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Thread: When wives or girlfriends succeed, men's self-esteem sags, study contends

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    Default When wives or girlfriends succeed, men's self-esteem sags, study contends

    http://consumer.healthday.com/men-s-...go-679725.html

    FRIDAY, Aug. 30, 2013 (HealthDay News) -- Men tend to feel worse about themselves when their wives or girlfriends succeed, with their self-esteem sagging rather than basking in the glory of their partners' accomplishments.

    That's the conclusion of a study published online recently in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

    A series of social experiments revealed that men's subconscious self-esteem bruises easily when their partner succeeds in a task, even if they're not competing against each other in that task, said study lead author Kate Ratliff.

    "It makes sense that a man might feel threatened if his girlfriend outperforms him in something they're doing together, such as trying to lose weight," said Ratliff, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Florida.

    "But this research found evidence that men automatically interpret a partner's success as their own failure, even when they're not in direct competition," she added in a news release from the American Psychological Association.

    At the same time, a male partner's success had no effect at all on a woman's self-esteem, the researchers found.

    "We sort of expected that women would internalize the success of their partner and actually feel better if their partner succeeded, but we found that nothing was going on," Ratliff said. "It could be that women are used to the idea that men are expected to be successful, so when they are it's no big deal."

    The study involved 896 people in five experiments conducted in the United States and the Netherlands.

    The first experiment included 32 couples at the University of Virginia who took a problem-solving test. Then they were told that their partner scored either in the top or bottom 12 percent of all university students. Participants did not receive information about their own performance.

    The news of their partners' success or failure did not affect how participants said they consciously felt about themselves, which the study authors referred to as "explicit self-esteem."

    But, tests gauging "implicit self-esteem" -- a person's unconscious and unspoken sense of self -- found that men who believed that their partner had scored in the top 12 percent had significantly lower self-esteem than men who believed their partner had scored in the bottom 12 percent.

    "I want to be clear -- this really isn't the case that men are saying, 'I'm so upset my partner did well.' The men aren't acting different toward their partners. It's not like the men are being jerks," Ratliff said. "It's just hurting their sense of self to be in a relationship with someone who has experienced a success."

    These findings were replicated in a pair of follow-up studies done in the Netherlands, a country that boasts one of the smallest gender gaps in labor, education and politics. Like American men, Dutch men outwardly said they felt fine, but subconsciously they felt worse about themselves when faced with a wife's or girlfriend's success.

    The final two experiments were conducted online and involved 657 people from the United States.

    Some were asked to think about different types of success -- for example, their partner's social success as a charming host or their partner's intellectual success at solving math problems. Others were asked to specifically consider a time when their partner succeeded or failed at something at which they themselves had succeeded or failed.

    Regardless of whether the achievements were social or intellectual, men subconsciously still felt worse about themselves when their partner succeeded, rather than failed.

    However, men's implicit self-esteem took a bigger hit when they thought about a time when their partner had succeeded at something while they had failed.

    Ratliff speculated that these results could be tied to men's competitive urges, which previous studies have shown tend to burn much hotter than those of women.

    The results also might reflect the gender roles that society reinforces on a daily basis. "We have these ideas that men should be smart and successful, and when it turns out that women are experiencing some kind of success, it violates men's idea of what it should be to be a man or a woman," she said.

    Martin Ford, a professor of education at the George Mason University College of Education and Human Development, called the findings "fascinating and somewhat disconcerting."

    "Many of us have known men who seem to want to turn everything into a competition, so it is not hard to imagine that this evolved motivational tendency might be rather widespread among males at some level, even if it is not so dramatic and often outside awareness," Ford said. "Yet it is unclear from this study if the inclination to frame social comparison information in terms of 'winners and losers' is unique to one's romantic partner. Would the same tendency apply to male buddies? Or work acquaintances? Or total strangers?

    "But perhaps that is the point," he added. "If seeing things in competitive terms is such a powerful motivational orientation for some men that they can't get past that even with a romantic partner, how are they going to sustain relationships based on principles of equity and concern for others' welfare?"

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    Huh, I wonder what the results would be if this experiment were to be performed with gay male partners instead -- is it a heterosexual male thing? Other non-cisgendered couplings would be interesting as well.

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    Interesting article... I have been guilty of "dumbing" myself down, sts, for men. Some men are more competitive than others. This reminds me of a guy I was seeing for awhile who used to make me take various online IQ tests. The first time we took one together I scored higher and he kind of went off on me.. Not in relation to the test but on other, little, things and also very competitive on other things. I got the message loud and clear, when he started pushing more tests on me, so I would wait for him to give me his scores and I would lower mine, a few points, to avoid conflict. ewww Yet he never seemed to forget that first test. His PHD mind was threatened by a high school drop out. Healthy competition keeps me on my toes....unhealthy competition keeps me full of anxiety.

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    I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that. My friend was with a guy for 8 years or so and the entire time he could not get over the fact the she made twice the money he made without a college degree (like his precious MBA). He kept insinuating that she only outperformed him because of her looks and bullshit like that. A totally pathetic douchebag...(with a pretty decent career, so seriously, cry me a river).

    I really do not need competition in a relationship (or friendships). We can just all be good at different things and help each other out.
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    In my personal experience I think I was the one to "discriminate" based on intelligence, but in a different way to that mentioned in the article. I always looked for a partner who was intelligent and sure of himself enough not to be threatened by a woman who is his equal. Also, I need a man capable of a dispute and I'd be bored out of my brains with smn who'd expect me to "dumb down" for him. I'd rather be alone than live with smn like that.
    Having said that, I was in relationship with a very intelligent and talented man who was unsure of himself and openly admitted to being jelaous of me (despite the fact that we were not competing at all). It wasn't a good relationship and his issues were a large part of the reason for this. My current SO is self confident and is happy whenever I succeed. He's not competetive in general though as he doesn't base his self-worth on comparing himself to other people. I'd say he's one of the healthiest people at this respect that I've met in my life. I guess I'm lucky.

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    Mm, I think it's somewhat normal since you spend a lot of time with your partner, but I don't believe it's any different for most of today's women. And it wouldn't be any different if you were to spend most of your time with a group of friends who were more "successful" than you.
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    Women traditionally are incredibly insecure when it comes to competing with other women.

    The only social issue I see is that women (implied by this study) don't see themselves on par with their male counter parts.

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    Time to marry for money.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    ^

    Edit: You sound like my mother...

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    I've felt this myself. It could be natural or social but I don't think I chose to feel it. I certainly didn't think it was right for me to feel like this but it happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that. My friend was with a guy for 8 years or so and the entire time he could not get over the fact the she made twice the money he made without a college degree (like his precious MBA). He kept insinuating that she only outperformed him because of her looks and bullshit like that. A totally pathetic douchebag...(with a pretty decent career, so seriously, cry me a river).

    I really do not need competition in a relationship (or friendships). We can just all be good at different things and help each other out.
    I don't think people choose what they feel, it' show they deal with it that matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I don't think people choose what they feel, it' show they deal with it that matters.
    Sure. But I wonder how happy a relationship can be if one partner is *less successful* (in the context of this article) and constantly feels inadequate or insecure? You can work on everything, but I would rather have a relationship in which you can admire each other for accomplishments and feel that they lift you up as a team. It is nice to be with someone who can sincerely celebrate your successes with you and help you achieve them rather than feeling insecure and anxious about them (works both ways). That feels stifling in a way.

    And I cannot help but roll my eyes a little when a man cannot handle that a woman is successful. Maybe they cannot necessarily help it, but come on. It's the 21st century.

    Edit: I was going to delete the above because I realize that it really is not something you can necessarily help, but I would hope that it is also something a person would at least be willing to work on/address rather than say *men are just wired that way* or something along those lines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Sure. But I wonder how happy a relationship can be if one partner is *less successful* (in the context of this article) and constantly feels inadequate or insecure? You can work on everything, but I would rather have a relationship in which you can admire each other for accomplishments and feel that they lift you up as a team. It is nice to be with someone who can sincerely celebrate your successes with you and help you achieve them rather than feeling insecure and anxious about them (works both ways). That feels stifling in a way.

    And I cannot help but roll my eyes a little when a man cannot handle that a woman is successful. Maybe they cannot necessarily help it, but come on. It's the 21st century.

    Edit: I was going to delete the above because I realize that it really is not something you can necessarily help, but I would hope that it is also something a person would at least be willing to work on/address.
    Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings. So it's likely you won't ever know unless you try to get them to open up. ^_^ This way they can either show it and be a dick or hold it back, deal with it on their own and either come to term with it or not.

    I don't think admiration and respect and feeling of inadequacy and insecurity are mutually exclusive. One concerns how one feels about one's partner the other concern's one's own sense of self. I can certainly handle women being successful, but that doesn't mean I haven't felt the pangs of insecurity or inadequacy either. It might be a expectations thing.

    I also think that the reason why women don't feel pangs of inadequacy and insecurity when their spouses are successful is as innocent as it might seem at a glance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings. So it's likely you won't ever know unless you try to get them to open up. ^_^ This way they can either show it and be a dick or hold it back, deal with it on their own and either come to term with it or not.
    No, you know. It will show in some form or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    No, you know. It will show in some form or another.
    So what? People aren't perfect, and how can you know for sure why they show what they show. It could be explained in many ways as well from just feeling down or what not. People often have insecurity and feelings of inadequacy, it's pretty common. Just the reason for this particular issue is interesting.

    There's always the option to be a dick about it like the example you mentioned, but I think people can handle it in other ways which are not so bad.

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    This topic has me thinking...
    I have been in relationships with musicians, starving artists, trust fund babies, and highly educated men. The more educated the more likely they were to compete with me and I think it had something to do with me being able to keep up with them, intellectually speaking...though I do not consider myself an intellectual type. I just learn fast and if I don't know something I will research it.

    I learned a lot from all these types and I take constructive criticism to heart... I used to hang out with a group of musicians in NYC when I was really young and I had this older (than me) couple (mid 20s) pull me aside and tell me that I needed to increase my vocabulary and stop using country slang (lived in KY for awhile) if I wanted to be taken seriously in this world. They were hardcore heroin addicts and they gave me some of the best advice ever. Musicians and artistic people seem to be the least competitive in relationships 'cause we inspire each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    So what? People aren't perfect, and how can you know for sure why they show what they show. It could be explained in many ways as well from just feeling down or what not. People often have insecurity and feelings of inadequacy, it's pretty common. Just the reason for this particular issue is interesting.
    When you live with someone over the course of years, you figure things out about the person and ideally, you talk about things.

    There's always the option to be a dick about it like the example you mentioned, but I think people can handle it in other ways which are not so bad.
    I actually agree with this, but on a personal level, I would struggle with knowing (or suspecting) that my partner feels insecure because of what I do/accomplish. Like I said above, it feels sort of stifling ... and I guess sad.
    Last edited by Kim; 02-28-2014 at 06:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings.
    That's a super lousy generalisation. Of the people I interact with, I've found more men are willing to discuss their feelings than not. Actually, even strangers open up to me about personal suff quite regularly.

    There's over 7 milliard people in the world, roughly half of whom are male. Are you really sure you know all, or at the least vast majority, of them "aren't the type"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    That's a super lousy generalisation. Of the people I interact with, I've found more men are willing to discuss their feelings than not. Actually, even strangers open up to me about personal suff quite regularly.
    Are they opening up to you or is it just diversion or some act to get laid or emotional response from you. Everyone has spots they're not willing to open up about and people often expose some things about themselves which might seem sore but really are just conversation pieces they've dealt with. I don't really think your personal experience is relevant here because in many ways it's a flawed example. Social expectations and cultural expectations are beyond an individuals personal experience. Even if these individuals are willing to open up somewhat with you, and I doubt that they're nearly as open as you think they are, it doesn't affect what cultural and social expectations are today. Just go watch a movie, or read the Iliad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    When you live with someone over the course of years, you figure things out about the person and ideally, you talk about things.

    I actually agree with this, but on a personal level, I would struggle with knowing (or suspecting) that my partner feels insecure because of what I do/accomplish. Like I said above, it feels sort of stifling ... and I guess sad.
    "I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that." Just saying, someone who knows you feel this way would be unlikely to share with you in these situations and there are many reasons why a man or men might feel this way. It's interesting you feel entitled to a man's feelings in this way. It seems like your expectations from them is that they don't have these feelings or don't express them to a extent that you don't find out. The truth is that man men know very well how to hide emotions and are trained from a very young age socially to hide their true emotions. The way you verbalize things is one of those expectations which men have and is a social expectation that men have placed on them, that their true feelings are not something that is acceptable and expressible. Men generally get bombarded with messages like the one you express, this is however a message which women don't necessarily get, they get other messages socially which are just as interesting.

    Men generally also deal with issues of insecurity in other ways as well such as when faced with a male that might be a competitor for their mate and there is good reason why men feel insecure in these circumstances as well. It's a habit of women to leave men for more successful men and it's a habit of men to leave women for various reason as well. My view about men-women sexual relationships is that many issues are not rationally resolvable, so for me these expectations and feelings are ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Are they opening up to you or is it just diversion or some act to get laid or emotional response from you.
    I'm pretty sure a pretty high percent of them aren't trying to get laid with me (family, family friends, a good number of my friends, professors, people deeply in love with someone else, most old people, boys that haven't even hit puberty yet, asexuals, etc). Even if they all did, that' wouldn't exclude honest opening up about one's feelings to me at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Everyone has spots they're not willing to open up about and people often expose some things about themselves which might seem sore but really are just conversation pieces they've dealt with.
    1. I can't really think any spots I wouldn't be willing to open up about to the right person, in the right situation. I know a lot of people (including men) who claim the same about themselves.
    2. Having a sore spot like that doesn't make a person "the type to not share/discuss their feelings" in general
    3. Why would you specifically name men as the group to not share about themselves, if "everyone", including women, have stuff they don't want to share?
    4. I'm fairly confident in my ability to recognize whether a person is vulnerably opening up or just casually mentioning something they've dealt with already. There might be some cases that fall in the grey area, but e.g. if a person literally cries and shakes and asks for support I think it's fairly safe to assume they're in need of it. Nonverbal communication also makes a big difference.

    Hah, I feel like I'm starting to get an idea of what the EII - ILE supervision is supposed to look like in real life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I'm pretty sure a pretty high percent of them aren't trying to get laid with me (family, family friends, a good number of my friends, professors, people deeply in love with someone else, most old people, boys that haven't even hit puberty yet, asexuals, etc). Even if they all did, that' wouldn't exclude honest opening up about one's feelings to me at all.
    People aren't just looking for sex sometimes they just want emotional response from the interlocutor. Also as I said before, your personal experience does not change societal and cultural expectations, which have been substantiated by all sort of studies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    1. I can't really think any spots I wouldn't be willing to open up about to the right person, in the right situation. I know a lot of people (including men) who claim the same about themselves.
    Either this is bullshit, or you haven't been traumatized enough... ^_^ And even if you say this, you probably have sore spots you rationally are willing to express but haven't yet to someone. Why don't you tell me every single one of your sore spots right now and we'll see which ones you leave out. You can do it in PM if you feel shy. People often have a pretense to a openness they won't back up with action. Even if you do reveal most of your sore spots to me it still doesn't prove much, but it might give you a clue of what you might be unwilling to open up with. However, what I said doesn't even apply to you, because women aren't exactly culturally pressured to suppress true emotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    2. Having a sore spot like that doesn't make a person "the type to not share/discuss their feelings" in general
    3. Why would you specifically name men as the group to not share about themselves, if "everyone", including women, have stuff they don't want to share?
    4. I'm fairly confident in my ability to recognize whether a person is vulnerably opening up or just casually mentioning something they've dealt with already. There might be some cases that fall in the grey area, but e.g. if a person literally cries and shakes and asks for support I think it's fairly safe to assume they're in need of it. Nonverbal communication also makes a big difference.
    You only mention situations where people have shared with you, that doesn't mean they're open at all, it just means they opened up to you in a moment, however this doesn't mean they have situations which they haven't opened up to you.

    Anyways in conclusion. Your personal experience does not change societal and cultural expectations, which have been substantiated by all sort of studies. Anyways since you're EII, you're looking for a guy who is totally a product of these social expectations and generalizations, good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    "I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that." Just saying, someone who knows you feel this way would be unlikely to share with you in these situations and there are many reasons why a man or men might feel this way. It's interesting you feel entitled to a man's feelings in this way. It seems like your expectations from them is that they don't have these feelings or don't express them to a extent that you don't find out. The truth is that man men know very well how to hide emotions and are trained from a very young age socially to hide their true emotions. The way you verbalize things is one of those expectations which men have and is a social expectation that men have placed on them, that their true feelings are not something that is acceptable and expressible.

    Men generally also deal with issues of insecurity in other ways as well such as when faced with a male that might be a competitor for their mate and there is good reason why men feel insecure in these circumstances as well. It's a habit of women to leave men for more successful men and it's a habit of men to leave women for various reason as well. My view about men-women sexual relationships is that many issues are not rationally resolvable, so for me these expectations and feelings are ok.

    Insecurities and fears can express themselves in many different ways. Have you ever been in a long-term relationship in which you live together? You cannot hide from your partner and you also pick up on the nuances in behavior and reactions. At least that is my experience.

    And of course my partner can have feelings and anxieties. They can also feel insecure. But I would hope that they express this and we work on this rather than keeping it to themselves because in that case, it is more than likely that it express itself in ways that are confusing and unproductive (one of my exes would jokingly put me down on occasion. Nothing overtly terrible, bit it chipped away at my self-esteem. I don't think he ever meant harm or really understood the effect). When you enter a relationship, your feelings will affect the person you are with, whether you want that to happen or not. I am actually a quite ambitious person and I would absolutely hate for my partner to struggle with that. So it is not just for my sake that I do not like this scenario much.

    Perhaps I should phrase this differently and say that a relationship in which there is no such insecurity about each other's accomplishments sounds more liberating, comfortable, and productive to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Insecurities and fears can express themselves in many different ways. Have you ever been in a long-term relationship in which you live together? You cannot hide from your partner and you also pick up on the nuances in behavior and reactions. At least that is my experience.
    The sad thing is I'm very sensitive to this sort of nuance and behavior, even when I don't live together with someone. I can generally see a relationship disintegrating and the manner of it's disintegration very early on, even before it begins, although perhaps not able to consciously understand the emotional content of such a interaction, I see it in my own and other individuals. It's one of the reasons why I am quite wary of relations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    And of course my partner can have feelings and anxieties. They can also feel insecure. But I would hope that they express this and we work on this rather than keeping it to themselves because in that case, it is more than likely that it express itself in ways that are confusing and unproductive (one of my exes would jokingly put me down on occasion. Nothing overtly terrible, bit it chipped away at my self-esteem. I don't think he ever meant harm or really understood the effect). When you enter a relationship, your feelings will affect the person you are with, whether you want that to happen or not. I am actually a quite ambitious person and I would absolutely hate for my partner to struggle with that. So it is not just for my sake that I do not like this scenario much.

    Perhaps I should phrase this differently and say that a relationship in which there is no such insecurity about each other's accomplishments sounds more liberating, comfortable, and productive to me.
    I actually preferred that you did not phrase it differently the first time you said it, because it's more interesting. It's funny too because your dual happens to be a type who is very adept at keeping a emotional mask. Well the few SLI's I know are very good at hiding all their emotions except what their IEE spouses want them to feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    People aren't just looking for sex sometimes they just want emotional response from the interlocutor. Also as I said before, your personal experience does not change societal and cultural expectations, which have been substantiated by all sort of studies.
    Wanting an emotional response doesn't exclude "opening up". Quite often, that's exactly what people are looking for when they open up to somebody. It doesn't make the opening up less pure/true/whatever.
    I never claimed my personal experience changes cultural expectations (also, there are quite a few different cultures and societies on this planet. not all of them share the same expectations). What it does, however, is prove wrong your statement that men don't share or discuss their feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Either this is bullshit, or you haven't been traumatized enough... ^_^
    Maybe I haven't been traumatized then. It seems unlikely that all men would, to a point where they'd all have these personal secrets they are unable to ever open up about. And again, even if they did, that wouldn't mean they aren't able to open up about some other sore things.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    And even if you say this, you probably have sore spots you rationally are willing to express but haven't yet to someone. Why don't you tell me every single one of your sore spots right now and we'll see which ones you leave out. You can do it in PM if you feel shy. People often have a pretense to a openness they won't back up with action. Even if you do reveal most of your sore spots to me it still doesn't prove much, but it might give you a clue of what you might be unwilling to open up with. However, what I said doesn't even apply to you, because women aren't exactly culturally pressured to suppress true emotion.
    I didn't say I would be ready to tell everything to anyone at any time. I said I don't think there's anything I wouldn't share "with the right person, at the right moment". Atm I can't think of any big insecurity/sercet I hadn't shared with somebody at least once. Also, me listing you stuff I feel/have felt vulnerable about wouldn't prove anything or even be very relevant. You'd have no way of knowing whether I'd left something out intentionally or not. Even if I told you every single moment of my life so far, you would have no way of knowing I didn't hide something. But it's not relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You only mention situations where people have shared with you, that doesn't mean they're open at all, it just means they opened up to you in a moment, however this doesn't mean they have situations which they haven't opened up to you.
    Yeah, most people don't share their stuff with me all the time. One example is when they are asleep, for example. That doesn't mean they have problems sharing or discussing emotions and personal stuff.
    Last edited by willekeurig; 02-28-2014 at 08:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    I actually preferred that you did not phrase it differently the first time you said it, because it's more interesting. It's funny too because your dual happens to be a type who is very adept at keeping a emotional mask. Well the few SLI's I know are very good at hiding all their emotions except what their IEE spouses want them to feel.
    This is silly. SLIs show their emotions when they feel that they can do so in a safe environment. This has nothing to do with IEEs wanting them to feel a certain way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Wanting an emotional response doesn't exclude "opening up". Quite often, that's exactly what people are looking for when they open up to somebody. It doesn't make the opening up less pure/true/whatever.
    I never claimed my personal experience changes cultural expectations (also, there are quite a few different cultures and societies on this planet. not all of them share the same expectations). What it does, however, is prove wrong your statement that men don't share or discuss their feelings.
    Note that my statement was kind of sarcastic and in jest. See the ^_^, you took a statement I made quite unseriously, very seriously.

    Also this statement was very specifically to Kim and not as any sort of generalization of men, but rather making fun of the social expectations which men are exposed to, i.e the unacceptability of their feelings. See conversation below.

    Kim: "I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that."

    Me: "Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings. So it's likely you won't ever know unless you try to get them to open up. ^_^"

    I know very well men can discuss their emotions in some situations but it means very little in relation to my response to Kim's expectations of male stoicism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Maybe I haven't been traumatized then. It seems unlikely that all men would, to a point where they'd all have these personal secrets they are unable to ever open up about. And again, even if they did, that wouldn't mean they aren't able to open up about some other sore things.

    I didn't say I would be ready to tell everything to anyone at any time. I said I don't think there's anything I wouldn't share "with the right person, at the right moment". Atm I can't think of any big insecurity/sercet I hadn't shared with somebody at least once. Also, me listing you stuff I feel/have felt vulnerable about wouldn't prove anything or even be very relevant. You'd have no way of knowing whether I'd left something out intentionally or not. Even if I told you every single moment of my life so far, you would have no way of knowing I didn't hide something. But it's not relevant.

    Yeah, most people don't share their stuff with me all the time. One example is when they are asleep, for example. That doesn't mean they have problems sharing or discussing emotions and personal stuff.
    You're being evasive here, if I had a counselor I paid I would share whatever, that's half the reason people pay counselor. It doesn't mean any sort of openness, just means the need for enough distance or comfort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Also this statement was very specifically to Kim and not as any sort of generalization of men, but rather making fun of the social expectations which men are exposed to, i.e the unacceptability of their feelings. See conversation below.

    Kim: "I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that."

    Me: "Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings. So it's likely you won't ever know unless you try to get them to open up. ^_^"

    I know very well men can discuss their emotions in some situations but it means very little in relation to my response to Kim's expectations of male stoicism.
    To clarify, I have no expectation of male stoicism. I prefer a man who is not insecure with regards to my success. Short of that, I would prefer a man who can address these issues in some shape or form. A relationship with a man who is secretly insecure and resentful of my success sounds sad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    This is silly. SLIs show their emotions when they feel that they can do so in a safe environment. This has nothing to do with IEEs wanting them to feel a certain way.
    You think SLI's show IEE's everything they feel, you think they don't hide some of the emotions their partners might find unacceptable, you think everyone can show everything to everyone?

    Anyways, IEE's have as 8th function, in the ID this is a very selfish and can be shadow expression which is both selfish and aggressive. I've dealt with my share of IEE's nand don't even try to say you've never imposed what you wanted someone to feel on them, because let's be quite clear, all passionate types with 4d are prone to do this sort of imposing. The primary communication style of IEE's is that of a emotionally aggressive one. Don't worry it's in your unconscious so you may not even known when it comes out.

    SLI's are quite successful at not feeling what they're not supposed to feel or at least consciously suppressing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    To clarify, I have no expectation of male stoicism. I prefer a man who is not insecure with regards to my success. Short of that, I would prefer a man who can address these issues in some shape or form. A relationship with a man who is secretly insecure and resentful of my success sounds sad.
    Just be with someone more successful than you are... problem solved... It'll never happen...

    Also I'm sure you have no expectations you're willing to admit, doesn't mean you don't verbalize expectations which will be interpreted by other individuals. It's not like people are conscious of their expectations from their unconscious, that would be too easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Note that my statement was kind of sarcastic and in jest. See the ^_^, you took a statement I made quite unseriously, very seriously.

    Also this statement was very specifically to Kim and not as any sort of generalization of men, but rather making fun of the social expectations which men are exposed to, i.e the unacceptability of their feelings. See conversation below.
    Kim: "I could not handle being with someone who feels threatened like that."
    Me: "Well you're in luck Kim, because men aren't the type to share or discuss their feelings. So it's likely you won't ever know unless you try to get them to open up. ^_^"
    I know very well men can discuss their emotions in some situations but it means very little in relation to my response to Kim's expectations of male stoicism.

    You're being evasive here, if I had a counselor I paid I would share whatever, that's half the reason people pay counselor. It doesn't mean any sort of openness, just means the need for enough distance or comfort.
    Heh, it seems funny how you, at first, try to defend your arguments, but then after an obvious loss suddenly explain them off as jokes and not really generalisations at all.

    Also, I seemed to miss this
    Anyways since you're EII, you're looking for a guy who is totally a product of these social expectations and generalizations, good luck!
    Just so you know, there is quite a number of different cultures and subcultures in the world. Not all of them have similar social expectations or norms or whatever. Also, I'm totally not looking for someone that is "totally a product of social expectations and generalisations", however good that particular culture might seem. I need people to have some sort of edge and idividuality to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
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    Doesn't matter to meh. And when girfriend, wife, dog, cat, etc, outperforms me, while versus some other team of extraterrestrials. I don't mind at all. In fact, I welcome it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Heh, it seems funny how you, at first, try to defend your arguments, but then after an obvious loss suddenly explain them off as jokes and not really generalisations at all.

    Also, I seemed to miss this

    Just so you know, there is quite a number of different cultures and subcultures in the world. Not all of them have similar social expectations or norms or whatever. Also, I'm totally not looking for someone that is "totally a product of social expectations and generalisations", however good that particular culture might seem. I need people to have some sort of edge and idividuality to them.
    First you're the one who cares about winning and losing because you took what I said totally out of context. It should be clear I wasn't serious and what I said was sarcastic to Kim's expectation that men don't feel the feelings she was prohibiting(at least around her). This is a fairly regular action in western society, and we live in western society where Kim is a member of and did it quite boldly. Also that comment you linked is also quite sarcastic, but since you seem to want to take it seriously, and emotionally, that's fine.

    To be quite frank, I didn't defend myself, I accused you of lying and/or self-deception. Essentially I don't believe you, I don't think I'm going to ever believe you. I view your personal experience as simply inadequate to represent the truth of the society and cultural that exist in the world we live in today. I could give a flip about outside society which don't have these issues because you would be hard pressed to find a relevant one.

    I don't need to defend myself, what I say is self-evident in western society. What I said to you was this... "Are they opening up to you or is it just diversion or some act to get laid or emotional response from you."

    I think your personal experience is extremely out of touch with the expectations men feel from society and culture everyday of their life. Hey, it's not like I can expect you to understand what men go thru from boys up nor do I think it's all that bad. It's not like I'll experience a period or what women experience in sexual harassment either.

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    i didnt read a lot of this argument so i might be missing something but i thought hk had a point when he said its about what you do about your feelings. you can't help what you feel. if you try to deny it then it just bottles up. its like the thought policing thing i mentioned in the race thread. i'd rather be in the company of a man who resents women but is communicative about it than a politician who just talks the talk. (that said, it really sucks when you want to be proud of youself over something and you have a friend or partner making it difficult with jealousy)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You think SLI's show IEE's everything they feel, you think they don't hide some of the emotions their partners might find unacceptable, you think everyone can show everything to everyone?
    I never said anything of that sort.

    Anyways, IEE's have as 8th function, in the ID this is a very selfish and can be shadow expression which is both selfish and aggressive. I've dealt with my share of IEE's nand don't even try to say you've never imposed what you wanted someone to feel on them, because let's be quite clear, all passionate types with 4d are prone to do this sort of imposing. The primary communication style of IEE's is that of a emotionally aggressive one. Don't worry it's in your unconscious so you may not even known when it comes out.
    Maybe, but that does not mean that SLIs only show emotions when feeling what *I want them to feel*

    SLI's are quite successful at not feeling what they're not supposed to feel or at least consciously suppressing it.
    SLIs feel what they feel, but they might not show it. That being said, I would have happier relationships with some SLIs than with others because the repression of some emotions will come out in ways that negatively affect the relationship while the repression of others will have less of an effect.

    Just be with someone more successful than you are... problem solved... It'll never happen...
    Be with someone who is not insecure, even better. Then we can be as successful as we want to be during the course of our relationship.

    Also I'm sure you have no expectations you're willing to admit, doesn't mean you don't verbalize expectations which will be interpreted by other individuals. It's not like people are conscious of their expectations from their unconscious, that would be too easy.
    Of course I have expectations. In my experience, if I grow resentful of things that my partner does and that are important to him/our relationship, then I have to do something about it or the relationship will go up in flames. I cannot expect to be insecure and resentful about something (important) and live happily ever after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    First you're the one who is losing because you took what I said totally out of context. It should be clear I wasn't serious and what I said was sarcastic to Kim's expectation that men don't feel the feelings she was prohibiting. This is a fairly regular action in western society, and we live in western society where Kim is a member of and did it quite boldly. Also that comment you linked is also quite sarcastic, but since you seem to want to take it seriously, and emotionally, that's fine.
    What the hell? You can feel what you feel, but I might not want to be in a relationship with someone who feels like that AND does not want to address this should it become an issue in the relationship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i didnt read a lot of this argument so i might be missing something but i thought hk had a point when he said its about what you do about your feelings. you can't help what you feel. if you try to deny it then it just bottles up. its like the thought policing thing i mentioned in the race thread. i'd rather be in the company of a man who resents women but is communicative about it than a politician who just talks the talk. (that said, it really sucks when you want to be proud of youself over something and you have a friend or partner making it difficult with jealousy)
    Of course men can feel this way, but I can also say that this might have negative consequences in a relationship that I would rather not deal with unless he really wants to work on things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I never said anything of that sort.

    Maybe, but that does not mean that SLIs only show emotions when feeling what *I want them to feel*
    As I said SLI's are very good at it, but doesn't mean they're perfect at it. It doesn't change the fact IEE's often are emotionally aggressive individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    SLIs feel what they feel, but they might not show it. That being said, I would have happier relationships with some SLIs than with others because the repression of some emotions will come out in ways that negatively affect the relationship while the repression of others will have less of an effect.

    Be with someone who is not insecure, even better. Then we can be as successful as we want to be during the course of our relationship.

    Of course I have expectations. In my experience, if I grow resentful of things that my partner does and that are important to him/our relationship, then I have to do something about it or the relationship will go up in flames. I cannot expect to be insecure and resentful about something (important) and live happily ever after.
    It's cool to have expectations, nothing wrong with that. This is your feelings about it, it's a deal breaker, ultimately feelings aren't all that controllable. I've felt these feelings aforementioned feelings myself and I certainly don't think I should have felt them, and I certainly hid them, but nevertheless I felt them. I certainly didn't sabotage the other individual in question or insult them or anything like that and I think that counts for something too.

    How's this for your sake, I'll say I've never ever had these feelings and my life has been pure and saintly. ^_^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Of course men can feel this way, but I can also say that this might have negative consequences in a relationship that I would rather not deal with unless he really wants to work on things.
    okay, i misunderstood your position. i thought you were saying the feelings themselves were unacceptable. my bad.

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    Every time I see this thread title, I want to end the sentence like this, "when wives and girlfriends attack"



    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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