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Thread: Plus and Minus values... does it really play out that way?

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    Default Plus and Minus values... does it really play out that way?

    I may be looking at this prematurely, given how my grasp of the information elements is still flawed. However, there is something I would like to double-check. Evidently, the nature of individual elements between quadra is substantially different, such that the Alpha quadra prioritizes - while the Beta quadra prioritizes +. (Quick explanation of the difference is that - seeks to minimize unpleasant or unhealthy emotions while + attempts to maximize joyous ones.)

    Given my (albeit naive) suspicion that I belonged to the Alpha block, this surprises me. Before I attempt to pivot from one Quadra to the other, I thought it best to clarify: Has anyone found their own experience within a quadra to provide different +/- values than are listed for that quadra?

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    have you tried these?

    Quote Originally Posted by king
    +Ni is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable predictions) for quantity (predicting further into the future), and -Ni the reverse.
    +Ne is willing to sacrifice quality (knowing something's actual potential) for quantity (knowing all the possible things something could be).
    +Fi is willing to sacrifice quality (close, trustworthy relations) for quantity (extending a hand of friendship to everyone), -Fi the reverse.
    +Fe is willing to sacrifice quality (happiness) for quantity (emotional intensity), -Fe the reverse.
    +Si is willing to sacrifice quality (reliability of pleasurable results) for quantity (intensity of pleasurable results), -Si the reverse.
    +Se is willing to sacrifice quality (reliable strength) for quantity (lots of wealth), -Se the reverse.
    +Ti is willing to sacrifice quality (logical correctness) for quantity (subjecting everything to order and organization), -Ti the reverse.
    +Te is willing to sacrifice quality (efficiency of action) for quantity (productivity of action), -Te the reverse.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Quadra-Values?
    According to this:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko

    Mine is accurate. In trying to understand my own...I pretty much come to psychologically distance terrible relations, I mean ones at the farthest end of the spectrum. However there are very few that get thrown in that category as there are several levels of relations that exist. The other thing is that I cling to good ones like a child...in an infantile way.

    However my sister is ESE and so are a lot of my friends as they are Illusions of duality to me...so I'm trying to see or understand how your statement in the OP fits with reality


    Hum...I'm still trying hard to understand what you mean...are you saying that you do try to maximize joyous atmospheres?

    In accordance to my observations, ESE have no trouble in joining a joyous occasion, however they do things, say some strange and adverse or unfitting things in the wrong occasions to kind of not uplift the joyous situation. Take my sister's (ESE) birthday party. Ok, maybe because she was drunk IDK she suddenly recollected a very sad experience in her life and started to have this emotional drama over it, just when we where supposed to celebrate. I was rolling my eyes, my cousin (LSE) was telling me that she was emotional and needed to express that. So, I can see how the description relates in a broader sense, I mean in a non theoretical sense, as sort of a typical tendency. Typically, yes it works. But, even typically, most often I see ESE taking part of the merriment. But then, so do I.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 02-03-2014 at 06:10 AM.

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    Maritsa, your ESE sister is actually doing the opposite of what I was talking about, sacrificing happiness for intensity when the post I found implied they would do the reverse. Ultimately, though, that just goes to show what a case-by-case basis this can be. Thank you.

    Looking at it in terms of what a type would sacrifice to have more of the other makes the whole thing a lot more sensible. I'm slowly getting a better grasp on the information elements. Maybe soon I'll start to make progress on typing.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InAFishbowl View Post
    Maritsa, your ESE sister is actually doing the opposite of what I was talking about, sacrificing happiness for intensity when the post I found implied they would do the reverse. Ultimately, though, that just goes to show what a case-by-case basis this can be. Thank you.

    Looking at it in terms of what a type would sacrifice to have more of the other makes the whole thing a lot more sensible. I'm slowly getting a better grasp on the information elements. Maybe soon I'll start to make progress on typing.
    yeah, in general for her own self, as she seeks out everything that is pleasurable to her own senses, when often she's not in company, she's doing just that...she's maximizing her happiness, by getting herself the shoes and clothes she wants, by eating out whatever foods she likes, by having sex with the most pleasurable person, and ignoring getting some yummy things for me.

    Get this...this is a good story...every time she goes to target which is quite often she will get herself whatever she wants, but she's too lazy and doesn't bother telling me she's at target and what I may want. She actually goes out during the day (she's a stay at home mom). But, every time I go to target, she'll give me a list of essential things she missed to get (never fails). Does she call me to tell me she's out and if I may need something (nope). Never...it's all for herself She won't do things that are a bother or not feel good.

    But, if you want to type a person by this pattern, how would you know or can tell unless you're in close relations with the person and interpreting their actions correctly?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 02-03-2014 at 07:37 AM.

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    +/- assignments is still an open topic in Russian socionics community. Gulenko's distribution and interpretation of these signs that extends them to all types sharing the same quadra is only one potential version that has received some criticisms that it doesn't quite fit rl observations. Some argue that duals must have opposite sign assignments because it is opposite sign +/- combinations that would attract while same sign combinations -/- and +/+ would repel - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post988325 If you're just starting learning about information elements I wouldn't recommend starting with the sign assignments. It's an advanced topic.

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    the implications of gulenko's views on +/-' influence on quadra values are extremely subtle. alphas and betas (for example) obviously have reasons to not get along, the question is what you attribute it to. normally one says it is because of different Ne/Si vs. Ni/Se values. gulenko's +/- views imply you can attribute it to the J/P axis mismatch as well.

    so now you have two options instead of one. lesson learned is mainly that you shouldn't obsess much over function-based explanations and look at the quadras and types in isolation instead. because function-wise you can blame anything you want. the function-based explanation is largely rendered irrelevant by its relativity.

    it ties in with some views i have on functions being harder to "see" than types proper. in the context of those views, this theory is useful. consistent with it.

    of course you can take one side or the other and declare one values theory better than the other, but no one is going to be able to make any sort of strong argument as to which wins out. which makes my point. the explanations are relative and irrelevant. the conflict and synergy are inherent to the types and quadras themselves, not the "functions" and "axes" they "consist of".

    ...

    now i have to go back a little on what i said. there is just one respect in which this theory is interesting.

    take a pairing like INTJ and INFP. are these types that are synergetic due to their dualizing J functions, like "duals", or are they types that share a similarity on the intuitive plane, more like "identicals". the values theories contradict one another on that front.

    in every day life, i have to say the second makes quite a bit of sense. though i wouldn't say the Ti/Fe thing is a source of conflict.

    ...

    again, neither i'd say explains my experiences much on its own. i suppose my point is made another time. they are both true, both relative and both irrelevant. the types themselves tell you all you want about the relationship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    every time she goes to target which is quite often she will get herself whatever she wants, but she's too lazy and doesn't bother telling me she's at target and what I may want. She actually goes out during the day (she's a stay at home mom). But, every time I go to target, she'll give me a list of essential things she missed to get (never fails). Does she call me to tell me she's out and if I may need something (nope). Never...it's all for herself She won't do things that are a bother or not feel good.
    Oh my gosh, my SEE friend does that to her sister (and me, sometimes.) We are suckers, though and just keep helping her out. I make myself feel better that if I were drowning in a riptide, she would jump right in and get me out (ex-lifeguard.)
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
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    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    Oh my gosh, my SEE friend does that to her sister (and me, sometimes.) We are suckers, though and just keep helping her out. I make myself feel better that if I were drowning in a riptide, she would jump right in and get me out (ex-lifeguard.)
    I know SEE who do that too, but it's usually because they forgot to ask not because they were simply pursuing something that felt good to them. After all, SEE are still Fi (ethics of relations) valuing. Nevertheless, it can be mistaken for ESE's actions hence why they are so seemingly and superficially alike to cross conflict relations and easily confused when mate selections are made.

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    This is what I think:

    Words are metaphors for idea's. You conceptualize and give structure to the chaotic and wild imagination inside your own head. Good is this, bad is that. The +/- assignments are a way to further break down the idea of each function. The important thing here is that there is a break. This and that. Now, I think the way we see the +/- relative to our functions is understood when we make sense of them. D'uh right? But, the act of dividing them is a way to structuralize that the individual element acts differently because its paired with something else(Si+Fe/Ni+Fe, the Fe manifests differently). What the +/- mean, minimize negative/maximize positive is just a way to categorize them as different. Whether or not they are accurate, is our choice or our understanding. The important thing is that because of this, there is a difference between the function(Fe) between quadra's.

    I make sense of it because I relay what I've observed with the systems definitions and synthesize. I make it true. Just like Aristocratic and Democratic mean something different within Socionics than they do outside of it. All that matters is that there is a distinction, a divide in the structure to remember that they're different.

    With that said, I've asked whats in Krigs quote with ESI and EII family members, and the two pretty much agreed with Fi+Ne- and Fi-Se+. That could be a bias in how I presented the question, but in essence I think there is a good sum of truth in the delineation that Krig made.

    Granted if you, an Alpha SF, feels Fe- is surprising, it might be due to a Fe subtype. As an SEI/ESE with Fe subtype will appear a little bit like a mix of SEI/IEI or ESE/EIE respectively. Since more emphasis is placed on Fe, the Super-ego function that gets stronger is going to be Ni instead of Te due to Ni being used just a little bit more than the Archtype of an Alpha SF does when there's no subtype, or a Si subtype. If that doesn't make sense, I can try to clarify later.

    Personally, the Ni-Fe+ works for me. I try to incite positive reactions, though I respect that negative emotions have their place. The higher the rise, the farther the drop. And Ni- works because I am constantly aware of how something might turn bad, and I seek to avoid the repercussions of those consequences by avoiding the behavior. Thus, it's typical of my type to shirk blame/duty/scapegoat etc... because they don't want to deal with consequences of our actions when we do stupid, selfish shit. We're essentially a bunch of spineless pussies until we get our act together and grow as people. Thanks mom.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
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    It's "positive" and "negative," asshat.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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