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Thread: Egalatarianism/Equalitarianism

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    Default Egalatarianism/Equalitarianism

    I like egalatarianism, it has a very simple description which I can apply broadly to all situations.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...egalitarianism

    1: a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs
    2: a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

    I think it's powerful because it doesn't set up individuals as opponents. Who's with me?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

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    Oh, you're one of those people who has it out for nonhumans. Dogs and cats get neglected and abused all the time but you don't care about THAT. asshole.

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    And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber.
    And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself.
    And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
    And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.
    One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear.
    And terror possesed me then.
    And I begged,
    "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
    And the angel said unto me,
    "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
    You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."
    And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared,
    "Hear me now, I have seen the light!
    They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
    Damn you!
    Let the rabbits wear glasses!
    Save our brothers!"
    Can I get an amen?
    Can I get a hallelujah?
    Thank you Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think it's powerful because it doesn't set up individuals as opponents. Who's with me?
    The nature of inequality though is that one group holds disproportionate power over another, at some point in achieving equality you have to take power from one group and give it to the other. You can't be an egalitarian and not have to take sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber.
    And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself.
    And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
    And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.
    One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear.
    And terror possesed me then.
    And I begged,
    "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
    And the angel said unto me,
    "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
    You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."
    And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared,
    "Hear me now, I have seen the light!
    They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
    Damn you!
    Let the rabbits wear glasses!
    Save our brothers!"
    Can I get an amen?
    Can I get a hallelujah?
    Thank you Jesus.
    +1

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    lump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ainfigur View Post
    The nature of inequality though is that one group holds disproportionate power over another, at some point in achieving equality you have to take power from one group and give it to the other. You can't be an egalitarian and not have to take sides.
    i'm trying to think about whether i agree with this and its hard to say. to get away from the feminist thing (before people start trolling me cuz they know i'll react lol), allowing gay marriage would give power to gay people without taking it away from anybody else. but i suppose having your relationships being sanctioned as healthy and normal while other peoples relationships are not is a form of power. but i still don't see gay rights issues as being a competition between straight people and gay people...(but somehow feminism is seen as a competition all the time..) what i'm trying to say is basically that to have equality doesn't necessarily mean stealing something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i'm trying to think about whether i agree with this and its hard to say. to get away from the feminist thing (before people start trolling me cuz they know i'll react lol), allowing gay marriage would give power to gay people without taking it away from anybody else. but i suppose having your relationships being sanctioned as healthy and normal while other peoples relationships are not is a form of power. but i still don't see gay rights issues as being a competition between straight people and gay people...(but somehow feminism is seen as a competition all the time..) what i'm trying to say is basically that to have equality doesn't necessarily mean stealing something.
    It doesn't have to be a direct transfer of power, it was an oversimplification to put it in terms of taking it directly from one group to the other. But equal marriages are only possible where religion doesn't hold institutional or a significant amount of psychological power, so in that sense there has been a historical transfer of power from the religious (to dictate to others how to live their lives) to gay people (to decide for themselves).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber.
    And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself.
    And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest.
    And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil.
    One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear.
    And terror possesed me then.
    And I begged,
    "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?"
    And the angel said unto me,
    "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
    You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."
    And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared,
    "Hear me now, I have seen the light!
    They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul!
    Damn you!
    Let the rabbits wear glasses!
    Save our brothers!"
    Can I get an amen?
    Can I get a hallelujah?
    Thank you Jesus.
     






    I have no clue what this thread is about so I am going to read it. This post caught my eye



    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i'm trying to think about whether i agree with this and its hard to say. to get away from the feminist thing (before people start trolling me cuz they know i'll react lol), allowing gay marriage would give power to gay people without taking it away from anybody else. but i suppose having your relationships being sanctioned as healthy and normal while other peoples relationships are not is a form of power. but i still don't see gay rights issues as being a competition between straight people and gay people...(but somehow feminism is seen as a competition all the time..) what i'm trying to say is basically that to have equality doesn't necessarily mean stealing something.
    it's like when people complain about having Gay Pride Parades, with "why do gay people flaunt their sexuality in our faces, we don't have Straight Pride Parades!" well you do, you have them every day.

    likewise, people complain about evolutionary biologists being really dogmatic about their beliefs, but they kind of need to be that in order to keep the balance. otherwise the dogmatism from the creationism crowd will win out.

    etc.

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    also this video, re: why people have started to resent feminism:



    (fun sidenote: ILI guy)

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    I just posted this song in "what are you listening to" but it inspired this post so I am adding it as background music to enhance my mood.



    I have come to the conclusion, over time, and experience, that we are not all created equal. People are born into poverty or with defects every day. Others into privilege but that doesn't mean they don't have their own problems. Some rich people have debilitating health problems or mental health problems....Think Howard Hughes. A blind man in the world of the seeing has a disadvantage in some ways but in other ways he has an advantage. He "sees" things that others don't. I had a blind family member so I know this is true.

    We are not "equal". We are all different and I have seen the most disadvantaged people overcome all their obstacles and succeed because they knew they had to fight for what they want. I will never strive to be equal with anyone or accept that there is nothing I can do to change my own life. I prefer to keep my differences and know that I am the only person who can change my circumstances by making choices and sometimes they are hard choices. I am eternally grateful to those who gave me a helping hand out of any "gutters" I found myself in over the years, and there were plenty. I did it to myself though and sometimes there was no one there to pull me out. Then I had to make a choice and a plan to get myself out. I am always willing to pull someone out of their own "gutter". If asked, I will do anything in my power as long as it doesn't impact my sanity.

    I want to be in a world that acknowledges difference but doesn't judge them negatively. If your friend, neighbor or a stranger needs something and you can spare it then give it to them without expectation and from personal experience I have seen that when you do this, it comes back to you. Maybe not from the same person but the universe will place someone in your world to help you if you need help. All you have to do is see the opportunity someone offers. Many times in the past I chose to ignore the opportunities offered me but I also took advantage of way more, than I ignored, because I am able to see things, the underlying benefits, and how they will effect my life in the future. Also I can see from my past what didn't work before and try a different approach. Sometimes it takes me a few repeats of the same cycle before I choose to get off my hamster wheel.

    Anyway, "pay it forward", "Kumbaya" and all that other "good" stuff. I am in a gentle mood right now.
    Last edited by Aylen; 04-10-2014 at 09:27 PM. Reason: comma and spelling

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    @mfckrz!!!!!

    i'm not sure what you mean by bypassed/ignored, do you have any examples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    I think it's more often the case that the 'power' of others/groups/institutions/etc. becomes asymmetrically bypassed or ignored, rather than explicitly transferred. Conceiving equality as a zero-sum exchange probably isn't desirable either.
    The key phrase was "at some point", i don't think equality is a zero sum exchange, it benefits everyone. I'm also interested in what you mean by bypassed/ignored power. Surely that isn't power by any conventional definition? examples pls.
    Last edited by Ainfigur; 04-10-2014 at 10:43 PM. Reason: too late fuck

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Basically just that there's many different ways in which institutions, cultural norms, etc. can change over time for whatever causes. And that construing social change as an outcome between adversarial groups is an overly narrow prescription.

    E.g. in the case of gay marriage vs. religion, one could argue that the influence of organized religion (at least in Western societies) has been on the decline for quite awhile anyway. But then there used to be a lot more social stigma, even among the distinctly nonreligious, about homosexuality being creepy/deranged/whatever. That stigmatization has eroded in more recent times, but this erosion didn't come at the expense of someone else's power.

    Alternatively, there are people who ignore formal legal procedures regarding marriage, out of their own beliefs that the state has no jurisdiction over the sacral. Sure, they won't be able to file joint income taxes, but if a consensus of those around them also recognizes the union, maybe it's irrelevant in their minds.
    I agree with you, my basic point was using the term "egalitarian" to avoid setting people up as opponents is pretty pointless given there's always going to be an element of give and take in achieving equality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ainfigur View Post
    I agree with you, my basic point was using the term "egalitarian" to avoid setting people up as opponents is pretty pointless given there's always going to be an element of give and take in achieving equality.
    Ah, but are you intending equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

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    Lol. *whisper, whisper, cabal* *whisper, whisper, political coup'

    I vote for the socialist republic of Judaism of the popular peoples front....


    and the messiah

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    Heresy.


    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    I prefer the peoples front of Judaisims popular socialist republic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminatronix View Post
    Lol. *whisper, whisper, cabal* *whisper, whisper, political coup'

    I vote for the socialist republic of Judaism of the popular peoples front....

    and the messiah
    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I prefer the peoples front of Judaisims popular socialist republic
    Popular Judaisms front the republic of the socialist peoples

    [I have no clue what any of it means but I went with it]

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    I always felt like Egalitarianism was a good word, and referred to a free society. Equalitarianism, on the other hand, was about the tyranny of forced mediocrity. Maybe that's just my subjective perception of those terms.

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    The OP was a trap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    The OP was a trap.


    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckrz View Post
    You're probably thinking of the (Libertarian) Egalitarianism coined by Locke, asserting equality of natural rights—all persons having innate rights to life, liberty, property, and such.

    Egalitarianism in contemporary parlance though almost exclusively denotes the Marxian sense—equal wealth, equal class, equal outcomes, what you refer to as forced mediocrity, etc.
    can something always be placed in one category or another? i think arguments about stuff like minimum wage sometimes focus around whether its a matter of equal opportunity (you have to have a certain standard of living to begin with to reach the first rung of the ladder?) or a matter of socialism, wealth distribution, that kinda thing. so when it comes to @InvisibleJim's question earlier it seems more like semantics and a lot of people might say one or the other but have really different views if you asked more detailed questions. thats part of the problem with labels, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post

    1: a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic affairs
    That's all very nice and fine and wouldn't it be nice. But, you know. Dream on.


    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post

    2: a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people
    The circle of life. Some get eaten.




    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post

    I think it's powerful because it doesn't set up individuals as opponents. Who's with me?
    A wee bit if tension/conflict gets a ton more accomplished than any kumbaya moment ever has. I'm not against your yellow flag. But, I have to say this politics of modern egalitarianism is for the birds.

    I'm a fan of John Locke and political rights, though. People don't realize the difference.
    "Moral crusaders with zeal but no ethical understanding are likely to give us solutions that are worse than the problems."
    Charles Colson, How Now Shall We Live?



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