to Fi polrs:

[ashlesha]

i'm curious about something. not sure how to phrase it.
i think its obvious pretty much everyone cares about having close friends and not wanting to be backstabbed and things like that. i'm just wondering how exactly that plays out in the case of Fi polrs.

1. is that sort of information processed with Ti instead? a different fx?
2. do you just not think about or care whether people you know are loyal or how much you care about them or whatever..? or do you think about it in a paranoid sort of way, or...?
3. do you feel an obligation or inclination to be a good friend or a "good person"? for what reason?

[Aylen]

I am not sure what "polrs" is. Can you link me to something, please? Then I can see how I relate it.

Edit: I value loyalty and I feel no obligation to be a good friend. Just want to say that without knowing the polrs thing.

Edit: Being a good friend/person comes from the heart. I can't fake it and obligation...all based on morality dictated by outside influences.

[ashlesha]

I am not sure what "polrs" is. Can you link me to something, please? Then I can see how I relate it.

SLE and ILE have Fi polr so if you are IEI it would a characteristic of your "dual." this is a wikisocion description:

The individual does not normally pay attention to the nuances of interpersonal relationships; he is either overly suspicious or overly assuming of his relations with others when they are not clearly defined. More importance is given to these relations as they pertain to objective mutual benefit; entertaining one another and accomplishing mutual goals are seen as the main focus, rather than seeing the relationships as rewarding in and of themselves. The individual does not expect others to be actively aware or concerned with his own personal sentiments, and so sees little reason to be concerned with those of others, unless they have direct consequences for the individual. Statements by other persons reflecting their inner feelings are not fully registered by the individual if not accompanied by external emotional expression or actions. Suggestions that the individual may have acted unethically in the eyes of another person who has not clearly expressed disapproval are met with bafflement by the individual; those that are expressed without tact are either dismissed or reacted to aggressively.

Expressions of deep personal sentiments are awkward for the individual, whether coming from another or himself. He does not see it as his "right" to place the burden of his true emotions on another, both because he knows how uncomfortable those of others make him (even when they are positive and genuine), and because of his own awkwardness in expressing them.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...overted_ethics

[ashlesha]

The individual does not expect others to be actively aware or concerned with his own personal sentiments, and so sees little reason to be concerned with those of others, unless they have direct consequences for the individual.

this is reading to me as: "they don't care about other peoples feelings"

what do you guys make of it?

edit: this probably sounds judgey but i just wanna hear it from the horses mouth.

[Reficulris]

i'm curious about something. not sure how to phrase it.
i think its obvious pretty much everyone cares about having close friends and not wanting to be backstabbed and things like that. i'm just wondering how exactly that plays out in the case of Fi polrs.

I think it's kinda binary. ehm i think @andelise talked about levels of control. To me people are either strangers (not to be trusted) or friends/family/lovedones. People in the first catagory kinda don't enter into any equation. I don't consciously think about how I affect them (ofc i keep up the appearances of civil behaviour, but i'll not go out of my way to help or hinder them).
People in the second catagory gain my attention, trust and love in one package. Yes there's grades of love and trust, but it's basically on or off in the sense that i'll trust my least close friend with almost as much as my closest lovedones. Not to say i value them equally, it's just, they're in that catagory..err

Betrayal means; I'll go out of my way to get to you for the first few days, afterwards i'll sever all ties and forget about you (quite literally).

1. is that sort of information processed with Ti instead? a different fx?
2. do you just not think about or care whether people you know are loyal or how much you care about them or whatever..? or do you think about it in a paranoid sort of way, or...?
3. do you feel an obligation or inclination to be a good friend or a "good person"? for what reason?

1 no it's still Fi, it's just really really bad and binary. I do analyse relationships with Ti as a kind of security blanket though, before someone gos from acquantances to friends there's a mental checkup. not that it really helps or matters, cuz when i like someone i'll like them regardless of what my awesome Ti has to say about it...

2 eeeehh, we care, we care a lot. I think it's actually the biggest fear of an ILE to lose lovedones (not sure, @hkkmr?). I wouldn't say paranoid, but it's not nuanced. It's not "fair" or "correct". It's crude and harsh. I'm very sceptical of loyalty consciously, but i'll asume someone is trustworthy unless they betray me (that is, if I know their name -> they're in the friend zone (not that one)) Actually the assumption that people will be fair leads to being led down wich leads to even harsher conscious judgment about loyalty which, sadly, does not lead to making better choices in people which lead to.............bah

3 Yes basically I still operate under the moral restrains of my upbringing. I don't asume them to be anything more than that though (training, schooling, conditioning) and don't resist changing moral opinions if good (rational) arguments are posed or if attractive females offer me sex in return (this looks like a joke, but actually SO have a strong effect on my morals, usually pronouncing them, cuz i'm kinda amoral on my own). I want to be a good friend, good partner, good son sure... Not so sure what that means though, so i take it on a day to day, moment to moment basis. It's not categorial but kinda.... ok, lets phrase it in this way, there is a pleasing side to ILE (or at least to me) that exists because he wants to be "good". Missing the objective guideline for "good" means turning to others for that direction. Hence: I feel "good" when I'm important, good, healthy, supportive, inspiring etc to others. Is this the same as morality, nah is the end result the same, in my case probably usually.

Does this help at all? ((also, the other thing, want to pm about it?))

[Reficulris]

Wait, this says it all, and much better than I did ;-)

SLE and ILE have Fi polr so if you are IEI it would a characteristic of your "dual." this is a wikisocion description:

The individual does not normally pay attention to the nuances of interpersonal relationships; he is either overly suspicious or overly assuming of his relations with others when they are not clearly defined. More importance is given to these relations as they pertain to objective mutual benefit; entertaining one another and accomplishing mutual goals are seen as the main focus, rather than seeing the relationships as rewarding in and of themselves. The individual does not expect others to be actively aware or concerned with his own personal sentiments, and so sees little reason to be concerned with those of others, unless they have direct consequences for the individual. Statements by other persons reflecting their inner feelings are not fully registered by the individual if not accompanied by external emotional expression or actions. Suggestions that the individual may have acted unethically in the eyes of another person who has not clearly expressed disapproval are met with bafflement by the individual; those that are expressed without tact are either dismissed or reacted to aggressively.

Expressions of deep personal sentiments are awkward for the individual, whether coming from another or himself. He does not see it as his "right" to place the burden of his true emotions on another, both because he knows how uncomfortable those of others make him (even when they are positive and genuine), and because of his own awkwardness in expressing them.

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...overted_ethics

[kopyk]

why dontcha drag ankh & aq & hkkmr in here. edit: oh yeah I forgot about refi up there

[ashlesha]

Edit: Being a good friend/person comes from the heart. I can't fake it and obligation...all based on morality dictated by outside influences.

a sense of obligation can come from inside, too.

i am ambivalent. loyalty is meaningless if it only comes from obligation and not from the heart, BUT..
i don't know how to hold it as a value without also holding it as a standard?

[Reficulris]

With strangers? yes that's accurate. With people I know, not at all..

As an example, i tend to walk through crowded streets in the assumption that people will move away (they do). [no regard for the sentiments of strangers]
when i walk the street with someone else, i'll make a path for them, block others that seem to be in a collision course, check how fast they're walking and if i maybe should slow down. Check if they've eaten enough and or are getting tired, check if everyone is still around...etc etc [concern for close ones]

this is reading to me as: "they don't care about other peoples feelings"

what do you guys make of it?

edit: this probably sounds judgey but i just wanna hear it from the horses mouth.

[Aylen]

That is good info! @lungs. I have to read it a couple times I think to get it.

If I am IEI you are my benefactor? Hmm, I got to look this up. heh

[Reficulris]

why dontcha drag ankh & hkkmr in here. edit: oh yeah I forgot about refi up there

how could you, forget about me? you're just not taking my feelings into account, you dirty ILE!!

Edit: Ananka retired didn't she?

[Aylen]

a sense of obligation can come from inside, too.

i am ambivalent. loyalty is meaningless if it only comes from obligation and not from the heart, BUT..
i don't know how to hold it as a value without also holding it as a standard?

I see where it can come from the inside too but for me personally I feel morality in general is learned, from others. If I was raised by wolves (I wish) I would have no sense of morality. I would be a feral child.

[Amber]

Ime Fi polr does not go by a fixed set of "things to do" in order to maintain a relationship ---almost as if they don´t have a concept of what manifestation / experience of certain feelings should be like. They are more empirical, go by trial and error in relationships. As EP temp. they prefer change and will take action towards it (otherwise they get bored). As Ti-valuing EPs their focus is not mainly on "novelty" in an arena of interpersonal feelings, as one would expect from a IEE, for instance, they´re not after "nuances" they already have a glimpse of, in a way, they don´t want to enrich the "emotional palette" through new experiences, but tend to rather objectify things and persons involved - what´s played with is Ti as "objective distance" or hierarchical structures *as they perceive them*. Fe HA and Fi polr often takes the form of going mostly by obvious reactions to know what another is about, what they ´re feeling or what a relationship is made of - and thus trying to provoke those reactions. This may manifest as provoking conflicts and fights, among other things.

This has just crossed my mind , I´ve always considered it an expression of Beta Fi polr and a song about a Victim-Aggressor-like interaction : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkj...-rihanna_music

For some more theoretical info about the POLR , in general , I also recommend this page , cause I find it pretty good on the whole : http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?opt...251&Itemid=139
(one may also find there some reasons why Fi polr may manifest as an intensive preoccupation with that particular aspect of life ...although one is not "gifted" in it ; this may result in behavior that looks like paranoia , precisely because the person doesn´t have personal frames to estimate "Fi stuff", so they try to apply Ti categorizations where it may not work)

[Aquagraph]

As usual, I will answer how these apply to me and avoid arguing about type relatedness.

1. is that sort of information processed with Ti instead? a different fx?

I might not understand this. I think my position with relationships is less emotionally intuitive and more "contractual." I'm afraid of overstepping on someone else's boundaries.

2. do you just not think about or care whether people you know are loyal or how much you care about them or whatever..? or do you think about it in a paranoid sort of way, or...?

In short: Both. Sometimes I really like the idea of what Mr Ordell said about Melanie in Jackie Brown: "I don't trust Melanie but I trust Melanie to be Melanie". This basically means that if I know how a person operates and I am still aware that the worst that person would be inclined to do is within my tolerance, I can provide this person my trust at given levels.

It's also important for me to be able to retaliate so that it will work as a deterrent. By extension, I think this is the reason why martial arts tend to raise people's self-esteem more than other hobbies.

3. do you feel an obligation or inclination to be a good friend or a "good person"? for what reason?

I'll caricaturize my stance a bit: Being good is a good policy. It's effective to be reliable. The counterpart of reliability is influence.

[Olduvai]

ask woof, he is ILE (he mistakenly thinks he's SEE)

one thing I've noticed about Fi-PoLRs is they get mad or uncomfortable if you talk about "who they are [inside]" or "what their 'essence' is"

[xerx]

For me (assuming I am one), it feels like you're navigating relationships with blinders on.

It's binary. You're either all in, or all out. Small bumps are magnified to feel like catastrophic relationship enders. Friendliness from someone can feel like riding a wave outside of your control.

Unless the consequences don't matter (ie. the person is as bad at relationships as you are, you'll never see them again, etc.), new acquaintanceships can be unpleasant because of the fear of transgressing on someone's values. Meeting new people feels like worlds colliding.


There's a sort of unintentional lethargy when it comes to building relationships - or sharp spikes of relationship-building activity. As was said, it's binary.


And to people who say that Fi Polrs need constant "feedback" because they're inept at reading signals, which is why they have duals who LOLOLOL or all the time: go away! We're not that bad at reading people's intentions. (even though it'd be fun to have a dual like that).


I hope those aren't just my own idiosyncrasies. Or worse, if everyone was like that.

[Satan]

i'm curious about something. not sure how to phrase it.
i think its obvious pretty much everyone cares about having close friends and not wanting to be backstabbed and things like that. i'm just wondering how exactly that plays out in the case of Fi polrs.

Well people seem to think I'm Fi Polr so I'll answer.

1. is that sort of information processed with Ti instead? a different fx?

I have no idea really.

2. do you just not think about or care whether people you know are loyal or how much you care about them or whatever..? or do you think about it in a paranoid sort of way, or...?

No. Paranoid maybe. It's more a coarse kind of way, within certain boundaries.

3. do you feel an obligation or inclination to be a good friend or a "good person"? for what reason?

Sometimes.

[kopyk]

one thing I've noticed about Fi-PoLRs is they get mad or uncomfortable if you talk about "who they are [inside]" or "what their 'essence' is"

why can't this be attributed to any other NF function polr?

[Esaman]

why can't this be attributed to any other NF function polr?

Who doesn't get mad or uncomfortable when lunatic with raging issues authoritatively project his delusions about who you are?

[Radio]

model A confuses more people than it helps i think. esp when you cross it with "jungian" super-real authentic cognitive functions and the cult of ashton. anyway socionics proves time and time again that it cannot model or predict higher-level social or mental functions, and when you get into more complex stuff you don't get neat, predictable categories and there is a lot of overlap between types. the stock response would be, that in classical socionics, polr doesn't mean the IE is non-functional, it's processed the same way just less comfortably or willingly, so it's more of a repressed process, but seriously whatever. IME with Fi-polrs, it seems like they have very little insight into how people feel towards them, for instance my ILE friend in highschool dorkily told me he had read a book on body-language and according to what it said, i must be secretly in love with him. so i mean, i'm inclined to think that level of social retardedness is exclusive to Fi-polrs but i have no way of proving this. in the same vein i keep talking about LSI best friend, who isn't Fi-polr but exhibits this weird do-you-like-me-or-do-you-hate-me cycle and he randomly (random to me) becomes distant and for a while remains distant, and then opens up about how he thinks i don't like him and the distancing is so that he doesn't get hurt, but he doesn't open up this way in front of everyone and the feelings are precious, delicate parts of his inner self that must be preserved, and so forth.

anyway, i have no idea what i'm talking about i hope this babbling was sufficient to cure your boredom for a couple of seconds

[FoxOnStilts]

why dontcha drag ankh & aq & hkkmr in here. edit: oh yeah I forgot about refi up there

QQ

[kopyk]

*pets fox*

[FoxOnStilts]

And to people who say that Fi Polrs need constant "feedback" because they're inept at reading signals, which is why they have duals who LOLOLOL or all the time: go away! We're not that bad at reading people's intentions. (even though it'd be fun to have a dual like that)..

Eh, it's not that I'm BAD at it, it's just that once I think I've reached a conclusion to their intentions, I second guess myself like crazy. "I think this person wants to be friends? But do they want to hang out outside of class? Get a coffee? Oh that's weird. What if we're just class-friends and not out-of-class friends. If I messaged them asking to just hang out, would they think that weird? Like I'm someone they don't mind hanging out with in class, but not fit for being friends. I mean, I have people like that.Okay, well, let's just wait and see if they say they want to do anything instead of actually doing something myself."

I am really good with groups of people, though. I think because it's a group, there aren't as many deep-emotional-inner-bond-talk or whatever, which makes me uncomfortable. If a group starts doing that, I walk away, but if it's something like a work group or school group where we have a task, I excel at getting people motivated and working together.

Also, once I trust someone, the instant they do something to change that, I have no problem immediately dropping them. I usually don't do forgive-and-forget. Once someone does something that could be even the littlest bit outside my trust for them, it's like a switch and I nope right out of there cold.

I also often get called a know-it-all because I correct people a lot and point out a lot of really cool information about how things work or something I learned. But really, it's just me treating others how I want to be treated. I love learning and I like when people point out how I'm wrong so I can adjust. However, other people have called it condescending. I just think I'm educating the world and they're better off for it, especially as my tone is more akin to excitement than condescension so they can suck a dick.

[Beautiful sky]

Fi polr just has to do with being uncomfortable around groups of people. They are quote well in their relations but place them in a room with people unlike NFs and SFs that are social and connect to others they are uncomfortable and stand by the sidelines and don't interact much.

[xerx]

"I think this person wants to be friends? But do they want to hang out outside of class? Get a coffee? Oh that's weird. What if we're just class-friends and not out-of-class friends. If I messaged them asking to just hang out, would they think that weird? Like I'm someone they don't mind hanging out with in class, but not fit for being friends. I mean, I have people like that.Okay, well, let's just wait and see if they say they want to do anything instead of actually doing something myself."

haha, yeah this pretty much encapsulates the stasis and anxiety I feel around most people. It often leads to me seeming more introverted and avoidant than I actually am. I've gotten better over time though, esp. since learning about Socionics.

I also often get called a know-it-all because I correct people a lot and point out a lot of really cool information about how things work or something I learned. But really, it's just me treating others how I want to be treated. I love learning and I like when people point out how I'm wrong so I can adjust. However, other people have called it condescending. I just think I'm educating the world and they're better off for it, especially as my tone is more akin to excitement than condescension so they can suck a dick.

Augusta was apparently like that too.

[Beautiful sky]

Negativist types and introverted ST have the most trouble with relations.

[Absurd]

This has just crossed my mind , I´ve always considered it an expression of Beta Fi polr and a song about a Victim-Aggressor-like interaction : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkj...-rihanna_music

Seriously, put a flashing warning sign when you link some material, I got curious this time and it almost burned out my eyes and made me deaf.

[Olduvai]

Fi polr just has to do with being uncomfortable around groups of people. They are quote well in their relations but place them in a room with people unlike NFs and SFs that are social and connect to others they are uncomfortable and stand by the sidelines and don't interact much.

no, NOT AT ALL

SLE and ILE are two of the most sociable, group-oriented types in the socion

again: your head is up your ass

[Amber]

Gonna try to tone down the Fi polr in this thread a bit.

I think she´s SEE btw. Incredible voice.

[Jean Costa]

model A confuses more people than it helps i think. esp when you cross it with "jungian" super-real authentic cognitive functions and the cult of ashton. anyway socionics proves time and time again that it cannot model or predict higher-level social or mental functions, and when you get into more complex stuff you don't get neat, predictable categories and there is a lot of overlap between types. the stock response would be, that in classical socionics, polr doesn't mean the IE is non-functional, it's processed the same way just less comfortably or willingly, so it's more of a repressed process, but seriously whatever. IME with Fi-polrs, it seems like they have very little insight into how people feel towards them, for instance my ILE friend in highschool dorkily told me he had read a book on body-language and according to what it said, i must be secretly in love with him. so i mean, i'm inclined to think that level of social retardedness is exclusive to Fi-polrs but i have no way of proving this. in the same vein i keep talking about LSI best friend, who isn't Fi-polr but exhibits this weird do-you-like-me-or-do-you-hate-me cycle and he randomly (random to me) becomes distant and for a while remains distant, and then opens up about how he thinks i don't like him and the distancing is so that he doesn't get hurt, but he doesn't open up this way in front of everyone and the feelings are precious, delicate parts of his inner self that must be preserved, and so forth.

anyway, i have no idea what i'm talking about i hope this babbling was sufficient to cure your boredom for a couple of seconds

Great commentare, Radio. I think SLEs are really good at "reading" people but they only see the manifested surface, the expressions and so on. SLE is the estereotypical con man. Although they seem to have no friends because there are no true bonding or something like that.

[Reficulris]

Great commentare, Radio. I think SLEs are really good at "reading" people but they only see the manifested surface, the expressions and so on. SLE is the estereotypical con man. Although they seem to have no friends because there are no true bonding or something like that.

WTF? eh....Beta's bond plenty, SLE's included. Not sure what kind of SLE's you know, but imh this is way off....

[FDG]

Also, once I trust someone, the instant they do something to change that, I have no problem immediately dropping them. I usually don't do forgive-and-forget. Once someone does something that could be even the littlest bit outside my trust for them, it's like a switch and I nope right out of there cold.

I'm also like that. I believe all the ExTx types are similar in this respect. (and acting differently is something we very slowly learn from our duals)

[Jean Costa]

WTF? eh....Beta's bond plenty, SLE's included. Not sure what kind of SLE's you know, but imh this is way off....

What is Fi? Is recognizing oneself identity and the identity of others. So if you're a Fi POLR you might have some dificulties on facing a more closed contact and intimacy and thinking about who you are, because that frightens you. Keeping the things superficial is better. Dificulty puting oneself in other people place. But whatever that's my opinion. I'm a newbie and i'm sleepy. I love SLEs btw.

[Reficulris]

What is Fi? Is recognizing oneself identity and the identity of others. So if you're a Fi POLR you might have some dificulties on facing a more closed contact and intimacy and thinking about who you are, because that frightens you. Keeping the things superficial is better. Dificulty puting oneself in other people place. But whatever that's my opinion. I'm a newbie and i'm sleepy. I love SLEs btw.

Hmp, If Fi is what you define it as, maybe. (but that definition is far too shallow, narrow and unecompassing for one element)

But than, Fi Polr doesn't mean you have NO Fi, it's just pretty stupid. I think SLE's might actually be more in danger of bonding with the wrong people than they are of not bonding. Beta is a pretty closely knit quadra, it's bonded, it's passionate.

keeping things superficial is NOT beta at all. (i usually point at the gamma's for that, but than, i'm superficial, so alpha's can be too (so probably NTR)).

I'm not sure your response isn't "just theory" and no meat...

[Reficulris]

no, NOT AT ALL

SLE and ILE are two of the most sociable, group-oriented types in the socion

again: your head is up your ass

I agree totally with KeChey here.
@Maritsa, you're probably as far off as you could be...... what you describe might be Fe polr. Definately not FI polr.

I think a lot of ILE's have given good explanations about how this manifests in them above. Unless you're un/re-typing them all as something else (and even than, what ARE they describing?) your explanation is kinda like translating something 20 times through babblefish.

Also, why are you posting in a thread that calls for Fi polrs to respond?

[kopyk]

Regarding Kenneth's retyping of Maritsa as IEI... @Maritsa, have you considered Ti-HA for yourself? It would certainly explain your easily criticized views, such as in this topic.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

@lungs

im not fi polr (I don't think lol) but I want to answer on behalf of my entp friend:

He does nice things for people because well I think at the core he's just a good guy (like a lot of heroes say, you don't need a reason for helping people, you just help them because it's the right thing to do), just like a stereotypical caring gamer dude (he's one of my closest friends). However, for him being Fi polr is more about being crippled romantically I think. He admits that he's so clueless in that area, like sharing romantic intimacy. But yet somehow I feel safe with him and trust him, it's weird. He's pretty narcissistic in the sense he knows so much about everything, yet he has this softness/optimist about him.

In a lot of ways I think he's nicer than me and I envy that about him, he goes out of his way to drive people places when they can't. I sometimes wish I was more giving like that, we are strong in different areas tho. I feel much more confident about romance than he does. He feels a lot more confident with extroverted/logical-y stuff. yet at the core we care about not pissing each other off, so it works.

[Erk]

Who doesn't get mad or uncomfortable when lunatic with raging issues authoritatively project his delusions about who you are?

You mad bro? Why should you get mad, what, are you afraid of the truth or something? I could personally care less what someone thinks about who I am.

[JWC3]

As far as being back stabbed is concerned, no, I honestly don't think about it nor do I feel I've been betrayed in almost any sense of the word. I don't really think of my friends as either 'with me or against me' or anyone for that matter, even a significant other. Conceptually my thought pattern doesn't involve 'sides' and to that end people 'switching sides' doesn't register. I generally trust people to act as individuals with their own interests first and if I really trust someone their actions don't bother me.

EDIT: Sometimes my friends want to succeed at my expense, that doesn't make them not my friends.

[Esaman]

I could personally care less what someone thinks about who I am.

I couldn't care less what someone thinks about who I am.
I could care less what somemany think about who I am, but I wouldn't because it is bad for social life.
It so happens that people are easily impressionable even against their best judgment and conscious will. Projections of loud lunatic can and will land in their subconscious.
As so it is rational, even though usually just instinctual reaction to want the person to shut up.

 

You mad bro? Why should you get mad, what, are you afraid of the truth or something?

Don't mind the truth, but cognitive dissonance causes one to come to have distaste for misinformation and confusion it causes. I am sure you have heard about such experience.
Any other questions, my brother by hominid family?