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Thread: Plus and minus.

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    Default Plus and minus.

    Hey guys, I'm gonna have lots more time to study Socionics from now on, I got a new job with more freetime.

    So I want to tackle this because I think this explains a lot.
    In plus and minus.

    First, One thing I found interesting was not being able to talk about the minus side of a fonction if you value it in plus.
    Example :
    Examples of incompetence of a plus function in a minus region:


    "No, I cannot ... I can hardly ever say this about anyone, that they have poor taste. " (+Se : EII "Dostoevsky")

    I want to know if I understand this correctly :
    People do not want to see the negative or talk about the negative side of the functions they have in plus.
    I asked a friend once to tell me how would she" bad talk " about me, but she told me she doesn't talk trash about anyone. Would that be +Fi? Or maybe +Fe?

    Also, I think this could be a good way to type, if I ask you to describe negative aspects of all 8 IM, there should be 4 you'd have a hard time" bitching "about. Right?

    Also, for my type, once a girl I used to work with told me something to make me react, she said technology is worthless. I became outraged. I started to describe how technologies are the key to evolution, how it made all our lives better etc.
    I guess maybe +Te?

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    she said technology is worthless. I became outraged. I started to describe how technologies are the key to evolution, how it made all our lives better etc.
    Perhaps. LII & SLI are considered the most technological types by Gulenko. Also blue vs green.

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    SLI seems to be what I am.
    I'm definitely a "left" type. I've just stumbled upon this : http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ng-and-Renewal
    Last edited by Destroypuppy; 03-05-2014 at 10:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destroypuppy View Post
    First, One thing I found interesting was not being able to talk about the minus side of a fonction if you value it in plus.

    I want to know if I understand this correctly :
    People do not want to see the negative or talk about the negative side of the functions they have in plus.
    This is how i understand that:
    + focuses on maximizing positive. Dwelling into minimizing the negative is in of itself, not positive. So they don't do that.
    - focuses on minimizing the negative. - Can handle the positive and negative aspects. Attempts to minimize the negative in an effort to bring about positive.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Remember the Russelll = IEE and Wittgenstein = LII claim I made? Remember how I said IEE was interested in "foundational work"? Check it out:
    IEE and LII are inclined to take on complicated, difficult problems that may require changes at level of foundation.
    Sorry for the randomness. Carry on.

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    Manifestations of negative personality traits when communication distances are large and positive traits at short distances are characteristic of involutionary, "left" types, while the reverse is true of "right" types. Left types thus more accommodating during close-range communication, while right types are more accommodating at a distance.
    I'm confused, first:
    What is a manifestation of negative personality traits?
    Also, what does he mean by distance, physical or psychological?

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    Default Gulenkosaurus Rex

    I was reading articles about type relations, and I stumbled upon some +/- stuff. I already know what's valued in the Ego block by each type as far as +/- types go:

    .α. .1. .2. . .β. .1. .2. . .γ. .1. .2. . .δ. .1. .2
    ILE +Ne -Ti . EIE +Fe -Ni . SEE +Se -Fi . LSE +Te -Si
    SEI +Si -Fe . LSI +Ti -Se . ILI +Ni -Te . EII +Fi -Ne
    ESE -Fe +Si . SLE -Se +Ti . LIE -Te +Ni . IEE -Ne +Fi
    LII -Ti +Ne . IEI -Ni +Fe . ESI -Fi +Se . SLI -Si +Te


    As I was reading, I noticed that the - functions were referred to as Involutionary, and that the + functions were referred to as Evolutionary. These are terms Gulenko uses that correspond to Result and Process respectively. I then noticed that all Result types lead with a - function, and all Process types lead with a + function. I later came across mentions of other functions that were outside of the Ego block in an SLE/IEI duality article. SLE was said to have -Ne and -Fe. -Ne would be the SLE's Role function. -Fe would be the SLE's Hidden Agenda. Let's plug those in:

    typ .1. .2. .3. .4. .5. .6. .7. .8
    SLE -Se +Ti -Ne xxx xxx -Fe


    If the Base and Creative are to be of opposite polarity, and if the Role is to be the the same polarity as the Base, then it would be sensible to make the Fi in the Vulnerable position be of the + variety:

    typ .1. .2. .3. .4. .5. .6. .7. .8
    SLE -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi xxx -Fe


    Making each block consist of a pair of + and - functions while going by the functional arrangement pointed at by Model A and keeping everything sensibly symmetrical results in this:

    typ .1. .2. .3. .4. .5. .6. .7. .8
    SLE -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi +Ni -Fe +Si -Te


    Advancing through the entirety of the socion results in this:

    .α. .1. .2. .3. .4. .5. .6. .7. .8. . .β. .1. .2. .3. .4. .5. .6. .7. .8
    ILE +Ne -Ti +Se -Fi -Si +Fe -Ni +Te . EIE +Fe -Ni +Te -Si -Ti +Se -Fi +Ne
    SEI +Si -Fe +Ni -Te -Ne +Ti -Se +Fi . LSI +Ti -Se +Fi -Ne -Fe +Ni -Te +Si
    ESE -Fe +Si -Te +Ni +Ti -Ne +Fi -Se . SLE -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi +Ni -Fe +Si -Te
    LII -Ti +Ne -Fi +Se +Fe -Si +Te -Ni . IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi

    .γ. .1. .2. .3. .4. .5. .6. .7. .8. . .δ. .1. .2. .3. .4. .5. .6. .7. .8
    SEE +Se -Fi +Ne -Ti -Ni +Te -Si +Fe . LSE +Te -Si +Fe -Ni -Fi +Te -Ti +Se
    ILI +Ni -Te +Si -Fe -Se +Fi -Ne +Ti . EII +Fi -Ne +Ti -Se -Te +Si -Fe +Ni
    LIE -Te +Ni -Fe +Si +Fi -Se +Ti -Ne . IEE -Ne +Fi -Se +Ti +Si -Te +Ni -Fe
    ESI -Fi +Se -Ti +Ne +Te -Ni +Fe -Si . SLI -Si +Te -Ni +Fe +Ne -Fi +Se -Ti


    In the article, it's mentioned that the strong functions of a dual pair should predominate over the weak functions of the other member of the dual pair. The strong functions and the weak functions are of different polarities within a dual pair. Since strong functions are more effectively "there" than weak functions, let's streamline the charts in turn:

    .α. .1. .2. .7. .8. . .β. .1. .2. .7. .8. . .γ. .1. .2. .7. .8. . .δ. .1. .2. .7. .8
    ILE +Ne -Ti -Ni +Te . EIE +Fe -Ni -Fi +Ne . SEE +Se -Fi -Si +Fe . LSE +Te -Si -Ti +Se
    SEI +Si -Fe -Se +Fi . LSI +Ti -Se -Te +Si . ILI +Ni -Te -Ne +Ti . EII +Fi -Ne -Fe +Ni
    ESE -Fe +Si +Fi -Se . SLE -Se +Ti +Si -Te . LIE -Te +Ni +Ti -Ne . IEE -Ne +Fi +Ni -Fe
    LII -Ti +Ne +Te -Ni . IEI -Ni +Fe +Ne -Fi . ESI -Fi +Se +Fe -Si . SLI -Si +Te +Se -Ti


    Now let's bring the clubs together:

    αNT .1. .2. .7. .8. . βNF .1. .2. .7. .8. . γSF .1. .2. .7. .8. . δST .1. .2. .7. .8
    ILE +Ne -Ti -Ni +Te . EIE +Fe -Ni -Fi +Ne . SEE +Se -Fi -Si +Fe . LSE +Te -Si -Ti +Se
    LII -Ti +Ne +Te -Ni . IEI -Ni +Fe +Ne -Fi . ESI -Fi +Se +Fe -Si . SLI -Si +Te +Se -Ti

    γNT .1. .2. .7. .8. . δNF .1. .2. .7. .8. . αSF .1. .2. .7. .8. . βST .1. .2. .7. .8
    ILI +Ni -Te -Ne +Ti . EII +Fi -Ne -Fe +Ni . SEI +Si -Fe -Se +Fi . LSI +Ti -Se -Te +Si
    LIE -Te +Ni +Ti -Ne . IEE -Ne +Fi +Ni -Fe . ESE -Fe +Si +Fi -Se . SLE -Se +Ti +Si -Te


    The polarities of the functions don't cleanly cross over across the socion; for example, ILE Id contains -Ni and +Te. Neither of which are found in the Ego of γNTs. Instead, they're found in the Ego blocks of βNFs and δSTs respectively. Notating the homes of these strong yet unvalued functions results in this:

    .α. .1. .2. . 7 . . .8. . . .β. .1. .2. . 7 . . .8
    ILE +Ne -Ti -Ni(β) +Te(δ) . EIE +Fe -Ni -Fi(γ) +Ne(α)
    SEI +Si -Fe -Se(β) +Fi(δ) . LSI +Ti -Se -Te(γ) +Si(α)
    ESE -Fe +Si +Fi(δ) -Se(β) . SLE -Se +Ti +Si(α) -Te(γ)
    LII -Ti +Ne +Te(δ) -Ni(β) . IEI -Ni +Fe +Ne(α) -Fi(γ)

    .γ. .1. .2. . 7 . . .8. . . .δ. .1. .2. . 7 . . .8
    SEE +Se -Fi -Si(δ) +Fe(β) . LSE +Te -Si -Ti(α) +Se(γ)
    ILI +Ni -Te -Ne(δ) +Ti(β) . EII +Fi -Ne -Fe(α) +Ni(γ)
    LIE -Te +Ni +Ti(β) -Ne(δ) . IEE -Ne +Fi +Ni(γ) -Fe(α)
    ESI -Fi +Se +Fe(β) -Si(δ) . SLI -Si +Te +Se(γ) -Ti(α)


    Completing the model, with all functions being labeled in respects to their homes in the Ego block, results in this:

    .α. .1. .2. . 3 . . .4. . . 5 . . .6. . . 7 . . .8
    ILE +Ne -Ti +Se(γ) -Fi(γ) -Si(δ) +Fe(β) -Ni(β) +Te(δ)
    SEI +Si -Fe +Ni(γ) -Te(γ) -Ne(δ) +Ti(β) -Se(β) +Fi(δ)
    ESE -Fe +Si -Te(γ) +Ni(γ) +Ti(β) -Ne(δ) +Fi(δ) -Se(β)
    LII -Ti +Ne -Fi(γ) +Se(γ) +Fe(β) -Si(δ) +Te(δ) -Ni(β)

    .β. .1. .2. . 3 . . .4. . . 5 . . .6. . . 7 . . .8
    EIE +Fe -Ni +Te(δ) -Si(δ) -Ti(α) +Se(γ) -Fi(γ) +Ne(α)
    LSI +Ti -Se +Fi(δ) -Ne(δ) -Fe(α) +Ni(γ) -Te(γ) +Si(α)
    SLE -Se +Ti -Ne(δ) +Fi(δ) +Ni(γ) -Fe(α) +Si(α) -Te(γ)
    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si(δ) +Te(δ) +Se(γ) -Ti(α) +Ne(α) -Fi(γ)

    .γ. .1. .2. . 3 . . .4. . . 5 . . .6. . . 7 . . .8
    SEE +Se -Fi +Ne(α) -Ti(α) -Ni(β) +Te(δ) -Si(δ) +Fe(β)
    ILI +Ni -Te +Si(α) -Fe(α) -Se(β) +Fi(δ) -Ne(δ) +Ti(β)
    LIE -Te +Ni -Fe(α) +Si(α) +Fi(δ) -Se(β) +Ti(β) -Ne(δ)
    ESI -Fi +Se -Ti(α) +Ne(α) +Te(δ) -Ni(β) +Fe(β) -Si(δ)

    .δ. .1. .2. . 3 . . .4. . . 5 . . .6. . . 7 . . .8
    LSE +Te -Si +Fe(β) -Ni(β) -Fi(γ) +Te(α) -Ti(α) +Se(γ)
    EII +Fi -Ne +Ti(β) -Se(β) -Te(γ) +Si(α) -Fe(α) +Ni(γ)
    IEE -Ne +Fi -Se(β) +Ti(β) +Si(α) -Te(γ) +Ni(γ) -Fe(α)
    SLI -Si +Te -Ni(β) +Fe(β) +Ne(α) -Fi(γ) +Se(γ) -Ti(α)


    I found some interesting stuff show up in here in regards to Dual/Activity relations and Confictor/Superego relations, but I'm way too sleepy to get into any of that right now. Hope you find something awesome in here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destroypuppy View Post
    I'm confused, first:
    What is a manifestation of negative personality traits?
    Also, what does he mean by distance, physical or psychological?
    I have no idea what is actually meant by negative personality traits, but i know first hand that the closer i am with you, the warmer i am and the less likely you are to spot my character flaws. While alot of process types i've met are the opposite.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I have no idea what is actually meant by negative personality traits, but i know first hand that the closer i am with you, the warmer i am and the less likely you are to spot my character flaws. While alot of process types i've met are the opposite.
    I'm not sure I get it yet, but this helps.
    One thing about me, I look cooler then I really am. I once wanted a t-shirt saying : objects in this t-shirt are less cool then they appear.

    Does that mean I want to look good with strangers and once your my friend, I let you see my ugly side?

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    Vulnerability is the key I think.
    Some people don't mind being vulnerable, others do.
    So, result are about nature and process are about artificial.
    So I guess results seem more vulnerable. Process are artificial so..
    Wait, I need to read the text again.

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    I once saw a Ted video with a girl who studied people, and she said she saw two types of people.
    One was "Whole hearted", and she said the key difference was vulnerability.

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    First, when you value a +function you usually don't wanna talk about the - function, but when you value a - function, you talk about both side.
    Now, people that have a +leading function also have a +demonstrative function. So both his strongest functions, he has to ignore the minus.
    Someone with a minus function leading Can talk about both sides.
    Do I dare to say that this is why minus leading people seem wholehearted?

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    @Destroypuppy I've been thinking about this a lot, and I got more charts on the way once I figure out how to arrange this mountain of data. A lot of this will have to do with the dimensionality of functions, quadral gestalts, I'm slogging through a .txt file and I made an amazing technicolor mess, so it might be a while. A lot of this is placing the Process/Result dichotomy on the IEs themselves, as a sort of "how" they are done by people, and a lot of this is becoming reminiscent of Enneagram flow cycles, another thing I find incredibly interesting, useful, and beautiful. I also remember going through a lot of my typings and finding a huge ratio of Result type drummers to Process type drummers, an at-the-time surprisingly high quantity of LIIs, and I'm wondering about the 4d -Ni thing; the likely LII Immanuel Kant was said to know precisely what time it was at any given time of the day, apparently he just knew. Ni has been correlated to the concept of time quite a bit, and this all combined with a Gulenko article on LSE -Ni PolR and how it meshes with IEI -Ni Base has me thinking, and yes, I'm coming up with more questions than answers here and I got some more charts to make

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    Default woofie's garage: building stuff with Model B, part II

    Rearranging the IEs in descending potencies of dimensionality, starting with the Base function of every type, results in this:

    .α . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p . 3 2a . 6 2p . 5 1a . 4 1p
    ILE +Ne(α) +Te(δ) -Ni(β) -Ti(α) +Se(γ) +Fe(β) -Si(δ) -Fi(γ)
    SEI +Si(α) +Fi(δ) -Se(β) -Fe(α) +Ni(γ) +Ti(β) -Ne(δ) -Te(γ)
    ESE -Fe(α) -Se(β) +Fi(δ) +Si(α) -Te(γ) -Ne(δ) +Ti(β) +Ni(γ)
    LII -Ti(α) -Ni(β) +Te(δ) +Ne(α) -Fi(γ) -Si(δ) +Fe(β) +Se(γ)

    .β . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p . 3 2a . 6 2p . 5 1a . 4 1p
    EIE +Fe(β) +Ne(α) -Fi(γ) -Ni(β) +Te(δ) +Se(γ) -Ti(α) -Si(δ)
    LSI +Ti(β) +Si(α) -Te(γ) -Se(β) +Fi(δ) +Ni(γ) -Fe(α) -Ne(δ)
    SLE -Se(β) -Te(γ) +Si(α) +Ti(β) -Ne(δ) -Fe(α) +Ni(γ) +Fi(δ)
    IEI -Ni(β) -Fi(γ) +Ne(α) +Fe(β) -Si(δ) -Ti(α) +Se(γ) +Te(δ)

    .γ . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p . 3 2a . 6 2p . 5 1a . 4 1p
    SEE +Se(γ) +Fe(β) -Si(δ) -Fi(γ) +Ne(α) +Te(δ) -Ni(β) -Ti(α)
    ILI +Ni(γ) +Ti(β) -Ne(δ) -Te(γ) +Si(α) +Fi(δ) -Se(β) -Fe(α)
    LIE -Te(γ) -Ne(δ) +Ti(β) +Ni(γ) -Fe(α) -Se(β) +Fi(δ) +Si(α)
    ESI -Fi(γ) -Si(δ) +Fe(β) +Se(γ) -Ti(α) -Ni(β) +Te(δ) +Ne(α)

    .δ . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p . 3 2a . 6 2p . 5 1a . 4 1p
    LSE +Te(δ) +Se(γ) -Ti(α) -Si(δ) +Fe(β) +Ne(α) -Fi(γ) -Ni(β)
    EII +Fi(δ) +Ni(γ) -Fe(α) -Ne(δ) +Ti(β) +Si(α) -Te(γ) -Se(β)
    IEE -Ne(δ) -Fe(α) +Ni(γ) +Fi(δ) -Se(β) -Te(γ) +Si(α) +Ti(β)
    SLI -Si(δ) -Ti(α) +Se(γ) +Te(δ) -Ni(β) -Fi(γ) +Ne(α) +Fe(β)


    Arranging the types themselves in accordance to dimensionality of functions, with Accepting functions on top and Producing functions on bottom, results in this:

    4d -Ne +Ne -Se +Se -Fe +Fe -Te +Te -Ni +Ni -Si +Si -Fi +Fi -Ti +Ti
    ac IEE ILE SLE SEE ESE EIE LIE LSE IEI ILI SLI SEI ESI EII LII LSI
    pr LIE EIE ESE LSE IEE SEE SLE ILE LII EII ESI LSI IEI SEI SLI ILI

    3d -Ne +Ne -Se +Se -Fe +Fe -Te +Te -Ni +Ni -Si +Si -Fi +Fi -Ti +Ti
    ac ILI IEI SEI SLI EII ESI LSI LII ILE IEE SEE SLE EIE ESE LSE LIE
    pr EII LII LSI ESI SEI IEI ILI SLI EIE LIE LSE ESE SEE IEE ILE SLE

    2d -Ne +Ne -Se +Se -Fe +Fe -Te +Te -Ni +Ni -Si +Si -Fi +Fi -Ti +Ti
    ac SLE SEE IEE ILE LIE LSE ESE EIE SLI SEI IEI ILI LII LSI ESI EII
    pr ESE LSE LIE EIE SLE ILE IEE SEE ESI LSI LII EII SLI ILI IEI SEI

    1d -Ne +Ne -Se +Se -Fe +Fe -Te +Te -Ni +Ni -Si +Si -Fi +Fi -Ti +Ti
    ac SEI SLI ILI IEI LSI LII EII ESI SEE SLE ILE IEE LSE LIE EIE ESE
    pr LSI ESI EII LII ILI SLI SEI IEI LSE ESE EIE LIE ILE SLE SEE IEE


    Condensing the table up top to contain the strongest functions of all types results in this:

    .α . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p
    ILE +Ne(α) +Te(δ) -Ni(β) -Ti(α)
    SEI +Si(α) +Fi(δ) -Se(β) -Fe(α)
    ESE -Fe(α) -Se(β) +Fi(δ) +Si(α)
    LII -Ti(α) -Ni(β) +Te(δ) +Ne(α)

    .β . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p
    EIE +Fe(β) +Ne(α) -Fi(γ) -Ni(β)
    LSI +Ti(β) +Si(α) -Te(γ) -Se(β)
    SLE -Se(β) -Te(γ) +Si(α) +Ti(β)
    IEI -Ni(β) -Fi(γ) +Ne(α) +Fe(β)

    .γ . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p
    SEE +Se(γ) +Fe(β) -Si(δ) -Fi(γ)
    ILI +Ni(γ) +Ti(β) -Ne(δ) -Te(γ)
    LIE -Te(γ) -Ne(δ) +Ti(β) +Ni(γ)
    ESI -Fi(γ) -Si(δ) +Fe(β) +Se(γ)

    .δ . 1 4a . 8 4p . 7 3a . 2 3p
    LSE +Te(δ) +Se(γ) -Ti(α) -Si(δ)
    EII +Fi(δ) +Ni(γ) -Fe(α) -Ne(δ)
    IEE -Ne(δ) -Fe(α) +Ni(γ) +Fi(δ)
    SLI -Si(δ) -Ti(α) +Se(γ) +Te(δ)


    As was outlined in the IEI/SLE Duality article, the weak functions of one member of a Dual/Activity pair should be overridden by the strong functions of the other. With the weak functions out of the way in the chart, it'll be easy to go function by function and put each quadra's best and most defining stuff forward:

    . strongest functions of quadras . . . .process. . . .result
    α +Ne -Se -Fe +Te -Ni +Si +Fi -Ti . . Se Fe Ni Ti . Ne Te Si Fi
    β +Ne -Se +Fe -Te -Ni +Si -Fi +Ti . . Se Te Ni Fi . Ne Fe Si Ti
    γ -Ne +Se +Fe -Te +Ni -Si -Fi +Ti . . Ne Te Si Fi . Se Fe Ni Ti
    δ -Ne +Se -Fe +Te +Ni -Si +Fi -Ti . . Ne Fe Si Ti . Se Te Ni Fi


    Shit's about to get crazy in the next post, so hit the deck.

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    i dunno how ti polrs like you and ann have the patience do to stuff like that. wowwzaaaaaaa

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    Te HA essentially
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i dunno how ti polrs like you and ann have the patience do to stuff like that. wowwzaaaaaaa
    I know, right?

    Be still my brain (stop twitching)...
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    I would really like to understand that...but I don't.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    @woofwoofl you are amazing
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    I got all of this data in my head, but I don't get what you're trying to make me see.
    One thing I found really interesting is how in the "plus fonctions" people try to never go into negative.
    Ex: Plus function is incompetent in the "minus" region, so its "departure" is due to the wish to not fall within the "minus" region at all, and resembles a flight. When it falls into the minus zone, the plus function loses its orientation, does not know how to react, thus its reaction may be quite inadequate.

    Function with a plus sign avoids the "minus" on property "quality" because of incompetence in this area.


    Naturally, this is reflected in desire of a person to leave the "minus" region as quickly as possible and by any means in real sense as well as in psychological sense: "I see nothing, I hear nothing."

    Examples of incompetence of a plus function in a minus region:


    "No, I cannot ... I can hardly ever say this about anyone, that they have poor taste. " (+Se : EII "Dostoevsky")

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    So in order to correctly type someone I think it's good to find witch functions are in the plus by trying talk negatively about all the aspects of reality one after the other.

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    Now I think I'm more LII, that description fits with my manners of communication :http://www.psychotypes.ru/index.php/...shnie_priznaki

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destroypuppy View Post
    Now I think I'm more LII, that description fits with my manners of communication :http://www.psychotypes.ru/index.php/...shnie_priznaki
    how can you read that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    how can you read that?
    If that avatar is his picture, he looks INTp. He looks VERY INTp!


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    Yeah,he looks like me a lot..

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    how can you read that?
    I use Chrome to translate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifer View Post
    If that avatar is his picture, he looks INTp. He looks VERY INTp!

    ILI and LII are look alike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destroypuppy View Post
    Yeah,he looks like me a lot..
    His eyes are very heavy-looking like my INTp boyfriend's. It's almost like INTp's have to carry around a very heavy heart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifer View Post
    If that avatar is his picture, he looks INTp. He looks VERY INTp!

    Gotye is INTp? Since when?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destroypuppy View Post
    ILI and LII are look alike.
    I can spot the difference pretty well. I was raised by an LII. My boss is LII. My ILI boyfriend's brother is LII. And I had a former friend who was LII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Gotye is INTp? Since when?
    I do believe. No doubt in my mind on this one.

    That video has so much "architectural" influence that it's ridiculous! His website has some on it, too.

    Whenever you scroll through Google Images, he's almost always wearing black, white, or grey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifer View Post
    I can spot the difference pretty well. I was raised by an LII. My boss is LII. My ILI boyfriend's brother is LII. And I had a former friend who was LII.
    weird wonky typings + IEI self-typing = i'm going to take a wild guess, you come from an MBTI background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    weird wonky typings + IEI self-typing = i'm going to take a wild guess, you come from an MBTI background.
    No, not at all, I've just been doing this for a while. Too long actually. It isn't really fun anymore...

    So I just washed some clothes, and all of my boyfriend's shirts were black, white, and grey. LOL! I bought the purple one... and the white one is still in the wash.

    http://s28.photobucket.com/user/Soci...0d65c.jpg.html
    Last edited by IBTL; 03-14-2014 at 07:39 PM.

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    Profile descriptions are going be the same whether it's an MBTI or Socionics profile description. Justification and/or reasoning for behavior based on functional analysis is flawed in MBTI, though. Functions for extroverts are correct and the same in both systems, but this is not true for introverts. Socionics has the functions correct for both extroverts and introverts.

    Soooooooo... I believe the OP is still INTp even if I had to use an MBTI-like profile to gather the correct information about him. His functions are still NiTeFiSe.

    It's not "weird" (which jabs the knife in for someone who is sensitive about being called so)... it's just intuitive and synthesized in a visual-spatial manner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    I would really like to understand that...but I don't.
    I've got a lot to do in here and a lot of posts to make; I'm on to something, but I won't know what it is until later. Maybe the next few posts will make things more comprehensible? I have to just lay everything out there before I know what to work with. I'm going into type relations soon, and after that, I might give things a recap with words and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    @woofwoofl you are amazing


    Quote Originally Posted by Destroypuppy View Post
    I got all of this data in my head, but I don't get what you're trying to make me see.
    There's no specific goal at the moment outside of some sort of reach for discovery that I'm compelled to make, and an expectation that a lot of this stuff will be useful for reasons I'm currently unaware of. I've seen the concept of quadra cycles applied to wide-scale things on the global level, as well as in certain movies; @Gilly did a write-up on The Matrix a while back, it ruled. I just kinda do stuff and then something cool happens.

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    This is his laundry in all of its glory!

    http://s28.photobucket.com/user/Soci...71242.jpg.html

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Default woofie's garage: this is madness, this is Model B

    As in the current world of recorded music, what is effectively taking place in typology is a sort of analog to digital transformation. Upon fundamental binary dichotomizations, a clearer and clearer picture gets built as the complexity of the system rises, and conversely, a downscaling of the complexity results in more portability. There are a multitude of approaches to the whole Socionics thing here, and I'm looking forward to seeing more and more.

    A simultaneous downscaling and upscaling are about to take place here. Quadra boundaries are drawn across any two of the following three Reinin dichotomies; Merry/Serious, Judicious/Decisive, and Democratic/Aristocratic. Using the first as a Y axis and the second as an X axis, each quadra would have a quadrant; Alpha in the top-left, Beta in the top-right, Gamma in the bottom-right, and Delta in the bottom-left. Any clockwise movement from any given point in this field, aside from the dead center, would result in a forward movement through the socion itself.

    All of Alpha and Beta would exclusively inhabit the Merry side of that particular dichotomy, and all of Gamma and Delta would consequentially inhabit all of the Serious side of that dichotomy exclusively. The same can be said about Alpha/Delta and Judicious, and Beta/Gamma and Decisive. Let's work that stuff into the charts:

    . . . polarities of quadral IEs . . . . . . process. . . .result
    alpha
    +Ne -Se -Fe +Te -Ni +Si +Fi -Ti . . Se Fe Ni Ti . Ne Te Si Fi
    merry +Ne -Se . . . . -Ni +Si . . . . . . Se . .Ni . . .Ne . .Si
    beta .+Ne -Se +Fe -Te -Ni +Si -Fi +Ti . . Se Te Ni Fi . Ne Fe Si Ti
    decis . . . . +Fe -Te . . . . -Fi +Ti . . . .Te . .Fi . . .Fe . .Ti
    gamma -Ne +Se +Fe -Te +Ni -Si -Fi +Ti . . Ne Te Si Fi . Se Fe Ni Ti
    serio -Ne +Se . . . . +Ni -Si . . . . . . Ne . .Si . . .Se . .Ni
    delta -Ne +Se -Fe +Te +Ni -Si +Fi -Ti . . Ne Fe Si Ti . Se Te Ni Fi
    judic . . . . -Fe +Te . . . . +Fi -Ti . . . .Fe . .Ti . . .Te . .Fi


    From here, there are two ways to go. Let's do both! Simplification first:

    . polarities of IEs . . .process .result
    merry
    +Ne -Se -Ni +Si . . Se Ni . Ne Si
    serio -Ne +Se +Ni -Si . . Ne Si . Se Ni

    . polarities of IEs . . .process .result
    judic
    -Fe +Te +Fi -Ti . . Fe Ti . Te Fi
    decis +Fe -Te -Fi +Ti . . Te Fi . Fe Ti


    And now let's fill in the blanks for the first chart:



    The plus-minus and minus-plus signs were the most sensible thing to fill the gaps in with. Plus-minus signs and minus-plus signs are diametrically opposed to each other in such a way that a "charge" in one polarity in a plus-minus sign necessitates an equal and opposite "charge" in the other. These quadra-drawing Reinin dichotomies can serve as midpoints between two quadras.

    Bringing all of this to the level of human individuals again, let's get into the type relations. Since I saw two Gulenko articles about IEI interactions that were full of Model B stuff, let's go with IEI. For all of these, the positions of the IEs for each type will be color coded, and the second type will have their IEs rearranged to line up with the IEI's positions:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi



    What we have up above is an Identical relation. Here's a Mirror relation:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    EIE -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi



    Not too much dissonance here. Here's a Dual relation:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    SLE +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi



    Every -/result function is matched with a +/process function, every Ego function is matched with a Super-Id function, every Super-Ego function is relieved by an Id function, every 4d function is matched with a 1d function, every 3d function is matched with a 2d function. Everything meshes together. From a structural standpoint, an Activity relation would be a synthesis of a Dual relation and a Mirror relation. Let's take a look at that:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    LSI +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi



    All of the aforementioned holds true, except for the dimensionality part; 4d functions are now matched with 2d functions, and 3d functions are now matched with 1d functions. Now that everything from within Beta quadra has been handled, let's cross the pond over to Delta, bite the bullet, and get to that Conflict relation:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    LSE -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi



    As with the Dual relation, every 4d function is paired with a 1d function, and every 3d function is paired with a 2d function, but instead of a maximum amount of relief, there is a maximum amount of irritation. All of the polarities of all of the functions are the same. A de-mirrored take on a cross-quadra, cross-club relation would be a Super-Ego relation:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    SLI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi



    If a Mirror relation is like two people harmlessly bumping into each other occasionally and stepping on each others' feet, and a Conflict relation is like two people periodically flinging knives at each others' vital organs, then a Super-Ego relation would be like two people periodically juggling knives with each other. The temperament match brings some much-needed stability, consonance, and grace. As with the Activity relations, the 4d functions are with the 2d functions, and the 3d functions are with the 1d functions. On to Quasi-Identical relations then:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    EII +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne -Fi



    Here is where there are simultaneously a tremendous amount of shared strengths and entirely different sets of values and methodologies. Every function is matched with a function with the same degree of dimensionality, but with a different polarity. Unlike in Duality and Activity, this doesn't result in relief as much as it results in a sort of mutual confusion. This sort of thing also happens in this relation's "mirrored" counterpart, which would be Contrary relations, or Extinguishment, if you wanna go with that:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    IEE +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne -Fi



    Same deal as Quasi-Identicals almost, but supposedly more dissonant. Hold onto your asses, because shit's about to get crazy in the next mega-post...

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    Almost all the clothes I own are black..

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    Ok, now I see.
    This is it, the chemistry between our elements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lifer View Post
    This is his laundry in all of its glory!

    http://s28.photobucket.com/user/Soci...71242.jpg.html
    he's got a purple shirt, he must be gay.

    and what's with the fluro green.

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    Default woofie's garage: running the Model B machine into the fucking wilderness!

    If the IE is the "what", then the charge is the "how". Let's take a look at Kindred relations:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    ILI +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi



    The Accepting functions share the "what", but not the "how". The remaining IEs are placed in positions that are far from optimal, but the polarity difference points to the effects of the positioning being more deadening than actively agitating. Going from Gamma to Alpha while keeping the temperament constant, let's check out Business relations:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    SEI +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi



    This time, the "what" is shared by the Producing functions, and the situation is definitely better as far as the PolRs are concerned. Moving on to Semi-Duality:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    SEE -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi



    The Accepting functions have the same "what" as they would in a Duality relation, but the charges are identical. The IEs themselves are arranged in a consonant manner, yet the charges being identical instead of complementary suggests that the weak spots are painlessly overridden moreso than wholly relieved. Here comes Illusionary relations:

    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    ILE -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi



    The Producing functions now share the same "what" as they would share in Duality. In the previous case, the 4d Base functions overrode their partners' 1d Dual-Seeking functions. In this case, a 3d Creative function is to override a 2d Hidden agenda, and it's easier to drive a tank through a sheet of wax paper than it is to drive a car through a brick wall. Up next are Supervision relations, in which yet another sense of symmetry is obliterated:

    LIE +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi
    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    ESE +Ni -Fe +Si -Te -Se +Ti -Ne +Fi



    The "deadening" aspect of the clashing IEs is at its absolute maximum with the 4d Base of the Supervisor up against the 1d PolR of the Supervisee. Everything else is subtly oppressive and obstructive, including the mutual sharing of the cognitive styles themselves. Next up is Benefit relations:

    ESI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    IEI -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi
    LII -Ni +Fe -Si +Te +Se -Ti +Ne -Fi



    A sort of asymmetrical synthesis of Activity and Quasi-Identical relations is taking place here. All of the polarities match, so the effect is overall more propulsive. The cognitive style of your Benefactor and/or Beneficiary will be the same cognitive style of your Dual. If a complete Supervision ring would be like four arms simultaneously crushing each other into the ground, then a Benefit ring would be like four arms infinitely lifting each other up.

    Holy crap, I feel like my brain's gonna melt. That should cover all the type interactions!

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