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Thread: Ethical types: How do you feel about lyrics written by artists who value a different ethical function?

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    suedehead's Avatar
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    Default Ethical types: How do you feel about lyrics written by artists who value a different ethical function?

    Let's say ay you're a Beta NF, for example...how do you feel when listening to music/lyrics written by a Delta NF, or a Gamma SF? To what extent do you resonate with the content? I'm aware that this probably isn't type-related and depends more on individual taste, but I thought it'd be a (semi-)interesting topic to delve into nonetheless...

    While I appreciate a lot of music made by INFj's, I find the lyrical content a bit...tiring, and even repetitive after a while. I have to be in a specific mood for alot of it.
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-12-2014 at 04:23 AM.

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    Cinema is a different story - I find it easy to empathize with the ethical dilemmas that are presented in Kurosawa, Rohmer, and Kobayashi films, although I find films by other Delta directors I've followed a bit hit-or-miss, like any director's oeuvre...

    When I compare these films to those of Beta NFs like Ingmar Bergman, however, I can't help but feel as if there's a certain spontaneity of passion and emotional expression (which Bergman strives on) that's often lacking in a lot of more Fi-oriented films. They seem to have more of a preference for understatement, which although interesting in it's own right, can often feel stagnant if it isn't executed properly.
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-12-2014 at 04:58 AM.

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    Forget what you've heard about the types of the respective authors of these two sonnets. Based solely on their words, can you tell which is Beta and which is Delta?

    No longer mourn for me when I am dead
    Than you shall hear the surly sudden bell
    Give warning to the world that I am fled
    From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell:
    Nay, if you read this line, remember not
    The hand that write it; for I love you so
    That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot
    If thinking on me then should make you woe.
    O, if, I say, you look upon this verse
    When I perhaps compounded am with clay,
    Do not so much as my poor name rehearse,
    But let your love even with my life decay,
    Lest the wise world should look into your moan
    And mock you with me after I am gone.

    Bright star, would I were stedfast as thou art---
    Not in lone splendour hung aloft the night
    And watching, with eternal lids apart,
    Like nature's patient, sleepless Eremite,
    The moving waters at their priestlike task
    Of pure ablution round earth's human shores,
    Or gazing on the new soft-fallen mask
    Of snow upon the mountains and the moors---
    No---yet still stedfast, still unchangeable,
    Pillowed upon my fair love's ripening breast,
    To feel for ever its soft fall and swell,
    Awake for ever in a sweet unrest,
    Still, still to hear her tender-taken breath,
    And so live ever---or else swoon in death.


    As for my favorite, I can't choose. Each one is beautiful and striking in its own way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Chesney View Post
    Forget what you've heard about the types of the respective authors of these two sonnets. Based solely on their words, can you tell which is Beta and which is Delta?

    No longer mourn for me when I am dead
    Than you shall hear the surly sudden bell
    Give warning to the world that I am fled
    From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell:
    Nay, if you read this line, remember not
    The hand that write it; for I love you so
    That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot
    If thinking on me then should make you woe.
    O, if, I say, you look upon this verse
    When I perhaps compounded am with clay,
    Do not so much as my poor name rehearse,
    But let your love even with my life decay,
    Lest the wise world should look into your moan
    And mock you with me after I am gone.

    Bright star, would I were stedfast as thou art---
    Not in lone splendour hung aloft the night
    And watching, with eternal lids apart,
    Like nature's patient, sleepless Eremite,
    The moving waters at their priestlike task
    Of pure ablution round earth's human shores,
    Or gazing on the new soft-fallen mask
    Of snow upon the mountains and the moors---
    No---yet still stedfast, still unchangeable,
    Pillowed upon my fair love's ripening breast,
    To feel for ever its soft fall and swell,
    Awake for ever in a sweet unrest,
    Still, still to hear her tender-taken breath,
    And so live ever---or else swoon in death.


    As for my favorite, I can't choose. Each one is beautiful and striking in its own way.
    You are right. They are both beautiful. The first is Beta and the second is Delta.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Olduvai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    You are right. They are both beautiful. The first is Beta and the second is Delta.
    hah, I was thinking the exact opposite

    but who knows

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    i want to respond to this thread but i'm having trouble of thinking of specific examples.

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    @ Lungs I was having a hard time thinking of examples as well, but I finally thought of Incubus. They seem alpha. Their music feels light and fun to me. Really enjoyable escapism. Love Hurts is interesting because it is a picture of how an alpha infantile might feel about cares of growing older. (I like it because it is a tiny bit angsty.) Compare it to a more straightforward alpha song like Wish You Were Here.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K_bQ80xZNwI Love Hurts

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8295rOMvtQI Wish You Were Here

    Great topic!
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Mostly I listen to alpha and beta music, I guess. Now I have to think of an example of a gamma or delta artist.

    I saw Suzanne Vega being typed gamma, Fi-ESFp or something like that. But an Fi-valuer. And I love her songs. So I take one of hers as an example.



    The way of the world
    Has taken its toll
    Ravaged my body
    And bitten my soul

    I am ruined by rain
    Weathered by wind
    I've been invaded
    Without and within

    And I ask
    I am asking you
    Asking you if you
    Might still want me.

    Once you said
    I'm made of fine stuff.
    But I've been corrupted.
    And taken enough.

    Now you appear.
    Making your claim.
    Inside my heart
    Is the sign of your name.

    And I ask
    I am asking you
    Asking you if you
    Might still want me?

    All these words
    Like darling and angel and dear
    Crowd my mouth
    In a path to your ear.
    The way of the world
    Has taken it's toll
    Ravaged my body
    Bitten my soul

    And I ask
    I am asking you
    Asking you if you
    Might still want me?

    When I said:
    I am bound to you forever
    Here's what I meant:
    I am bound to you forever.


    That song has a religious undertone in my ears. Similarly to the Song of Songs or something like that. She probably only means it as a love song, maybe even plays with some phrases that almost sound biblical. There are many love songs, that have that religious undertone. "Nothing without you" by Vienna Teng (not sure whether beta or gamma) is one of those songs or "In your Eyes" by Peter Gabriel, though that is of course beta music.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    otoh..
    i like bright eyes lyrics (IEI). i think more for the Ni but its blocked with Fe, so.
    ingrid michaelson ive seen typed LIE but her music is too sappy and light for me. but i don't know if she writes her own songs
    but bob dylan is good (ESI)
    fiona apple is great ..i also put her in my quadra but she's more commonly typed IEI.
    i relate a LOT to the lyrics of jenny lewis (EII)
    david bazan <3 (xLI)

    i can't think of any alphas...

    its looking like i prefer Fi unless theres lots of Ni to make up for it but i don't know what i'm forgetting.

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    For Fi-valuers, who need examples for lyrics:

    Artists that I consider to be great lyricists and good examples for Beta lyrics:

    Peter Gabriel - Most likely Beta NF => songs I can relate the most to: "Darkness", "Make Tomorrow", "Mercy Street", "Downside Up", "Signal to Noise"
    Vienna Teng - Probably also Beta NF, her great idol is Tori Amos who is mostly typed as IEI => songs with the most awesome lyrics: "Eric's Song", "Watershed", "Recessional", "My Medea", "Stray Italian Greyhound"



    Would be interested how an Fi-valuer feels about the lyrics of that song.

    Or this one (probably a better example):

    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    Off the top of my head...

    Beta

    Radiohead
    Morrissey (?)
    Fiona Apple
    Cat Power

    Gamma

    Bob Dylan
    Kanye West
    Frank Ocean


    Delta

    Panda Bear (Animal Collective)
    Nuetral Milk Hotel
    Peter Bjorn and John


    Alpha

    Sybille Baier (?)
    Bjork
    Bon Iver (?)

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    ILI lyrics can be good, like in Kent or Nine Inch Nails. But it feels a bit like hit or miss to me. Sometimes it's good or even beautiful, other times it sounds to me a bit too pretentious an complaining.

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    i don't really have any comments on how i relate to... Fe music because i've never thought about it. based on the music i listen to however (last.fm top 50 or so):

    Delta
    Neutral Milk Hotel (Jeff Mangum - EII, Julian Koster - EII, the other two are ILI and possible SLI)
    The Kinks (Ray Davies - IEE, not sure about everyone else but band in general has Delta-vibes)
    Paul Baribeau (EII)
    Tiger Trap (this whole band, and the entire twee movement, is IEE)
    Belle and Sebastian (Stuart Murdoch - SLI)
    Fugazi (Delta ST)
    The Mountain Goats (John Darnielle - IEE)
    Andrew Jackson Jihad
    Kid Cudi (IEE)

    Alpha:
    Broken Social Scene (very Alpha-heavy, although the Metric crew is Beta and Brendan Canning is SLI)
    Stars (Torquil Campbell - ILE, Amy Millan - ESE)
    The Beatles (SEI, SEI, ILE, LII, guess who is who)
    My Bloody Valentine (mayyyybe Delta)
    Weezer (LII emo mopey rage)
    Radiohead (SEI emo mopey rage)
    And So I Watch You From Afar (math-rock = alpha)
    King Crimson (Alpha orgy)

    Beta:
    Of Montreal (Kevin Barnes - IEI)
    Liz Phair (EIE)
    The Velvet Underground (just the art-school Aquagraph-like ethic that has beta vibes)
    Pearl Jam (?)
    Burial (IEI)
    Alcest (IEI)

    Gamma:
    Rural Alberta Advantage (all the band members are gamma i think)
    Eels (E - ILI)
    Minutemen (two out of three members gamma, ILI bassist and SEE guitarist)
    Kanye West (SEE)
    Squarepusher (ILI)
    Bat For Lashes (SEE)
    David Bazan (ILI)

    Not sure:
    The Microphones (no idea)
    Carissa's Wierd (inclined to say Beta)
    The Pixies (Delta/Gamma)
    The Smiths (??? Aristocratic)
    Nick Drake
    Boredoms (Alpha/Beta)
    Sonic Youth (Alpha/Beta)
    Boyracer

    i guess i listen to a lot of delta music.

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    The Smiths/Morrissey seems more (melo)dramatic than Delta, yet at the same time the lyrics and general aesthetic seem kind of...prim, whereas Beta music strikes me as being somewhat 'rough around the edges' in comparison. Then again, most of my experience with Beta music has been through INFp songwriters, assuming Morrissey is EIE-Ni.
    Last edited by suedehead; 03-13-2014 at 11:11 PM.

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    This kind of illustrates the discrepancy I'm seeing between Morrissey and some other Beta artists.


    Last edited by suedehead; 03-13-2014 at 11:13 PM.

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    ^ I get what you mean. Morrissey appears to be Beta NF on the surface, but he has this haughty pretentiousness in his lyrics that brings to mind Delta NFs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    based on the music i listen to however (last.fm top 50 or so):
    oh hey this is a good idea. i never pay attn to my last.fm anymore cuz i have so much trouble getting music on to my phone blah blah 1st world problems.

    lol..just finished. maybe all the Fe/Ti and alpha musicians are in the "dunno" section????? or maybe i just favor gamma/beta typings for the musicians i like.


    alpha
    --

    beta
    Crystal Castles
    Yeah Yeah Yeahs
    Nirvana
    Liz Phair
    Jeff Buckley
    The Killers
    Garbage

    gamma
    The Black Keys
    Bob Dylan
    The Distillers
    Santigold
    Dan Auerbach
    Down
    Interpol
    Adele
    Florence + the Machine
    Grimes

    delta
    Rilo Kiley
    Jenny Lewis with The Watson Twins

    Fi/Te
    David Bazan
    Pixies
    The Kills
    The Dead Weather
    Lykke Li

    Fe/Ti
    --

    Ne/Si both ethical fxs
    Bikini Kill (if kathleen hanna wrote all the lyrics, then delta. but idk)
    Le Tigre

    dunno
    Bloc Party
    Sleigh Bells
    The Smashing Pumpkins (beta?)
    The Cure
    The Smiths
    Cults
    Lydia
    Gonjasufi (delta?)
    Joy Division (Ni/Se)
    Brand New
    M.I.A.
    The Like
    Sol Seppy (VIs SEE but idk)
    Fleet Foxes
    And So I Watch You From Afar
    Franz Ferdinand
    Metric
    Massive Attack
    God Is An Astronaut
    Placebo
    The White Stripes (gamma?)
    Xiu Xiu
    Queens of the Stone Age (delta?)
    LCD Soundsystem (alpha?)

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    I could actually see David Bazan as Fi/Te

    good job lungs

    Red and yellow
    Black and white
    Are precious in his sight
    But who he roots for in a fight
    Thats how i remember
    So every time i find a girl
    Beaten, gagged and bound
    I let her go and write it down

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    This kind of illustrates the discrepancy I'm seeing between Morrissey and some other Beta artists.
    Morrissey is so/sp 3w4 - there is a lot of "hauteur" and "finesse" that is encoded in this combination, which would, of course, conflict with the "rougher" Beta stereotypes. Often enough the traces and expressions etched in someone's personality by their enneagram + stacking combination are more striking and easy to note than the expressions of their socionics TIM, which is like that needle in a haystack of all the other information coming from a person.

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    I find any music too specific to a life event, political beliefs, or a particular feeling to be off-putting and tiresome. Take for example Eddie Vedder's remake of "Here's to the State of ______":



    I absolutely love Pearl Jam as a band, but I cannot share in songs, often my solo artists, that are so narrow in its focus.

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    I really appreciate music that is emotionally deep, but it open to interpretation and is more thematic than declarative. This may be one reason why I often prefer an instrumental melody, as opposed to one that is lyrically based. Anyone else similar in that regards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Chesney View Post
    Forget what you've heard about the types of the respective authors of these two sonnets. Based solely on their words, can you tell which is Beta and which is Delta?

    No longer mourn for me when I am dead
    Than you shall hear the surly sudden bell
    Give warning to the world that I am fled
    From this vile world, with vilest worms to dwell:
    Nay, if you read this line, remember not
    The hand that write it; for I love you so
    That I in your sweet thoughts would be forgot
    If thinking on me then should make you woe.
    O, if, I say, you look upon this verse
    When I perhaps compounded am with clay,
    Do not so much as my poor name rehearse,
    But let your love even with my life decay,
    Lest the wise world should look into your moan
    And mock you with me after I am gone.

    Bright star, would I were stedfast as thou art---
    Not in lone splendour hung aloft the night
    And watching, with eternal lids apart,
    Like nature's patient, sleepless Eremite,
    The moving waters at their priestlike task
    Of pure ablution round earth's human shores,
    Or gazing on the new soft-fallen mask
    Of snow upon the mountains and the moors---
    No---yet still stedfast, still unchangeable,
    Pillowed upon my fair love's ripening breast,
    To feel for ever its soft fall and swell,
    Awake for ever in a sweet unrest,
    Still, still to hear her tender-taken breath,
    And so live ever---or else swoon in death.


    As for my favorite, I can't choose. Each one is beautiful and striking in its own way.

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    this is lyrics:

    Garbage – I'm Only Happy When It Rains







    I'm only happy when it rains
    I'm only happy when it's complicated
    And though I know you can't appreciate it
    I'm only happy when it rains
    You know I love it when the news is bad
    Why it feels so good to feel so sad
    I'm only happy when it rains

    Pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down on me
    Pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down on me

    I'm only happy when it rains
    I feel good when things are going wrong
    I only listen to the sad, sad songs
    I'm only happy when it rains

    I only smile in the dark
    My only comfort is the night gone black
    I didn't accidentally tell you that
    I'm only happy when it rains
    You'll get the message by the time I'm through
    When I complain about me and you
    I'm only happy when it rains

    Pour your misery down...pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down on me...pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down...pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down on me...pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down...pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down on me...pour your misery down
    Pour your misery down...pour
    You can keep me company
    As long as you don't care

    I'm only happy when it rains
    You want to hear about my new obsession
    I'm riding high upon a deep depression
    I'm only happy when it rains...pour some misery down on me
    I'm only happy when it rains....pour some misery down on me
    I'm only happy when it rains...pour some misery down on me
    I'm only happy when it rains...pour some misery down on me
    I'm only happy when it rains...pour some misery down on me...
    pour some misery down on me...pour some misery down on me...
    pour some misery down on me,

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