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Thread: Ne-Ego vs. Si-Ego

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    Default Ne-Ego vs. Si-Ego

    How do you tell the difference between the two?

    I'm judicious, irrational and ethical, yet can't relate to the expressiveness of Fe (even when it comes to Fe-creatives, the difference is obvious and I can't really gloss over it), so based on this, the only feasible option seems to be IEE (Fi-subtype). At the same time, I don't have the same energized, tangential speaking style that they do. I tend to be pretty straightforward when answering questions and don't have much of an imagination when it comes to imagining alternative possibilities. The difference is clear when I communicate with my ENTp therapist, who seems to always be attuned to these possibilities that I either wouldn't notice otherwise, or view as irrelevant. My movements are also sluggish and I have a strong awareness/control of my body, posture, movements, etc., which would perhaps point to Si. So where does this leave me?

    I promised myself that I would quit obsessing over the typing process, but ehh, I'm hooked. :/
    @aisa @anndelise @Reficulris
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-20-2014 at 04:15 AM.

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    Well, IEE would still have quite a bit of Fe influence. As much as Ne's.
    And SEI still have quite a bit of Fi influence. As much as Si's.

    Have you looked at the cognitive styles?
    (I cant multitask when writing a post on my iPain, so will edit in a link for ya.)

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko
    Try comparing the algorithmic vs holographic styles of thinking.
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    Another thing to look at is hidden agenda vs polr.
    SEI's mobilizing (hidden agenda) function is Ti, which is IEE's polr.
    And opposite with Te.

    So look at which one mobilizes you, that you add to your reasoning process, and which one you feel insecure or avoidant over.
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    Hmm.

    Te as Vulnerable Function

    That is manifested as a skepticism and dislike for basing your beliefs, arguments, and actions on external sources of information. For instance, a SEI will rather trust the expertise of someone who seems to have hands-on experience, even if limited, than of someone who demonstrates to have read many books on the same subject. IEIs will base their opinions and views on their own personal insights and be, again, skeptical of "second-hand" factual information that contradicts it. "Don't trust everything you read" is a typical sneer of this function, especially when applied to sources of information otherwise seen as neutral and reliable, such as encyclopedias and handbooks. Another manifestation is a dislike for dealing with issues involving efficiency, productivity, and factual accuracy of statements made; statements are made according to input from other functions, not from double-checks against external facts which are seen as of lesser relevance to the issue at hand. Types with this function lack confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources.

    Te as Mobilizing Function

    The individual is keen on accumulating factual knowledge on subjects of personal interest and those that help him be more efficient and productive, but he's often unsure of his ability to find and select the correct information and is therefore attracted to people whom he sees as competent in that area and reassure him.


    Ti as Vulnerable Function

    The individual has a tendency to either completely reject or completely embrace a source of theoretical knowledge, but does not like to reveal the source or his adherence to it. He prefers to limit the number of theoretical categories he works with and tends to see new terminology, systems, and rules as being arbitrary and unnecessary until he at last discovers their necessity for himself through extensive personal experience. He may be able to express his views clearly when given the time, but he is not prepared to deal with people who challenge his views and draw him into logical arguments and disputes. For this reason, he is reluctant to publicize new determinations and opinions until he is absolutely sure that they are right and that he can support them thoroughly to anyone who challenges them.

    Ti as Mobilizing Function

    The individual seeks clarity in his system of beliefs and understanding and enjoys entertaining new concepts and being included in philosophical discussions where new concepts and systems of thought are introduced. He is uncertain of the logical clarity backing his actions, and thus seeks external assistance in attaining a degree of reasonable competence in this realm. Structure is sought as more of a means to an end, a background guide to facilitate the growth of the individual's main goal.


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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Well, IEE would still have quite a bit of Fe influence. As much as Ne's.
    And SEI still have quite a bit of Fi influence. As much as Si's.

    Have you looked at the cognitive styles?
    (I cant multitask when writing a post on my iPain, so will edit in a link for ya.)

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko
    Try comparing the algorithmic vs holographic styles of thinking.
    Thanks, can't really tell which one I relate more to though. It's kind of confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    The bolded part sort of strikes me as ironic. You made a post considering alternative possibilities about your type, while saying you don't imagine alternative possibilities.

    Your posting style seems more IEE. IEEs can often see and understand different sides of their personality, different strengths and weaknesses, which can make self-typing more difficult for them sometimes. I wouldn't worry about static definitions like 'energized, tangential speaking style', especially since IEE can be incredibly laid-back, sometimes even appearing more introverted.


    I'm not sure telling yourself not to obsess over socionics will help, as it does have a pestering addictiveness, doesn't it? And it appears you're only a couple months in, if you joined the site as soon as you started studying it. But just keep in the back of your mind that as time goes on, your type becomes clearer and clearer. The more you post, the more your natural thought process will come out, and the easier it will be for others to type you. So there's no rush really. Just enjoy the journey of self-discovery.

    If you want to speed up the process of us typing you, you could make a video, answer a questionaire, etc. But you'll know your type eventually anyway, so no worries.

    To try to help by answering the question, I say it's generally easy to identify an Si-Ego since they are very attuned to details. We tend to remember things catalogically (is that a word?), delving into specifics, have a great memory for facts, but can sometimes struggle with change and can have a negative tendency to get stuck in a rut. Ne-Egos tend to see groups of things together, can digest greater amounts of information quickly, can see the potential in things and how they change, but can sometimes struggle with the real-world implementation of their grand ideas or how they would impact other people's lives specifically.

    I'm sure others can help with better ways of identifying the differences, and you can read the theory and learn more, but just remember it's a process, and you'll know your type eventually anyway, so no need to obsess.
    If what I have is Ne/valued-intuition, then it's pretty underwhelming.

    As for the second bolded part, I relate a bit more to the former than the latter. I'm not sure I really have any grand ideas.
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-20-2014 at 06:52 AM.

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    Note, I will try a few (4)different methods, so pick the one you prefer, and start from there.

     

    Which element do you feel suppresses your natural inclinations more, Se or Ni?

    For myself, I can see that while I tend to avoid Se unless pushed into it, I'll step into using it for a short time (10-30min).
    But when I talk with Ni base people, it feels like there is a conflict between me considering other possibilities, other ways of viewing something/situation, other ways of doing something, other possible meanings or something, and hesitating to settle on one, vs the Ni telling me that this is the one true way to view it, this is the one true meaning, they too often completely dismiss the other alternatives and try to...well, i know they don't mean to, but it feels like they are trying to force me to stop looking at the other alternatives because they have already determined for themselves that this is the only or best one. I feel stifled around them.

    I don't feel stifled around Se base people, miscommunications yeah, different mindsets yeah, arguments maybe, but I generally don't feel like they are actively stifling me. (Only when they ask of me to provide them with 'the one true way'.)

    So, which do you avoid but if pressured will switch to but then quickly switch back to normal, (role),
    And which do you feel actively stifles you, or that you feel "misses the point", (ignoring).



     
    check out this reinin method. http://zhilkin.com/socio/en/
    Clicking on 'reaonable' (judicious), ethical, and irrational, (your OP assertions) you're left with SEI and IEE as the only options. Carefree is a given on those two, too.

    Which of the other options would most likely suit you, AND, which is most definitely not applicable to you?
    Note: the cool thing imo about the reinin calulator is that not all of them need to fit strongly, some may be half and half. And so gives interesting variations to even the same type. Subtypes, basically. So try this with the view in mind of what subtype of "judicious, irrational, ethical" might you be? Rather than which type you might be. So please let me know, even if your answers conflict with each other.



     

    Which dual or semi-dual partner would you prefer? NeTi/NeFi vs SiFe/SiTe?



     
    Technically these are job interview type questions, but I think the answers can make for an idea of what type of info you more easily use or aim for.

    Think about a problem you faced resently. Work, personal, interpersonal, etc.
    Now answer the following questions for that problem.
    Problem:
    What was the problem you faced?
    According to you, what were the basic issues?
    Action:
    What did you do to resolve the problem?
    What actions did you take?
    Results:
    What observable results were there?
    Changes in Behavior? Numbers? Other?

    Which parts were easy for you?
    Which parts were difficult for you?
    Which parts were you confident in?
    Which parts were you unsure about or less confident in?

    Note: If you want to, answer for an additional 1-2 problems you've dealt with.


    Please don't feel a need to do all the above. Pick one, and we can try going from there. Or...ignore it all if you'd prefer.
    Last edited by anndelise; 03-20-2014 at 09:49 AM.
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    @Suedehead tbh after reading this thread my head is spinning too, lol. You hit on sth that I was wondering about myself. Was considering IEE briefly but then looking at Quadra values if I decide on Alpha then I'm left with SEI and LII, SEI seems a better fit. Although I did wonder if I am a subdued ILE or sth. ESE is just out of the question, just don't see it in me, no way I have this "motherly" aura. So there you have it - once you start wondering if you're a Ne ego - I'm useless and of no help, but pls tag me anyway cause I'd like to observe the journey (might learn sth in the process too myself).

    @anndelise would you say that if one feels like dying inside when forced to give up creativity, "grand" idealistic ideas and/or stops believing it to be of worth and focuses on other things/functions - this could be a sign of Ne in ego being under pressure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by aisa View Post
    @anndelise would you say that if one feels like dying inside when forced to give up creativity, "grand" idealistic ideas and/or stops believing it to be of worth and focuses on other things/functions - this could be a sign of Ne in ego being under pressure?
    What are you being told to ignore? to focus on? By whom?

    "Creativity" isn't limited to a specific element being in the ego field.
    Creativity comes from being generative...as in breaking things down into components (Xe) and reconnecting those components (Xi) into something else. Those components can be abstract, concrete, logical, emotive, static, dynamic, etc. Same with how we reconnect them. Being a photographer uses different creativity than being a carver, than being a fiction writer, than discovering a scientifical something, than helping someone solve a personal problem. But they all require the generativeness known as creativity.

    -----

    Ni/Se can both feel like they are applying pressure to IEE's Ne. Some of this applies to SEI, too. They both want you to stop being judicious and be more decisive. Make up your mind, stop being so wishy washy, choose one and act on it, everything you've done is because you chose to do it before doing it (rather than being simply reactive), etc. (please keep in mind this is from -Ne pov, not from Ni/Se pov.)

    One, however, is easier to ignore than the other. For IEE, Ni is already a strong function and subconsciously influences their reasonong process. But they see Ni as ignoring the other possibilities. And for IEE, you just can't outright ignore those possbilities or alternatives without more information that dismisses them as possibilities/alternatives. So, Ne ignores Ni pressure right back.

    But Se pressure..we know it's something we need to improve in. It's useful to be skilled at, but it's difficult to get skilled at it, and when we try, we are clumsy at it, or worse, aggressive regarding it. For a fuller idea of Se Role for IEE, there's a fairly recent thread in delta about Se Role, and how other IEE feel/think about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    Thanks, can't really tell which one I relate more to though. It's kind of confusing.
    That is because, by definition, accurate self-knowledge is quite difficult. Therefore, self-typing is also a much more difficult process than typing other people:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-i-am-iee.html

    So one way of figuring out your type, could be by typing your intertype relations with other people. E.g. you say you have an ILE therapist. If you are really confident about his/her type, than you already have some possibilities: If you are IEE, you should have many moments where you notice similarities in thinking processes and conclusions, many aha-moments or "that makes perfect sense/why didn't I think of this myself" moments, while at the same time being charmed by their somewhat social clumsyness. If, on the other hand, you are SEI, what he or she says should make all pieces of the puzzle fit together, and activate you into action. If you are SLI (which I think you are), you will be surprised (and perhaps entertained) by the insights he/she provided, highly valuing these insights, but somehow this will not engage you into action.

    Another way of getting a clue about your type is, as Anndelise suggested, by means of the Mobilizing Function. But this only works if you use it often use this function:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-function.html

    You could ask yourself: in which way do I fish for compliments or acceptance? E.g. often IEEs will try to come off as people who have a lot of factual knowledge (Te), while at the same time it is obvious to onlookers that they are violating the rules of a logically sound understanding of the matter, the positivist aspects of knowledge (Ti). An SEI will try to gain acceptance for their quite "silly" understanding of how things (systems) work (Ti), while at the same time neglecting Te aspects, e.g. they ignore that they don't actually have the factual knowledge that warrants the claimed understanding of things. SLIs often try to be friendly, helpful people (Fi) in order to gain acceptance, but often forget to use the non-practical aspects to interaction (Fe) as a way of building relationships, they unknowingly tend to ignore other people's feelings, which makes matters worse relationwise.

    In fact, it is no use to ask yourself: ask your friends instead!
    Last edited by consentingadult; 03-20-2014 at 04:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    What are you being told to ignore? to focus on? By whom?

    "Creativity" isn't limited to a specific element being in the ego field.
    Creativity comes from being generative...as in breaking things down into components (Xe) and reconnecting those components (Xi) into something else. Those components can be abstract, concrete, logical, emotive, static, dynamic, etc. Same with how we reconnect them. Being a photographer uses different creativity than being a carver, than being a fiction writer, than discovering a scientifical something, than helping someone solve a personal problem. But they all require the generativeness known as creativity.
    I was reffering to past events - I'll PM you later if that's ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aisa View Post
    I was reffering to past events - I'll PM you later if that's ok.
    Anytime.
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    @anndelise

    Which element do you feel suppresses your natural inclinations more, Se or Ni?

    For myself, I can see that while I tend to avoid Se unless pushed into it, I'll step into using it for a short time (10-30min).
    But when I talk with Ni base people, it feels like there is a conflict between me considering other possibilities, other ways of viewing something/situation, other ways of doing something, other possible meanings or something, and hesitating to settle on one, vs the Ni telling me that this is the one true way to view it, this is the one true meaning, they too often completely dismiss the other alternatives and try to...well, i know they don't mean to, but it feels like they are trying to force me to stop looking at the other alternatives because they have already determined for themselves that this is the only or best one. I feel stifled around them.

    I don't feel stifled around Se base people, miscommunications yeah, different mindsets yeah, arguments maybe, but I generally don't feel like they are actively stifling me. (Only when they ask of me to provide them with 'the one true way'.)

    So, which do you avoid but if pressured will switch to but then quickly switch back to normal, (role),
    And which do you feel actively stifles you, or that you feel "misses the point", (ignoring).
    The Ni situation doesn't really sound that bad. I don't think I feel that level attachment to ideas or possibilities, it's just whatever. I don't find it antithetical or anything.

    I'm not sure I've had much experience with Se-egos, but if one were to 'push' me, it probably wouldn't be a big deal..
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-20-2014 at 09:54 PM.

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    @anndelise

    check out this reinin method. http://zhilkin.com/socio/en/
    Clicking on 'reaonable' (judicious), ethical, and irrational, (your OP assertions) you're left with SEI and IEE as the only options. Carefree is a given on those two, too.

    Which of the other options would most likely suit you, AND, which is most definitely not applicable to you?
    Note: the cool thing imo about the reinin calulator is that not all of them need to fit strongly, some may be half and half. And so gives interesting variations to even the same type. Subtypes, basically. So try this with the view in mind of what subtype of "judicious, irrational, ethical" might you be? Rather than which type you might be. So please let me know, even if your answers conflict with each other.
    I guess I'll start from scratch.

    Static<Dynamic
    Negativist>Positivist
    Asking>Declaring
    Strategic>Tactical
    Constructive=Emotive
    Rational<Irrational
    Process<Result
    Yielding>Obstinate
    Carefree>Farsighted
    Reasonable>Decisive
    Subjective=Objective
    Aristocratic>Democratic
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-21-2014 at 03:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That is because, by definition, accurate self-knowledge is quite difficult. Therefore, self-typing is also a much more difficult process than typing other people:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-i-am-iee.html

    So one way of figuring out your type, could be by typing your intertype relations with other people. E.g. you say you have an ILE therapist. If you are really confident about his/her type, than you already have some possibilities: If you are IEE, you should have many moments where you notice similarities in thinking processes and conclusions, many aha-moments or "that makes perfect sense/why didn't I think of this myself" moments, while at the same time being charmed by their somewhat social clumsyness. If, on the other hand, you are SEI, what he or she says should make all pieces of the puzzle fit together, and activate you into action. If you are SLI (which I think you are), you will be surprised (and perhaps entertained) by the insights he/she provided, highly valuing these insights, but somehow this will not engage you into action.

    Another way of getting a clue about your type is, as Anndelise suggested, by means of the Mobilizing Function. But this only works if you use it often use this function:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-function.html

    You could ask yourself: in which way do I fish for compliments or acceptance? E.g. often IEEs will try to come off as people who have a lot of factual knowledge (Te), while at the same time it is obvious to onlookers that they are violating the rules of a logically sound understanding of the matter, the positivist aspects of knowledge (Ti). An SEI will try to gain acceptance for their quite "silly" understanding of how things (systems) work (Ti), while at the same time neglecting Te aspects, e.g. they ignore that they don't actually have the factual knowledge that warrants the claimed understanding of things. SLIs often try to be friendly, helpful people (Fi) in order to gain acceptance, but often forget to use the non-practical aspects to interaction (Fe) as a way of building relationships, they unknowingly tend to ignore other people's feelings, which makes matters worse relationwise.

    In fact, it is no use to ask yourself: ask your friends instead!
    More like the SEI/SLI experience.

    I can see Te-HA in my forum behavior (sharing music, films I've seen, etc.), but not so much IRL. Can you give a specific example of what an xEI using mobilizing Ti would look like?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    More like the SEI/SLI experience.

    I can see Te-HA in my forum behavior (sharing music, films I've seen, etc.), but not so much IRL. Can you give a specific example of what an xEI using mobilizing Ti would look like?
    It is difficult to give an example, because such an example should be more about style than about content. But to make a long story short: xEIs can come up with "theories" about phenomena which appear to be totally made up to the external observer. This usually is pretty harmless. Another way this manifests in especially SEIs, is that they are inclined to "lie the truth": they will tell things that are not true (e.g. things that happened), but it is not a purposeful kind of lying: the problem is that they constructed a "truth" they themselves believe in (but it has no empirical basis). However, such lies/truths can nevertheless be harmful for social relationships, because such lies/truths can be interpreted as slanderous/libelous by the people that are the subjects of such lies/truths.

    Not a very good example, since the average SEI does not recognize this as something applicable to themselves. As any other type when it concerns their PoLR.

    ETA: sharing music, films etc. is not so much Te-Mobilizing. Te-mobilizing is often about trying to appear e.g. intellectual or wise. Like I said: difficult to explain, because it is more about style/form than about content.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 03-21-2014 at 12:53 AM.
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    Here is an excellent example of Mobilizing-Ti (the post itself, not what the post is talking about):

    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    So, I'm trying to find out if I understood the functions correctly. Sometimes I stumble upon people who tell me something that reminds me of things I read about functions.

    For example: I know a guy who talked about his dream of becoming a car designer. He actually wants to build the whole car himself. He said it doesn't necessarily have to be a car, he just wants to create something, have an idea and put it into reality. Of course he meant a machine or something like that. But he wants to manufacture it all for himself and make it work.
    I guess some computer game developers have the same insane idea of creating a game all by themselves and some actually do so.
    I'm kind of fascinated by that.

    So, is this connected to Ti? What do you think?
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    @consentingadult: So, does that mean, because of mobilizing Ti I "come up with "theories" about phenomena which appear to be totally made up to the external observer"???
    I guess I have to check my bachelor thesis twice and let others read through it to see, whether the ramblings of my weird mind and the connections I made can be comprehensibly traced.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    @consentingadult: So, does that mean, because of mobilizing Ti I "come up with "theories" about phenomena which appear to be totally made up to the external observer"???
    I guess I have to check my bachelor thesis twice and let others read through it to see, whether the ramblings of my weird mind and the connections I made can be comprehensibly traced.
    Even IEEs with their Ti PoLRs can do Ti if properly trained and the subject matter is not too complicated. I had to learn myself the hard way to back up my own scientific essays in a Ti way, and that a brilliant Ne/Te insight does not satisfy scientific demands

    But since you are so smart, why didn't you see yourself that the situation you described, is not type related at all? It makes perfect sense: in the absence of accurate knowledge (Te), IEIs are inclined to fabricate theories.
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