I just got extinguished (EII-EIE extinguishment relations)

[Iris]

I was pouring my heart out on the phone to a friend about an issue that was really important to me. My EII cousin overheard me and when I got off the phone, she said, "You sounded so desperate," in a mildly reproachful tone of voice. It was interesting because she has the same concerns, but Fe is her ignoring function. So I have been trying to figure out how I might extinguish an EII using Fi. So how do you extinguish others with your ignoring (7th) function?

[ashlesha]

im not sure about "extinguishment" per se but with Fe types sometimes its like they're communicating on a certain emotional plane that i'm expected to match and mirror and it can be hard for me to engage with that if i'm not already there myself. so i might just literally ignore it, or i might try to go along in order to be nice but probably come off like i'm condescendingly humoring them. like when i worked with a bunch of betas i developed this habit of a dry fake laugh that i hated even as i was doing it but it was a defensive way of dealing with them when i couldn't genuinely step onto the same page.

i don't remember ever feeling like my Fi was "extinguished" by an Fe leading type, honestly. the closest thing i can think of is talking to an IEI friend about somebody i thought didn't like me and she kept reassuring me in a blase way, like, "of course she likes you, don't be silly *laugh*" and it bothered me that she wasn't taking it seriously so i pressed the issue until she said she'd figure it out but i could tell she was just saying it to shut me up and that she was annoyed.

[Iris]

im not sure about "extinguishment" per se but with Fe types sometimes its like they're communicating on a certain emotional plane that i'm expected to match and mirror and it can be hard for me to engage with that if i'm not already there myself. so i might just literally ignore it, or i might try to go along in order to be nice but probably come off like i'm condescendingly humoring them. like when i worked with a bunch of betas i developed this habit of a dry fake laugh that i hated even as i was doing it but it was a defensive way of dealing with them when i couldn't genuinely step onto the same page.

This happened to me when I was traveling with one of my many sisters-in-law (I have a lot of brothers,) an ESE. I was stuck in a car for days with her and she kept going on about her new grandbaby back home in a really sappy over-the-top, maternal way and I felt so trapped by her conversation. I was able to sustain genuine Fe interest for about 15 minutes because of course I am happy for her, and I do like babies, etc, etc, then I was ready to move on to another topic devoid of sappiness. The whole trip she monologued about the baby, and then would break the occasional silence by bursting out, "Little one, (referring to the baby) ha ha ha ha ha." in this really soupy tone of voice and I honestly wanted to scream out loud, but realizing how poorly that would be received, instead I just screamed inside. She was probably not satisfied with my somewhat muted reaction to her enthusiasm and was trying to raise the Fe tone. I really did my best to seem interested but I didn’t want to be fake. I also felt bad about my lack of enthusiasm.
.
We picked up two cousins (LSE and LSI ) about halfway through the trip and I noticed that they had the same reaction to her Fe that I did, so I did not feel like such a monster. I do find it hard to imagine an LII enjoying that much Fe.

i don't remember ever feeling like my Fi was "extinguished" by an Fe leading type, honestly. the closest thing i can think of is talking to an IEI friend about somebody i thought didn't like me and she kept reassuring me in a blase way, like, "of course she likes you, don't be silly *laugh*" and it bothered me that she wasn't taking it seriously so i pressed the issue until she said she'd figure it out but i could tell she was just saying it to shut me up and that she was annoyed.

OK that is so interesting, because I think I have also done that trying to reassure someone.

[IBTL]

You should have told her that she is desperate... "You are desperate."

[Eliza Thomason]

This happened to me when I was traveling with one of my many sisters-in-law (I have a lot of brothers,) an ESE. I was stuck in a car for days with her and she kept going on about her new grandbaby back home in a really sappy over-the-top, maternal way and I felt so trapped by her conversation. I was able to sustain genuine Fe interest for about 15 minutes because of course I am happy for her, and I do like babies, etc, etc, then I was ready to move on to another topic devoid of sappiness. The whole trip she monologued about the baby, and then would break the occasional silence by bursting out, "Little one, (referring to the baby) ha ha ha ha ha." in this really soupy tone of voice and I honestly wanted to scream out loud, but realizing how poorly that would be received, instead I just screamed inside. She was probably not satisfied with my somewhat muted reaction to her enthusiasm and was trying to raise the Fe tone. I really did my best to seem interested but I didn’t want to be fake. I also felt bad about my lack of enthusiasm.
.
We picked up two cousins (LSE and LSI ) about halfway through the trip and I noticed that they had the same reaction to her Fe that I did, so I did not feel like such a monster. I do find it hard to imagine an LII enjoying that much Fe.

Wow. Well first as to comeback to the EII's rude statement to you, when you realize someone has hurt you with their words and you haven't have time to process just what it is they said and why it hurt, you can always come back with "What?", asked without irritation but kind of mild blank curiosity that shows you sincerely wonder why anyone would ever say such an odd thing. They can repeat it (getting to hear their own rude selves again, a chance to second guess how that might have sounded to hear) and if you are still not satified (or they aren't uncomfortable yet) you can then say, "Why would you say that?". They respond, and you can still look at them silently for a moment, ending it with, "That is an odd thing to say." or "That is rude" (or "unkind"). And in this you are not acting badly as she was, because you are not saying her "You are..."; you are instead saying to her, "That is...", thereby addressing what she said, not her entire character, which is more appropriate and just.

It works every time.

Also I wanted to say I really liked your open and honest explanation of your reaction to that social setting. I know ESE's who talk just like that! Although I do not have that reaction you had, and I enjoy what ESE says. But, after a long conversation with ESE and after we part I realize they never asked about me of my interests, and I never had a chance to express anything of importance to me. It was always all about me listening to them. Which I like to do, however, I find with ESE its pretty consistently one-sided. I guess that's what to expect from Benefactor relations. I should know, I was married to one.

Your detail of your reaction to the conversation is informative to me, and makes me think that at times when I might be happily sharing about something of great feeling-value to me, I should "check" reactions of the other person: are they polite or sincere? And if possibly just polite I should tone it down, or pause a goodlong time to give them the opportunity to change the subject if they wish, or, if they did like what I was saying, they can ask me to continue, or ask me more about it, and only then will I go on. If they change the subject then I know they weren't into it.

This is like the important principle in teaching "Check for Understanding". In conversation, I guess the rule would be "Check for Interest"! ..

[IBTL]

Wow. Well first as to comeback to the EII's rude statement to you, when you realize someone has hurt you with their words and you haven't have time to process just what it is they said and why it hurt, you can always come back with "What?", asked without irritation but kind of mild blank curiosity that shows you sincerely wonder why anyone would ever say such an odd thing. They can repeat it (getting to hear their own rude selves again, a chance to second guess how that might have sounded to hear) and if you are still not satified (or they aren't uncomfortable yet) you can then say, "Why would you say that?". They respond, and you can still look at them silently for a moment, ending it with, "That is an odd thing to say." or "That is rude" (or "unkind"). And in this you are not acting badly as she was, because you are not saying her "You are..."; you are instead saying to her, "That is...", thereby addressing what she said, not her entire character, which is more appropriate and just.

It works every time.

Also I wanted to say I really liked your open and honest explanation of your reaction to that social setting. I know ESE's who talk just like that! Although I do not have that reaction you had, and I enjoy what ESE says. But, after a long conversation with ESE and after we part I realize they never asked about me of my interests, and I never had a chance to express anything of importance to me. It was always all about me listening to them. Which I like to do, however, I find with ESE its pretty consistently one-sided. I guess that's what to expect from Benefactor relations. I should know, I was married to one.

Your detail of your reaction to the conversation is informative to me, and makes me think that at times when I might be happily sharing about something of great feeling-value to me, I should "check" reactions of the other person: are they polite or sincere? And if possibly just polite I should tone it down, or pause a goodlong time to give them the opportunity to change the subject if they wish, or, if they did like what I was saying, they can ask me to continue, or ask me more about it, and only then will I go on. If they change the subject then I know they weren't into it.

This is like the important principle in teaching "Check for Understanding". In conversation, I guess the rule would be "Check for Interest"! ..

You're right! It's probably best to be nice whenever possible. I'm just sick and tired of playing nice with this unhealthy INFj who's domineering, needy, and passive-aggressive. Whenever she calls her son, she's almost in tears and wants to gossip about all of her other children who have just about refused to have a relationship with her. She's a quasi-identical who's actions definitely look monstrous to me.

[Satan]

You're right! It's probably best to be nice whenever possible. I'm just sick and tired of playing nice with this unhealthy INFj who's domineering, needy, and passive-aggressive. Whenever she calls her son, she's almost in tears and wants to gossip about all of her other children who have just about refused to have a relationship with her. She's a quasi-identical who's actions definitely look monstrous to me.

Just tell her to fuck off.

[Satan]

You should have told her that she is desperate... "You are desperate."

I can't see that working on anyone.

[Satan]

im not sure about "extinguishment" per se but with Fe types sometimes its like they're communicating on a certain emotional plane that i'm expected to match and mirror and it can be hard for me to engage with that if i'm not already there myself. so i might just literally ignore it, or i might try to go along in order to be nice but probably come off like i'm condescendingly humoring them. like when i worked with a bunch of betas i developed this habit of a dry fake laugh that i hated even as i was doing it but it was a defensive way of dealing with them when i couldn't genuinely step onto the same page.

In my youth I remember at least one or two people saying that they felt like they needed to have a lot of energy to engage / keep up with me. I think I said to not try and keep up with me?

I'm not meant to be a Fe type - but maybe I faked it better in my youth.

I'm a lot more mellow these days.

i don't remember ever feeling like my Fi was "extinguished" by an Fe leading type, honestly. the closest thing i can think of is talking to an IEI friend about somebody i thought didn't like me and she kept reassuring me in a blase way, like, "of course she likes you, don't be silly *laugh*" and it bothered me that she wasn't taking it seriously so i pressed the issue until she said she'd figure it out but i could tell she was just saying it to shut me up and that she was annoyed.

This a girl, or a guy? Girls can be so snarky and unpredictable.

[IBTL]

Just tell her to fuck off.

I wish I could!

[Satan]

I wish I could!

You can. Will you?

[Satan]

im not sure about "extinguishment" per se but with Fe types sometimes its like they're communicating on a certain emotional plane that i'm expected to match and mirror and it can be hard for me to engage with that if i'm not already there myself. so i might just literally ignore it, or i might try to go along in order to be nice but probably come off like i'm condescendingly humoring them. like when i worked with a bunch of betas i developed this habit of a dry fake laugh that i hated even as i was doing it but it was a defensive way of dealing with them when i couldn't genuinely step onto the same page.

I had a think about what you wrote, and I had a thought about my youth, and then I read what you said again.

I think what's important to me is about communicating - not being on the same plane - but being on a plane. Presenting yourself warts and all. And that can include saying things you like, things you don't like. But not holding back, or restraining like a syphon, but being a reservoir.

[IBTL]

You can. Will you?

No, but at the next holiday gathering, I'm bringing a badass chocolate cake to compete with her sugarless, premasticated slop. For her, the INFj, that "to be healthy" hidden agenda just equals crafting baby food. And it's truly horrible for someone like me, the INFp, who genuinely values aesthetics!

[Satan]

No, but at the next holiday gathering, I'm bringing a badass chocolate cake to compete with her sugarless, premasticated slop. For her, the INFj, that "to be healthy" hidden agenda just equals crafting baby food. And it's truly horrible for someone like me, the INFp, who genuinely values aesthetics!

So is this your way to try and hurt her feelings?

[IBTL]

I can't see that working on anyone.

It would look monstrous from a quasi-identical, I believe.

So is this your way to try and hurt her feelings?

Yes that, and it gives everyone else the chance to enjoy something that contains pleasure (it's also medicinal in a sense).

Oh, and I can't tell you how long it took me to figure this out! Weeks...

[Satan]

It would look monstrous from a quasi-identical, I believe.


Yes that, and it gives everyone else the chance to enjoy something that contains pleasure (it's also medicinal in a sense).

Oh, and I can't tell you how long it took me to figure this out! Weeks...

I don't know why you don't just join a different group.

[IBTL]

I don't know why you don't just join a different group.

I don't believe you CAN switch. I've reached a breaking point, though, so the irrational drama is like balls of fire just spinning and spinning and spinning.

[Satan]

I don't believe you CAN switch. I've reached a breaking point, though, so the irrational drama is like balls of fire just spinning and spinning and spinning.

Well damn just get stoned and don't pay too much attention.

[Eliza Thomason]

You're right! It's probably best to be nice whenever possible.

Particularly if you want to train her to behave in your company.. (Since it appears from what you said that you will be subject to her company repeatedly in the future).

I'm just sick and tired of playing nice with this unhealthy INFj who's domineering, needy, and passive-aggressive. Whenever she calls her son, she's almost in tears and wants to gossip about all of her other children who have just about refused to have a relationship with her. She's a quasi-identical who's actions definitely look monstrous to me.

Is it your mother-in-law? Just wondering how she is in your life.

No, but at the next holiday gathering, I'm bringing a badass chocolate cake to compete with her sugarless, premasticated slop. For her, the INFj, that "to be healthy" hidden agenda just equals crafting baby food. And it's truly horrible for someone like me, the INFp, who genuinely values aesthetics!

LOL, This is a great way to get her back. I love it. I once used great food in a similar way (to win a battle. Though I ultimately lost the war, that battle I did win...).

[IBTL]

Particularly if you want to train her to behave in your company.. (Since it appears from what you said that you will be subject to her company repeatedly in the future).

Or I could just chose to never see her again. Her oldest daughter gave up on her Christmas before last, and while it's sad, I can't blame that child. I'm definitely at my wit's end!

Is it your mother-in-law? Just wondering how she is in your life.

She's my mother-in-law by default. I'm not actually married.

LOL, This is a great way to get her back. I love it. I once used great food in a similar way (to win a battle. Though I ultimately lost the war, that battle I did win...)

I hope it works!

[Iris]

Usually those mildly reproachful comments from my EII friends have the effect of making me feel like I have been behaving like a loud teenager, and so I feel slightly embarrassed at my lack of control. But they are never rude about it and they are perceiving me through their Delta lens, which I understand so much better now. Really, in that moment, I felt that initial rush of shame, followed by Eureka! this is extinguishment. So I didn't let it get me down too much. I am not out to train any of them. I did take that opportunity to share the information about extinguishment relations. She thought it was very interesting. Then I posted the question, how do I extinguish others, because I don't want to make people feel bad like that.

[Eliza Thomason]

Or I could just chose to never see her again. Her oldest daughter gave up on her Christmas before last, and while it's sad, I can't blame that child. I'm definitely at my wit's end!

When she talks about those who have left her you can say, "I don't have anything to contribute to this conversation and I don't want to talk about people who aren't' here to defend themselves."

She's my mother-in-law by default. I'm not actually married.

So sort of like family.

I hope it works!

Let us know!

[epheme]

My mother is IEE and I extinguish her all the time. This is using my ignoring function Ne. I guess the way it works is that she will be going off and off and off on all these "possibilities" that are not really all that possible and I try to listen but at some point I just start zoning out. When I really can't handle it anymore I tend to shut her down (not necessarily on purpose).

Example: Career-wise my mom has done many different things. She was a Medical Assistant, she is a journeyman in the construction union, she used to sell cars, she used to waitress, she used to manage apartment complexes, and just recently she got her real estate license. So now, all of a sudden, she has been thinking about going to film school to study documentary film making. But then she was also telling me how she is going back to school to study botany. And then a few days later she was telling me how she is going to open up a caregiver facility for Senior Citizens. So at some point I was like "So, what exactly are you doing with your real estate thing? How are you doing that and everything else?" I didn't ask it mean or anything but it's kinda obvious that you can't do all of these things at once. Well, it really bothered her that I said this. She felt like I was trying to shut her hopes and dreams down.

This scenario plays out all the time in our relationship but in smaller, more condensed ways.

But I have to say that one of my best friends is IEE and I don't see this as much in our relationship. Might be due to different subtypes or just the fact that he's not my Mom.

[IBTL]

When she talks about those who have left her you can say, "I don't have anything to contribute to this conversation and I don't want to talk about people who aren't' here to defend themselves."

I think that would work.

So sort of like family.

It's been 10 years so far.

Let us know!

I definitely will!

[Eliza Thomason]

My mother is IEE and I extinguish her all the time. This is using my ignoring function Ne. I guess the way it works is that she will be going off and off and off on all these "possibilities" that are not really all that possible and I try to listen but at some point I just start zoning out. When I really can't handle it anymore I tend to shut her down (not necessarily on purpose).

Example: Career-wise my mom has done many different things. She was a Medical Assistant, she is a journeyman in the construction union, she used to sell cars, she used to waitress, she used to manage apartment complexes, and just recently she got her real estate license. So now, all of a sudden, she has been thinking about going to film school to study documentary film making. But then she was also telling me how she is going back to school to study botany. And then a few days later she was telling me how she is going to open up a caregiver facility for Senior Citizens. So at some point I was like "So, what exactly are you doing with your real estate thing? How are you doing that and everything else?" I didn't ask it mean or anything but it's kinda obvious that you can't do all of these things at once. Well, it really bothered her that I said this. She felt like I was trying to shut her hopes and dreams down.

This scenario plays out all the time in our relationship but in smaller, more condensed ways.
...

This reminds me of a dear kind roommate in college, not sure type, some kind of IxxJ, probably IxTJ, but she had a very different personality than me, very quiet, ordered, practical, logical-sequential. All her time was ordered, unrushed, and she was rather staid and sparse, to me. She asked me one Friday what I was doing this weekend. (Something no one needed to ask her since she always did the same things). I started in on all the things I was going to do now that I was sprung from classes for a whole weekend.. On and on. I finished and she looked at me astonished. "No one can possibly do all that in one weekend!" And at that moment I realized this was totally true. I always remember that conversation, that moment of truth and clarity, reality. Planning time realistically is not one of my natural strengths and I need to be aware of that natural lack.... Generating great ideas of what to do with my time - I have that one down.

I notice my Mirror, EII is very good at realistically planning her time. She also says "no" easier than me, so she can focus on HER priorities... My time can get side-tracked with new incoming suggestions..

[willekeurig]

I think lungs summed it up quite well.

I've had to spend almost all of today with my mom around, and I think I've got quite a few good examples. I am re-taking my upper secondary school final exam on math this week, and have been trying to study. It hasn't really gone too well, partly because it's been five years since the last time I did math, and partly because of my concentration problems. Basically I suck at stuff 14-year olds are being taught in secondary school. Whenever I've mentioned this to her or shown any signs of frustration, she's said something like "With a brain like that I bet you're going to ace the exam" or "It probably helps that you've studied philosophy, as you are super good at thinking rationally!" None of the things she says have any ground in reality (the fact that I've read Descarted doesn't exactly help me understand derivatives or integrals or any of the other cool sounding words) so it feels like she's completely dismissing both my experience/feelings and the fact that I evidently can't do shit. She also acts like an over-excited cheerleader whenever I get the simplest things right. I can't help but be offended if someone thinks me managing to solve a simple quadratic equation (with the help of a book) is worth a toast. She is seemingly disappointed when I don't join in to the Fe fest, and probably thinks I'm a real party pooper.

[Iris]

She also acts like an over-excited cheerleader whenever I get the simplest things right. I can't help but be offended if someone thinks me managing to solve a simple quadratic equation (with the help of a book) is worth a toast.

Ugh, please let me not have done that. But I probably have. *winces*

[willekeurig]

Ugh, please let me not have done that. But I probably have. *winces*

Aww

I wonder how an LSI in a similar situation would react to her. They'd sure be able to see her cheering doesn't reflect reality, but would they be inspired by the fact that someone shows emotional support or something? I can't really picture the situation.

[epheme]

I wonder how an LSI in a similar situation would react to her. They'd sure be able to see her cheering doesn't reflect reality, but would they be inspired by the fact that someone shows emotional support or something? I can't really picture the situation.

They would act like they think it's silly how excited you are getting over their menial accomplishment, but secretly they would love it. Makes them feel encouraged.

[gabrielle]

So how do you extinguish others with your ignoring (7th) function?

Me to EII sister-in-law when I have to be around her too much, "Isn't that precious."


EII sister-in-law to me, "Overdoing it much."

[gabrielle]

@Iris, or anyone else, does the extinguishment relationship has a competitive element or edge to it?

It feels like that to me sometimes. I'm new to socionics, but as I understand it so far the ignoring function is just the other side of our ego. So for me, Fi is something I feel proficient in but don't need to demonstrate or show all the time. It's the private side to my personality. So, when I see it out there, kind of obvious in someone it comes across as....hmmm...not sure of the best way to word it....untoward...maybe. As in, inside I am making a negative judgment of "Did you really have to do that/go there/be like that?"

When I'm around my SIL for example, at family events, we understand each other on a certain elemental level, but on the other hand, dynamically we end up shutting each other down after not long. I've always felt like it was a competing thing with her. It seems like she disapproves of any attention I get (which Fe kind of ends up doing), even when I'm just 'hangin around. It actually makes for a really uncomfortable social feeling being around that.

[Iris]

Me to EII sister-in-law when I have to be around her too much, "Isn't that precious."


EII sister-in-law to me, "Overdoing it much."

Ha, oh my gosh. That is a perfect example. I never thought about it as competing, but yes, it probably has an element of competition.

[rat1]

If you're desperate than you are. SO what?

[Joy]

I was pouring my heart out on the phone to a friend about an issue that was really important to me. My EII cousin overheard me and when I got off the phone, she said, "You sounded so desperate," in a mildly reproachful tone of voice. It was interesting because she has the same concerns, but Fe is her ignoring function. So I have been trying to figure out how I might extinguish an EII using Fi.

EIIs have strong likes and dislikes of people, places, and things. If she expressed a dislike of something, you might tell her that she should suck it up and just roll with it so as not to dampen the Fe atmosphere. Fi is static though, so it's unlikely to have as much of an impact on her as her comment had on you. She'll just shrug it off and continue feeling how she feels (even if she agrees to go along with whatever it is you're talking about).

So how do you extinguish others with your ignoring (7th) function?

I can't think of a time I've seen this work with a contrary. I see the 7th function more as something that you won't allow others to enforce on you, not something you actively try to negate in them. (That could just be my own "live and let live" perspective on it though.) For an EIE, it would mean that if someone tells you to use more Fi, you'll just be like, "My Fi is perfectly fine, thank you very much. The real point here is the Fe!"

I'm guessing that your cousin only felt comfortable expressing her perspective about your phone conversation because you two are close. It may have also been related to her comparing the way she feels comfortable dealing with the issue to the way you dealt with it.

[blackburry]

BURN



kidding.

Certain Fes annoy me all the time at school because they get overly excited about the littlest things even though many of them are one test away from failing out. They express their excitment for graduating all the time...and I think (I'm not a dick..I don't actually say it), "..ermm don't you mean if you graduate?..."
because just an hour ago, you were showing me your 68 test score...
Why not take the enthusiam and maybe study...rather than talk endlessly about it eh?

[Eldanen]

BURN



kidding.

Certain Fes annoy me all the time at school because they get overly excited about the littlest things even though many of them are one test away from failing out. They express their excitment for graduating all the time...and I think (I'm not a dick..I don't actually say it), "..ermm don't you mean if you graduate?..."
because just an hour ago, you were showing me your 68 test score...
Why not take the enthusiam and maybe study...rather than talk endlessly about it eh?

I never did this in high school. I drifted through it more or less as a loner. Graduation was a foregone conclusion. Just another milestone. Nothing really significant. I had a lot of other stuff I was thinking about at the time.

[blackburry]

I never did this in high school. I drifted through it more or less as a loner. Graduation was a foregone conclusion. Just another milestone. Nothing really significant. I had a lot of other stuff I was thinking about at the time.

yeah, same.


ftr, the four people who did it at school are all ESE-Fes.

[blank]

I find that whenever I enter into a debate with an EII it usually ends with them incapable of fielding any sort of well thought out dialogue and simply relying upon their uninformed generalizations/prejudices to ostensibly judge me in some way so they can defend themselves from further inquiry. Either that or they're just rude little shits who think they know better because "I have feelings/ethical judgments, I just know". I probably am too probing and abrasive for them as introverts when it comes to discussion and rarely ever align with their political points of view. I feel that they attach themselves to beliefs out of blind feeling and lack the capacity to critically distance themselves from their ethical judgments. I find it difficult to take them seriously as thinkers for this stubbornness and inflexibility. Many EII males are just creepy or toolish. Others are simply too immature in a way that overcompensates for their lack of Se. However, this may vary because I have interacted with some awesome, charming and mature EIIs. If we keep the interactions to lighter topics and to sharing in personal interests things go well.

[JoshuaHilderberg]

Wow. Well first as to comeback to the EII's rude statement to you, when you realize someone has hurt you with their words and you haven't have time to process just what it is they said and why it hurt, you can always come back with "What?", asked without irritation but kind of mild blank curiosity that shows you sincerely wonder why anyone would ever say such an odd thing. They can repeat it (getting to hear their own rude selves again, a chance to second guess how that might have sounded to hear) and if you are still not satified (or they aren't uncomfortable yet) you can then say, "Why would you say that?". They respond, and you can still look at them silently for a moment, ending it with, "That is an odd thing to say." or "That is rude" (or "unkind"). And in this you are not acting badly as she was, because you are not saying her "You are..."; you are instead saying to her, "That is...", thereby addressing what she said, not her entire character, which is more appropriate and just.

It works every time.

It is interesting. Yes, it is better to address what she said rather than herself. Otherwise it can go out of hand quickly

I have a question. Do you think that in this situation, the EII would see what is rude or how what she said is rude ?

I ask this, because my Fi is weak (as role function it needs training), I personally wouldn't understand especially when younger I would feel lost in these kind of situations, so I wonder what would be the perspective of the EII in this situation.

[darya]

im not sure about "extinguishment" per se but with Fe types sometimes its like they're communicating on a certain emotional plane that i'm expected to match and mirror and it can be hard for me to engage with that if i'm not already there myself. so i might just literally ignore it, or i might try to go along in order to be nice but probably come off like i'm condescendingly humoring them. like when i worked with a bunch of betas i developed this habit of a dry fake laugh that i hated even as i was doing it but it was a defensive way of dealing with them when i couldn't genuinely step onto the same page.

i don't remember ever feeling like my Fi was "extinguished" by an Fe leading type, honestly. the closest thing i can think of is talking to an IEI friend about somebody i thought didn't like me and she kept reassuring me in a blase way, like, "of course she likes you, don't be silly *laugh*" and it bothered me that she wasn't taking it seriously so i pressed the issue until she said she'd figure it out but i could tell she was just saying it to shut me up and that she was annoyed.

Very well put. I've the exact similar experience with Fi-leading types,. Like they're on a different emotional level, locked inside themselves, and it's really exhausting and frustrating to get them out. I often get annoyed or start resenting them. I can dig them a lot as people or one-on-one see them as dear friends, but when we're in groups I get annoyed with how they drag the whole thing down. There's truly nothing more disheartening then someone not reacting to my Fe and getting on the same level emotionaly, whether loving things together, bitching together - that's how I connect to people. And when someone doesn't appreciate or mirror that it's such a bummer. It's difficult to understand how someone can see emotions as something so personal and not collective thing to connect with and share.

But ESE's often annoy the shit out of me too with what they get excited over - their pinky happyness and fake smiles can be gross.