similarities/differences with my eii bff

[ashlesha]

this isn't a huge deal and i was debating if it really needs its own thread but hey at least i'm doing something socionicsy. usually i end up applying socionics thoughts to whatever happens to be relevant atm and rn it happens that my best friend is on my mind and i type her EII-Ne and comparing/contrasting her to myself (with my recent openness to being delta) might be interesting. i don't know what kind of input i should expect or would welcome so i'm playing it by ear i guess.

• she's a lot louder and i'm a lot quieter. when we first met in 7th grade i was new in school and not expecting anybody to notice me but suddenly this chick started talking my ear off. when we hang out in public i end up "shh"ing her and reminding her of her volume a lot cuz when she gets excited she gets louder and louder and more high pitched and doesn't seem to realize that everybody can hear everything. (and its often about our sex lives or something, lol.) when i remind her she's just like, "oh, yeah.."
  
• we are both pretty studious and detail oriented and committed to things when we want to be.
  
• when we were teenagers i was the crazy one and she was the voice of reason. now that we're both about 30 and she's getting a divorce and ready to mingle i'm the one who acts more like a stick in the mud. but she thanks me the next day.
  
• when guys talk to us in bars my initial reaction even if i find them attractive is to be mistrustful and creeped out and tell them to go away but she encourages me to be more "adventurous" (her word). its thanks to her i manage to stay polite long enough for free drinks.
  
• we've never had an issue being attracted to the same men. the one she ended up marrying was too "soft and sweet" for my taste (i think he was SEI) and the one i settled down with for years she considered a standoffish jerk (SLI).
  
• she is more into things like...henna in her hair, purse made out of recycled seatbelts, she gives her cat prozac, dr. who... kind of this sophisticated urbanite hippie (yuppie?) sort of thing. i think some of it is pretty cool but its not my area.
  
• i think in high school i was seen more as the "normal" one, she got made fun of a lot more but i think people probably secretly admired her for the same reasons because her personality is very on her sleeve and i am more careful.
  
• her (LIE>LSE) mom once said that while we are both book-smart, i am the street-smart one...my friend didn't like that.
  
• i don't consider myself to have good navigational skills or particularly awesome spatial awareness, but compared to her i'm like a god at it. it cracks me up how she can park somewhere or drive somewhere and five minutes later not remember where the lot is or how to come back the same way.
  
• everything is funnier with her. i can watch some stupid corny horror movie or boring british comedy (she loves british comedy...i don't get it) and if i was alone i'd be too bored to stay awake but somehow her presence and commentary makes me laugh my ass off.
  
• overall i think her presence is more energizing and mine is more calming.
  
• in the past ive chalked it up to democratic vs. aristocratic but she tends to say things like "he has a criminal record, what did she expect" and i'll point out how her ex husband has a criminal record or something. and somehow its different. whereas i tend to be more specific in the first place. (more like, "he had a criminal record, so what he did now makes sense")...but in a way its like the same thing but backwards.
  
• she seems to have more natural confidence in her abilities and "spunk" than i do, and i think she can use that energy for forward momentum even lacking the other more tangible abilities while i'm more convinced that i need to have those down before i do anything.

i could add a lot more, i'm sure, but i should get to work. maybe later.

dang this is really long anyways.

[kopyk]

So you settled down with a SLI, fit the stereotype of a boring delta, didn't stand up to Ashton and k0rpsy due to - as you put it - their strong personalities. I'll go with EII. Anyway she seems NA or NPA in NPA theory, sanguine or choleric respectively.

[ashlesha]

what do you mean i didnt stand up to ashton and korpsy? i did let korpsy influence me more than i should have but on top of his strong personality i had feelings for him. ive disagreed with both of them both privately and publicly, so its like you have selective hearing.

you used to be friendlier towards me. i don't know what changed but it sucks, dude.

[Capitalist Pig]

not that this has anything to do with you, your friend, or how any of us might relate, but I can (perhaps idealistically) see myself in your friend based on the description above.

[ashlesha]

IN my friend, @Capitalist Pig?

theres a lot in my OP that is situational or w/e...like we have switched roles and in the past i was more spontaneous and she was more reserved. i wish i knew how to separate out the constants and the inborn sort of traits from the lifestyle ones. but i've always had trouble with this when it comes to typing myself or whatever. i guess what i'm looking for most is a reply that shows its done that somehow. if its possible.

in light of @Ath's post, what i'm least interested in hearing is veiled insults under the guise of typing me that barely address the OP at all.

[Capitalist Pig]

IN my friend, @Capitalist Pig?

well yeah i mean i can relate to the role that you describe for her. i see qualities of myself, or qualities I want to see in myself, in your friend. that's all i was saying.

[Kim]

well yeah i mean i can relate to the role that you describe for her. i see qualities of myself, or qualities I want to see in myself, in your friend. that's all i was saying.

Which ones?

[FDG]

I don't see how your friend could be EII based on your description. She sounds...ESTj? Except some minor details.

[ashlesha]

I don't see how your friend could be EII based on your description.

i thought people might say that - kim said IEE in the chatbox, and based on the description, i can see why. i would probably say the same thing if i saw the traits written down in a list like that.

she's historically been more tense and IJish than me in a lot of ways but is currently on a wee-just-got-divorced-life-is-an-adventure sort of thing and i don't know how to capture her personality independently and without bias by listing things about her from all these years i've known her cuz i'll end up cherry picking and its easier to just talk about how she is right NOW even though it will obviously be influenced by current circumstances.

i did vacillate between IEE and EII for awhile. at one point i sent a PM to friends on the forum asking for VI and EII was the overwhelming response. maybe i'll post pics of both of us later when i'm not at work.

edit: i kind of assumed you'd think IEE too, but maybe that's a leap. did you have anything in mind?

[FDG]

Okay. I was mostly basing my response on the following traits: louder (point 1.) + voice of reason as teenager (point 3.) + being more open to strangers (point 4.) + energizing presence (point 11.) + natural confidence in her (sometimes nonexistant) abilities (point 13.). These point suggested an EJ-ish personality.

[Capitalist Pig]

Which ones?

i don't know, my meta-cognition here is weak. what you put in bold was more of a clarification on my part that i'm not certain of the effects of my cognitive bias on this particular occasion.

[FDG]

edit: i kind of assumed you'd think IEE too, but maybe that's a leap. did you have anything in mind?

ESTj was my first impression tbh.

[ashlesha]

honestly i think if/when i post pictures, LSE will likely be out of the question. but other types could still be on the table.
it makes things complicated with the initial purpose of this thread, though, lol.
to me... i could consider IEE and maybe a few other types but coming to decide EII has taken some time and would take some time to undo.

[ashlesha]

she's one of the more obviously "intuitive" people ive ever met, fwiw.

a lot of times i end up kind of directing things when we are together. like, "don't forget to take a right here" or "the show starts in 15 minutes, we should get the bill for this food."

ive been chalking this up to S/N but it could be attributed to P/J, as well, maybe? she doesn't mind my directing at all - she seems to appreciate it or at least indifferently accept it.

i can easily type myself a sensor compared to her, but she's so extreme that on a scale it might not mean much, lol.

[kopyk]

i knew how to separate out the constants and the inborn sort of traits from the lifestyle ones. but i've always had trouble with this when it comes to typing myself or whatever. i guess what i'm looking for most is a reply that shows its done that somehow. if its possible. in light of @Ath's post,

You wish to delineate nature and nurture. That's hard. Don't rely on VI tho, its BS. ppl know identical twins of same gender (dunno what its called) yet they're different socionics types. Asking/declaring is easy to pick up on in convos ime. As for the ashton/k0rp I recall you once saying you gave in cuz of their strong personalities. What kinda XSI fails at volition, pressure?

[ashlesha]

You wish to know the delineate nature and nurture. That's hard. Don't rely on VI tho, its BS. ppl know identical twins of same gender (dunno what its called) yet they're different socionics types.

i'm not going to argue for the validity of vi (lol) but going by the common wisdom of body language and eye contact, etc. it would be very unlikely anyone would type her LSE based on vi.

Asking/declaring is easy to pick up on in convos ime.

i don't know how you pick up on it, but in conversations between me and her she's the monologuer and i'm the ocassional interjector, which i would associate with her being a declarer and my being an asker, if anything.

As for the ashton/k0rp I recall you once saying you gave in cuz of their strong personalities. What kinda XSI fails at volition, pressure?

its a little more complicated than that and also something i'd prefer not to talk about because i'm trying to put things behind me. dolphin has talked about the same phenomenon and online dynamic and she's commonly typed Se base. there was more involved than volition and pressure - if Se won every single battle then the sociotypes wouldn't be equal. i win some and lose some, so you can type that.

[Absurd]

Si deficiency in immune system.

[FDG]

What kinda XSI fails at volition, pressure?

Both?

[Radio]

when i'm around ESI friend or IEI friend, usually i'm the jumpy, energetic, enthusiastic one who initiates conversations and doesn't stop talking. particularly with IEI friend, i have to be the assertive one who has to direct the interaction and suggest where to sit, what to do, etc. with ESI friend, i sometimes get the impression that i'm incredibly scattered and almost IEE-like. with IEI friend, i get the sense that i can be much more decisive than i let on. on the other hand, around LSI friend, i become much more laid-back; usually i'm the passive, quiet, sarcastic "voice of reason", while he spazzes out and is generally always energetic and easily excited.

i don't know what relevance that has to anything. i just thought about it while i was reading your post.

[Capitalist Pig]

i'm not going to argue for the validity of vi (lol) but going by the common wisdom of body language and eye contact, etc.

actually, VI is probably the only thing Socionics uses, albeit methodically, that is probably the most well researched and documented scientifically. @Ath, as usual, doesn't know what he's talking about. He believes in silly algorithmic tests and social metrics, not any sort of physical evidence like reproducible research and experimental verification.

[Absurd]

What is the point of this?

[ashlesha]

side by side selfies. now you guys can type her 12 more different things, lol.

[ashlesha]

i thought the photo of her dressed up like a fairy for the renaissance festival just SCREAMED delta nf, but maybe she wouldn't want me using it.

[kopyk]

i don't know how you pick up on it, but in conversations between me and her she's the monologuer and i'm the ocassional interjector, which i would associate with her being a declarer and my being an asker, if anything.

That fits, based on my own experience.

actually, VI is probably the only thing Socionics uses, albeit methodically, that is probably the most well researched and documented scientifically. @Ath, as usual, doesn't know what he's talking about. He believes in silly algorithmic tests and social metrics, not any sort of physical evidence like reproducible research and experimental verification.

Did you read my previous post? The only way I can see VI still working is if different types use facial muscles in distinct ways so much that their face shape changes over time. But then how come ppl know twins that still look alike - take a long time for the changes to occur or what? Or are we just gonna assume those who knew the twins mistyped them? Also, many socionists are opposed to VI, Ganin started it IIRC.

[Capitalist Pig]

Did you read my previous post? The only way I can see VI still working is if different types use facial muscles in distinct ways so much that their face shape changes over time. But then how come ppl know twins that still look alike - take a long time or what? Also, many socionists are opposed to VI, Ganin started it IIRC.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...rsonality.html

The research isn't conclusive, I give you that, but physiognomy is hardly a new idea.

[kopyk]

[url]physiognomy is hardly a new idea.

I've read physiognomy articles before (like long-term partners looking more alike) but was still an interesting read. There's several paragraphs in there which could support VI becoming more useful as they age but there would seem to be a lot of noise. Lets not forget that those who've met identical twins of same gender may have met them well into adulthood. If facial characteristics correlate to socionics I think it would be primarily due to socionics type imposing limits on what else a person can be. ppl on this forum already agree to this by claiming INXx =/= E8.

[Narc]

I've read physiognomy articles before (like long-term partners looking more alike) but was still an interesting read. There's several paragraphs in there which could support VI becoming more useful as they age but there would seem to be a lot of noise. Lets not forget that those who've met identical twins of same gender may have met them well into adulthood. If facial characteristics correlate to socionics I think it would be primarily due to socionics type imposing limits on what else a person can be. ppl on this forum already agree to this by claiming INXx =/= E8.

Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen are identical twins, but there are still noticeable differences in their facial expressions.

mary-kate-and-ashley-olsen.jpg

[Iris]

i thought people might say that - kim said IEE in the chatbox, and based on the description, i can see why. i would probably say the same thing if i saw the traits written down in a list like that.

she's historically been more tense and IJish than me in a lot of ways but is currently on a wee-just-got-divorced-life-is-an-adventure sort of thing and i don't know how to capture her personality independently and without bias by listing things about her from all these years i've known her cuz i'll end up cherry picking and its easier to just talk about how she is right NOW even though it will obviously be influenced by current circumstances.

i did vacillate between IEE and EII for awhile. at one point i sent a PM to friends on the forum asking for VI and EII was the overwhelming response. maybe i'll post pics of both of us later when i'm not at work.

edit: i kind of assumed you'd think IEE too, but maybe that's a leap. did you have anything in mind?

IEE supervises ESI, have you ever felt any NE polr hits? She does sound more IEE than EII. Also, I have noticed IEE tenseness/anxiety in some Si related situations because that is suggestive for them which might make them look a little IJ when they are trying to cope. If you are EII, do you see her as your mirror?

[ashlesha]

IEE supervises ESI, have you ever felt any NE polr hits? She does sound more IEE than EII. Also, I have noticed IEE tenseness/anxiety in some Si related situations because that is suggestive for them which might make them look a little IJ when they are trying to cope. If you are EII, do you see her as your mirror?

i don't think she supervises me. we have a super comfortable relationship. i could see kindred or mirror. i don't really know if i believe intertypes follow their prescriptions to the letter because there are so many other factors, so i'm more inclined to see relationships loosely as in we could be in the same quadra or adjacent quadras but it would be strange for us to be in opposing quadras. but supervision would probably be strange, as well. we might not have 100% understanding but we know where the limits of our understanding lie and we can operate perfectly around those limits, if that makes sense?

she can be sort of a clean freak and weird about things like germs but she's very proactive herself in that area, which i associate more with Si HA. she makes her bed every day and never forgets to wash off her eye makeup before bed, that sort of thing. she's historically been more moralizing than me in that where i'm inclined to say something pissed me off or somebody is an asshole she's more inclined to say "that's not right," in a more sweeping way. she is a lot more vocal, actually..like in high school she would actually rant in the middle of class about how she felt about something whereas i would just roll my eyes at the same thing. she can be kind of shrill, which is part of what she got made fun of for and its why i've said maritsa reminds me of her (though they're different enough, lol). her body language is kind of stiff, but that could be either IJ temperament or weak Si, i suppose.

she may be more energetic and social than me when we go out with the goal to have fun, but on a day-to-day sort of basis, i think we have pretty similar levels of oomph. i practically lived at her house when we were teenagers and if anything she was more stable than i am and more responsible in terms of always going to bed at a decent hour and doing her homework at the same time, etc.

if i knew for sure what a polr hit feels like or how to recognize Ne then i guess i wouldn't have made the thread (though i'd prefer not to have these things explained to me, because its not like i haven't read about them and its something i need to understand more experientially).

[Iris]

i don't think she supervises me. we have a super comfortable relationship. i could see kindred or mirror. i don't really know if i believe intertypes follow their prescriptions to the letter because there are so many other factors, so i'm more inclined to see relationships loosely as in we could be in the same quadra or adjacent quadras but it would be strange for us to be in opposing quadras. but supervision would probably be strange, as well. we might not have 100% understanding but we know where the limits of our understanding lie and we can operate perfectly around those limits, if that makes sense?

she can be sort of a clean freak and weird about things like germs but she's very proactive herself in that area, which i associate more with Si HA. she makes her bed every day and never forgets to wash off her eye makeup before bed, that sort of thing. she's historically been more moralizing than me in that where i'm inclined to say something pissed me off or somebody is an asshole she's more inclined to say "that's not right," in a more sweeping way. she is a lot more vocal, actually..like in high school she would actually rant in the middle of class about how she felt about something whereas i would just roll my eyes at the same thing. she can be kind of shrill, which is part of what she got made fun of for and its why i've said maritsa reminds me of her (though they're different enough, lol). her body language is kind of stiff, but that could be either IJ temperament or weak Si, i suppose.

she may be more energetic and social than me when we go out with the goal to have fun, but on a day-to-day sort of basis, i think we have pretty similar levels of oomph. i practically lived at her house when we were teenagers and if anything she was more stable than i am and more responsible in terms of always going to bed at a decent hour and doing her homework at the same time, etc.

if i knew for sure what a polr hit feels like or how to recognize Ne then i guess i wouldn't have made the thread (though i'd prefer not to have these things explained to me, because its not like i haven't read about them and its something i need to understand more experientially).

I agree about other factors being at play in whether supervision is experienced. My SEE friend has an EII dad, so her whole life he has raised her to be careful in his really kind way. He would get frustrated by her carelessness and lack of earnestness, but was always pretty gentle with her. They get along really well. She has her own house now, and when they work together on a home improvement project, she gets tired of how long it takes him to do things, but she never says anything, because he is the nicest person, she just fumes a little inside. When I was first trying to figure out socionics, I had a really hard time typing her because I just couldn't see that relationship as supervision.

[Not A Communist Shill]

From the photos, she doesn't seem very energetic although from the second photo there seems to be a little glimmer of a spark there. I don't care to try and type her beyond your view of her type (EII, considering IEE?) so I would just say she seems a little reserved for IEE but based on my own understanding of myself I can understand how someone can be effervescent in some spheres while generally being quite reserved.

[Absurd]

Usually I just go with description of person.

What else is worth of noting?

Socionics wise it is relatively easy there only being 8 elements...