also accounted for Stalin's
    anti-Semitism). Also, by choosing a Russian sounding name with an -in ending, this was a way for Stalin
    to compare himself to his idol Lenin.

    http://www.dickinson.edu/~history/di..._dictator.html

  5. #5
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    Just bring up the "Purge" and I believe nearly any Russian would be embarrassed(SP) to have had such a representative.

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    Default Stalin

    J.W. Stalin
    The Leader and Teacher of Mankind in the Struggle for Peace, Democracy and Socialism.




    According to my, granted pretty limited, experience with Russians, most (young) Russians think of him mainly as the man who industrialized Russia, and above all, defeated the Nazis, and his crimes against humanity - including but not limited to his own people - tend to be overlooked or even forgiven - roughly: "Great men have great flaws". Russians also have their own school of history that is consistently somewhat different from the more fact based western historians. During communism everything had to be interpreted "to the greater glory of the Soviet Union", and most people still seem to prefer the beautified propaganda version over the grayer shades of reality:

    The Hymn of the Soviet Union

    Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,
    Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
    Created in struggle by will of the people,
    United and mighty, our Soviet land!

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    Through tempests the sunrays of freedom have cheered us,
    Along the new path where great Lenin did lead.
    To a righteous cause he raised up the peoples,
    Inspired them to labor and valorous deed.
    [Or, the old way:
    Be true to the people, thus Stalin has reared us,
    Inspire us to labor and valorous deed!]

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    In the vict'ry of Communism's deathless ideal,
    We see the future of our dear land.
    And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
    Selflessly true we always shall stand

    http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/russ...sovnateng.html

    Of course this is just my biased Finnish perspective, and there are certainly many Russians who are willing to face the truth that Stalin was no less evil than Hitler, but it does seem to be clearly a minority opinion.
    I typed Stalin as ENTJ earlier. Then I went looking for further evidence but could not find much, I was particularly hoping to discover new socionics intertype relations, but it is difficult...
    My case for typing Stalin ENTJ is here. All comments are welcome.

  7. #7

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    Stalin and Hitler divided Eastern Europe in the Molotov-Ribbentrob Pact that gave Hitler the confidence to attack Poland and thus launch the WWII. This pact gave Finland to Russian "sphere of interest" and allowed Russia to attack Finland on 30 November 1939, thereby starting the Winter War that lasted until 13 March 1940.
    After that Finland joined Nazi-Germany in the "Operation Barbarossa" or "the Great Patriotic War" mainly in order to regain the territories lost in the previous peace treaty. It is all complicated and controversial, through the centuries Finland has fought many wars against Russia, hopefully never again. If you are interested you can easily google quite a lot on Finnish history in English, for example here:
    http://www.winterwar.com/
    Or the semi-official propaganda pages here:
    http://virtual.finland.fi/History

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    ISTJ.
    http://forum.socionix.com

    I don't see what's so important about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's just more people to declare war on.

    EVERYONE PLZ CONTINUE TO UPLOAD INFINITE AMOUNT OF PICS OF "CUTE" CATS AND PUPPIES. YOU KNOW WE GIVE A SHIT!!

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    Default Re: Point by point...

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Hi Curious. Stalin is not ENTJ. I'm an ENTJ and I
    can see it immediately.
    Thank you. About time somebody started dissecting my posts. You could actually be right, and I am probably the only one to claim that Stalin was an ENTJ. The dominant opinion in socionics is clearly that Stalin was an ISTJ, and this is very much possible... I wrote the post in a bit of haste and for a moment I already thought I would concede this one for you. Then I came to have second thoughts. The evidence on Stalin's type is clearly split, but there are a number of reasons that seem to lend support to ENTJ rather than to ISTJ...

    The fact that you are an ENTJ does certainly add weight to your comments, and it is a pleasure to finally have one representative of your type here too. I may have occasionally written rather critically about ENTJs, but to be honest ENTJs are on average exceptionally well-adjusted and outstanding citizens, and perhaps indeed ENTJ is the type best adapted to the demands of the modern world.

    On the other hand whatever type Stalin had, he was a highly exceptional individual with some paranoid tendencies that make typing him more difficult than most ordinary people. It is of course easy to see how you are different from Stalin, but what I would really like to hear is somebody telling me how he is exactly like Stalin. An inside view on the workings of the paranoid dictatorial mind, if you will. I already thought about writing a similar post about Michael Jackson trying to explain how his weirdness and rather perverted peculiarities make most sense when viewed from an INFJ point of view, but then I realized there really is not enough hard evidence, and all his pedophilia nonwithstanding he may not be truely evil enough to set a good example for other "typologists" to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Neither Enestam or Stalin have a salesman's smile. ENTJ never have one. An ENTJ can hardly make a drowning man believe that the life jacket he's offering isn't filled with lead. Note the tautness of the muscles in mr Enestam's face. An ENTJ smile is forced and manic. Stalin's smile I'd call predatory, like a happy lion with a stomach full of peasants. It's self-satisfied. There is none of the mockery that is typical for ENTJs.
    The Enestam example was a bit tongue in cheek. He is a very dynamic personality who fits the classic ENTJ profile very well. Then again I do not have any external authority to back up my claim. Even the MBTI tends to be pretty marginal in Finland and I have not noticed any Finnish celebrities who would have disclosed their MBTI type. Your science of smiling is very interesting. I have been trying to analyze the same issue, but so far with limited succes. At the stage the picture was taken Stalin was far from an omnipotent dictator, just an unknown aspiring revolutionary who did not even merit much police attention.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    An ENTJ is not shy or closed. It's commonly acknowledged that an ENTJ will talk to anyone openly about anything. Extroverts also tend to dominate conversations as you correctly quote in another point.
    This does follow from Gulenko's type description, and in most cases undoubtedly this is also correct, but I would still dare claim that not all ENTJs are that openly communicative, and let us remember the type descriptions ENTJ, logical subtype (from this forum).

    Logical subtype produces the impression of mobile, but strict and efficient person. Its face is not very emotional. Loves to look directly, into the support, izuchayushche. View for a long time is fixed on the collocutor or the objects. It is a little shy, although he tries to hide this. There is is somewhat it is distrustful, critical and superfluously categorical.
    oldforumlinkviewtopic-40.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    I understand how you might think it so, but you're overestimating the quadra aspect. A quadra spirit is very general. An ENFP of the senile delta quadra is quite mercurial and childish. An INTJ of the youthful alphas is an arch-conservative. Stalin's conservativeness fits with him being a rational-introvert and also with a common ST attribute: nihilism. An ENTJ will always have a grande design, something great that he believes in and will sacrifice all for. An ENTJ Stalin would have been a true believer of the communist revolution, actively courted an alliance with Britain and US immediately after Hitler came to power and attacked Germany by 1937.
    The quadra aspects are difficult to detect and still controversial, so indeed I am speculating as much as I can, but I think they are to large extent really out there. ENFPs, for example, do often appear childlishly enthusiastic but in reality it is all moonshine. There is no real commitment to "the only true movement" and revolutionary spirit of self-sacrifice is nowhere to be seen. It is all just for the pleasure and friendship and in pursuit of selfish interests.

    Stalin's values and politics would fit quite well with Gamma quadra:
    Tempest and onslaught, reorganization. Members wait for timely suppurt in business and lively relations of equality.
    Motto: "Now and here"

    oldforumlinkviewtopic-61.html
    Gamma is the pragmatic quadra set on getting things done - by any means necessary. On the other hand Stalin's policy was to advocate communism in one country - which at the time was the only realistic option - and I believe most of the available evidence supports the view that Stalin really was a true believer in communism and in accordance with the Soviet propaganda saw himself as the only legitimate and loyal follower of Lenin's legacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    It certainly doesn't fit an ENTJ. An ENTJ will gladly throw himself into any task and use it for maximum effect. An ENTJ will often even take tasks that he doesn't like and/or has no aptitude to and think of it as an adventure. Stalin on the other hand clearly didn't think of Lenin as an authority, nor did he think it responsible to waste his talents on something trivial, like intuitive work.
    It would have been very foolish not to acknowledge Lenin's undisputed authority in the communist party during the long years of exile and struggle, to which this incident probably refers to. Why Stalin refused the work is hard to say, but the balls to do it could well fit with ENTJ. Let us remember the infallible socionics.com type description ENTj by function:

    They do not have time for unimportant and trivial matters, instead they are always attracted to valuable and worthwhile aims and projects. ENTjs could be called people of action as they do not let their plans and goals go unrealised.
    http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/entj.htm
    (Are you denying the correctness of this type description? How dare you!!!)


    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    He collected a big library of anti-Soviet literature, but read all books with a narrow practical objective: to detect enemy's weak points.

    Learning by extroverted thinking in order to detect and formulate the weak points by creative introverted intuition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    There is no proof here of intuition. Only about a rational's competitiveness.
    You could be right, thus this incident invalid for the case at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul

    Characteristic for his weak abstract thinking is his "friendship" with Hitler - he did not want to realize Hitler' strive for expansion; he only noticed similarity of two regimes. He was suspicious to people around him and used to say "a man - a problem, no man - no problem".
    http://www.socionics.org/theory/dl_letter.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    That saying doesn't fit into an ENTJ's mouth. Nor does the friendship with Hitler.
    Hmm, it is a bit subjective statement. I am sure it does not fit into the mouths of most ISTJs either. Friendship with Hitler was probably dictated by Stalin's sense of necessity. He felt Soviet Union was not ready for war with Hitler and had more to gain by waiting and building its army and industry than facing a confrontation right away. This could indicate a well developed Intuition of Time Ni Or from the same type description: (I know I am reading this like the devil reads the Bible, but at the very least I want to make a point about the difficulties inherent in typing.)
    Elements of risk do not deter ENTjs, as they are confident and feel able to overcome any difficulties.



    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    I met Lenin for the first time in December 1905 at the Bolshevik Conference at Tammerfors, in Finland. I expected to see the mountain eagle of our Party a great man, not only politically but physically, for I had formed for myself a picture of Lenin as a giant, a fine figure of a man. What was my disappointment when I saw the most ordinary looking individual, below middle height, distinguished from ordinary mortals by nothing, literally nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    This quote by Stalin clearly establishes that he equates power with physical greatness. Very not TE-NI and very TI-SE
    Very not Te-Ni indeed, but I would say that the Ego-Block indicates your strongest functions. This is what you can do well on your own and therefore do not particularly need from others. Or according to the model about the first function:The individual knows what channels exist to obtain authoritative information related to his first function and how to get this kind of information out to other people. The Super-ID Block (5th and 6th) function are what you are subconsciously looking for. Thus ENTJs have Se as their Estimative function, the hidden agenda. Stalin estimated Lenin based on his physical appearence. His mind worked kind of similarly as if he had been evaluating the qualities of his potential girlfriend. ENTJs are subconsciously looking for Fi and Se. Someone steady in their feelings and devotion and capable of defending their loved ones even physically if need be, thus ideally ISFJ. ISTJs again are looking for Fe and Ni, dramatic emotions and compelling intuitive ideas. Lenin failed to fulfill Stalin's expectation that a great leader should have strong Se volitional sensing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    This is utter and complete nonsense. A personality-cult and caring for appearances and popularity are a Fe thing. ENTJ are Fi. ENTJ care nothing next to nothing about how others view them and even less about external appearances or popularity. Sadistic pleasure at predatory deeds is a part of the mind-set of the aggressive ESTP-ISTJ's. Not of the defensive victim-types ENTJ-INTP. An ENTJ who has destroyed an enemy will stop to mourn and honor the victim, maybe even make a very pathetic poem about it. The name that Stalin chose as most important was of course Stalin - Steely. It's a hard, very physical name, again ISTJ. The character Koba, you mentioned is, again, not an ENTJ.
    But let us presume that Stalin was an ENTJ and thus belonged to the Gulenko's Victim types:
    In attitudes with the woman he subconsciously expects orders, dirty tricks, reproaches. ? receiving similar reactions, involuntarily provokes their display.
    One way of interpreting his behavior could be that Stalin subconsciously wanted to test the limits of his power, and even cruelty, in the hope that someone would set the limits for him, but since he was a vengeful omnipotent dictator this did never happen, or those who tried it were quickly swept away...

    But I do think you are into something here. ENTJs do though have Fe as their role function, and role function is usually what people feel they should demonstrate to outside. People do not though tend to be all that passionate about their role function. Let us have a look at +Se the Estimative Function or hidden agenda for ENTJs:

    +Se
    the estimation of the external (form, physical force) and volitional qualities of individual person.
    the skill to defend its personal interests: piercing power, persistence, confidence in itself, hardness.
    the skill to mobilize itself and near environment to achieving personal of the goal presented, volitional pressure from bottom to top with the achievement of the objective.
    tendency toward the retention of the authority: defensive tactics - protection, counterattack.
    leadership (passive) in the small groups, the skill to estimate the arrangement of forces in such groups in the context of the leadership of individual people.
    tendency toward the possession by material values as to attribute of power.
    clear sensation itself and objects in the space, the organic nature of their arrangement: orientation in the specific locality (for example, city).
    tendency toward the journeys (?), lung is overcoming space.
    personal health as institute, force of will.
    insubordination to the external superior forces (dispute), the subordination to itself of weak.
    subordination to internal force.
    http://www.the16types.info/beta1.php?typename=ENTJ

    I think there are several methods people may make use of in order to try to cope with the demands of their hidden agenda. Usually people do try to hide it.

    Every person has a hidden agenda. This agenda often governs one's intentions and behaviour. People are often unaware of its origin, but can always feel its significance. Some people are more affected by it than other people.

    Every type requires an optimal condition in which it can function properly. If such condition does not exist, a person will normally attempt to create it. However, due to the nature of the hidden agenda, if and when the optimal condition is reached, the person will occasionally put themselves in a situation where the stability of this condition is threatened.

    http://www.socionics.com/advan/hiddena.htm

    According to the theory of hidden agendas, I (INTJ) supposedly have a pre-occupation with being healthy. Trouble is, I can't quite figure out how this actually applies to me. As far as I am aware, I have no such obsession! How would the particular hidden agenda manifest itself?

    Since the hidden agenda is a subconscious process, "obsession" and "pre-occupation" are not the right words to describe it, and because people often do not even realise that they have got it, the hidden agenda can strongly influence their behaviour.

    Because of the nature of the hidden agenda, people either try to hide it or openly stick it into other people's faces. Both ways are the defensive mechanisms aimed to protect the weakest spot. The first one reads like this: "If I don't show others my Achilles' heel and try to divert any attention from it, others won't know where to hurt me". The second one reads like this: "Instead of hiding, I am going to attract attention to it, so it will lead others to believe that it's my strength". And since the hidden agenda plays important role as the "psychological circuit breaker", the second choice of defence can be quite dangerous, because overriding the safety feature can overload the whole system.

    http://www.socionics.com/advan/qa130303.htm
    The specifics of the hidden agenda often pushes people to acquire qualities which are not supported by their strong functions

    I am speculating that Stalin's behavior can be better explained presuming he was much troubled by his subconscious sixth estimative function, "the hidden agenda". This is not how most people would interpret his behavior, but in my opinion people tend to view their second function in a very pragmatic fashion, it is means to an end, not an end in itself. Or as Pedro-the-Lion put it the even functions are slaves to the odd functions.

    The second function is the psyche’s second most conscious function after the first. The individual uses it a tool to achieve one’s goals related to one’s first function and perceives this aspect of reality as a means, not an end. By honing this tool to serve the first function’s demands, one discovers or invents something new or hitherto unknown. Hence the name “creative function.” One prefers to create one’s new version of things relating to one’s second function rather than dig through old material that one doesn’t try hard to remember, anyway. Individuals view their second function more as their own personal skill or quality than as an objective component of reality. Hence, criticism is more unpleasant than for the first function. At the same time, when others need our help using our second function, this is seen as acknowledging our success in this area, and we help out with pleasure and enthusiasm. One believes that everyone should have the right to freedom and creativity in this aspect of reality. If no one needs our help in this aspect of reality we feel unneeded. The more those around us need our expertise in this area, the greater our self-actualization in society.
    http://www.socionika.com/model.html


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    ENTJ don't disrespect the weak, they feel they are their champions.
    To sum it up: The theory doesn't work.
    I am glad to hear that at least you are, but perhaps not all? Whether my theory works is still a matter of opinion. Mine is distinctly the minority opinion - and to be honest I think I do have a habit of getting lost in my verbal cleverness, to invent arguments that sound impressive, but may not have that much substance. Particularly attributing different qualities to the right functions is often difficult... But as I wrote earlier just compare the Oldham's types: where does Stalin naturally fit in? I know the correspondense to socionics/MBTI types is not always correct, but surprisingly often it really is...

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Now there is of course another leader that has been miscast as not ENTJ. What were they smoking when they called ESFP Napoleon?

    Now anyone who wants more fallen ENTJ tyrants go see Revenge of the Sith and cheer Darth Jack London.
    Actually Napoleon was initially typed as an ESFP by no less a genius than Aushra herself! Then the mistake was corrected and now most socionicsts believe he was, wait.... ESTP, what else? I really should go see the movies.... :wink:
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    That's a long post :)
    I'll get back to it, when I'm not about to fall asleep.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Default You Said It

    Take your time, I was still tinkering with my post. Correcting a few typos, highlighting a few terms. I should be finished by now, finally.
    There is nothing definitive though. I am mainly trying to show how similar behavior can be quite reasonably explained in many different ways. Typing is difficult. Never forget that. Comments are welcome. If you could still find someone who thinks just like Stalin...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Creepy-

    Default

    Wow, CuriousSoul, umm....I don't mean to be insulting, so don't take it that way (because tone does not go over the internet) but let me just say a few things.

    First, in your posts you use information kind of like a blunt instrument: bludgeoning the reader to death with an onslaught of tenuously connected giant chunks of raw data. I always wish I could comment intelligently on your posts, but the amount of material is just so horrific that it is difficult to condense a single thought (or even to condense into a handful of thoughts) to post as a response.

    Not that I am criticizing, I am just pointing this out in case you wonder why sometimes your posts don't get as much "dissection" as you would like. (Believe me, you have a LOT of interesting thoughts that do deserve discussion...but it is hard to get close to them when these thoughts have a firehose filled with information ready to drown anyone who steps near!)

    I am definitely not saying that all the information you put in your posts is bad either; in fact, you have probably been one of the most helpful "information sources" on this forum.

    I guess what I am saying though, is that it is difficult to prove you wrong since you have so much information that can be tied together in any number of ways. I could probably prove that Stalin was ESFp or ISFj or anything with the sheer amount of information used.

    I really don't know what my point was going to be, so I will just put this out there anyway....

    P.S. I said that Bush was ESTp because "socionics.com said so" in my other post, but I forgot to include the "smiley face". I still am sure he is ESTp, but not entirely because socionics.com said so. :wink:

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    Default Gaon of Socionics

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Wow, CuriousSoul, umm....I don't mean to be insulting, so don't take it that way (because tone does not go over the internet) but let me just say a few things.

    First, in your posts you use information kind of like a blunt instrument: bludgeoning the reader to death with an onslaught of tenuously connected giant chunks of raw data. I always wish I could comment intelligently on your posts, but the amount of material is just so horrific that it is difficult to condense a single thought (or even to condense into a handful of thoughts) to post as a response. ]
    No, do not worry. You are not being insulting, because... you are correct. I am very good at generating ideas, but they are very rough and often disconnected and lacking in logical rigour. I think there is a lot of truth to these words Kaido wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaido21
    Shows well where is based at CuriousSouls psyche. I can do it, but I don't wish to is a great example of as Role function. You know you can use it though instead you don't like to use it and when use it, it is not so pleasent to use it.

    And these copy paste texts are facts so this might actually be how CuriousSoul shows its Suggestive Function, the . Suggestive function has a lot of things in memory , but you can not remember it so it controls your actions subconciously.
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5077#5077
    (I finally learned to link to individual posts. )

    The main point of writing about the types of celebrities was that I was kind of hoping we could type people by carefully analyzing the way different functions can manifest in the behavior of people with different types. Or in other words, one could say that I was trying to turn socionics into an exercise in Pilpul:

    PILPUL
    A method of Talmudic study. The word is derived from the verb "pilpel" (lit. "to spice," "to season," and in a metaphorical sense, "to dispute violently" [Tosef., B. B. vii. 5] or "cleverly" [Shab. 31a; B. M. 85b]).

    Description of Method.

    The essential characteristic of pilpul is that it leads to a clear comprehension of the subject under discussion by penetrating into its essence and by adopting clear distinctions and a strict differentiation of the concepts. By this method a sentence or maxim is carefully studied, the various concepts which it includes are exactly determined, and all the possible consequences to be deduced from it are carefully investigated. The sentence is then examined in its relation to some other sentence harmonizing with it, the investigation being directed toward determining whether the agreement appearing on a superficial contemplation of them continues to be manifest when all the possible consequences and deductions are drawn from each one of them; for if contradictory deductions follow from the two apparently agreeing sentences, then this apparent agreement is not an agreement in fact. Again, if two sentences apparently contradict each other, the pilpulistic method seeks to ascertain whether this seeming contradiction may not be removed by a more careful definition and a more exact limitation of the concepts connected with the respective sentences. If two contiguous sentences or maxims apparently imply the same thing, this method endeavors to decide whether the second sentence is really a repetition of the first and could have been omitted, or whether by a more subtle differentiation of the concepts a different shade of meaning may be discovered between them. Similarly if a regulation is mentioned in connection with two parallel cases, this method determines whether it might not have been concluded from the similarity of the cases itself that the regulation applying to the one applied to the other also, and why it was necessary to repeat explicitly the same regulation.

    The pilpulistic method, however, is not satisfied with merely attaining the object of its investigation. After having reached the desired result in one way, it inquires whether the same result might not have been attained in another, so that, if the first method of procedure should be eventually refuted, another method and another proof for the result attained may be forthcoming. This method is followed in most of the Talmudic discussions on regulations referring to the Law, and in the explanations of sentences of the Mishnah, of which an example may be given here.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=318&letter=P
    (I am not Jewish, but I have found traditional Talmudic Judaism endlessly fascinating, it seems to me that much of it can be only understood as an expression of ENFP/INFJ culture - mirror partners can be very like-minded.)

    But as I wrote a bit earlier it does indeed seem that similar behavior and traits can be explained in countless different ways and the point you made is indeed, at least at this stage, very much true:

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    I guess what I am saying though, is that it is difficult to prove you wrong since you have so much information that can be tied together in any number of ways. I could probably prove that Stalin was ESFp or ISFj or anything with the sheer amount of information used.
    It seems that instead of enticing other socionics enthusiats to invent ever finer distinctions and logical rules to to differentiate between the functions and types, I have only ended up boring and frightening most people away - and to be frank I am not quite sure whether the Pilpul method really did bring about logically flawless results either...

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Not that I am criticizing, I am just pointing this out in case you wonder why sometimes your posts don't get as much "dissection" as you would like. (Believe me, you have a LOT of interesting thoughts that do deserve discussion...but it is hard to get close to them when these thoughts have a firehose filled with information ready to drown anyone who steps near!)

    I am definitely not saying that all the information you put in your posts is bad either; in fact, you have probably been one of the most helpful "information sources" on this forum.


    I really don't know what my point was going to be, so I will just put this out there anyway....
    Thank you. It does all make sense. I guess we all would need some formidable sage of the ages, a true light unto nations, who is capable of formulating clear logicar rules from our vague intuitive ideas. Ideally an ENTP probably, maybe he or she will arrive one day.. Till then we are all on our own. :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    P.S. I said that Bush was ESTp because "socionics.com said so" in my other post, but I forgot to include the "smiley face". I still am sure he is ESTp, but not entirely because socionics.com said so. :wink:
    Where or when did Socionics.com say so? I have read this before, yet socionics.com does not say so at the moment, and neither has it claimed so before, as far as I can tell... Is it possible that Socionics.com could have different pages and content in America? Very strange. Anyway whatever Socionics.com says I do not think George Bush is an ESTP, as I wrote my Fi tells me Ethics is his first function, and in my (current) opinion he is most likely an ISFJ. I could be wrong of course - and there really is no reliable method of typing celebrities.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Default Cheers!

    Smilingeyes, Thank You for your post. It was by far the most detailed, carefully argued and simply the best criticism I have received. I am grateful for your efforts. You did raise a number of very good objections. Particularly Stalins's personality cult could be explained as Stalin having Fe as suggestive or dual-seeking function (the 5th function). I would also like to apologize for attributing sadistic qualities to ENTJs when in reality these things are much better explained by Stalin's difficult childhood and the traumas he suffered as a result of the frequent beatings Stalin received from his father.

    I changed the title of this post to Stalin ENTJ - or ISTJ - or What? to better reflect the current state of my mind. You say that he was not an ENTJ, but tomorrow we could have an ISTJ give us an equally plausible explanation why he was not an ISTJ, and then we are back to square one. It appears that I have a - perhaps somewhat morbid - fascination with evil, and to what extent the theories of socionics can be applied to explain the behavior of mentally abnormal people is still very much a matter of dispute.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    I have a full quadra company. When we gather together we almost always start to talk about Stalin, Lenin and the russian regime. We just love it. And guess what. The ISTJ respects Stalin to the bone

    I'm sorry that my english sux and I can't give more details. Besides that when I V.I and type someone I rarely know how I'm doing it. The exact type just pop-ups in case I have experience with this type before.
    For me Stalin is ISTJ.
    http://forum.socionix.com

    I don't see what's so important about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's just more people to declare war on.

    EVERYONE PLZ CONTINUE TO UPLOAD INFINITE AMOUNT OF PICS OF "CUTE" CATS AND PUPPIES. YOU KNOW WE GIVE A SHIT!!

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    Default Stalin



    Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.
    Joseph Stalin

    He was ISTP, 99% confidence, IMO.
    He just made the kind of comments that I have heard from ISTPs alone, actually I was going to refer to another one, but could not find it online now...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    How, in your opinion, did Stalin manifest his base ?

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    he looks like my sister-in-law, who suspiciously looks like many famous dictators. ): although i really doubt she's ISTp.

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    Oh no. Oh no no no. Beta ST to the max. ISTj, most probably.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    How, in your opinion, did Stalin manifest his base ?
    Well, he was a generous host for one thing. His dinner parties were often lavish in the extreme, for starters. I am actually not that confident about his type anymore, but there was a description of him playing the "please do praise me - even though I do not admit I like it" game. Or one of his closest associates (top leaders) kept comparing how much more he had achieved than Lenin, and Stalin pretented to deny this, while obviously enjoying it. If you can find a relevant quote I would be grateful. :wink: I have seen two ISTPs behave in similar manner, but no ISTJs so far. It is all highly speculative and circumstantial, of course, but in my opinion worth mentioning. I could also see Trotsky as ENFJ, and the relationship as conflicting. Si and Ne are the narcissistic functions, as Smilingeys put it.

    PS Nice to have you back here, and thanks for the interest.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Some of these observations aren't really type related -- specifically, the part about soaking up praise.

    Actually, Beta Quadra (particularly SLEs) are most noted for commonly having lavish feast rituals with lengthy toasts and speeches and displays of generosity and patronism. The whole idea is to win people over and unify and bind (and sometimes coerce) the group. These activities are pretty much irrelevant to an SLI with the Delta Quadra attitude of "let everyone do what they do best and then see what happens."

    SLIs tend to have a lenient leadership style and give lots of room for people to take initiative and come up with ideas of things to do (which best suits IEE), and then create conditions for people to leave if they don't end up being productive. LSIs, on the other hand, usually immediately create systems of rules and structure and expect loyalty and devotion (what a EIE can give, but a IEE cannot).

    Also, ruthlessness can stem from much easier than it can from . SLIs are centered on their own sense of personal comfort and try to create relaxed surroundings for their own convenience. They would rather do away with fixed rules and rituals. LSIs potentially can come to focus on and identify so much with adherence to a system that they leave no room for changes or people's desire to rethink things and start over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    he looks like my sister-in-law
    Your sister-in-law looks like Stalin ?

    Anyway, FWIW I agree with everything Rick wrote.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Actually, Beta Quadra (particularly SLEs) are most noted for commonly having lavish feast rituals with lengthy toasts and speeches and displays of generosity and patronism. The whole idea is to win people over and unify and bind (and sometimes coerce) the group. These activities are pretty much irrelevant to an SLI with the Delta Quadra attitude of "let everyone do what they do best and then see what happens."
    This paragraph does not make much sense to me. How does the Delta Quadra have a "live and let live" value when the ESTJ is supposed to be one of the most... overbearing/persuasive/controlling/whatever... types?

    Also, how is grandiousity and unity and coercion etc... the opposite of "live and let live"? Personally, I identify with the parts you wrote about being resistant to forcing my opinions (i.e. controlling) on others, but I don't really disagree with the first sentence you wrote here about the high life, either.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    he looks like my sister-in-law
    Your sister-in-law looks like Stalin ?

    Anyway, FWIW I agree with everything Rick wrote.
    it sounds horrible, but she actually does look a bit like stalin. /: i think she's the same type as saddam hussein/hitler/etc.

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    How does the Delta Quadra have a "live and let live" value when the ESTJ is supposed to be one of the most... overbearing/persuasive/controlling/whatever... types?
    Maybe that's some local socionics + MBTI lore. I can't really identify with that among the LSEs I know. Some of them get on people's nerves at work because they are often too demanding and high-strung. But they're really only focused on the rationale and demands of the work at hand and not on controlling their workers or creating a sense of unity. They don't care at all for unity or hierarchies -- they just demand that individuals try their hardest and do things that make sense.

    Also, how is grandiousity and unity and coercion etc... the opposite of "live and let live"? Personally, I identify with the parts you wrote about being resistant to forcing my opinions (i.e. controlling) on others, but I don't really disagree with the first sentence you wrote here about the high life, either.
    Rephrase this -- your sentence confuses me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    How does the Delta Quadra have a "live and let live" value when the ESTJ is supposed to be one of the most... overbearing/persuasive/controlling/whatever... types?
    Maybe that's some local socionics + MBTI lore. I can't really identify with that among the LSEs I know. Some of them get on people's nerves at work because they are often too demanding and high-strung. But they're really only focused on the rationale and demands of the work at hand and not on controlling their workers or creating a sense of unity. They don't care at all for unity or hierarchies -- they just demand that individuals try their hardest and do things that make sense.
    Agreed, even if I'm biased on account of being one.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Also, how is grandiousity and unity and coercion etc... the opposite of "live and let live"? Personally, I identify with the parts you wrote about being resistant to forcing my opinions (i.e. controlling) on others, but I don't really disagree with the first sentence you wrote here about the high life, either.
    Rephrase this -- your sentence confuses me
    If there's a situation that I have done before, or if there is a topic I am opininated about, I'll still more likely then not hold back my opinion and let people do/figure out things the way they want anyway (unless they ask me). Even if I'm strongly against something, I probably won't criticize others if they do it in front of me- I just ignore it.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    How does the Delta Quadra have a "live and let live" value when the ESTJ is supposed to be one of the most... overbearing/persuasive/controlling/whatever... types?
    Maybe that's some local socionics + MBTI lore. I can't really identify with that among the LSEs I know. Some of them get on people's nerves at work because they are often too demanding and high-strung. But they're really only focused on the rationale and demands of the work at hand and not on controlling their workers or creating a sense of unity. They don't care at all for unity or hierarchies -- they just demand that individuals try their hardest and do things that make sense.
    Agreed, even if I'm biased on account of being one.
    Agreed on the work part, or the unity part, or both?

    Personally, I think unity is a good thing, no?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    How does the Delta Quadra have a "live and let live" value when the ESTJ is supposed to be one of the most... overbearing/persuasive/controlling/whatever... types?
    Maybe that's some local socionics + MBTI lore. I can't really identify with that among the LSEs I know. Some of them get on people's nerves at work because they are often too demanding and high-strung. But they're really only focused on the rationale and demands of the work at hand and not on controlling their workers or creating a sense of unity. They don't care at all for unity or hierarchies -- they just demand that individuals try their hardest and do things that make sense.
    Agreed, even if I'm biased on account of being one.
    Agreed on the work part, or the unity part, or both?

    Personally, I think unity is a good thing, no?
    Pretty much both. Unity is preferrable but not important. The social contract is a resource to me, not an ideal.

    EDIT: Though there is one person in the world whose opinions matter to me.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Also, how is grandiousity and unity and coercion etc... the opposite of "live and let live"? Personally, I identify with the parts you wrote about being resistant to forcing my opinions (i.e. controlling) on others, but I don't really disagree with the first sentence you wrote here about the high life, either.
    Rephrase this -- your sentence confuses me
    If there's a situation that I have done before, or if there is a topic I am opininated about, I'll still more likely then not hold back my opinion and let people do/figure out things the way they want anyway (unless they ask me). Even if I'm strongly against something, I probably won't criticize others if they do it in front of me- I just ignore it.
    Hm... well, this is very general, and I don't see how it relates to anything socionic.

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    I still keep thinking that the quote, for example, very much expresses a Delta mindset. The sole function of ideologies is to serve as a mask for the instincts as Joachim Fest described Martin Bormann. ISTJs wants to attain power for the purpose of attaining worthwhile goals, whereas for ISTPs power is the goal in itself. Also, as a tentative rule of thumb, you are ideally communicating to a very peculiar version of your dual: ENFP is capable of reading people and delivering praise when people expect it, ENFJs again do not control their base function that well... - and actually want some noble goal to inspire them. Well, just read more of his quotes:
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...ph_stalin.html
    I am telling you this is (a logical subtype) ISTP talking not ISTJ. Just based on my observations, of course. :wink:
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    ISTJs wants to attain power for the purpose of attaining worthwhile goals, whereas for an ISTPs power is the goal in itself.
    If anything, I would say the opposite were true. "Worthwhile goals" sounds like , and "power for power's sake" sounds like (roughly, of course). The only goal in itself for SLI is his/her own personal comfort, health, and inner peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Also, as always, you are ideally communicating for your dual: ENFP is capable of reading people and delivering praise when people expect it, ENFJs again do not control their base function that well... - and actually want some noble goal to inspire them. Well, just read more of his quotes:
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...ph_stalin.html
    I am telling you this is (a logical subtype) ISTP talking not ISTJ. Just based on my observations, of course. :wink:
    IEE is capable of delivering praise only spontaneously, when he feels like it, not when others expect it! (usually he praises at unexpected moments)

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    Ego serves the needs of the ID.
    And that is where the real goals are.
    Or as you in your great wisdom wrote:

    October 3, 2006
    Personality accentuations and type

    There are many different kinds of psychopathology, or mental illness. I'm not at all an expert on any of them, but there is a definite relationship between personality accentuation and type. If you take the strongest qualities of an individual and allow them to engulf the person's life unhindered, you will get a mild form of mental illness called an accentuation (again, I'm not an expert, so my definitions here are not authoritative). The person's proper, "healthy" functioning will be disrupted, and they will experience psychological distress but will be mostly powerless to alleviate the situation.

    For example, we see a tendency for types to slide into lives of gluttony, sexual conquest, and pathological materialism and conquest. We see a tendency for types to eternally be "on the road" to somewhere else and never settle down to build material assets of any kind. types are sometimes subject to narcissistic self-adoration and can become slaves to others' worshipful attitude of them. types have a tendency toward pathological self-sacrifice. types have a tendency to become slaves to self-enjoyment. types have a tendency to want to control everything around them and submit it to their ideas of correctness. These are the ones I have specifically observed.

    You might say that if a person slides down his own "path of least resistance" without anyone or anything along the way to keep him in check, he can end up enslaved by a base function accentuation. Fun, huh? :-)

    http://www.socionics.us/blog/10_06.shtml

    Introverted feeling in the ego striving to satisfy the extraverted feeling (feeling outside the self) in the ID. And the same for all the other functions and the types. Freud was correct, and maybe he actually was ISFJ. I shall have to think about it, but I think it would make a lot of sense actually...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    But in that post I was talking about unbridled expressions of one's Ego functions, not the ID functions. It's ILEs and IEEs who slide into lives of obsessive , not ILIs and IEIs.

    I think the Ego serves the needs of the Id in the Freudian sense -- in other words, the conscious works on figuring out ways to fulfill the various needs of the body. But I don't see how this correlates to the socionics Ego and Id. I think parts of each function could belong to the Freudian idea of Id if they are unconscious and instinctive.

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    No, I think Freud can be taken quite literally in this respect at least. Or in terms of socionics: the goals are in the ID. Ego is the means to realizing these goals. The concepts of Id and Ego in socionics are derived from the Freudian concepts.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    I think that if you follow that path, it will be really hard to make sense of the quadras, relationships, and temperaments. Unless you just exchange the functions of the ego for the id.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    @Expat
    No, it is not actually, but I must think about it...
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Also, how is grandiousity and unity and coercion etc... the opposite of "live and let live"? Personally, I identify with the parts you wrote about being resistant to forcing my opinions (i.e. controlling) on others, but I don't really disagree with the first sentence you wrote here about the high life, either.
    Rephrase this -- your sentence confuses me
    If there's a situation that I have done before, or if there is a topic I am opininated about, I'll still more likely then not hold back my opinion and let people do/figure out things the way they want anyway (unless they ask me). Even if I'm strongly against something, I probably won't criticize others if they do it in front of me- I just ignore it.
    Hm... well, this is very general, and I don't see how it relates to anything socionic.
    What are you talking about? It seems like you were saying just a couple posts ago that that sort of thing was related to type?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Whatever, forget about it. I just didn't get what you were saying in your self-description.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Whatever, forget about it. I just didn't get what you were saying in your self-description.
    So how do you reconcile the two opposite stances?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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