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Thread: Business communication orientation vs Status Achievement motivation orientation TE VS SE

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    Default Business communication orientation vs Status Achievement motivation orientation TE VS SE

    Quote Originally Posted by silke
    In my experience, xLEs live up to this description from communication styles: "Business-inclined sociotypes expect to meet their other half in the whirlpool of their activities." in that they tend to under-invest efforts into finding romantic partners. They occupy themselves with pursuit of their interests and their work, and hook up with whoever they happen to encounter on their way whom they find interesting, turning to such venues as dating websites only if they are out of other choices. So it's up to their duals to ensure that they bump into them
    (This is in contrast to the 'passionate' ExFx types, such as ENFps, who is much more active in this respect. I've been hit on and actively pursued by IEEs way more often than my duals, especially online.)
    Whats the difference between the interests of business communication orientated people and status orientated people? Bad examples for this are LSE and SLE since they value both status and business orientation, however the difference is more stark between ESE SEE, who are status orientated and ILE LIE who are business orientated. How can you explain the difference between these two orientation forms?

    Whats the crucial difference between business and status orientated individuals? Te vs Se

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    Moderator Reficulris's Avatar
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    I'm business orientated? I'm sooooo watching this thread to see what that's supposed to mean ^^

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    Where are these terms deriving from? I've heard TJ referred to as business-like, whereas TP resourceful.

    But as far as your question(in a very broad unapplicable sense that makes total sense to me, and only me)... T is thinking to get stimulation, while S is searching for stuff to get that stimulation. Of course S is going to put more work into finding a significant other.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    @Pookie
    @silke I'd be more interested in your response to this
    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    I'm business orientated? I'm sooooo watching this thread to see what that's supposed to mean ^^
    The four communication styles

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ication-Styles
    http://translate.google.com/translat...soul_body.html

    Just in case you didn't know, LII, ILI, LSI, SLI all have Ti as their strongest functions in their personality and this conflicts with the quadra values but when its observed its evident as why its true. Ti is a byproduct of logic and introversion preference, understanding that its becomes a lot clearer why for example ILE and SLE actually have far weaker Ti in their overall personality, mannerisms, lacking much introversion driven logic is observed in them.

    If quadra values are so sacred to you and you don't have any interests in challenging them, isolating the objective building blocks of socionics then this won't make much sense. Also poetic terminology that is used to describe the information elements like, Time Profit Relations Emotions Invention Structual-logic Force and Sensation, don't seem to mean much when you closely analyse how they fit real people. Business communication is something that is difficult to comprehend when going with the shallow definitions of the terms, again also LIE are invention orientated actually like ILE and Ne is stronger in their personality than Ni, they have far more Ne than LII, who value introversion and intuition.
    Last edited by Soupman; 02-14-2014 at 06:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Whats the difference between the interests of business communication orientated people and status orientated people? Bad examples for this are LSE and SLE since they value both status and business orientation, however the difference is more stark between ESE SEE, who are status orientated and ILE LIE who are business orientated. How can you explain the difference between these two orientation forms?

    Whats the crucial difference between business and status orientated individuals? Te vs Se
    The meaning of the word "business" in socionics isn't the same as the Oxford dictionary definition of this word. You are trying to conceive of it literally when it was coined for communication styles in a figurative sense.

    The Russian word that automatic translators translate as "business" is "деловой". This is an adjective that is derived from the noun "дело" which means "a task" or a "project" or "something to do" in its very basic interpretation. The adjective "деловой" is thus also used in Russian language to describe a person who is who is active in getting tasks done, somebody who is "action-oriented", "engaged", "busy with stuff to do" or "proactive". This interpretation of the word "деловой" is imo semantically closer to how it should be understood in the context of socionics rather than understanding it in context of business, finances, accounting, stocks, ipos, money, commerce and so on. (Similarly Te which is called "деловая логика" in Russian can be also translated into "logic of actions" rather than "business logic". I've written about this in another thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post987251)

    Coming back to communication styles, the word "business" in "business communication style" has nothing to do with prestige and actual business. And Se has nothing to do with status. You can encouter types with weak Se to be engaged in a very fierce, prolonged and determined campaign for achieving personal and social dominance, for instance: link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    The meaning of the word "business" in socionics isn't the same as the Oxford dictionary definition of this word. You are trying to conceive of it literally when it was coined for communication styles in a figurative sense.

    The Russian word that automatic translators translate as "business" is "деловой". This is an adjective that is derived from the noun "дело" which means "a task" or a "project" or "something to do" in its very basic interpretation. The adjective "деловой" is thus also used in Russian language to describe a person who is who is active in getting tasks done, somebody who is "action-oriented", "engaged", "busy with stuff to do" or "proactive". This interpretation of the word "деловой" is imo semantically closer to how it should be understood in the context of socionics rather than understanding it in context of business, finances, accounting, stocks, ipos, money, commerce and so on. (Similarly Te which is called "деловая логика" in Russian can be also translated into "logic of actions" rather than "business logic". I've written about this in another thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post987251)

    Coming back to communication styles, the word "business" in "business communication style" has nothing to do with prestige and actual business. And Se has nothing to do with status. You can encouter types with weak Se to be engaged in a very fierce, prolonged and determined campaign for achieving personal and social dominance, for instance: link.
    You misunderstand my point essentially, if you assume that is the case. Have you learnt a second language as an adult? The trouble with translation, runs much deeper than that, at the core of the issue is ambiguity where the same term can be interpreted in different ways.

    Are you learning ''russky'' out of interest?

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    @silke

    Actually there is a lot that is wrong with translating деловая as action even, it undermines the intellectual analytical perspective behind it. Management is actually a superior translation for the term since it actually encapsulates the ''rational''/''rationality'' nature behind the information element; ILI and LIE are rather idealistic, when you observe their logic you will notice that the term action doesn't quite describe their analysis. However now when breaking down the meaning of the information element itself, the abstraction chosen for it ends up raising more questions than answers, this again goes back to the exact focus of the energomodel where ILE LIE are described as being fundamentally NE TE orientated individuals, its inline with reality.

    http://www.socioniks.net/biblioteka/...dprinim_G.html

    деловой-adjective

    business деловой, практический

    businesslike деловой, деловитый, практичный

    managing руководящий, ведущий, деловой, экономный, бережливый, энергичный

    biz деловой, практический

    no-nonsense серьезный, деловой

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    You misunderstand my point essentially, if you assume that is the case. Have you learnt a second language as an adult? The trouble with translation, runs much deeper than that, at the core of the issue is ambiguity where the same term can be interpreted in different ways. Are you learning ''russky'' out of interest?
    You've reiterated what I wrote - that yes, there is ambiguity embedded in translation of the word "деловой" and "business" is only one of several possible translations. This translation isn't the closest one to how Te was originally described - see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Actually there is a lot that is wrong with translating деловая as action even, it undermines the intellectual analytical perspective behind it. Management is actually a superior translation for the term since it actually encapsulates the ''rational''/''rationality'' nature behind the information element; ILI and LIE are rather idealistic, when you observe their logic you will notice that the term action doesn't quite describe their analysis. However now when breaking down the meaning of the information element itself, the abstraction chosen for it ends up raising more questions than answers, this again goes back to the exact focus of the energomodel where ILE LIE are described as being fundamentally NE TE orientated individuals, its inline with reality.
    You and I must live in very different realities. Most of the Te types I've met aren't involved in business or management of any kind. Even judging by the posters on this forum this wouldn't be an accurate interpretation for Te.

    "Logic of actions" is also closer to how it was first described by A. Augusta in her work "The Dual Nature of Man". I've looked for any mentions of "management" or "business orientation" in her original text - but didn't find any.

    "The main thing that logical-sensory extravert values is logic, the ability to make rational and logical actions."
    "Interestingly, he [LSE] pay most attention not to the intelligence of others, which, in his view, is constant, unchanging, independent from the person himself quantity, but to person's ability to act rationally and his or her appearance."
    "He [ILI] loves those who are strong, confident in their path in life ... and who utilize the methods of action that were invented by him." [which is the main function of ILI's creative Te]
    "Their [SEE's] initiative and activity is so high that no criticism, even constant nagging of the intuitive logical introvert, who condemns almost every manifestation of activity, spoils their mood. On the contrary, such criticism calms down his SEE duals, shows that they have done and are doing a lot, that their actions have been noted."

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Are you learning ''russky'' out of interest?
    I happen to be a native speaker.

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    I think silke is right.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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