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Thread: Article on the Reinin Dichotomies I'm Writing

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    sindri's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Article on the Reinin Dichotomies I'm Writing

    I'm the person who came up with this pyramid model of the reinin dichotomies:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tomies-Pyramid

    I am in the process of writing an article to present this idea and much more I have not shared over the internet. I just finish the introduction reviewing how to use the Jungain-Reinin dichotomies, and thought I'd share it. I'd love any feedback you care to give.

    The introduction
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B63...it?usp=sharing

    *Edit
    Here is the list of dichotomies in the correct order:

    Vector True Trait False Trait
    1 Non-Null Null
    E Extrovert Introvert
    N Intuitive Sensory
    T Logical Ethical
    P Irrational Rational
    EN Carefree Farsighted
    ET Yielding Obstinate
    EP Static Dynamic
    NT Democratic Aristocratic
    NP Tactical Strategic
    TP Constructivist Emotivist
    ENT Positivist Negativist
    ENP Judicious Decisive
    ETP Merry Serious
    NTP Process Result
    ENTP Asking Declaring
    Last edited by sindri; 02-20-2014 at 05:15 AM.

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    Knowing all four dichotomies is enough information to define each TIM (Type of Information

    Metabolism) in socionics. For example, a person who is Extroverted, Sensory, Intuitive and Irrational is


    the type ESTp
    Isn't this kind of a step backwards?

    Regarding the pyramid and its introduction: what does it all mean? Or, what are the implications?

    Right now it looks to me like an unnecessarily complex typing method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    Isn't this kind of a step backwards?

    Regarding the pyramid and its introduction: what does it all mean? Or, what are the implications?

    Right now it looks to me like an unnecessarily complex typing method.
    There is a myth here in the US that Model A and the Jungian and Reinin dichotomies are separate independent theories that are not relevant to each other. One reason I am writing this article is to show that they are identical, down to the functions and information elements. Model A view offers a simple holistic view of a TIM (Type of Information Metabolism) while the Jungian and Reinin dichotomies list each structural detail. Both are important

    This understanding is important to developing better type descriptions and advancing the theory. Remember, the pyramid form is only a diagram, it is not a new theory. It works strictly within the rules and structure of classical socionics. But it can be used to see new connections that people have not thought of.

    The reason I made it was I was having a hard time understanding how all the dichotomies related. I knew you could type people from only 4 of the 15 dichotomies but I didn't know which ones I could use. The pyramid visually shows what traits are dependent on each other, making typing possible. You can of course do this the math presented in this introduction, but you really need a pen and paper. I can do all 900 dichotomy combinations in my head just by imagining the reinin pyramid.

    Pyramid notation lets you do a few things.
    - easy to teach people, anyone can learn how to use it based on simple rules. No learning abstract algebra
    - visualizes the math, making abstract patterns easy to see
    - makes the whole system simple enough to memorize and use mentally in real time. This means it is much easier to learn and apply the Reinin dichotomies with someone in a conversation.
    - shows exactly how each dichotomy positions elements in model A

    Some cool things that are simple in pyramid form
    - show there are exactly 35 small groups and how they all relate
    - show what traits and small groups different relationship archetypes share
    - abstract things, like deconstruct a TIM pyramid into information elements and functions using only dichotomies

    My hope is that more people will be able to learn and use the Jungian and Reinin dichotomies correctly and socionics will benefit as a result.

    I'm now working on the section on how to actually use and apply the pyramid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    I am in the process of writing an article to present this idea and much more I have not shared over the internet. I just finish the introduction reviewing how to use the Jungain-Reinin dichotomies, and thought I'd share it. I'd love any feedback you care to give.

    The introduction
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B63...it?usp=sharing
    I like this geometrical representation! Your introduction assumes knowledge of mathematics in my opinion. I look forward to a description how to use the pyramid. I don't get it yet from the picture alone, but it's highly interesting, great.

    What I don't understand is, how a dichotomy can be represented as a point on a pyramid instead of as a line.

    I'm a fan of geometrical representations.

    For example this about socionics intertype relations:

    In a geometric representation, the functions of model A would form the 8 corner points of a cube in information space. Imagine a square with the corner points numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4. Then imagine a square below that, forming a cube, where on the lowest square corner point 5 is below corner point 1, 6 is below 3, 7 is below 4 and 8 is below 4. Each type has its own cube. The volume of the cube is a quantitative parameter in this model. The intertype relations in the geometric model are:

    • 8 functions in common (a cube in a cube), interaction superdense: Identity
    • 4 functions in common (faces of two cubes match): Duality (matching top and bottom faces), Mirror (matching left and right faces) or Conflict (matching front and back faces)
    • 2 functions in common (ribs of two cubes match), low-density relations: Activation (matching horizontal ribs), Quasi-identity (matching horizontal ribs), Super-ego (matching vertical ribs)
    • 1 function in common (a corner point of two cubes matches), ultra-low density relations: Extinguishment

    Now let's turn the cube inside out, to simulate a fourth dimension. This means that function 2 (corner point top right front of the cube) changes position with function 4 (corner point top left rear of the cube), and function 6 (corner point bottom right front of the cube) swaps with function 8 (corner point bottom left rear of the cube).
    • 8 functions in common (a cube in a cube), interaction superdense: Kindred
    • 4 functions in common (faces of two cubes match): Semi-duality (matching top and bottom faces), Supervisee (matching left and right faces) or Supervisor (matching front and back faces)
    • 2 functions in common (ribs of two cubes match), low-density relations: Benefeciairy (matching horizontal ribs), Benefactor (matching horizontal ribs) or Cooperation (matching vertical ribs)
    • 1 function in common (a corner point of two cubes matches), ultra-low density relations: Mirage


    And this about the enneagram:

    Imagine a cone where the circular base represents the enneagram symbol. From the base, nine lines depart towards the apex of the cone while the level of health goes in the direction of healthier. The apex represents the point where nine lines come together, where individuals are fully conscious. Note that the distance between the nine lines becomes smaller in the direction of the apex, in other words the differences between persons are bigger if they are unhealthier, more unconscious.
    Last edited by Dutchman; 02-15-2014 at 03:19 PM.

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    Interesting, it does look beautiful, reminds me of a tree i drew recently.

    I think I follow, will want to absorb lots more info before i am comfortable enough to explain it to anyone else and still need some tuning myself but i believe i understand the basics of the diagram in theory.


    Edit: I did read through some of the intro too, again does not seem to confusing but will get into it when i am in the right space for taking it in.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminatronix View Post
    I did read through some of the intro too, again does not seem to confusing but will get into it when i am in the right space for taking it in.
    Looking forward to it ^u^

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    not totally uninteresting , but I don´t see the point in all this pyramid stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    I'm the person who came up with this pyramid model of the reinin dichotomies:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tomies-Pyramid

    I am in the process of writing an article to present this idea and much more I have not shared over the internet. I just finish the introduction reviewing how to use the Jungain-Reinin dichotomies, and thought I'd share it. I'd love any feedback you care to give.

    The introduction
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B63...it?usp=sharing
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    This reminds me of this post by socionics britannica, he is proposing 36 reinn dichotomies instead. His reinn trait theory is in beta but it follows similar maths

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    This reminds me of this post by socionics britannica, he is proposing 36 reinn dichotomies instead. His reinn trait theory is in beta but it follows similar maths
    His maths are wrong.

    ....Unless he is doing something brilliant, like incorporating weird dichotomies like the Keirsey dichotomies Cooperative - Utilitarian and Informative - Directive. The Jungian - Reinin are symmetric in the sense that every dichotomy group have an even number of every other dichotomy present in each trait. For example half of extroverts are logical and half are ethical, half of asking types are merry, half are serious, etc. With the Keirsey types, for example Informative - Directive, a forth of Informative types are MBTI Judging (structurally similar to socionics Dynamic types), and three fourths are MBTI Perceiving (structurally the same as static types) and vice versa for Directive traits. Being an asymmetrical dichotomy, it exist in a separate group space from the Jungian - Reinin dichotomies. You should be able to define these asymmetrical group spaces and convert between them and the normal dichotomies but I have not figured out how yet.

    If he was using this idea, his dichotomies would be multiples of 15 which 37 is not.

    You can also create more dichotomies by using more dimension to define a type. Socionics is 4 dimensional, meaning 16 different types. By adding another vector, say base subtype - creative subtype, you would exponentially increase the number of dichotomies

    Dimension => # of dichtomies
    1 => 1
    2 => 3
    3 => 7
    4 =>15
    5 => 31
    6 => 63
    7 => 127

    Again 37 dichotomies is not on this list.

    More likely he is yet another humanitarian who knows in his heart that all people are these beautiful snowflakes and doesn't understand the math of socionics.

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    @sindri I really like you nature, it seems like most people here barely care.

    I asked him some questions about this before like even why he has strange names for some of the dichotomies. Though for the dichotomies he said it helps removes confusion, saying that serious ethical types are not that serious in the meaning of the word... What I also assumed in that is that also logical merry types are not really that merry plus ethical merry types could be offended if they supposedly lack a serious side in their personality.

    Anyway the maths was something I was keen to ask too and it turns out that he uses the exclusive-or, XOR maths to derive the dichotomies present. He said the reinn traits fundamentally group types based on what they devalue.

    Taking the derivative traits for example, like aristocracy democracy, Aristocrats devalue intuition paired with logic and sensing paired with ethics, that is what makes them share the reinnin trait. Anyway that is just the skeleton of the trait, they are supposed to be fleshed out later to help people understand what that would mean without the ambiguity he is trying to rid of socionics.

    BTW he is working on a super theory that merges socionics and enneagram to create a holistic theory. He is quite ambitious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    @sindri I really like you nature, it seems like most people here barely care.

    I asked him some questions about this before like even why he has strange names for some of the dichotomies. Though for the dichotomies he said it helps removes confusion, saying that serious ethical types are not that serious in the meaning of the word... What I also assumed in that is that also logical merry types are not really that merry plus ethical merry types could be offended if they supposedly lack a serious side in their personality.

    Anyway the maths was something I was keen to ask too and it turns out that he uses the exclusive-or, XOR maths to derive the dichotomies present. He said the reinn traits fundamentally group types based on what they devalue.

    BTW he is working on a super theory that merges socionics and enneagram to create a holistic theory. He is quite ambitious
    Aww thanks. This IS important to me - I've been working on my model for the past half a year and it is quite simple once you understand it.

    If you are Facebook friends with the Socionics Britannica guy, invite him to to this thread. I'd love to hear what he has to say and if he is into the math, he might find this intro interesting too.

    I don't know much about the enneagram theory, so I don't know if you could unify the two theories except by statistical correlation, but if he can, that would be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    Aww thanks. This IS important to me - I've been working on my model for the past half a year and it is quite simple once you understand it.

    If you are Facebook friends with the Socionics Britannica guy, invite him to to this thread. I'd love to hear what he has to say and if he is into the math, he might find this intro interesting too.

    I don't know much about the enneagram theory, so I don't know if you could unify the two theories except by statistical correlation, but if he can, that would be interesting.
    What did you think of the 37 reinin traits? The new ones seem theoretical but they do seem possible huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    What did you think of the 37 reinin traits? The new ones seem theoretical but they do seem possible huh?
    I talked to him about it on that picture you linked (you can read it if you want http://on.fb.me/1f4WbDk .) I think that his additional 27 dichotomies are really just the 15 known dichotomies. So he has not discovered anything new.

    Because I use my pyramid, his mistakes are obvious but if I was just using vectors, it would be an easy mistake to make, especially given how little information on how to use the Reinin dichotomies is out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    I talked to him about it on that picture you linked (you can read it if you want http://on.fb.me/1f4WbDk .) I think that his additional 27 dichotomies are really just the 15 known dichotomies. So he has not discovered anything new.

    Because I use my pyramid, his mistakes are obvious but if I was just using vectors, it would be an easy mistake to make, especially given how little information on how to use the Reinin dichotomies is out there.
    Who is him?
     
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    Socionics -
    the16types.info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Who is him?
    The guy who runs the Socionics Britannica Facebook page. I don't know his name.

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    That is Soupman, he hides behind two avatars, Britannica School of Socionics and Soupman. Kind of a insecurity thing, or split personality.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


    Socionics -
    the16types.info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    That is Soupman, he hides behind two avatars, Britannica School of Socionics and Soupman. Kind of a insecurity thing, or split personality.
    BAWHAHAHAHA. So that's why he has an unlisted facebook picture link and lives in "Grand Britain" you had me fooled soup man

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    @sindri @Saberstorm
    This is great I run Socionics Britannica, how could everyone be so stupid not to know that, everyone start calling me Socionics Britannica Man from now on, the pretentious overall masculine soupman guy is dead.

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    All joking aside @Saberstorm you do believe that I'm Socionics Britannica isn't?

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    I added a list of dichotomies in the first post

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    There is a myth here in the US that Model A and the Jungian and Reinin dichotomies are separate independent theories that are not relevant to each other.
    Really? Where? Not on this forum imho.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Really? Where? Not on this forum imho.
    I'm sure there are but you are the first person I've had the pleasure to talk with who does ^u^. If you know any more, send them this way - I'd love there help!

    If you're interested, here is an appendix section I've been working on that list the theoretical properties of each dichotomy:
    http://bit.ly/1oV3aS4

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    an appendix section I've been working on that list the theoretical properties of each dichotomy:
    http://bit.ly/1oV3aS4
    Why are dichotomies represented as points on your pyramids? I would think dichotomies should be represented as lines?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Why are dichotomies represented as points on your pyramids? I would think dichotomies should be represented as lines?
    How would lines represent dichotomies?

    In my model, lines show how each dichotomy relates mathematically. A group of 3 points on the same line are a small groups, or a quaternion. http://bit.ly/1e1YwgX
    Last edited by sindri; 02-22-2014 at 06:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    How would lines represent dichotomies?

    In my model lines, show how each dichotomy relates mathematically. A group of 3 points on the same line are a small groups, or a quaternion. http://bit.ly/1e1YwgX
    I get it. I'm impressed by your files. You have a degree in mathematics?
    Why are not only the 4 corners of the pyramid independent dichotomies? Or do I misunderstand your colorful pyramid, the closed dots in it and the explanation to the right of it (the first picture in this thread)?

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    Yeah, you can totally combine Reinins, and it's been done before. Gulenko Cognitive Styles are combinations of Process/Result and Positivist/Negativist, and the quadras themselves are drawn by any two of the following three: Aristocratic/Democratic, Merry/Serious, Judicious/Decisive. Have fun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    I get it. I'm impressed by your files. You have a degree in mathematics?
    I'm in college now for MechE. I can get a math minor if I take like two extra classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    Why are not only the 4 corners of the pyramid independent dichotomies? Or do I misunderstand your colorful pyramid, the closed dots in it and the explanation to the right of it (the first picture in this thread)?
    I'm not sure exactly what you're asking but the 15 points are all independant dichotomies. If you want, you can even type someone with only reinin dichotomies.

    When you solve 2 dichotomies, the 3rd dichotomy on the line formed by the first 2 is dependant. Add another dichotomy, combine it with each of the 3 dichotomies to result in 3 more dependant dichotomies (for a total of 3 known and 4 derived dichotomies.) Then, solve for 1 more of the remaining 8 dichotomies and then you have enough information to derive every other dichotomy.

    Following those rules, this is what you get at each level:
    1 dichotomy: a single point
    2 dichotomies: a line of 3 point, a small group
    3 dichotomies: a surface of 7 points, an intertype relationship
    4 dichotomies: the whole pyramid, a TIM

    Hope this answers your question.
    Last edited by sindri; 02-22-2014 at 04:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    Following those rules, this is what you get at each level:
    1 dichotomy: a single point
    2 dichotomies: a line of 3 point, a small group
    3 dichotomies: a surface of 7 points, an intertype relationship
    4 dichotomies: the whole pyramid, a TIM

    Hope this answers your question.
    A great way of putting it into words.

    My only point was that the first picture in this thread suggests, by showing closed dots and a legenda, that there are more than 4 dichotomies but there aren't. I understand.

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    What?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    A great way of putting it into words.

    My only point was that the first picture in this thread suggests, by showing closed dots and a legenda, that there are more than 4 dichotomies but there aren't. I understand.
    You do understand that you can use any of the 15 dichotomies and each point is a dichotomy? So by solving 4 independant dichotomies, you have also solve for the 11 others dichotomies too. The whole system is 4 dimensional, but there are 15 dichotomies total.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    What?
    What don't you understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sindri View Post
    What don't you understand?
    Sorry about that. I am after my seventh vodka shot and counting, and just wanted to say: "let the beta Quadra have their fun."

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