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Thread: J v P - does this work

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    Default J v P - does this work

    When there is a change of circumstances that throw your plans/expectations out of the window, do you easily adapt to the new circumstances or do you get very agitated before adapting?

    - I easily adapt (p)
    - I get very agitated before adapting (j)

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    Default Re: J v P - does this work

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    When there is a drastic and unexpected change of circumstances, do you easily adapt or do you get very agitated before adapting to the new circumstances?

    - I easily adapt (p)
    - I get very agitated before adapting (j)
    depends again: is the change an improvement or are things getting worse?

    Yes, I know, I'm a pain in the ass. But let's assume for now you're talking something "negative", then the answer is: if the change is directed against me, I get very agitated, if it is a crisis not directed against me, I get energized and welcome it as a challenge.
    The future of Socionics:
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    What do you mean by "not directed against me"?

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    it works for me. I'm pretty adaptable.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    I've changed the original post slightly.

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    I'll give you a description of what I see as a typical P-problem:

    When I moved into my new home, I needed a new washing machine, dishwasher, dryer and freezer. So I went shopping around. Now you need to know that I must have these items, but they are not exactly things I can get excited about, so I don't want to spend a lot of money. Now being Dutch and stuff, I want a good deal and buy all items at the same store, so I can negatiote a good bargain.

    The problem was, that whatever store I went, I could never get all 4 items in such a way that I could negotiate a price that was better than buying the 4 items in 4 different stores. This bugged me, because I wanted I good deal. I kept going back and forth to different stores, trying to figure out a good deal, but couldn't make up my mind. In total frustration, I finally ended up buying the items from second-hand internet sites. This was not what I wanted, but okay, it got my problem solved.

    The thing with P-types is that they will keep looking for additional information until they are abolutely sure they have it all to make a decision, and this need for information collection increases when frustrated.

    Perhaps this helps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    The thing with P-types is that they will keep looking for additional information until they are abolutely sure they have it all to make a decision, and this need for information collection increases when frustrated.
    I think this is related to the fact that you are type, rather than p type. I do the same as you. I'm INTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    What do you mean by "not directed against me"?
    If the change makes me suffer badly without leaving me the options to change anything about it. I am the master of my own destiny.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    The thing with P-types is that they will keep looking for additional information until they are abolutely sure they have it all to make a decision, and this need for information collection increases when frustrated.
    I think this is related to the fact that you are type, rather than p type. I do the same as you. I'm INTj.
    Okay, that's interesting, let me think about that...
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Depends on a lot of things.

    Again, very broad.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default Re: J v P - does this work

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    When there is a change of circumstances that throw your plans/expectations out of the window, do you easily adapt to the new circumstances or do you get very agitated before adapting?

    - I easily adapt (p)
    - I get very agitated before adapting (j)
    This is pretty good, except that the way it's phrased only shows the benefits of the p side. I think when worded this way, most people see themselves as adaptable. Every dichotomy is a tradeoff, and there are pros and cons to each side. Perhaps you could supplement the question with something like this: "When you're required to stick to a set plan, do you tend feel constrained by having to stick to the plan (even if you created it), or feel comfort in having a plan?"

    Of course, then again, Anndelise posted something suggesting a different point of view...that perhaps INTps feels less constricted by plans than, say, Alphas....

    The thing with P-types is that they will keep looking for additional information until they are abolutely sure they have it all to make a decision, and this need for information collection increases when frustrated.
    This is a very good description of the J/P dichotomy as described in MBTI. In MBTI, IP's are people with what MBTI sees as dominant introverted thinking or feeling. If one follows the Ij=IP/Ip=IJ view, one might hypothesize that Ijs in Socionics are P in the MBTI sense; however, that may not seem to work so well for ISTjs and ISFjs.

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    consentingadult wrote:
    The thing with P-types is that they will keep looking for additional information until they are abolutely sure they have it all to make a decision, and this need for information collection increases when frustrated.
    Hugo wrote:
    I think this is related to the fact that you are type, rather than p type. I do the same as you. I'm INTj.
    If that is true, then maybe you are not an INTj, Hugo. How do you know that you are not an INTp?

    Quote:
    The thing with P-types is that they will keep looking for additional information until they are abolutely sure they have it all to make a decision, and this need for information collection increases when frustrated.
    This is a very good description of the J/P dichotomy as described in MBTI.
    Yes, it's a good description of a part of the J/P dichotomy as described in MBTI. It is also a good description of the same part of the J/P dichotomy as indirectly described in Socionics by Sergei Ganin and Dmitri Lytov. Ganin's articles on his site are clearly consistent with this description, and Lytov's test questions are even more clearly consistent with it. There seems to be no difference in how Socionics and MBTI describe the actual behaviors of J and P types.

    In MBTI, IP's are people with what MBTI sees as dominant introverted thinking or feeling.
    Which is not the same thing as dominant or .

    If one follows the Ij=IP/Ip=IJ view, one might hypothesize that Ijs in Socionics are P in the MBTI sense
    My previous comment shows why that is a mistake.

    however, that may not seem to work so well for ISTjs and ISFjs.
    It doesn't work at all for them. And it doesn't work at all for ISTps and ISFps. Neither does it work for INXjs and INXps -- unless we suddenly make an exception for these types and re-define the J/P dichotomy completely in their case.

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    Don't mean to bring up 'old wounds' regarding the J/P thing; I'm just describing what I'm hearing people say.

    The idea of INTjs showing P-like attributes just won't go away easily on the forum, or in Socionics literature. The quadra descriptions and functional descriptions that lead in that direction are ubiquitous in Socionics, even as the Socionics understanding of rational/irrational leads in the opposite direction. Hence, the contradictions are "built in" to the system.

    For those that want to believe that IP-like behavior doesn't correlate directly with Ip or Ij, there are numerous possible solutions. One is to postulate that and both have a tendency to lead to J-like behaviors, making the "IPs" INTj, INFp, ISFp, and ISTp.

    I'm not saying that's necessarily so; I'm just playing Devil's advocate.

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    Hmm. That's hard because I usually don't mind the change of plans unless I looked forward to it or I am going out of my way for that plan but usually, I don't mind which is why at first I thought I was P.

    People keep saying it's the way you think.

    So...like with relationships, do you like closure or you like to keep things wide open, thrown to the wind or something, have like five messy, opened relationships or do you like to definite each relationship to death...
    INFP

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    I would say the I**J types probably have the most difficult time adapting but they will do so if you explain it to them, give them motivation, then leave them alone to make the decision themselves.

    There are some situations as a 'p' type I don't adapt well to. Like being stuck in a place with strict rules and schedules or being in an environment that I felt a great deal of unnecessary rules. I will adapt, but I won't be all that happy doing it and will slip up at the first opportunity (sometimes on purpose).

    Because of my personailty, in situations like that, I will actually try to change the situation to adapt to me and if I can't, will eventually leave it.
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    Don't mean to bring up 'old wounds' regarding the J/P thing; I'm just describing what I'm hearing people say.
    Yeah, I know.

    The idea of INTjs showing P-like attributes just won't go away easily on the forum, or in Socionics literature.
    I agree with your general way of seeing it. I'm just trying my best to re-phrase the arguments so that maybe those who have such ideas eventually will start seeing what's wrong with them.

    The quadra descriptions and functional descriptions that lead in that direction are ubiquitous in Socionics, even as the Socionics understanding of rational/irrational leads in the opposite direction. Hence, the contradictions are "built in" to the system.
    Yes, clearly so. And for some obscure reason I don't like contradictions.

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    Default Re: J v P - does this work

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    When there is a change of circumstances that throw your plans/expectations out of the window, do you easily adapt to the new circumstances or do you get very agitated before adapting?

    - I easily adapt (p)
    - I get very agitated before adapting (j)
    Was it meant to be fun? If yes then I get very agitated. If it was something I didn't really want to do it in the first place, I easily adapt.
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    Default Re: J v P - does this work

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Was it meant to be fun? If yes then I get very agitated. If it was something I didn't really want to do it in the first place, I easily adapt.
    Which is consistent with Rational behavior IMO.
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Yeah possible. "Really pissed" can be freely used instea of "Nervous", too
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    Default Re: J v P - does this work

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    - I get very agitated before adapting (j)
    Yes, I do. And it has been a life-long stress causer for me. It's really hard for me to accept an inevitable adaptation. Sometimes (actually, probably most of the time) I try to manipulate the circumstences to see if I can still get my expectations (or some of them) realized and avoid the addaptation, even when it's 99% for certain that I 'll have to adapt and let go of my hopes.

    Is this suggesting that I might be a J type???
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    I think that the Rational/Irrational distinction is too difficult to accurately represent in a minimalist description of one or two sentences, it is too open to individual interpretations according to specific situations. That is why I think that the EP vs IJ or EJ vs IP is probably the best you can do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
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    Default Re: J v P - does this work

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    When there is a change of circumstances that throw your plans/expectations out of the window, do you easily adapt to the new circumstances or do you get very agitated before adapting?

    - I easily adapt (p)
    - I get very agitated before adapting (j)
    According to this, I'm a j.
    [Stormy] [LII]

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    Rational - Acts by "rules"
    Irrational - Acts by "moods"

    I can't quite precisely define those terms at the moment though. The idea came from a combination of the rat/irr description on Rick's site and some of Smilex's Te socionics.

    Combined with E/I...
    Extravert - Influenced by the "external environment"
    Introvert - Influenced by the "internal environment"
    ...we get:

    EJ: "Rules" effected (yes, I do mean "effected" and not "affected") by the "external environment"
    IJ: "Rules" effected by the "internal environment"
    EP: "Moods" effected by the "external environment"
    IP: "Moods" effected by the "internal environment"


    This really isn't very useful for a test, though. I'm barely (if at all) communicating my thoughts here. I find it unlikely it could be used to produce a question that would be understood precisely enough not to wedge in actions that don't belong into the classification.

    The adapt/frustration method doesn't quite work though. A rational can adapt by having "rules" in place that consider the contingency. An irrational may have a "mood" that makes them a bit frustrated not to handle something a certain way, or more likely, being forced to handle something in a specific way.
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