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Thread: Introverted Ethics

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    Default Introverted Ethics

    So what's it like to be Fi base. Do you really see through people and grasp their potential for good or evil as in "X ray", as socionics profiles go ? (at least for FiSe ... some of them seem to endow this function with superhuman powers). Fi in mbti is less about reading people's character and more about personal values which can be hard to put exactly into words, but are sometimes defended very stubbornly because they shape people's sense of self. How do you experience it, isn't Fi mainly about personal ideals of feeling and hiding inner depth from "intruders", as Jung's description goes?

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    Fi, to me, is like a collection of verbal and nonverbal data points over time that are processed into a picture of who that person is, how they are feeling at the moment, and what their relationships look like to those around them. From those data points, I can make up my mind as to whether or not to establish or continue a relationship, or to get involved in the moment of their mood. But the key point here is that I can allow myself the option. I can sympathize and value closeness and intimacy with others, but I have the choice of how involved I am emotionally in the situation.

    One of the biggest differences I can see between Fi and Fe, in my experience, is in how we react to the pain or grief of others. Many of my Fe friends will break down and cry with someone else, be it a situation on TV or with a friend. It's as if they absorb the other individual's emotions to the point of experiencing it with them- they have no option but to feel it, too. My Fi, however, leads me to be somewhat awkward as I try to process the mood and the moment and make sense of what exactly is happening, and the depth to which it is affecting that person. I sympathize, but I still have the option as to what degree I participate in that moment.

    I'm sure others will correct me where I may be wrong in this distinction. But I think Fi folks usually require additional time to observe and collect the data points on others before allowing them into our intimate own world.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    my EII friend and i spend a lot time talking about situations going on with the people in our lives and how we feel about it and how we think others probably feel and breaking down the inner details basically? i can be too hard on myself sometimes with what i think i should or shouldn't feel instead of just letting my feelings be what they are. its like there are the emotions you have in any given moment but also behind them there's a more mental process, like an observer of the emotions, that works out what the emotions mean and how they should be dealt with and how appropriate they are to the situation etc etc and i think Fi is that observer. i think its sort of like an emotional auditor/inspector which would explain why it rubs Fe badly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    my EII friend and i spend a lot time talking about situations going on with the people in our lives and how we feel about it and how we think others probably feel and breaking down the inner details basically? i can be too hard on myself sometimes with what i think i should or shouldn't feel instead of just letting my feelings be what they are. its like there are the emotions you have in any given moment but also behind them there's a more mental process, like an observer of the emotions, that works out what the emotions mean and how they should be dealt with and how appropriate they are to the situation etc etc and i think Fi is that observer. i think its sort of like an emotional auditor/inspector which would explain why it rubs Fe badly.
    Lungs makes a really good point about why Fi and Fe probably give each other the wrong idea. I like the auditor analogy, too.

    I tend to look at Fe and wonder how they live life, because to me they seem like an exposed nerve. Whereas I'm sure Fe look at me and wonder how I can be so cold.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Fi, to me, is like a collection of verbal and nonverbal data points over time that are processed into a picture of who that person is, how they are feeling at the moment, and what their relationships look like to those around them. From those data points, I can make up my mind as to whether or not to establish or continue a relationship, or to get involved in the moment of their mood. But the key point here is that I can allow myself the option. I can sympathize and value closeness and intimacy with others, but I have the choice of how involved I am emotionally in the situation.

    One of the biggest differences I can see between Fi and Fe, in my experience, is in how we react to the pain or grief of others. Many of my Fe friends will break down and cry with someone else, be it a situation on TV or with a friend. It's as if they absorb the other individual's emotions to the point of experiencing it with them- they have no option but to feel it, too. My Fi, however, leads me to be somewhat awkward as I try to process the mood and the moment and make sense of what exactly is happening, and the depth to which it is affecting that person. I sympathize, but I still have the option as to what degree I participate in that moment.

    I'm sure others will correct me where I may be wrong in this distinction. But I think Fi folks usually require additional time to observe and collect the data points on others before allowing them into our intimate own world.
    Could you give an example of a fictional situation that a Fe-user might be able to empathize with, but you wouldn't think much of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    Could you give an example of a fictional situation that a Fe-user might be able to empathize with, but you wouldn't think much of?
    I'll try, although in this scenario I'd be doing the exact opposite of "not thinking much of," to the point where I'd probably over-think to the point of inaction.


    Let's assume we know for a fact fictitious friend Jane is overly dramatic and tends to blow things out of proportion. Let's say she calls me and her Fe friend to invite us over to tell about how she thinks she just had her third breakup with her boyfriend. When we arrive, she's on the couch crying and crying and crying. Fe friend is probably going to invest more emotion into this situation than I am, simply because I would be thinking about how A) Jane is dramatic, B) how this scenario may in fact not be a breakup at all, and C) Jane may have an alternate purpose with this meeting, whether it's to just stir up drama and receive attention, or to actually resolve the situation.

    So therefore I'll be a little more guarded in how invested I become emotionally in this situation with Jane, at least until I can deduce that the situation is grave enough to be sad with her.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Funny, I'd feel kind of awkward in that situation also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    Funny, I'd feel kind of awkward in that situation also.
    What about driving past a homeless man, who is pushing a cart in the rain? What might be your response?
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    What about driving past a homeless man, who is pushing a cart in the rain? What might be your response?
    I'd feel bad for him...but I probably wouldn't do much else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    I'd feel bad for him..
    Would you act on it?

    EDIT: Totally not judging you, btw. I have an Fe friend who honestly would, but I know many wouldn't.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Would you act on it?

    EDIT: Totally not judging you, btw. I have an Fe friend who honestly would, but I know many wouldn't.
    If he asks for change (or even food), sure..but I feel like offering him a ride would be pushing it a bit.

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    Fi's not about the emotions themselves, but about the field of influences related to the emotions. As in what triggered it.
    And remember, Fi and Te work together.

    So we see Jane crying her heart out on the couch, but we need to know why. She tells us she thinks her and her boyfriend are breaking up. What lead her to think this? What did he say or do that made her think they were going to break up? What were the circumstances surrounding that incidence? She tells us he raised his voice at her and walked out of the room when she asked him to change the lightbulb. What was he doing when she asked him? He'd been working on her car and washing blood and grease off his hand cuz he had nicked himself. Oh he was probably just agitated and in some pain. No, no, he hates me. Why do you think he hates you? Because he yelled at me and wouldn't change the lightbulb.

    But the Fe person would more likely be helping Jane with the emotions themselves, not the situation that led to the emotions. You're hurt and sad that he yelled at you, and you're scared about what it means. It's ok to cry, it's ok to feel this way. Here, let me hug you while you let it out, while unfeeling Applejacks gets you a tissue and some water. *pointed look at Applejacks telling her that now is NOT the time to be so unsensitive to Jane's emotions, and to go get the water and tissues."


    Edited to add: i am sure i could find faults in my example, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    If he asks for change, sure..but I feel like offering him a ride would be pushing it a bit.
    Totally understandable. It's hard to come up with a fictitious scenario. But I know I have Fe friends who wouldn't be able to pass that man without offering an umbrella, money, a blanket, otherwise they'd be sick over it for an hour. Whereas I'd probably assess it for so long, whether or not to help and how to help, that I'd already driven by him.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Fi's not about the emotions themselves, but about the field of influences related to the emotions. As in what triggered it.
    And remember, Fi and Te work together.

    So we see Jane crying her heart out on the couch, but we need to know why. She tells us she thinks her and her boyfriend are breaking up. What lead her to think this? What did he say or do that made her think they were going to break up? What were the circumstances surrounding that incidence? She tells us he raised his voice at her and walked out of the room when she asked him to change the lightbulb. What was he doing when she asked him? He'd been working on her car and washing blood and grease off his hand cuz he had nicked himself. Oh he was probably just agitated and in some pain. No, no, he hates me. Why do you think he hates you? Because he yelled at me and wouldn't change the lightbulb.

    But the Fe person would more likely be helping Jane with the emotions themselves, not the situation that led to the emotions. You're hurt and sad that he yelled at you, and you're scared about what it means. It's ok to cry, it's ok to feel this way. Here, let me hug you while you let it out, while unfeeling Applejacks gets you a tissue and some water. *pointed look at Applejacks telling her that now is NOT the time to be so unsensitive to Jane's emotions, and to go get the water and tissues."
    YES!! Couldn't have said it better myself!!

    I probably would've stumbled back to get tissues and water, wondering why it was that I wasn't interested in crying on the couch with her.

    (Also, I love that you could jump into my little imaginary scenario. How fun!)
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Totally understandable. It's hard to come up with a fictitious scenario. But I know I have Fe friends who wouldn't be able to pass that man without offering an umbrella, money, a blanket, otherwise they'd be sick over it for an hour. Whereas I'd probably assess it for so long, whether or not to help and how to help, that I'd already driven by him.
    I'm guessing this would be a stereotypical Fe response to that situation, whereas I'm guessing Fi might question their intentions in doing so?


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    ^^While I initially questioned whether their intentions were genuine, I still appreciated the fact that the homeless man was visibly happy and was able to get something to eat..

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    And i was wondering how much of his response was an act, and thinking he seemed a bit drunk or something when they met him. Also how they treated him as if he was mentally slow or as if he was a child. Patronizing rather than as an equal down on his luck. And if he would sell/return the items once the cameras left. I'd like to see a shot of him a couple of days later to see what, if anything, changed.

    Really, they did little to help him. It looked like they were advertising some items, which makes sense if those businesses donated food/clothing towards this project (in exchange for free advertising, heh).

    But other than a brief moment of comfort in his life, nothing changed. And these tv people get to pat themselves on the back over how they helped a man feel good for a day.

    Edited to add: though, i do know that it feels good to recieve a brief break from such an existence!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    And i was wondering how much of his response was an act, and thinking he seemed a bit drunk or something when they met him. Also how they treated him as if he was mentally slow or as if he was a child. Patronizing rather than as an equal down on his luck. And if he would sell/return the items once the cameras left. I'd like to see a shot of him a couple of days later to see what, if anything, changed.

    Really, they did little to help him. It looked like they were advertising some items, which makes sense if those businesses donated food/clothing towards this project (in exchange for free advertising, heh).

    But other than a brief moment of comfort in his life, nothing changed. And these tv people get to pat themselves on the back over how they helped a man feel good for a day.
    Yeah, I sensed a little bit of that throughout...I certainly would've shown a bit more 'tact' and subtlety than they did. I wouldn't even want to make a spectacle out of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    And i was wondering how much of his response was an act, and thinking he seemed a bit drunk or something when they met him. Also how they treated him as if he was mentally slow or as if he was a child. Patronizing rather than as an equal down on his luck. And if he would sell/return the items once the cameras left. I'd like to see a shot of him a couple of days later to see what, if anything, changed.

    Really, they did little to help him. It looked like they were advertising some items, which makes sense if those businesses donated food/clothing towards this project (in exchange for free advertising, heh).

    But other than a brief moment of comfort in his life, nothing changed. And these tv people get to pat themselves on the back over how they helped a man feel good for a day.

    Edited to add: though, i do know that it feels good to recieve a brief break from such an existence!!!!
    Same, I was trying to figure out a more sustainable solution for this guy. But I do know it's a wonderful thing they did to lift his spirits, and sometimes that's all it takes to reverse a little life momentum.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    I think that ultimately we would all agree regarding the video, but that how we came to our decisions or what specifically we initially looked at might differ. For example, looking at what all surrounded the expressions and attitudes of the guy vs what the actual emotions the guy was feeling. Which came first, the chicken or the egg.


    Richard (SiFe) and i (NeFi) just watched a show, Grimm. One of the officers finally faced one of the "monsters" and was self-doubting his sanity and his clutch on reality, it didnt help that this particular monster was also a cultural legend which gave him nightmares as a child. Ayways, we like to talk about the characters and what they did or should have done, what other options they could have chosen, etc. We are both upset that he wasnt told that he did see what he saw, and they saw it too. And we both feel really bad for the guy. But there's a slight disconnect when we talk about it. I keep looking at the rock and a hard place position it would be to have to decide whether to tell or not tell. Both have benefits and cons. And each would effect the officer differently. While Richard seems to see it more from the officer's needs and emotions. I think he might be more likely to jump in and tell the guy, to relieve that guy of his starting to spiral down, while i might be more likely to open and close my mouth like a fish, torn between wanting to jump in and tell vs maybe its better he doesnt know the whole story. Yet...richard's social introversion (not socionics') might lead him to not actually saying anything despite feeling pressured to, while my extroversion would have me cycling faster between the two and might lead me to actually saying something even as i am kicking myself in the butt at the same time.

    I mention the above because while we procesed the situation a bit differently, there was a lot more going on than just that. And in the end, we sort of agree, but for different reasons, and for different points in time.

    My point being that it's not always a clear distinct difference externally (words and actions).
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    Sad sometimes. I don't focus on people's inner dispositions if I don't know them. When I walk by a stranger on the street, I tend to usually smile coyly. I do this because I want people to feel at home in my company. I like making people feel accepted and make myself approachable for their problems if they want to or need to vent. I often get that from complete stranger. I like that very much. Because I'm a positivist type I want to foster and promote potential in others so I want to talk people out of their troubles by letting them focus on other things instead of their negative outlook in areas where they're not achieving the results they think or want to. My own feelings are often influenced by my thought of people I love. I experience my emotions fully and I am one of those people who watches a love movie or a family movie and really lives it for myself rather than let's say my ESE or LSE cousins who just see it objectively "that is that person's life and who knows if I'd even life them if I met them, so I don't know them and therefore I don't know how I feel about them." That's not the case with me, through empathy, that person's story becomes a touching affair of love and courage, an embodiment of the kinds of ideals that I want to exist in all humanity. So, I hold a lot of ideals through experience of human relationships.

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    I've come to the definitive conclusion Fi is only a pain in the ass. A citadel that keeps you confined in what you identify with and what you feel. Also it can lead to severe disappointment when people don't match your ideals about them or the way you envision a relationship.

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    lol, have you decided whether you're esi or lsi yet?

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    I just go with Jung's observations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    4. The Introverted Feeling Type

    It is principally among women that I have found the priority of introverted feeling. The proverb 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and not infrequently their temperament is melancholic. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. Since they submit the control of their lives to their subjectively orientated feeling, their true motives generally remain concealed. Their outward demeanour is harmonious and inconspicuous; they reveal a delightful repose, a sympathetic parallelism, which has no desire to affect others, either to impress, influence, or change them in any way. Should this outer side be somewhat emphasized, a suspicion of neglectfulness and coldness may easily obtrude itself, which not seldom increases to a real indifference for the comfort and well-being of others. One distinctly feels the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, such an event only occurs when the object has in some way too strong an effect. The harmonious feeling atmosphere rules only so long as the object moves upon its own way with a moderate feeling intensity, and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to accompany the real emotions of the object, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative feeling-judgment. Although one may find a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious companionship, the unfamiliar object is shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but is met by a manner of apparent indifference or repelling coldness. [p. 493]

    One may even be made to feel the superfluousness of one's own existence. In the presence of something that might carry one away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent neutrality, tempered with an occasional trace of superiority and criticism that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive object. But a stormy emotion will be brusquely rejected with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the subject from the side of the unconscious, i.e. unless, through the animation of some primordial image, feeling is, as it were, taken captive. In which event such a woman simply feels a momentary laming, invariably producing, in due course, a still more violent resistance, which reaches the object in his most vulnerable spot. The relation to the object is, as far as possible, kept in a secure and tranquil middle state of feeling, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely proscribed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly and, when once aware of it at all, the object has a permanent sense of his undervaluation. Such, however, is not always the case, since very often the deficit remains unconscious; whereupon the unconscious feeling-claims gradually produce symptoms which compel a more serious attention.

    A superficial judgment might well be betrayed, by a rather cold and reserved demeanour, into denying all feeling to this type. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, her feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop into the depth. Whereas, for instance, an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in both word and deed at the right place, thus quickly ridding itself of its impression, an intensive sympathy, because shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that embraces the misery of a world and is simply benumbed. It may possibly make an extravagant irruption, leading to some staggering act of an almost heroic character, to which, however, neither the object nor [p. 494] the subject can find a right relation. To the outer world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this sympathy looks like coldness, for it does nothing visibly, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.

    Such misunderstanding is a characteristic occurrence in the life of this type, and is commonly registered as a most weighty argument against any deeper feeling relation with the object. But the underlying, real object of this feeling is only dimly divined by the normal type. It may possibly express its aim and content in a concealed religiosity anxiously shielded, from profane eyes, or in intimate poetic forms equally safeguarded from surprise; not without a secret ambition to bring about some superiority over the object by such means. Women often express much of it in their children, letting their passionateness flow secretly into them.

    Although in the normal type, the tendency, above alluded to, to overpower or coerce the object once openly and visibly with the thing secretly felt, rarely plays a disturbing role, and never leads to a serious attempt in this direction, some trace of it, none the less, leaks through into the personal effect upon the object, in the form of a domineering influence often difficult to define. It is sensed as a sort of stifling or oppressive feeling which holds the immediate circle under a spell. It gives a woman of this type a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious. This power is derived from the deeply felt, unconscious images; consciousness, however, readily refers it to the ego, whereupon the influence becomes debased into personal tyranny. But, wherever the unconscious subject is identified with the ego, the mysterious power of the intensive feeling is also transformed into banal and arrogant ambition, vanity, and [p. 495] petty tyranny. This produces a type of woman most regrettably distinguished by her unscrupulous ambition and mischievous cruelty. But this change in the picture leads also to neurosis.

    So long as the ego feels itself housed, as it were, beneath the heights of the unconscious subject, and feeling reveals something higher and mightier than the ego, the type is normal. The unconscious thinking is certainly archaic, yet its reductions may prove extremely helpful in compensating the occasional inclinations to exalt the ego into the subject. But, whenever this does take place by dint of complete suppression of the unconscious reductive thinking-products, the unconscious thinking goes over into opposition and becomes projected into objects. Whereupon the now egocentric subject comes to feel the power and importance of the depreciated object. Consciousness begins to feel 'what others think'. Naturally, others are thinking, all sorts of baseness, scheming evil, and contriving all sorts of plots, secret intrigues, etc. To prevent this, the subject must also begin to carry out preventive intrigues, to suspect and sound others, to make subtle combinations. Assailed by rumours, he must make convulsive efforts to convert, if possible, a threatened inferiority into a superiority. Innumerable secret rivalries develop, and in these embittered struggles not only will no base or evil means be disdained, but even virtues will be misused and tampered with in order to play the trump card. Such a development must lead to exhaustion. The form of neurosis is neurasthenic rather than hysterical; in the case of women we often find severe collateral physical states, as for instance anæmia and its sequelæ.
    I don't really know if self-reported observations is as good as this. expression like can be extremely variable and different, due to it's internal and introverted nature.

    I think a few mistakes were made earlier in the thread, types like IEE/SEE/etc are not truely types, they're or types, is a creative function. In many ways IEE/SEE can be super dramatic people due to ID 4D , I find IEE/SEE sometime more dramatic than EIE/ESE due to the more controlled nature of EIE/ESE drama.

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    I've tended to always find it unsatisfactory to relate to in comparison to , which means my relation to it is more back-to-front (identifying with a type and then indirectly interpreting descriptions of .

    descriptions to me have seemed mystical and indirect...not Rational...I've always liked to see myself as someone who does things with a certain sense of order and because they were logically justifiable. It was difficult for me to see how my manner of acting was anything other than Rational: if I did things accommodating the wishes of other people or because I had a sentiment for one position that was not otherwise quantifiable, how was this not perfectly correct? (I think of course that all individuals do this, but in regards types, perhaps it is purely a matter of degree as well as the inherent mindset).

    There were various aspects of my Nature that I previously thought were -related (which they may be to a certain extent) but which I now believe are more -related...the manner in which I connect with others for example (I may well find this difficult to describe, but I suppose I go through a process of finding common themes we mutually appreciate or depreciate, even if in the details, we don't know each other's particular fetishes).

    The way that I have perhaps been an Intriguer in Human Affairs even when deeply removed from others may be illustrative of being -ish, although I have generally been very detached and seemingly de-personal (this isn't a word, but I probably don't mean impersonal).

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    I'm not sure if it's because Fi is my creative function rather than my base, but I don't really relate to the 'unemotionality' of the previous descriptions. For instance, I do catch emotions off others... if someone cries in my presence, I naturally cry with them, almost like a reflex action. For some (perhaps misguided) reason, I associate Fe with the expression of loud and passionate emotions, whereas Fi is more muted. So I would never weep and wail with others, but I would have tears running down my face in the presence of someone weeping... but if they were wailing and screaming with emotion, that would be intimidating for me and I would likely run away and make them a cup of tea to calm them down.

    I tend to associate Fe with group think when it comes to positive emotions... like if an Fe-base person is having a good time and sees someone who is emotionally neutral, they will ask the neutral person what's wrong, or try to cheer them up and make them laugh, regardless of how that person is actually feeling. In the presence of an Fe person who is in a good mood, you aren't really allowed to be grumpy or sad or neutral. At least that's my understanding, which could be totally wrong.

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    On further thought, with the emotional contagion, maybe the response to it is the part that's indicative of Fe or Fi. When I cry with someone, I feel embarrassed and try to hide it. I think an Fe-base person sees it more as a validating thing and a point of connection. I actually remember my sister quizzing me once about whether this movie made me cry, or that movie made me cry, etc. I think I tried to be evasive with my responses, whereas she was very proud of the fact that she cried, as if that proved some point about what a good person she was.

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    I know he's not one of the most favoured approaches on this forum, but I have always found Van der Hoop's description better than others. For some reason Jung's Fi seems utterly negativistic, myopic, elusive, disharmonic (asynchronous) and even perverted. I don't know what type Van der Hoop was.



    Introverted Feeling

    The introvert of feeling-type finds support and guidance by shaping his own feeling-attitudes in accordance with an inner ideal. Here the activities of feeling are hidden, and from the outside there is, as a rule, little to tell us that we are dealing with a person of feeling-type. Feeling aims more especially at an inner harmony, trying to discover what under various circumstances should be the right relationships between people if life is to be beautiful and well balanced. Reality, however, reveals in most cases that this ideal is not attained, and introverted feeling is particularly vulnerable in regard to such experiences. This vulnerability — which may become as intense at that of the sensitive plant — is one of the most characteristic peculiarities of this type.

    Just as with the introvert of thinking-type, we find here, too, a marked contrast between inner security on the one hand, and uncertainty in external behavior on the other. But whereas with the introverted thinker this opposition gives rise to thought concerning the problems of life, with the individual of feeling-type it leads to deep feeling, and to a strange mixture of inner tenderness and passionate conviction. These people are absolutely certain as to the soundness of their ideals, but this is accompanied by a helpless feeling that it will never be possible to realize them in this world. They do not, however, reject the world, for feeling means the making of ties and is directed towards social contacts. In spite of ever-repeated collisions with the world and with other people, they can never give up their wish to love them both.

    They conceal their sensitiveness behind a mask, which may be childish or simple, or again conventional, remote, or it may be friendly. But behind this mask the search goes on for someone who will understand, and for a community which will embody their ideals. However disappointed they are, they still in their innermost being believe implicitly in what their feelings tell them. Even if they are not able to express it clearly in words, they are inwardly quite certain as to what accords with them and what does not. Outwardly, their feelings are not very obvious, for when these are affected, these people tend to withdraw into themselves, and if they do express anything, it will only be much later, after they have had time to work it all over within themselves.

    In ordinary life their mask conceals what they really are. But there is, nevertheless, something very individual about them, sometimes remarkably so, which will come to expression particularly in certain moments, in relation to certain people. This happens more especially in two situations: when they achieve real contact with another person; and when, in a state of high emotional excitement, they stand up for a threatened ideal.

    In the first case, a very profound relationship of mutual understanding may suddenly come into being, all the wealth of their minds being unlocked to the confidant; sometimes this contact will later be broken off just as suddenly and unexpectedly, in defence of their own vulnerability. And where his feelings are aroused, the person who appeared to be so impersonal, remote and somewhat insignificant may suddenly burst out with a personal point of view, expressed with such conviction and such force of feeling that it compels respect.

    Such people may also resist with extreme obstinacy anything that does not accord with their sentiments. This resistance may be justified, in so far as it is based on a motive of fine feeling; but the means used to give it emphatic expression is ill-suited to the external world, and in this respect incorrect. The consequence is that they are nearly always misunderstood, and they tend more or less to resign themselves to this situation. This contrast between a clear intention, directed towards harmony, and uncertain modes of expression, giving rise to misunderstandings, is found again and again in the lives of these people.

    In childhood they are gentle and dreamy, and somewhat reserved, but with occasional violent outbursts of emotion. In familiar surroundings they can be unrestrainedly gay; but more often they are likely to exhibit violent resentment if circumstances do not correspond to their feelings, and it then seems to them that harshness and indifference prevail in the world. As a result, they seem to show signs of disappointment at a very early age, and a certain distrust of life. Owing to their inability to express themselves clearly, and to bring their ideals to reality, there may arise a feeling of impotence and inferiority. They are apt to seek the fault in themselves, and may suffer much from a sense of guilt on this account. Here, also, feelings have a tendency to extend their influence, with the result that their whole being may be plunged into depths of unhappiness; but at other times a genuine emotional contact with someone will once more fill them with a quiet and enormous delight. Now they will look at the world again with new eyes, and a feeling that is almost religious will embrace both nature and man.

    Later, also, the happiness of these people will depend on the emotional attachments which they are able to make, though they find it less necessary than do extraverts of this type to be in immediate touch with other people. The expression of other people’s feelings in poetry and music, and the realization, through the reading of stories and biographies, of the depths of their spiritual experience, may have the effect on these people of making them feel more at home in the world. In this way, there develops in them a life of the spirit, which is carefully concealed from strangers, and which may be expressed, for instance, in a secret piety, or in poetical forms, which are revealed only with great unwillingness.

    This feeling-type is particularly found among women. Whereas the woman of extraverted feeling-type has it in her to create an atmosphere of harmony around herself, in the introverted woman of this type all the riches of her mind will be developed into a love which is inwardly directed towards the highest ideals of harmony. Without saying or doing much, such a woman will emanate a feeling of rest and security. It is difficult to describe an influence of this kind, expressed as it is in such indefinite forms. But on the immediate environment it may be very effective. A mother of this type may have an even greater influence on her children than the devoted and radiant mother of extraverted feeling-type. These women are often able to implant and foster something of their own ideals in their children, exercising in this way a quiet force which helps to keep a respect for moral authority alive in the world.

    All the modes of expression for the deeper impulses of the spirit in religion and art find great support in such people. Whether they are artists or scientists, they are still primarily attracted by problems of the emotional life. They express themselves in such occupations with great care and precision. Here again the persistence and devotion of the individual of feeling-type become evident. When they do give form to their inner feeling — in a poem, for example — they will carefully weigh every expression; at the same time, they will often neglect generally accepted social forms, which for them have no significance; or they will employ conventional and simple forms as a mask, from behind which a more genuine and finer feeling

    Although in these persons the will, under the direction of strong moral conviction, represents an important factor in the psyche, it is less evident than in the other rational types, owing to the fact that the controlling activity is directed more inwards, and will occasionally come quite unexpectedly to light. feeling is expressed more indirectly. It is most evident in the strong sense of duty characteristic of these people, and in their faithful discharge of their duties. Their activity frequently suffers as a result of moods of discouragement. When this is so, they lose themselves in pessimistic feelings, giving up their efforts to make themselves better understood, or to alter things in their environment. After a time they recover from such moods, since they tend, as a rule, to regard them as a fault in themselves.

    This contact with their own moral judgment represents an essential factor in the lives of feeling-introverts. They are not bound by the judgments of others — as is the feeling-extrovert — for the standard by which they judge their own behavior is an inner moral law, intuitively felt to be binding. While the extrovert of feeling-type will repress, for the sake of harmony, things both in himself and in the external world which do not accord with his ideal, the feeling-introvert will remain more aware of such conflicts. In him, however, the limiting and excluding activity of the demand for harmony may be detrimental in a different way, everything not consonant with that harmony being regarded from a negative point of view, as opposed to what is ideal and good. It is impossible for these people to see the world or themselves objectively, and their continual comparison of things with ideal requirements gives them an exaggeratedly critical point of view. Since this also applies to their own lives, there is an undermining of their own self-confidence, as well as of their confidence in the world, which may seriously affect their happiness in life. It is necessary for these people to recognize that things which do not exactly accord with their ideals may yet have a value which may be developed.

    In these cases, also, the instinctual life is to a very large extent subordinated to the regulating force of feeling. Since the relationship between moral conviction and instinctual impulse is here worked out more within the mind, there is less danger of pretense for the sake of the external world than with extroverts. Instinctual feelings are subordinated to the ideal. At the same time, there may be a too forcible suppression of the instinctual life, in which case it will lead not so much to a split in the emotional life as to a certain joylessness, and to the feeling that life is passing without bringing any true fulfillment. There is too often a need to associate all pleasures and joys with some moral value, and to condemn them if this higher satisfaction is not obviously found in them.

    Intuition is also subjected to the authority of introverted feeling. Intuitions here bear more on the inner aspect of feeling than on its expression in other people. They may give form to the laws of feeling, but in images rather than in concepts. Where intuition is developed, it is of great assistance in finding expression for introverted feeling, both in practical life and in art. Intuition may also provide a link with religious life, which, in this case, will be specially developed in its feeling-aspect: inner moral unity with God and with his fellow-man has greater significance for the man of feeling-type than ecstatic experiences or philosophical problems. The dominance of feeling is revealed in the constant search for a harmonious relation and in the weight given to views on morality, love and justice.

    Thought is, as a rule, not very essential in the lives of these people. They accept the thought-forms as taught to them, and make conscientious use of them; but this is not vital to them, as the judgment of feeling is. In their thought-processes, they argue from preconceived attitudes of feeling, and frequently do not embark on any logical thinking at all, leaving the realm of logic to others to deal with.

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    ^i havent seen that before - i only took time to skim it right now but so far it looks really excellent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agni View Post
    So what's it like to be Fi base. Do you really see through people and grasp their potential for good or evil as in "X ray", as socionics profiles go ? (at least for FiSe ... some of them seem to endow this function with superhuman powers). Fi in mbti is less about reading people's character and more about personal values which can be hard to put exactly into words, but are sometimes defended very stubbornly because they shape people's sense of self. How do you experience it, isn't Fi mainly about personal ideals of feeling and hiding inner depth from "intruders", as Jung's description goes?
    Take it easy. Fi-function is a creating, maintaining and changing relations. Fi-types (Napoleon, Dreiser, Dostoyevsky and Huxley) can do it as desired. Other types can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kpz View Post
    Take it easy. Fi-function is a creating, maintaining and changing relations. Fi-types (Napoleon, Dreiser, Dostoyevsky and Huxley) can do it as desired. Other types can't.
    I was more interested in personal insight from Fi types, not random opinions. If it seems to you I may not be taking it easy, you may consider SLE as your type.
    I'm not interested in people parroting Socionics discourses, either.

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    I think you were right about the sense of self thing. Introverted judgment is the faculty of judgment most in tune with how a sense of coherency of the contents someone encounters stems from their sense of self - in other words, the relatedness of mental activity to the sense of self. In socionics, this is why it is probably analogous to seeing fields, rather than objects -- field here probably refers to the field of consciousness itself, if not factually, at least intuitively. Psychologically this amounts to the difference between experiencing consciousness as this so-called subjective field (or field stemming forth from the self) and experiencing it as a collection of interactions with objects. In one case you infer the field through the presence of interactions occurring, and in the other you are closer to the field and any objective interactions only serve to expose aspects of the field you weren't aware of.

    Fi is measuring this coherency in terms of of feeling-attitudes experienced towards various contents from the above standpoint of self. Much as logical coherency is measured by consistency of the framework, feeling-coherency is I think where that sense of "harmony" talked of is coming from. I think understanding this difference in coherency is really key to understanding the difference: you will, if Fi-ing, literally feel the disharmony between two attitudes and thus correct the situation.
    I tend to find the word "values" a little too removed from what's going on realistically, because I think valuations, even in humanistic topics, can be easily dealt with in some shape or form with the thinking/logical conceptualization faculties. The reason for this is the mind is capable of observing abstract and intuitive similarities between things, and thus shifting paradigm appropriately -- if we can conceptualize the value of money/gold/silver/a house, so can we intuitively merge our understanding of psychology (which can be done with classic NT style stuff) with the concepts involved in such not-really-feeling-oriented valuations to create the right valuation-conceptualizations.
    This happens by minimal awareness/personal experience of ethical functions, which all logic types have, and often the burden of resolving stuff is passed from superego to ego. I think the term "value" is chosen as a T way of describing the feeling process ultimately.

    Admittedly you are not, here, hearing a Fi person talk, but I think these are pretty important points and gathered from observing what I think really are Fi-doms.

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    Rather than simply saying "relations", I think it's more about emotional ties/relationships, be they positive, negative, or somewhere in-between. As an base, I place a lot of weight on my feelings toward others (and things), the status of our relationships, etc, and how those things shape how I act, how I should act, how they should act based on these factors, etc. As an , it's very easy for me to make definite assessments of others' character, especially negative ones, and to place some degree of distance between myself and those people. It may not always be physical; I rarely cut someone off entirely, but they are still a "bad" person in my estimation. Seeing through people... god, no. There are plenty of situations I don't understand. I do better when I have a concrete reason for why someone is acting as they are (or has acted as they did), though I will ignore their explanation in favor of my own assessment if what they say makes no sense based on what I have seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kpz View Post
    Take it easy. Fi-function is a creating, maintaining and changing relations. Fi-types (Napoleon, Dreiser, Dostoyevsky and Huxley) can do it as desired. Other types can't.
    that view is interesting and a bit contradictory for me. According to socionics different types' representants are subjected to the same patterns of intertype relationships. At the same time, according to some descriptions Fi ego types are supposed to be better than others in establishing relationships and connections in action. If particular relationships depend on intertype rel. patterns anyway and things work out naturally or they don't, how could an Fi ego be better at influencing this when e.g. approaching incompatible types? or is it only about being more insightful, selective and aware of who is compatible and the nuances and nothing more...not really that much of an active ability?

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    You mix the behavior and a type's structure. Fi-function product (love, adoration, sympathy, contempt, slight, hate for example) does not depend on intertypes interactions.
    Last edited by Kpz; 10-18-2014 at 09:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marietta View Post
    that view is interesting and a bit contradictory for me. According to socionics different types' representants are subjected to the same patterns of intertype relationships. At the same time, according to some descriptions Fi ego types are supposed to be better than others in establishing relationships and connections in action. If particular relationships depend on intertype rel. patterns anyway and things work out naturally or they don't, how could an Fi ego be better at influencing this when e.g. approaching incompatible types? or is it only about being more insightful, selective and aware of who is compatible and the nuances and nothing more...not really that much of an active ability?
    First of all, intertype relationships theory designed by a Fi polr is good as a drug for whoever needs it. Hardly anything in my life has ever confirmed it and from where I stand it is null.

    Secondly, Fi egos excel at recognizing something that could be called "value resonance" (affinity) as well as stuff like attraction vs repulsion, like vs. dislike, admiration, envy and a whole bunch of other human sentiments (or more transitory affects). They also know what it takes to maintain a (desired) relationship - but also what actions are bound to lead to its destruction. Incongruence (inconsistency) in such matters is usually not well tolerated, especially when it comes to Fi base. However this is a tricky one, because if a Fi ego is turned on by more chaotic (and even perverse) behavior from the depth of their inner sanctum, then they're gonna respond well to that. The main reality for such a person is an inner "ideal" of what makes a relationship (interaction) shine and what slowly kills it. It's as a sense in one's bones. Fi egos usually know very well what kind of people they like and whom they want to form relationships with. But of course there are higher aspects of Fi which have to do with what people usually call ethics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kpz View Post
    You mix the behavior and a type's structure. Fi-function product (love, adoration, sympathy, contempt, slight, hate for example) does not depend on intertypes interactions.
    You said yourself that those types were better in creating and maintaining relationships, which is action already, not feelings or attitudes like love, adoration or hate that you describe now. As the matter of fact, establishing and maintaining them succesfully is somewhat different from knowing what should be done to establish and maintain them.

    @ Agni, that's a good description. However, there are still many Fi-egos who buy intertype relationships part of socionics more or less even though it is supposed to be created by Fi-PoLR.

    @ Elina: isn't it more or less the same with socionics type theory too? it can be a useful frame but particular people and 'type representants' are not necessarily as clear cut as the theory says.

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    I would like to try and answer this question.

    Fis
    ESFp
    ISFj
    ENFp
    INFj

    I think these types are marked by their high concern for EMPATHIC UNDERSTANDING.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maker of helmets View Post
    I would like to try and answer this question.

    Fis
    ESFp
    ISFj
    ENFp
    INFj

    I think these types are marked by their high concern for EMPATHIC UNDERSTANDING.

    hello, Positivist, feel free to go ahead and elaborate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marietta View Post
    You said yourself that those types were better in creating and maintaining relationships, which is action already, not feelings or attitudes like love, adoration or hate that you describe now. As the matter of fact, establishing and maintaining them succesfully is somewhat different from knowing what should be done to establish and maintain them.
    If you want to establish the relation to somebody, at first you must express your relation. Fi-types do it automatically right along. Non Fi-types don't do it as often as Fi-types. Therefore, Fi-types more better in establishing the relaions than ofhers.

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