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    Default Funny Ne video



    I relate to most of that.

    Before y'all jumps down my throat with ADHD being NTR, the way it's presented here could well be TR.
    Last edited by xerx; 01-26-2014 at 04:27 AM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    I don't think Ne has anything to do with attention span or forgetfulness, nor do I think the actors are ENFP. Honestly, the female strikes me as SLE.

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    She's SEE

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    If this is what an SXE is like, then you're doing it wrong.

    Under absolutely no circumstance is that woman any kind of sensor. Even Jung's description of Se (let alone Socionic's) has, as its kernel, the full sensory awareness of, if not absolute mastery over, one's physical environment. Prime logistical capabilities are strongly implied in all ST profiles, moreover.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    During the course of the past two days I

    - searched frantically for my phone, only to realize that I left it in my car, which was at the mechanics (who was going to call me when it is finished)
    - searched frantically for my keys (have not found them yet)
    - killed my steam cleaner because I was incapable of reading the manual carefully (reading manuals makes my brain twitch)
    - stabbed myself in the foot with scissors while trying to fix said steam cleaner (don't ask)
    - got up three times during the course of two minutes because I forgot yet another thing
    - forgot at least three times why I went to a different room. Twice it occurred to me later, but I still wonder why I went into the basement
    - moved the deadline of a big project because I could not keep up
    - started a new big project roughly three hours later
    - started two emails that I still have to finish
    - opened and closed the book chapter I absolutely have to read roughly 10 times (read a total of 2 paragraphs)

    So this video made me both laugh and cry a little...
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    I don't think Ne has anything to do with attention span or forgetfulness, nor do I think the actors are ENFP. Honestly, the female strikes me as SLE.
    Dude she looks interpretive/soft/intutive that is easily visible, a SLE wouldn´t even look close to that. except the / part which was correct on your side.

    snapshot20140126051752.jpg
    snapshot20140126051808.jpg

    take a look at her chin for example, besides that her complete body is that way even the way she walks

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    She's SEE
    Dual

    18953725.jpg
    Last edited by Zero11; 01-26-2014 at 04:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    If this is what an SXE is like, then you're doing it wrong.

    Under absolutely no circumstance is that woman any kind of sensor. Even Jung's description of Se (let alone Socionic's) has, as its kernel, the full sensory awareness of, if not absolute mastery over, one's physical environment. Prime logistical capabilities are strongly implied in all ST profiles, moreover.
    1. This video is made-up. Who knows if this nameless actress is actually prone to forgetfulness.
    2. An Se-ego is really just a person whose brain perceives and processes the "explicit static" properties of various "objects". But in case you disagree with my definitions, even the sociotype.com description of Se-leading disagrees with you:
    The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. He or she likes obedience and even subservience in others, since it allows him to "make things happen" more effectively. He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals.He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him. However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role. He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.- See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i....3EJpjNPj.dpuf

    3. Here is the definition of "logistics":
    Logistics is the management of the flow of resources between the point of origin and the point of consumption in order to meet some requirements, for example, of customers or corporations. The resources managed in logistics can include physical items, such as food, materials, equipment, liquids, and staff, as well as abstract items, such as time, information, particles, and energy. The logistics of physical items usually involves the integration of information flow, material handling, production, packaging, inventory,transportation, warehousing, and often security. The complexity of logistics can be modeled, analyzed, visualized, and optimized by dedicated simulation software. The minimization of the use of resources is a common motivation in logistics for import and export.


    Given this definition, can we really say that an ST with "prime logistical capabilities" is immune to forgetfulness?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    But in case you disagree with my definitions, even the sociotype.com description of Se-leading disagrees with you:
    Thats an Enneagram 8 description, didn´t you know that Socionics is flawed?

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    Furthermore, VI.

    Here is a still picture of the woman from the video:


    Here are some Filatova portraits of SLE that I think look similar:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero11 View Post
    Thats an Enneagram 8 description, didn´t you know that Socionics is flawed?
    lol socionics isn't flawed, people just don't understand it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    lol socionics isn't flawed, people just don't understand it
    That would make it just some Categorisation with very limited application in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    Furthermore, VI.

    Here are some Filatova portraits of SLE that I think look similar:
    How many of them are really SLE and not just some further Socionics nutjobs based on theoretical assumptions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    She's SEE
    No, these people are SEE:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero11 View Post
    That would make it just some Categorisation with very limited application in reality.
    A person's type defines his or her entire reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zero11 View Post
    How many of them are really SLE and not just some further Socionics nutjobs based on theoretical assumptions?
    I believe them to be SLE. You can take it or leave it, though.

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    What? Even sensing people misplace their shit and forget what they're doing as they walk into a new room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    I believe them to be SLE. You can take it or leave it, though.
    It´s not my intention to bend your view, eihter you realize it or you don´t and others will. Now that it is written on the Internetz it is accessible for everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    1. This video is made-up. Who knows if this nameless actress is actually prone to forgetfulness.
    Who the actress is, is irrelevant to the OP, which was directly referring to her role in that vid (though I'm convinced she is intuitive).

    2. An Se-ego is really just a person whose brain perceives and processes the "explicit static" properties of various "objects". But in case you disagree with my definitions, even the sociotype.com description of Se-leading disagrees with you:
    What's the relevance of "explicit static" to what you just quoted? The quote doesn't touch on static anywhere, nor "explicit" ( I assume you mean external ).

    And that's a stupid definition of Se.

    3. Here is the definition of "logistics":

    Given this definition, can we really say that an ST with "prime logistical capabilities" is immune to forgetfulness?
    Everyone is prone to one or another aspect of the traits mentioned in the video. A function is better modeled as a cluster of traits. The video addressed more than just forgetfulness.

    I'm not sure why you're bringing up some corporate definition of logistics, when the word is being used to refer to the management of the apparatus of day-to-day survival on a personal level.

    ... VI ...
    They don't look anything alike.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    I don't think Ne has anything to do with attention span or forgetfulness,
    I lose my car keys at least once a day. They are found in the weirdest places. Like the fridge or under the couch. I just give a pouty face until someone finds them for me.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Who the actress is, is irrelevant to the OP, which was directly referring to her role in that vid (though I'm convinced she is intuitive).
    She's a sensor, sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    What's the relationship between "explicit static" and what you just quoted? The quote doesn't touch on static anywhere, nor "explicit" ( I assume you mean external ).
    "Explicit Object Statics" are properties like "weight, height, color, texture, pitch". "External" is the word other people use, but I think "explicit" makes more sense. How can we perceive something that is "internal"? We can perceive something as being "implicit", though.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    And that's a stupid definition of Se.
    I agree, hence why I define "Se" as "Explicit Object Statics".


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Everyone is prone to one or another aspect of the traits mentioned in the video. A function is better modeled as a cluster of traits. The video addressed more than just forgetfulness.
    A "function" is a neural network that processes information. A "set" of "functions" constitutes a "type", but "type" does not solely determine "behavior". "Behavior" is the result of all of the brain's operations.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I'm not sure why you're bringing up some corporate definition of logistics, when the word is being used to refer to the management of the apparatus of day-to-day survival on a personal level.
    What does "logistics" mean in the context of management of day-to-day affairs, then?


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    They don't look anything alike.
    They look plenty alike, you're just being stubborn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    She's a sensor, sorry.

    "Explicit Object Statics" are properties like "weight, height, color, texture, pitch". "External" is the word other people use, but I think "explicit" makes more sense. How can we perceive something that is "internal"? We can perceive something as being "implicit", though.

    I agree, hence why I define "Se" as "Explicit Object Statics".

    Right, those properties work together to form a complete and confident perception of the physical world, as in the exact opposite of the chick in that video.


    A "function" is a neural network that processes information. A "set" of "functions" constitutes a "type", but "type" does not solely determine "behavior". "Behavior" is the result of all of the brain's operations.
    I'd avoid making comparisons with real sciences (i.e. "neural networks") if you don't want to sound stupid.


    What does "logistics" mean in the context of management of day-to-day affairs, then?
    It means managing the amenities for survival, taking care to make sure that the smallest details are in order and properly organized. It means having a strong measure of pragmatism (hence the "pragmatists" club) and practicality, regardless of IQ or education.


    They look plenty alike, you're just being stubborn.
    They look nothing alike, you're the one being stubborn. The SLEs look solid, confident, in charge and in control, both over themselves and their surroundings. She looks like a wilted flower stuck in lala land.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    When is Socionics just going to shut its doors and turn off the lights? None of you can type anybody. Nobody use VI anymore. This is all shit.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
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    Socionics -
    the16types.info

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Right, those properties work together to form a complete and confident perception of the physical world, as in the exact opposite of the chick in that video.
    No, it just means that an Se-ego will notice those things instead of noticing other things.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I'd avoid making correlations with real sciences (i.e. "neural networks") if you don't want to sound stupid.
    "Socionics" and "information processing" are both concerned at least in part with "cognition", and "cognition" happens in the "brain". Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry for "Brain":
    Information processing

    The invention of electronic computers in the 1940s, along with the development of mathematical information theory, led to a realization that brains can potentially be understood as information processing systems. This concept formed the basis of the field of cybernetics, and eventually gave rise to the field now known as computational neuroscience.[74] The earliest attempts at cybernetics were somewhat crude in that they treated the brain as essentially a digital computer in disguise, as for example in John von Neumann's 1958 book,The Computer and the Brain.[75] Over the years, though, accumulating information about the electrical responses of brain cells recorded from behaving animals has steadily moved theoretical concepts in the direction of increasing realism.[74]

    Model of a neural circuit in thecerebellum, as proposed by James S. Albus

    The essence of the information processing approach is to try to understand brain function in terms of information flow and implementation of algorithms.[74] One of the most influential early contributions was a 1959 paper titled What the frog's eye tells the frog's brain: the paper examined the visual responses of neurons in the retina and optic tectum of frogs, and came to the conclusion that some neurons in the tectum of the frog are wired to combine elementary responses in a way that makes them function as "bug perceivers".[76] A few years later David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel discovered cells in the primary visual cortex of monkeys that become active when sharp edges move across specific points in the field of view—a discovery for which they won a Nobel Prize.[77] Follow-up studies in higher-order visual areas found cells that detect binocular disparity, color, movement, and aspects of shape, with areas located at increasing distances from the primary visual cortex showing increasingly complex responses.[78] Other investigations of brain areas unrelated to vision have revealed cells with a wide variety of response correlates, some related to memory, some to abstract types of cognition such as space.[79]
    Theorists have worked to understand these response patterns by constructing mathematical models of neurons and neural networks, which can be simulated using computers.[74] Some useful models are abstract, focusing on the conceptual structure of neural algorithms rather than the details of how they are implemented in the brain; other models attempt to incorporate data about the biophysical properties of real neurons.[80] No model on any level is yet considered to be a fully valid description of brain function, though. The essential difficulty is that sophisticated computation by neural networks requires distributed processing in which hundreds or thousands of neurons work cooperatively—current methods of brain activity recording are only capable of isolating action potentials from a few dozen neurons at a time.[81]
    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    It means managing the amenities for survival, taking care to make sure that the smallest details are in order and properly organized. It means having a strong sense of pragmatism (hence the "pragmatists" club) and practicality, regardless of IQ or education.
    Right, but it doesn't necessarily mean "not being forgetful".


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    They look nothing alike, you're the one being stubborn. The SLEs look solid, confident, in charge and in control, both over themselves and their surroundings. She looks like a wilted flower stuck in lala land.
    "Looks like a wilted flower stuck in lala land" doesn't tell me jack crap about her physical appearance. I'm talking about something like "facial biometrics" here, while you're talking about "vague metaphors".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    When is Socionics just going to shut its doors and turn off the lights? None of you can type anybody. Nobody use VI anymore. This is all shit.
    read my posts. read Filatova's type descriptions and relation descriptions. read Gulenko. there is truth to all of this, it is just something you need to see for yourself. I can't teach you how to type, only you can figure it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    No, it just means that an Se-ego will notice those things instead of noticing other things.
    Yeah... and those things were derived from the core definition of Se as having a strong physical component.


    Cognition

    First of all, Neural networks are simplified models of neurons and very primitive models of cognition.

    Neural networks need to be trained -- through thousands of iterations -- to recognize predefined patterns set by the experimenters. They start out as a tabula rasa and have to learn everything from scratch. Jungian functions are filled out (with room for personal growth) from the get go.


    Right, but it doesn't necessarily mean "not being forgetful".
    I never said it was. You're the one focusing on it in a moronic attempt to nitpick.

    In addition to forgetfulness, the video touched on flightyness, flakyness, hyperactivity without purpose, inability to concentrate, inability to follow through, and so on. Traits, TAKEN TOGETHER, one could associate with an EP temperament, but not with the pragmatist's club.



    "Looks like a wilted flower stuck in lala land" doesn't tell me jack crap about her physical appearance. I'm talking about something like "facial biometrics" here, while you're talking about "vague metaphors".
    Uh, no. VI is not some modern day phrenology.
    Last edited by xerx; 01-26-2014 at 07:14 AM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Yeah... and those things were derived from the core definition of Se as having a strong physical component.
    Every "extroverted" function has a "strong physical component" because they all "perceive and process" information of an "explicit" nature.
    Here is the definition of "explicit":
    1 a*:*fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication
    And here, for "implicit":
    1 a*:*capable of being understood from something else though unexpressed
    So basically, "explicit" information originates from the "environment". It is what we immediately detect via our sensory organs. It requires no further thought or contemplation; it is "just there". "Implicit" information originates from an "operation" in the brain. It is the result of a "calculation" or a "transformation" that the function performs. It then seems reasonable to think that a person with an "explicit" primary function would seem to be "more focused on their environment" than a person with an "implicit" primary function, who would seem to be "more focused on their thought processes", and thus we have the concepts of "extroversion" and "introversion".


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    First of all, Neural networks are simplified models of neurons and very primitive models of cognition.
    The problem isn't that neural networks can't model cognition, the problem is we don't currently have the capacity to accurately model cognition, whatever "capacity to model" may entail. Anytime you see quotation marks from me, they basically mean "whatever this concept may entail".


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Neural networks need to be trained -- through thousands of iterations -- to recognize predefined patterns set by the experimenters. They start out as a tabula rasa and have to learn everything from scratch. Jungian functions are filled out (with room for personal growth) from the get go.
    Father Time and Mother Nature wrote our algorithms. As a matter of fact, we're still a work in progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I never said it was. You're the one focusing on it in a moronic attempt to nitpick.

    In addition to forgetfulness, the video touched on flightyness, flakyness, hyperactivity without purpose, inability to concentrate, inability to follow through, and so on. Traits, TAKEN TOGETHER, one could associate with an EP temperament, but not with the pragmatist's club.
    Clubs r dum


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Uh, no. VI is about how type characteristics seep through formal appearances- it's a highly subjective way of typing. It's not about facial features. It's not some modern day phrenology.
    It isn't about "how type characteristics seep through formal appearances", it is about "what specific bodily and/or behavioral characteristics correlate with a given type". When you say "type characteristics" you mean "type-specific behavioral and/or emotional characteristic", and when you say "seep through" you mean "are made manifest in". So basically, I could have an "angry chin" or a "rational earlobe" or an "irrational gait". You're classifying persons based on emotions that you personally associate with their physical characteristics. If by "phrenology" you mean "quack science", then I think we have a pretty good candidate for it in the form of "your conception of VI".
    Last edited by Olduvai; 01-26-2014 at 08:18 AM.

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    "A new study challenges the popular idea that dysfunction in dopamine — a chemical that controls the brain’s reward and pleasure centers — is the main cause of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The U.K. researchers suggest instead that the primary cause of ADHD is found in structural differences in the brain’s grey matter."



     
    Chemical Imbalance Is Probably Not Behind ADHD

    Traci Pedersen
    By Associate News Editor
    Reviewed by John M. Grohol, Psy.D. on November 2, 2013


    Chemical Imbalance Is Probably Not Behind ADHDA new study challenges the popular idea that dysfunction in dopamine — a chemical that controls the brain’s reward and pleasure centers — is the main cause of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The U.K. researchers suggest instead that the primary cause of ADHD is found in structural differences in the brain’s grey matter.


    Dopamine is a chemical produced in the brain that is necessary for concentration or prolonged attention, working memory and motivation. It helps carry signals between brain cells by attaching to dopamine cell receptors — special entry-points in cell membranes that can only be opened by that particular molecule.


    Ritalin, one of the more popular medications approved to treat ADHD, raises levels of dopamine, causing more to bind to the cells and therefore increasing the communication between them.


    “These findings question the previously accepted view that major abnormalities in dopamine function are the main cause of ADHD in adult patients.


    “While the results show that Ritalin has a ‘therapeutic’ effect to improve performance, it does not appear to be related to fundamental underlying impairments in the dopamine system in ADHD,” said co-author Trevor Robbins, Ph.D., director of the MRC Centre for Behavioural and Clinical Neuroscience Institute.


    During the study, researchers used a combination of positron emission tomography (PET) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to measure grey matter and dopamine receptors and determine how the drug methylphenidate (Ritalin) affected dopamine in individuals with ADHD and those without.


    Both study groups were given either a dose of Ritalin or a placebo. The study was double-blinded, which means neither the participants nor the clinicians who administered the medication knew whether they were working with Ritalin or the placebo.


    Before and after taking their given dose, participants were tested on their ability to concentrate and pay attention over a period of time.


    The researchers discovered that both the ADHD patients and the controls who were given Ritalin showed similar increases of dopamine in their brain, as well as similar levels of improvement in attention and concentration.


    The findings also showed that although participants with ADHD had significantly less grey matter in the brain, and performed much worse in the attention tests than the healthy controls, they had similar levels of dopamine receptors in an area of the brain called the striatum. Ritalin raised dopamine levels in this area to the same degree.


    This important finding suggests there was not necessarily any dysfunction in dopamine.


    The researchers found it interesting that Ritalin also increased sustained performance in some of the healthy controls, suggesting that the overall ability of the drug to increase attention in both ADHD and healthy controls was related to the rise in dopamine it caused in the striatum.


    Study leader Barbara Sahakian, Ph.D., said the findings are significant because they show Ritalin improves attention and concentration regardless of whether people have ADHD or not.


    “These new findings demonstrate that poor performers, including healthy volunteers, were helped by the treatment, and this improvement was related to increases in dopamine in the brain,” she said.


    The researchers hope these results will improve our understanding of the cause of ADHD and improve future treatments.


    Source: University of Cambridge


    APA Reference
    Pedersen, T. (2013). Chemical Imbalance Is Probably Not Behind ADHD. Psych Central. Retrieved on January 26, 2014, from http://psychcentral.com/news/2013/11...dhd/61512.html


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    "A new study challenges the popular idea that dysfunction in dopamine — a chemical that controls the brain’s reward and pleasure centers — is the main cause of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The U.K. researchers suggest instead that the primary cause of ADHD is found in structural differences in the brain’s grey matter."


    dayum gurl u good

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    dayum gurl u good
    I have a lot of experience with "mental health".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I have a lot of experience with "mental health".
    "Whatever that may entail..."

    I'm thinking rubber rooms and straight jackets. And Hannibal Lecter-style insanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    "Whatever that may entail..."

    I'm thinking rubber rooms and straight jackets. And Hannibal Lecter-style insanity.


    I have studied it since my early teens because I wanted to know what makes people the way they are.

    * A good book to read for anyone interested is "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post


    I have studied it since my early teens because I wanted to know what makes people the way they are.

    * A good book to read for anyone interested is "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat".
    "Abnormal 'physical' or 'material' phenomena" -> "a man mistakes his wife for a hat"; "Normal 'physical' or 'material' phenomena" -> "a man is loving toward his wife"

    That book makes a great case against the idea that the "soul" bears any "humanlike characteristics". We can't associate any "personal qualities" with "souls" because "personal qualities" arise from "'physical' or 'material' phenomena" while "souls" remain "metaphysical" or "immaterial".

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    First of all, Neural networks are simplified models of neurons and very primitive models of cognition.
    Allow me to re-quote since you apparently didn't read the first quote:
    Theorists have worked to understand these response patterns by constructing mathematical models of neurons and neural networks, which can be simulated using computers.[74] Some useful models are abstract, focusing on the conceptual structure of neural algorithms rather than the details of how they are implemented in the brain; other models attempt to incorporate data about the biophysical properties of real neurons.[80] No model on any level is yet considered to be a fully valid description of brain function, though. The essential difficulty is that sophisticated computation by neural networks requires distributed processing in which hundreds or thousands of neurons work cooperatively—current methods of brain activity recording are only capable of isolating action potentials from a few dozen neurons at a time.

    So the problem isn't the idea of neural networks, the problem is our inability to model them.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Neural networks need to be trained -- through thousands of iterations -- to recognize predefined patterns set by the experimenters. They start out as a tabula rasa and have to learn everything from scratch. Jungian functions are filled out (with room for personal growth) from the get go.
    I just have to ask: did you pull this out of your ass?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    Every "extroverted" function has a "strong physical component" because they all "perceive and process" information of an "explicit" nature.
    Here is the definition of "explicit":

    And here, for "implicit":

    So basically, "explicit" information originates from the "environment". It is what we immediately detect via our sensory organs. It requires no further thought or contemplation; it is "just there". "Implicit" information originates from an "operation" in the brain. It is the result of a "calculation" or a "transformation" that the function performs. It then seems reasonable to think that a person with an "explicit" primary function would seem to be "more focused on their environment" than a person with an "implicit" primary function, who would seem to be "more focused on their thought processes", and thus we have the concepts of "extroversion" and "introversion".
    Even if this definition is true, that lady didn't look very focused on the environment. Quite the opposite.


    The problem isn't that neural networks can't model cognition, the problem is we don't currently have the capacity to accurately model cognition, whatever "capacity to model" may entail. Anytime you see quotation marks from me, they basically mean "whatever this concept may entail".

    Father Time and Mother Nature wrote our algorithms. As a matter of fact, we're still a work in progress.
    Neural networks are a poor facsimile of neurons, sorry.


    Clubs r dum
    Not really, no. They're pretty foundational. Anytime you say someone is a sensor and logical, your saying that he or she belongs to the ST club.


    It isn't about "how type characteristics seep through formal appearances", it is about "what specific bodily and/or behavioral characteristics correlate with a given type". When you say "type characteristics" you mean "type-specific behavioral and/or emotional characteristic", and when you say "seep through" you mean "are made manifest in". So basically, I could have an "angry chin" or a "rational earlobe" or an "irrational gait". You're classifying persons based on emotions that you personally associate with their physical characteristics. If by "phrenology" you mean "quack science", then I think we have a pretty good candidate for it in the form of "your conception of VI".
    lmao? no, VI has nothing to do with physical characteristics. It has to do with the way people carry themselves, subtle gestures, the look in their eyes and so on. It's something highly subjective. I don't endorse it one way or the other, in case you're thinking that.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    "A new study challenges the popular idea that dysfunction in dopamine — a chemical that controls the brain’s reward and pleasure centers — is the main cause of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The U.K. researchers suggest instead that the primary cause of ADHD is found in structural differences in the brain’s grey matter."
    Whatever this is getting at, I'm pretty sure they were using ADHD as a tongue-in-cheek metaphor. The info is interesting though.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    So the problem isn't the idea of neural networks, the problem is our inability to model them.

    I just have to ask: did you pull this out of your ass?
    ha ha, no. neural networks have to be trained to recognize patterns. they start off with a random distribution of values which are adjusted (corrected) until the target pattern gets "learned". It takes many training steps for a network to learn to recognize a pattern.

    jungian functions don't have to be "learned". they're inborn. you can learn to use them better via self-development, but they're not built from scratch.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Whatever this is getting at, I'm pretty sure they were using ADHD as a tongue-in-cheek metaphor. The info is interesting though.
    Yeah, I got that!

    I used it as an opportunity to slip in some info I find interesting on the subject. That's all.

    carpe diem...

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Even if this definition is true, that lady didn't look very focused on the environment. Quite the opposite.
    How?


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Neural networks are a poor facsimile of neurons, sorry.
    Yes, but neurons are organized naturally into "biological networks", and those are what I'm referring to.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Not really, no. They're pretty foundational. Anytime you say someone is a sensor and logical, your saying that he or she belongs to the ST club.
    But all that classification tells us is that this person uses logic and sensing. Te+Si processes information differently than Si+Te, and even more differently than Ti+Se or Se+Ti. Remember, these are all individual algorithms.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    lmao? no, VI has nothing to do with physical characteristics. It has to do with the way people carry themselves, subtle gestures, the look in their eyes and so on. It's something highly subjective. I don't endorse it one way or the other, in case you're thinking that.
    "the way people carry themselves", "subtle gestures", and "the look in their eyes" are all "dynamic physical characteristics", while the "facial biometrics" that I mentioned are "static physical characteristics". "VI" involves both "static" and "dynamic" physical characteristics.


    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    ha ha, no. neural networks have to be trained to recognize patterns. they start off with a random distribution of values which are adjusted (corrected) until the target pattern gets "learned". It takes many training steps for a network to learn to recognize a pattern.
    You're talking about "artificial neural networks", which are our second-rate approximations of the brain's own "biological neural networks". "Biological neural networks" are the networks I'm referring to. Here's some literature on the subject:
    2.2 Biological Neural Networks

    The neural system of the human body consists of three stages: receptors, a neural network, and effectors. The receptors receive the stimuli either internally or from the external world, then pass the information into the neurons in a form of electrical impulses. The neural network then processes the inputs then makes proper decision of outputs. Finally, the effectors translate electrical impulses from the neural network into responses to the outside environment. Figure 2.1 shows the bidirectional communication between stages for feedback [Arb87].



    The fundamental element of the neural network is called a neuron. As shown in figure 2.2, a neuron mainly consists of three parts: dendrites, soma, and axon. Dentrites are the tree-like structure that receives the signal from surrounding neurons, where each line is connected to one neuron. Axon is a thin cylinder that transmits the signal from one neuron to others. At the end of axon, the contact to the dendrites is made through a synapse. The inter-neuronal signal at the synapse is usually chemical diffusion but sometimes electrical impulses. A neuron fires an electrical impulse only if certain condition is met [Zur92].
    The incoming impulse signal from each synapse to the neuron is either excitatory or inhibitory, which means helping or hindering firing. The condition of causing firing is that the excitatory signal should exceed the inhibitory signal by a certain amount in a short period of time, called the period of latent summation. As we assign a weight to each incoming impulse signal, the excitatory signal has positive weight and the inhibitory signal has negative weight. This way, we can say, ``A neuron fires only if the total weight of the synapses that receive impulses in the period of latent summation exceeds the threshold." [Arb87].
    Also:
    Biological Neurons

    The brain is principally composed of about 10 billion neurons, each connected to about 10,000 other neurons. Each of the yellow blobs in the picture above are neuronal cell bodies (soma), and the lines are the input and output channels (dendrites and axons) which connect them.
    Each neuron receives electrochemical inputs from other neurons at the dendrites. If the sum of these electrical inputs is sufficiently powerful to activate the neuron, it transmits an electrochemical signal along the axon, and passes this signal to the other neurons whose dendrites are attached at any of the axon terminals. These attached neurons may then fire.
    It is important to note that a neuron fires only if the total signal received at the cell body exceeds a certain level. The neuron either fires or it doesn't, there aren't different grades of firing.
    So, our entire brain is composed of these interconnected electro-chemical transmitting neurons. From a very large number of extremely simple processing units (each performing a weighted sum of its inputs, and then firing a binary signal if the total input exceeds a certain level) the brain manages to perform extremely complex tasks. This is the model on which artificial neural networks are based. Thus far, artificial neural networks haven't even come close to modeling the complexity of the brain, but they have shown to be good at problems which are easy for a human but difficult for a traditional computer, such as image recognition and predictions based on past knowledge.
    Again, the problem is not with the "idea" of "neural networks", the problem is with our "limited capacity" to model them.


    jungian functions don't have to be "learned". they're inborn. you can learn to use them better via self-development, but they're not built from scratch.
    Now we're talking!

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    Here's an interesting connection:
    The neural system of the human body consists of three stages: receptors, a neural network, and effectors. The receptors receive the stimuli either internally or from the external world, then pass the information into the neurons in a form of electrical impulses. The neural network then processes the inputs then makes proper decision of outputs. Finally, the effectors translate electrical impulses from the neural network into responses to the outside environment.

    +
    So basically, "explicit" information originates from the "environment". It is what we immediately detect via our sensory organs. It requires no further thought or contemplation; it is "just there". "Implicit" information originates from an "operation" in the brain. It is the result of a "calculation" or a "transformation" that the function performs. It then seems reasonable to think that a person with an "explicit" primary function would seem to be "more focused on their environment" than a person with an "implicit" primary function, who would seem to be "more focused on their thought processes", and thus we have the concepts of "extroversion" and "introversion".


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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    If this is what an SXE is like, then you're doing it wrong.

    Under absolutely no circumstance is that woman any kind of sensor. Even Jung's description of Se (let alone Socionic's) has, as its kernel, the full sensory awareness of, if not absolute mastery over, one's physical environment. Prime logistical capabilities are strongly implied in all ST profiles, moreover.
    *buzzer sounds*

    I award you no points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    *buzzer sounds*

    I award you no points.

    To anyone wondering what the difference is between Te and Fe: this post is pure Te.

    "Explicit Object Dynamics"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    How?
    Because she's the queen of being oblivious.



    Yes, but neurons are organized naturally into "biological networks", and those are what I'm referring to.

    You're talking about "artificial neural networks", which are our second-rate approximations of the brain's own "biological neural networks". "Biological neural networks" are the networks I'm referring to. Here's some literature on the subject:

    Again, the problem is not with the "idea" of "neural networks", the problem is with our "limited capacity" to model them.
    Then why did you bring up the analogy with computers ?


    But all that classification tells us is that this person uses logic and sensing. Te+Si processes information differently than Si+Te, and even more differently than Ti+Se or Se+Ti. Remember, these are all individual algorithms.
    I think you need to read up more. Augusta broke up the eight functions into smaller parts: Extroverted Sensing is external statics of objects. Introverted Sensing is external dynamics of fields. The two sensing functions share the external dichotomy. Ditto with logic.



    "the way people carry themselves", "subtle gestures", and "the look in their eyes" are all "dynamic physical characteristics", while the "facial biometrics" that I mentioned are "static physical characteristics". "VI" involves both "static" and "dynamic" physical characteristics.
    "Static traits" .. I think you mean facial characteristics.. run in families. They're inherited.

    Then again, to be fair, this is one [of a few] areas of Socionics where it's possible to conduct real scientific experiments.
    Last edited by xerx; 01-27-2014 at 06:31 AM.
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