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Thread: Ode to Fi+Se

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    Default Ode to Fi+Se

    You are stifling.
    I hate you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    The elements.

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    bump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    You are stifling.
    I hate you.
    lol.. what happened?

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    Conflictors conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    lol.. what happened?
    Nothing lately. Just realized anew how Se and Fi frameworks are a doom of me when internalized.
    Se is about drive, inertia and force-field of an object, in people being based in "just so" baseless empty axioms of will. I do not experience to have drive and force-field, and having to master will is begrudge/rejected based on the feeling sourceless/meaningless/unrewarding/unnatural. So what is left to experience of self through the framework of Se is stranded, drifting inertia and negativity.
    Fi is a web of obligations. Maybe not fundamentally but how gamma SF express it an what it ends up to me -- a drag and a ponzi scheme. Not a perspective to look on life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Well isn't Ti a "web of obligations" as well?
    Certainly have not thought about it possibly being experienced as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    In a system like socionics, where all types & functions are equally balanced, I don't see how you can attribute such negative classifications to the functions opposite of you without realizing the downsides in your own weak functions.

    I'm bad at Ni, for example. But I don't hate it. It has a purpose. I wouldn't classify Ni as "not a perspective to look on life". That's just being close-minded about how others view the world. That's stereotyping others instead of trying to understand or relate to them. That line of thinking will only generate more hate & anger instead of trust & understanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Nothing lately. Just realized anew how Se and Fi frameworks are a doom of me when internalized.
    Se is about drive, inertia and force-field of an object, in people being based in "just so" baseless empty axioms of will. I do not experience to have drive and force-field, and having to master will is begrudge/rejected based on the feeling sourceless/meaningless/unrewarding/unnatural. So what is left to experience of self through the framework of Se is stranded, drifting inertia and negativity.
    Fi is a web of obligations. Maybe not fundamentally but how gamma SF express it an what it ends up to me -- a drag and a ponzi scheme. Not a perspective to look on life.
    You sure don't put much effort in to reading what people say while championing understanding.
    Subjectivity is stated and so is admission that the view may not be fundamentally right, while the point is rejection of perspectives not functional for you. Since the perspectives are not fundamentally wrong I cannot reject them logically, which is why rare occurrence of hate/anger/self-preservation was found appropriate and commemorated.

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    wait, what, a ponzi scheme?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    wait, what, a ponzi scheme?
    pyramid game, ponzi scheme, its a way of conning people. It starts by recruiting people into an investment that will only yield money if they, in turn find new investors. Every investor gets money from everyone below him in the pyramid. It keeps yielding money as long as new investors are being found and falls utterly appart when people start to think. But by that time the top of the pyramid has picked up their stuff and skipped town.

    It is an archetypical scam in the sense that a lot of the modern day investment scams are based on its general principle....

    Some religious use it, Scientology for instances has a similar recruitment strategy and reaps benefits due to similar principles.

    It's not an elegant scam but it's effective.

    Edit:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    You sure don't put much effort in to reading what people say while championing understanding.
    I bet he is going to read it now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    pyramid game, ponzi scheme, its a way of conning people. It starts by recruiting people into an investment that will only yield money if they, in turn find new investors. Every investor gets money from everyone below him in the pyramid. It keeps yielding money as long as new investors are being found and falls utterly appart when people start to think. But by that time the top of the pyramid has picked up their stuff and skipped town.

    It is an archetypical scam in the sense that a lot of the modern day investment scams are based on its general principle....

    Some religious use it, Scientology for instances has a similar recruitment strategy and reaps benefits due to similar principles.

    It's not an elegant scam but it's effective.

    Edit:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
    oh i know, i'm just completely lost trying to figure out how on earth that could be attributed to gamma sf-ness.
    not offended or anything but baffled/curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    oh i know, i'm just completely lost trying to figure out how on earth that could be attributed to gamma sf-ness.
    not offended or anything but baffled/curious.
    haha lol, I read your question and asumed you wanted to know what a ponzi scheme was, but you meant, what the fuck is gamma SF ponzi-scheme-like.

    The answer to your question is "no fucking idea what the guy is talking about, sorry I butted in"

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    oh i know, i'm just completely lost trying to figure out how on earth that could be attributed to gamma sf-ness.
    not offended or anything but baffled/curious.
    Web of obligation. Owing back and forth. Owing you parents effectively on being born. Coerced transaction that has negative sum because of unworthwhily nature of it. Which can be simultaneously true and false because value is derived differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Web of obligation. Owing back and forth. Owing you parents effectively on being born. Coerced transaction that has negative sum because of unworthwhily nature of it. Which can be simultaneously true and false because value is derived differently.
    You know, you can always tell people "no, I'm not going to come to the family reunion". Nothing will happen.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Web of obligation. Owing back and forth. Owing you parents effectively on being born. Coerced transaction that has negative sum because of unworthwhily nature of it. Which can be simultaneously true and false because value is derived differently.
    more false than true amirite.. (I don't feel like anyone owes me anything and I dislike feeling like I owe anyone anything... infact that sort of pressure irks me). so. whaaaaaaaat.

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    Yeah, I think this is Alpha's perception of something that Gamma's wouldn't agree is what alpha's think it is. I mean, this is projected obligation due to alpha's way of processing the information. It's not "a family riunion" it's "I feel pressured into x if I don't do y cuz aunt z will talk to uncle b" etc etc.

    That isn't necessary the way gamma operates, it's how alpha's operate when dealing with a gamma context, basically our misunderstanding or failure to process the information easily makes it, in our perception, into something it is not.

    No-one in it's right mind would consider a family a ponzi scheme...however, I get where he comes from, it sometimes feels hard to basically try to understand the relationships and thus it becomes something like his "web of obligations".

    Am I making sense or am I making it more confusing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    lol
    between this and your like of FDG's post I will guess what is behind it, based on having I have seen it before. You feel defensive and justified in applying Se and Fi pressure, "They are supposed to eat it up" reverting to "A person should deal with it, something is wrong with them."
    Well apparently that is not how it is supposed to work for everyone, so no you are not justified in the attitude that could possibly result in to you begrudgingly playing house with your "ungrateful "loved ones"".
    Last edited by Esaman; 02-12-2014 at 10:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    between this and your like of FDG's post I will guess what is behind it, based on having I have seen it before. You feel defensive and justified in applying Se and Fi pressure, "They are supposed to eat it up" reverting to "A person should deal with it, something is wrong with them."
    Well apparently that is not how it is supposed to work for everyone, so no you are not justified the attitude that could possibly result in to your begrudgingly play house with your "ungrateful "loved ones"".
    i'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you're saying. maybe its the language barrier. are you talking about the thread i made about my family member?

    i interpreted fdg's post to be playful, not vindictive, and responded accordingly. no hard feelings on my part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Yeah, I think this is Alpha's perception of something that Gamma's wouldn't agree is what alpha's think it is. I mean, this is projected obligation due to alpha's way of processing the information. It's not "a family riunion" it's "I feel pressured into x if I don't do y cuz aunt z will talk to uncle b" etc etc.

    That isn't necessary the way gamma operates, it's how alpha's operate when dealing with a gamma context, basically our misunderstanding or failure to process the information easily makes it, in our perception, into something it is not.

    No-one in it's right mind would consider a family a ponzi scheme...however, I get where he comes from, it sometimes feels hard to basically try to understand the relationships and thus it becomes something like his "web of obligations".

    Am I making sense or am I making it more confusing?

    I actually feel this way x10 towards alpha SFs often. esp the ones at work. like I've to do something or act "normal" or they talk shit about me. they even talk shit about each other. it's exhausting. I retreat often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    I actually feel this way x10 towards alpha SFs often. esp the ones at work. like I've to do something or act "normal" or they talk shit about me. they even talk shit about each other. it's exhausting. I retreat often.
    Oh dear that sucks. I don't know that many alpha sf's so I didn't know they gossiped..... I can imagine retreating from that (even as alpha)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Web of obligation. Owing back and forth. Owing you parents effectively on being born. Coerced transaction that has negative sum because of unworthwhily nature of it. Which can be simultaneously true and false because value is derived differently.
    It feels far more constructive and beneficial to me to do great stuff for the people around you and to have a sort of expectation that it'll be returned; not as much about holding some type of moral knife against someone's throat, just a prediction that the good that's sent will be returned in a unique way, and confusion and disappointment when it somehow doesn't.

    If you got people you can resonate with big time, then it's you and them against the whole world, and just about all the limits around what you could do just vanish away. I'm peaceful as hell, but that ain't always what's sent towards me from a bulk of the world that has little to no familiarity with me whatsoever, and it feels like a war with infinite fronts seen and unseen much of the time. When people come together, that's where the magic happens, and I'd start with the people who are closest to me in the ways I'd find important. Stretch the length of time large enough and it's strictly a matter of sequence, and if my body ends up dead before I get the job done on a universal scale, then fuck it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Yeah, I think this is Alpha's perception of something that Gamma's wouldn't agree is what alpha's think it is. I mean, this is projected obligation due to alpha's way of processing the information. It's not "a family riunion" it's "I feel pressured into x if I don't do y cuz aunt z will talk to uncle b" etc etc.

    That isn't necessary the way gamma operates, it's how alpha's operate when dealing with a gamma context, basically our misunderstanding or failure to process the information easily makes it, in our perception, into something it is not.

    No-one in it's right mind would consider a family a ponzi scheme...however, I get where he comes from, it sometimes feels hard to basically try to understand the relationships and thus it becomes something like his "web of obligations".

    Am I making sense or am I making it more confusing?
    I understand what you mean, but I simply think (mind you: I could be wrong, but this style of thinking makes my life easier and so far it hasn't been damaging) that most decently adjusted people don't care that much about the lives of their extended families to make the whole ordeal such a mess.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Yeah, I think this is Alpha's perception of something that Gamma's wouldn't agree is what alpha's think it is. I mean, this is projected obligation due to alpha's way of processing the information. It's not "a family riunion" it's "I feel pressured into x if I don't do y cuz aunt z will talk to uncle b" etc etc.

    That isn't necessary the way gamma operates, it's how alpha's operate when dealing with a gamma context, basically our misunderstanding or failure to process the information easily makes it, in our perception, into something it is not.

    No-one in it's right mind would consider a family a ponzi scheme...however, I get where he comes from, it sometimes feels hard to basically try to understand the relationships and thus it becomes something like his "web of obligations".

    Am I making sense or am I making it more confusing?
    This is circular reasoning. By the same decree you can nullify all of the four quadras "perceptions". Have to disagree. Of course any one is free to make everything subjective...

    ... and if this Socionics gets the same treatment, well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Oh dear that sucks. I don't know that many alpha sf's so I didn't know they gossiped..... I can imagine retreating from that (even as alpha)
    eh gossip is ntr and so many things can be seen as "gossip," everybody mentions somebody who isn't in the room from time to time. i've definitely seen some alpha sfs gossip but i wouldn't worry about it being an "alpha sf thing" per se

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    Gossip is clearly Fe...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    This is circular reasoning. By the same decree you can nullify all of the four quadras "perceptions". Have to disagree. Of course any one is free to make everything subjective...
    you might be on to something. I do make things subjective. But than, you already saw that so you'll probably think this is redundant...

    I don't think all quadra's are perceptions, I think all quadra's will look at the other quadra's and have a sub-optimal view of what the quadra values are like. That means, alpha's misinterpret the values from beta gamma and delta and so on. In this sense, i'm kinda telling OP and the others that he's talking about his perception (yes, making it subjective) of those values rather than the meaning those values have for people from that quadra.

    it's basically telling OP that his view might be too extreme and telling the respondents to take into account that he looks at the subject through coloured glasses (not necesarilly rose coloured).

    Not sure if this eliminates the circularity or makes it worse,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    you might be on to something. I do make things subjective. But than, you already saw that so you'll probably think this is redundant...

    I don't think all quadra's are perceptions, I think all quadra's will look at the other quadra's and have a sub-optimal view of what the quadra values are like. That means, alpha's misinterpret the values from beta gamma and delta and so on. In this sense, i'm kinda telling OP and the others that he's talking about his perception (yes, making it subjective) of those values rather than the meaning those values have for people from that quadra.

    it's basically telling OP that his view might be too extreme and telling the respondents to take into account that he looks at the subject through coloured glasses (not necesarilly rose coloured).

    Not sure if this eliminates the circularity or makes it worse,
    I'm not entirely sure about this, but I was of the slant that Betas (socionics wise) 'misinterpret' Alpha stuff and, maybe, take it into extremes. Like I wrote, not entirely sure about this, for you have this commie guy Marx who is commonly(?) typed Alpha NT, and then you have people who are not, for example: Lenin, Stalin, etc. Some may argue those ideas were taken too far and over the top, but in fact, some may not and refer to both as faithful Marxists.

    What I am aiming at is OP's view of quadra stuff is in bounds of Socionics, if it were not, it wouldn't be Socionics. A new construct where, say, Gammas and Alphas live in Jehovah's Witnesses paradise. Again, original, religious Socionics scriptures put quadras in this way: Delta+Gamma, Beta+Alpha. Not the other way around.

    But liek I wrote, if one wants to treat it all subjective (one is free to), no such construct as Socionics, as we(?) know it and speak of in this very forum, exists.
    Last edited by Absurd; 02-12-2014 at 11:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Oh dear that sucks. I don't know that many alpha sf's so I didn't know they gossiped..... I can imagine retreating from that (even as alpha)
    Gossip and small talk is Alpha SF.

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    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    you might be on to something. I do make things subjective. But than, you already saw that so you'll probably think this is redundant...

    I don't think all quadra's are perceptions, I think all quadra's will look at the other quadra's and have a sub-optimal view of what the quadra values are like. That means, alpha's misinterpret the values from beta gamma and delta and so on. In this sense, i'm kinda telling OP and the others that he's talking about his perception (yes, making it subjective) of those values rather than the meaning those values have for people from that quadra.

    it's basically telling OP that his view might be too extreme and telling the respondents to take into account that he looks at the subject through coloured glasses (not necesarilly rose coloured).

    Not sure if this eliminates the circularity or makes it worse,
    I think he just looks through a pair of Socionics glasses which can be taken off anytime. Most things that people value come from life experience, not Quadras, from things and activities they are accustomed to and from their own set of cognitive schemes, tastes and dispositions. And if you still want to think in Quadras, how do you deal with "complications" that derive from one being raised in a fruitful outta-Quadra environment. Explain that, if you can.

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    for the record: I did say the alpha SFs I work with.

    the ones I work with people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ath View Post
    Considering HP cog's association with perspective, this may be yet another indicator of HP cog for you.
    Do you, or @Johannus Bloem have good sources about cognition styles? I have little idea about what holographic cognition is!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I think he just looks through a pair of Socionics glasses which can be taken off anytime. Most things that people value come from life experience, not Quadras, from things and activities they are accustomed to and from their own set of cognitive schemes, tastes and dispositions. And if you still want to think in Quadras, how do you deal with "complications" that derive from one being raised in a fruitful outta-Quadra environment. Explain that, if you can.
    I am to forever wonder why do I have to shovel through such crap here.
    Socionics is unproven theory. Some people found it to reflect their experience and so be true to significant degree. Why is there an other kind of people here is a question.

    As to your question. There are whole lot of circumstance and qualities of people to such a process, including the ones that exacerbate or diminish the conflicts of informational metabolism. Not only there are NTR things but expression of type/element itself is not singular. You can put your projection of simple mindedness and apply it to yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    I am to forever wonder why do I have to shovel through such crap here.
    Socionics is unproven theory. Some people found it to reflect their experience and so be true to significant degree. Why is there an other kind of people here is a question.

    As to your question. There are whole lot of circumstance and qualities of people to such a process, including the ones that exacerbate or diminish the conflicts of informational metabolism. Not only there are NTR things but expression of type/element itself is not singular. You can put your projection of simple mindedness and apply it to yourself.
    You can put your complete absorption of a random simplistic system like socionics aside and apply it to yourself. Socionics is an "idealistic" model, to say the least, believing in unproven things is not exactly something that entitles you to preach them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    You can put your complete absorption of a random simplistic system like socionics aside and apply it to yourself.
    Now that is flop of a comeback. I already do apply socionics to myself. Also you maintaining that socionics is simplistic when I just said how it is so only in your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Socionics is an "idealistic" model, to say the least, believing in unproven things is not exactly something that entitles you to preach them.
    Again Socionics for me works as interpretation (naming really) of actual experiences.

    Discussion of theory in a forum specific for that purpose does not constitute preaching. Butting in there with banal ignorant rebuttals does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Now that is flop of a comeback. I already do apply socionics to myself. Also you maintaining that socionics is simplistic when I just said how it is so only in your mind.
    Again Socionics for me works as interpretation (naming really) of actual experiences.

    Discussion of theory in a forum specific for that purpose does not constitute preaching. Butting in there with banal ignorant rebuttals does.
    It wasn't a comeback, I don't care what you think of Socionics, don't waste your time with this kind of stuff, really. I don't consider it a valid system, nothing in my life has gone according to their predictions and profiles and intertype relationships. Don't fret thinking that you may have some "Ti" to offer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    It wasn't a comeback, I don't care what you think of Socionics, don't waste your time with this kind of stuff, really. I don't consider it a valid system, nothing in my life has gone according to their predictions and profiles and intertype relationships. Don't fret thinking that you may have some "Ti" to offer.
    Cool, forget that "Ti" whatever. Here is logic:
    1. this is socionics forum.
    2. you don't consider socionics a valid system.
    Conclusion: you are wasting your time and don't belong.

    "I don't care what you think of Socionics, don't waste your time with this kind of stuff, "
    "You can put *** socionics aside and apply it to yourself."
    - Stringing contradictory statements.
    Conclusion: You should stop talking so that people can have doubts about you being stupid.

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