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    Default Type and desired government

    Every type seems to have their own opinion of how things should be run. I noticed that Ti/Fe people seem to like monarchies, and Fi/Te people seem to like capitalism. Anyone else notice this?

    Edit: Some intj's i met don't like how america is run, and some seem to favor communism.
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    Libertarianism/Anarchism, if all people were like me. But they aren't so I think Western democracy balances things out quite nicely...
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    What do you want yourself? Typically, I hear ENTps make very elitist statements, I think they're inclined to approval of totalitarianism, as long as they are part of the establishment.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    My method of government would be a collective. One mind

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    Knowing socionics makes it very hard to preffer any kind of system over another to benefit all, but if it was just for myself then the answer i suppose would be obvious but other types would suffer and quickly overthrow my system. I suppose the system forms based on what the world collective needs in a country, and then the government forms accordingly to give that society a role in the grand scheme, while trying to stay close to the middle. Then, and only then do the dominant types get to take on their roles in this society, but I believe it froms from the top down, with bottom up forces being present of course, but those are self serving, however popular and justified bottom up forces are what causes the govt to form. In some cases societies might form based on what the society is good at vs, what the world wants. This is similar to a gifted child who does not satisfy the demands of the parent and does their own thing.
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    Basically, I think any kind of political ideology is a rationalization of personality and the preferences flowing from it. I think the combination of Socionics, MBTI and psychpathology clearly shows this.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    It seems like a good idea, but I'm selfish and I don't want to share what I have, so I don't think I'd like communism. Maybe some sort of socialism.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Default Re: Type and desired government

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Every type seems to have their own opinion of how things should be run. I noticed that Ti/Fe people seem to like monarchies, and Fi/Te people seem to like capitalism. Anyone else notice this?

    Edit: Some intj's i met don't like how america is run, and some seem to favor communism.
    One of the socionics websites i'm babbeling has a dichotomy of Democratism "competition" vs Aristocratism "heirarchy.

    NT, SF, TN, FS are listed under Democratism "competition"
    ST, NF, TS, FN are listed under Aristocratism "heirarchy"

    I honestly don't know much of anything about politics, but I do know that I'm not into the whole competition thing.

    Though, I'm sure that either extreme would be unrealistic.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    i've actually noted a correlation between ti/fe and anarchism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    i've actually noted a correlation between ti/fe and anarchism
    me too, where did you notice it?
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    it wasn't from one source so how can i answer?

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    I want a bajillion goverment-ettes that are like 10 square miles each that I could taste test as I wandered the hillsides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    it wasn't from one source so how can i answer?
    I could mention certain Ti philosophers, for instance Ayn Rand etc.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    If Te/Fi want market anarchism... Then Fe/Ti would want social anarchism. And yes I have seen a lot oh hacker INTj ENTp kiddies wearing anarchy tshirts, and even owning anarchist cook book, if u watch bowling for columbine ull see what I mean.
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    Heh, I'm supposedly ENTp and I'm a communist.

    A few months ago, someone on revleft.com (a very large anarchism/communism message board) posted a link to an MBTI test. According to the test, the vast majority of active members there (all of whom were far leftists) were NTs, mostly INTPs and INTJs. I know it's MBTI, not Socionics, but that's one link I've noticed between Jungian typology and political idiologies.

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    So basicallt I can generalize then... Communists and anarchists are afraid of tough people and dont like feelings
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    I think that anarchy is ISTJ.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    I think that anarchy is ISTJ.
    that is probably the last thing istj is

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    Quote Originally Posted by xiuxiu
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    I think that anarchy is ISTJ.
    that is probably the last thing istj is
    Whats' your type xiu, if I may ask?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    esfp

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    Quote Originally Posted by xiuxiu
    esfp
    Are you sure?

    KEwl, asl if you don't mind.
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    yeah.... anarchy is NOT a TiSe thing!!!

    maybe more of an alpha thing? if it's type related, that is
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    About ISTJs, they are strange in some ways, they want to be free to pursue pleasure, yet they aslo want to follow orders and things. I am not sure how they balance these things.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    i think democracy is currently the best system for humanity, as far as quality of life is concerned. where it has failed, obviously, is in higher levels of government, though i don't really see a way around this problem, or a solution, as it is simply human nature to brazenly disregard logical forms and systems with a reckless intensity. as far as ideologies go, i would put my stock in libertarianism, but that is usually a slippery slope towards communism. again, human qualities will always get in the way of sound ideas and it will be thousands upon thousands of years before we begin to move away from this propensity for fallibility, evolutionarily speaking. that is, if we evolve much at all, as we are not consciously control of such forces. science could help towards remedying this, though, if science was permitted to advance and was not restricted and villified by the common philistine.

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    How old are you xiu?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xiuxiu
    i think democracy is currently the best system for humanity, as far as quality of life is concerned. where it has failed, obviously, is in higher levels of government, though i don't really see a way around this problem, or a solution, as it is simply human nature to brazenly disregard logical forms and systems with a reckless intensity. as far as ideologies go, i would put my stock in libertarianism, but that is usually a slippery slope towards communism. again, human qualities will always get in the way of sound ideas and it will be thousands upon thousands of years before we begin to move away from this propensity for fallibility, evolutionarily speaking. that is, if we evolve much at all, as we are not consciously control of such forces. science could help towards remedying this, though, if science was permitted to advance and was not restricted and villified by the common philistine.
    I agree, but I suggest we look at the human body as a microcosm of what government in the future may be, how do all the cells in our body vote? how do they all live in such harmony and accept their place. how do they divy up their resources? It was a long battle but it solidified more or less into a body that has purpose and is optimized. I believe human societies will also go through a similar process, we already see a global economy forming, and specialization of nations, this is like organs forming. Nuclear weapons helped to create a strong Fi between entities also. With such interdependance the suicide of one nation could whipe out every other nation.
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    i concur, slava, but i would argue that the human body is a hopeless analogy for governmental systems, other than the fact that what works in government works, and therefore survives as a reigning monolith of precedence, as is the case with evolution. and, what doesn't work, doesn't, and is forgotten. the two systems are very different though and you can only draw very vague and broad comparisons between them. beyond that there isn't much similarity, i don't think, though i am completely open to the elaborations/musings of others on this subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Quote Originally Posted by xiuxiu
    i think democracy is currently the best system for humanity, as far as quality of life is concerned. where it has failed, obviously, is in higher levels of government, though i don't really see a way around this problem, or a solution, as it is simply human nature to brazenly disregard logical forms and systems with a reckless intensity. as far as ideologies go, i would put my stock in libertarianism, but that is usually a slippery slope towards communism. again, human qualities will always get in the way of sound ideas and it will be thousands upon thousands of years before we begin to move away from this propensity for fallibility, evolutionarily speaking. that is, if we evolve much at all, as we are not consciously control of such forces. science could help towards remedying this, though, if science was permitted to advance and was not restricted and villified by the common philistine.
    I agree, but I suggest we look at the human body as a microcosm of what government in the future may be, how do all the cells in our body vote? how do they all live in such harmony and accept their place. how do they divy up their resources? It was a long battle but it solidified more or less into a body that has purpose and is optimized. I believe human societies will also go through a similar process, we already see a global economy forming, and specialization of nations, this is like organs forming. Nuclear weapons helped to create a strong Fi between entities also. With such interdependance the suicide of one nation could whipe out every other nation.
    so how do you see Programmed Cell Death fitting in?
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    I agree, but I suggest we look at the human body as a microcosm of what government in the future may be, how do all the cells in our body vote? how do they all live in such harmony and accept their place. how do they divy up their resources?
    they fight one another to the death until they get to the point where they learn that interdependence allows for more but, sometimes this never occurs. mind breaks apart and dies until it reforms anew. the body attacks itself as it replicates. it tears itself apart as when the man seeks out that which makes him wish to kill himself. it connotes pleasure with the harmful until it ultimately puts itself into a position of stagnation and death. it is merely luck that it somehow manages to scrap together the will to fight

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    Or, at the very least - INTps and ENTjs loathe the idea of someone else thinking they know how to run their lives better than they do and have a need to feel personally in control over their lives instead of relying on society to do it for them.

    I'm strongly in favor of a sort of market anarchy.
    I think the highlighted bit is correct, but it wouldn't explain why INTjs would be often in favor of state control since they, too, like independence in their lives. I can only assume that it's some sort of delusion that state control would follow the lines that they prefer. Perhaps types are simply more skeptical of any rigid system being in place.

    As for market anarchy, I sympathize with it far more than with socialism/communism/etc but it can only work in a legal framework where property and contractual rights are assured; otherwise we are in Mafia-like gangsterism (which is the spontaneous form of government that appears in the absence of a legal framework).


    Quote Originally Posted by xiuxiu
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    I think that anarchy is ISTJ.
    that is probably the last thing istj is
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by soggy-flakes
    I would like to see an upper limit as to the salary people can make. Why do celebrities and sports figures need to make multi-millions a year? I think the upper limit should be one million.
    Celebrities and sports figures make multi-million dollars a year because the general public is foolish enough - as is their right - to spend their money in entertainment connected to those figures. Julia Roberts (for instance) makes 15 million dollars per movie because Hollywood execs think (rightly or wrongly) that her presence in a movie will make more people want to spend their money watching it.


    If you cap her top earnings at 1 million, you are removing her freedom to accept the role that pays the most, and the freedom of the studios to offer her the money. The result would be less movies with her. That is a decision for the general public to make, not the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by soggy-flakes
    Have the rest of the money go towards building a universal health care system or something like that or increase the amount of pay that the working class receives. Just because some one is poor, doesn't mean that they should have to physically suffer because they don't have the insurance or can't afford some sort of treatment. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you deserve to life a healthier or longer life IMO.
    It has absolutely nothing to do with "deserving". Of course rich people generally don't deserve it -- who's to say that (for instance) Paris Hilton deserves more that money than lots of poor people?

    It has to do with reality and the alternatives.

    And if we take your reasoning to its logical conclusion - - why do you "deserve" a better life than millions of people in Africa? Just because you were born in the US (or any other wealthy country)? Or your logic ends at your country's borders? Why? The same luck that made Paris Hilton be born rich made you be born in the US. No difference whatsoever.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    fuck all this shit entjs and intjs unite! the future lies in the mental internet!

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    I hope I will never live to see a mental internet.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    About ISTJs, they are strange in some ways, they want to be free to pursue pleasure, yet they aslo want to follow orders and things. I am not sure how they balance these things.
    Interesting viewpoint. I don't agree ISTj = anarchy. Quite the opposite. But I don't see ISTjs as "slaves of the system" either. Let me explain how I see it...

    Perhaps ISTjs support a structured and well ordered society because it is easier for them to work in that kind of environment (Strong , PoLR). In total anarchy they are helpless and drift with the wind. But let's not forget they are hardcore aggressors so they are not really subordinated by the system. If the system's goals and their own goals are in conflict they are likely to rebel against the system (which can be seen as anarchistic behavior). But the purpose of the rebellion is not to move society to anarchy but to try and impose a new system which suits themselves and their goals better. So they are not really "slaves of the system" as often misunderstood. They are more likely trying to make the system a slave of them if you like. They will never subordinate to a system they find conflicting with their goals. So they see the system as a tool that helps to achieve their objectives. They don't necessarily have to be the boss in that system but they want the system to follow a set of rules they see as beneficial or they will openly rebel. A direct consequence of this is the (unfair) fact that ISTjs are generally more critical of other people breaking the rules than themselves breaking the rules. They want to force other people to play their game but not the other way around.

    Also I think there are differences between ISTjs. Each INTj can be seen as an isolated island as smilingeyes put it. They build their own structured conceptual world and live according to it. ISTjs too may have their very own and unique set of ethics, their own "world". But because ISTjs work with a more concrete set of data and usually have more materialistic goals than INTjs they are not outwardly as individualistic as INTjs. They may still have a set of ethics very different of other ISTjs.

    Can you or others see any critical flaws in this approach?

    Edit: shortened a bit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I hope I will never live to see a mental internet.
    Lol. Poor Expat. You might be imposed with an idea generated in an ISFp mind I'm not sure I quite get the mental internet concept but I assume this could happen in it.

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    XoX,

    I think your analysis of ISTjs is good. I agree with it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Can you or others see any critical flaws in this approach?

    Edit: shortened a bit
    Nothing. Except that an ISTj would never write it.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by soggy-flakes
    On political ideology tests, I either score moderate or slightly left. I am definitely on the left side on personal issues. On economic issues, I'm moderate, but I tend more to the left side I think.

    I wouldn't like or want communism but I would like to see some of the gross inequalities on the US economy minimized. I would like to see an upper limit as to the salary people can make. Why do celebrities and sports figures need to make multi-millions a year? I think the upper limit should be one million. Have the rest of the money go towards building a universal health care system or something like that or increase the amount of pay that the working class receives. Just because some one is poor, doesn't mean that they should have to physically suffer because they don't have the insurance or can't afford some sort of treatment. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you deserve to life a healthier or longer life IMO.
    You are not moderate or slightly left on economic issues then. Being in favor of income caps, and wealth redistribution is faaaaaar to the left in American politics. That sounds like a cross between socialism and communism to me.
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Can you or others see any critical flaws in this approach?

    Edit: shortened a bit
    Nothing. Except that an ISTj would never write it.
    I thought about that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    I think that anarchy is ISTJ.
    Hell no! I guess you've never been to Germany?? :wink:
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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