Are there any decent SEE males in the world?

[Eldanen]

This thread is the SEE counterpart to the IEI thread in the Beta forum.

Many of the characteristics I've read from the OP seem to have easy analogies to another type in the Gamma quadra, the SEE. Most of the time, the SEEs I've known and befriended have been fair weather friends and shown over time that they didn't really take my time or friendship seriously. I've noticed a strong tendency for this type to ingratiate others if they feel there's something that will benefit them in the process. In addition, there's also the "I don't really like this person, but I'll do it for the money" aspect that I think most of the exemplars of this type share. Most of the ones I've known have been pretty great manipulators who would be glad to fake a friendship or relationship with you, laughing behind your back or even smirking to your face when they see you've fallen for some confidence trick of theirs. I've concluded that there aren't any decent SEEs in the world, male or female, but others are free to discuss or disagree with this statement.

[Narc]

@woofwoofl is pretty awesome! @dolphin too.

I think Dolphin is actually female.

[lemontrees]

Only have known SEE females, but I have to say that just from (very limited) experience they can be pretty loyal.

I also wonder if the semi-dual thing can instill this extra kind of distrust when you're ethical creatives (playing off of how ethicals can kind of distrust each other's brand of ethics to begin with.)

[Phantom Shadow]

I "love" how you generalize and stereotype condemning an entire group for the actions and choices of a few. And how you seek to pass judgment those who different from you, without first attempting to understanding there views, values or intentions . Its as if do not have the capacity to understand anyone who has opposing perspective.

[Scapegrace]

Oh for fucks sake.

[Iris]

The most interesting man in the world @Scapegrace. Is this your dual?

[woofwoofl]

Fairly certain this is about me. I'll try to be civil.

This thread is the SEE counterpart to the IEI thread in the Beta forum.

Doubtful. What Ankh went through was far, far more severe than me trying my best to make sensible responses to nonsensical PMs you sent my way.

Many of the characteristics I've read from the OP seem to have easy analogies to another type in the Gamma quadra, the SEE.

Hi there. Congratulations, you got my attention!

Most of the time, the SEEs I've known and befriended have been fair weather friends and shown over time that they didn't really take my time or friendship seriously.

I'm easy to find in the nights at http://tinychat.com/the17th and sometimes I'll throw a link in chat; when I do that, odds are I'll be in the room.

I've noticed a strong tendency for this type to ingratiate others if they feel there's something that will benefit them in the process. In addition, there's also the "I don't really like this person, but I'll do it for the money" aspect that I think most of the exemplars of this type share.

I like a hell of a lot of people in the world, and there's tons of admirable things about people that are a pain in the ass for me to deal with in a day-to-day manner. Being around anyone will benefit me in some way. Humanity's a rich place. My time, as I know it, is finite, at least in this body, so I'm gonna move it towards people who enjoy it and people who I enjoy. As far as money is concerned, most of my budget goes towards food, clothing, and musical equipment; the end objective of my purchases is to either do something good for the people within my range of influence, or to do something that'll make me live better; doing the second helps me do the first better. Despite a few indulgences on clothing, which I've reeled in greatly, I budget like a motherfucker and I make every last cent count for the best.

Most of the ones I've known have been pretty great manipulators who would be glad to fake a friendship or relationship with you, laughing behind your back or even smirking to your face when they see you've fallen for some confidence trick of theirs. I've concluded that there aren't any decent SEEs in the world, male or female, but others are free to discuss or disagree with this statement.

And with the absolute lack of any proper nouns or any other specifics, you brought forth to us all a slick, polished, melodramatic brick of text that feels as if it were deliberately designed to piss me off without offering anything remotely resembling a path to a solution to fix whatever the hell it is that you're displeased about. I spent most of my "day off" catching up on rest, cleaning a 20 pound turkey that spent the night in the oven, helping my mom out with a painting project in the home, recording music, mixing music on a half-decade old $200 shitbox of a laptop that has to restart after every time I run Ardour (this time only to find that I was inconsistent on the double-track, effectively fucking the entire session), responding to a fellow musician and ex-bandmate in regards to an hour of previously recorded material, cooking various foods, spending time in a TinyChat room that I linked to that you were more than welcome to show up in but you didn't, retuning my drumkit, doing other various things for people I care about, washing clothes after the turkey grease hit my shirt, reading Kurt Cobain's journals to help solidify a future post I have brewing about him being E5 and arranging a comprehensive and expansive post in my head, writing more music, modding new members in TinyChat the17th, making future plans over the course of the next few days and weeks, and I'm still probably leaving a hell of a lot out. This is the last time I ever waste my time on your bullshit.

[sarinana]

From my experience SEEs have been worse than IEIs. They like to sweeten things up and lie often. Also very materialistic and can be quite superficial. Extremely defensive of their private lives to the point of paranoia. One of them just bought tickets to Thailand thinking it is going to make her find a "spiritual path" But that's just the crazy ones I had a "privilege" to meet. Obviously there are decent ones out there, the problem is that the crazy people, or those who have wronged us out are more likely to get stuck in our memories than somebody who's behavior is ordinary. Something to think about...

[Eldanen]

Fairly certain this is about me. I'll try to be civil.



Doubtful. What Ankh went through was far, far more severe than me trying my best to make sensible responses to nonsensical PMs you sent my way.



Hi there. Congratulations, you got my attention!



I'm easy to find in the nights at http://tinychat.com/the17th and sometimes I'll throw a link in chat; when I do that, odds are I'll be in the room.



I like a hell of a lot of people in the world, and there's tons of admirable things about people that are a pain in the ass for me to deal with in a day-to-day manner. Being around anyone will benefit me in some way. Humanity's a rich place. My time, as I know it, is finite, at least in this body, so I'm gonna move it towards people who enjoy it and people who I enjoy. As far as money is concerned, most of my budget goes towards food, clothing, and musical equipment; the end objective of my purchases is to either do something good for the people within my range of influence, or to do something that'll make me live better; doing the second helps me do the first better. Despite a few indulgences on clothing, which I've reeled in greatly, I budget like a motherfucker and I make every last cent count for the best.



And with the absolute lack of any proper nouns or any other specifics, you brought forth to us all a slick, polished, melodramatic brick of text that feels as if it were deliberately designed to piss me off without offering anything remotely resembling a path to a solution to fix whatever the hell it is that you're displeased about. I spent most of my "day off" catching up on rest, cleaning a 20 pound turkey that spent the night in the oven, helping my mom out with a painting project in the home, recording music, mixing music on a half-decade old $200 shitbox of a laptop that has to restart after every time I run Ardour (this time only to find that I was inconsistent on the double-track, effectively fucking the entire session), responding to a fellow musician and ex-bandmate in regards to an hour of previously recorded material, cooking various foods, spending time in a TinyChat room that I linked to that you were more than welcome to show up in but you didn't, retuning my drumkit, doing other various things for people I care about, washing clothes after the turkey grease hit my shirt, reading Kurt Cobain's journals to help solidify a future post I have brewing about him being E5 and arranging a comprehensive and expansive post in my head, writing more music, modding new members in TinyChat the17th, making future plans over the course of the next few days and weeks, and I'm still probably leaving a hell of a lot out. This is the last time I ever waste my time on your bullshit.

This isn't all about you, really, woofl. I wouldn't make a thread seemingly condemning an entire type without a long history of experience with quite a few examples and negative experiences to draw from. I can't really show up in that chat at the moment. I don't have a computer or Internet access at home right now. Just a smart phone. And before you jump on that, I'm not blaming you for that.


I think the ultimate motivation for my posts like this is that I'm lonely, and ESFps have often treated me like we're best friends and then dropped me or gone off to who knows wherever they go. I wish they'd never been nice to me if they didn't intend on it being a continual behavior. Aside from that, there have been some who have been real dicks and manipulative. I've gotten better at spotting it over the years. Testing someone's reaction to a good dose of inordinate honesty seems to work well. Other types have been dicks of course, but Fi creatives often take the cake for false promises and buddy buddy behavior that isn't followed up on. I've known at least one other person who has taken issue with this kind of thing. I guess the essential point is, "Why act like a friend if you don't intend on being one?" If you don't have the time, it's not a problem. Just don't act like we're closer than we really are.

Fi creatives are often in addition one of the least capable types of plain old honesty, and instead smile and affirm when they really think something different. I'd rather have someone disagree with me up front, though still respectfully, than have someone who always lies to me just to preserve some positive feeling. In the end, it just creates an illusion that ends up shattering at some point.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons why people have criticized me for not opening up too quickly over the years. If I don't intend on being someone's friend for the rest of my life, there are certain things I'm not going to pretend, certain ways I'm not going to be nice, just to show that I'm not going to get attached to them, out of respect for their emotions. I don't open up to someone if I don't intend on staying that way for a long time.

You're right in saying that Ankh's example was worse. And my thread wasn't meant to cheapen hers. Dude needs to get bitch slapped or possibly run over by a MACK.

From my experience SEEs have been worse than IEIs. They like to sweeten things up and lie often. Also very materialistic and can be quite superficial. Extremely defensive of their private lives to the point of paranoia. One of them just bought tickets to Thailand thinking it is going to make her find a "spiritual path" But that's just the crazy ones I had a "privilege" to meet. Obviously there are decent ones out there, the problem is that the crazy people, or those who have wronged us out are more likely to get stuck in our memories than somebody who's behavior is ordinary. Something to think about...

You're absolutely right sarinana. I've thought about this before. Even people who have been somewhat good toward me often have their behavior overlooked compared to ones who have wronged me in some way. Glad I'm not crazy and not the only one this happens to.

In regard to the paranoia, I've noticed Gamma Ps often have snap reactions to perceived injuries to privacy which to me often seems unnecessary. That's their choice though. The funny adjunct to this is that they'll often publicly decry other people and name names at the same time. It's ironic.

[Amber]

Yes, SEEs can be pretty bad. A lot of sexual cheating, lies and somehow socially manipulation themselves into position again, leaving their victim both ruined from the experience and from the social embarrassement, that the SEE somehow manages to place on their victim. They are socially very manipulative, and will easily get on top if they need to.

I have a female SEE neighbor who harshly and publicly judged another friend for divorcing her sick husband, even if the relationship was over long time before the guy got sick, and the divorce was already planned. At the same time, she herself had sex with the childhood friend of her own husband. And when that got publicly known, she somehow made her (ex)husband look like the bad guy.

At the same time, I have a SEE-Fi E6 brother, who is a really, really good guy, though still a sex monster... (He talks to me about how he wants sex all the time, and asked me if there's any hope he can talk his ESI gf into either having more sex or let him have other partners. I said no, lol. And he doesn't cheat.) He's also very honest and hard working and pretty much the way the perfect guy is depicted in American teen movies. Hot, tough, sensitive, muscular, polite, gentleman, sporty, etc. Not my type of guy, but I'd hate to see him hurt. He's one of the good guys, for sure. Very protective, very emotionally involved, very caring.

I know another SEE-ESI relationship where the SEE is the exact same type as my brother, just sx/sp instead of sp/sx, and he's total scum. Steals his ESI gf money, so her kids are w/o real food for long, manipulates her into staying with him by building air castle promises and psychologically abusing her non stop. He cheats, lies and is a rotten person. I told the ESI to drop him, ofc, and now she comes to me to talk shit about him, but she hasn't left him, so imo she's partly responsible for what he does to her. I avoid her.

I guess the morality is that ethicals aren't necessarily ethical, but that some are good, and that we may make mistakes, but if you smell shit once, then leave. No more chances than one to prove you are not shit. And no time to waste on shit.

The moral is that a Fi or Fe ego doesn´t make you moral. However a firm set of notions about that is more likely to be found in Fi base.
as a creative (2nd) function (SEE and IEE)

The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function.
The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.

[Phantom Shadow]

OMFG...Stop with this victim bullsh*t. Stop acting like you don't have part in your relationships; YOU chose to engage in a relationship with said person, YOU chose to trust that person, YOU chose to be friends, YOU chose to get married, YOU chose to have kids, and YOU chose this person. "It takes two to tango"... there at least two sides to these stories. It may not be all your fault, but you played a role in it. Instead of sitting around casing blame; spend that time on reflecting on what you did wrong, how your going resolve the issue and how your going to prevent it from ever happening again.

[Amber]

OMFG...Stop with this victim bullsh*t. Stop acting like you don't have part in your relationships; YOU chose to engage in a relationship with said person, YOU chose to trust that person, YOU chose to be friends, YOU chose to get married, YOU chose to have kids, and YOU chose this person. "It takes two to tango"... there at least two sides to these stories. It may not be all your fault, but you played a role in it. Instead of sitting around casing blame; spend that time on reflecting on what you did wrong, how your going resolve the issue and how your going to prevent it from ever happening again.

^^^^^^ wtf is this, who is it addressed to and how come the same very wise ideas were not posted in the Beta or Alpha quadra in the discussions from a while ago

[InvisibleJim]

No, they are always indecently nekkid.

[DirectorAbbie]

I have an SEE uncle who's a very decent fellow. I also knew an SEE in high school who took friendships seriously, though he tended toward crude topics.

[chriscorey]

From my experience SEEs have been worse than IEIs. They like to sweeten things up and lie often. Also very materialistic and can be quite superficial. Extremely defensive of their private lives to the point of paranoia. One of them just bought tickets to Thailand thinking it is going to make her find a "spiritual path" But that's just the crazy ones I had a "privilege" to meet. Obviously there are decent ones out there, the problem is that the crazy people, or those who have wronged us out are more likely to get stuck in our memories than somebody who's behavior is ordinary. Something to think about...

I wonder why ...

[FDG]

I know some SEEs who are / seem to be extremely attracted to social prestige and easy money(*). Those, IME, tend to somehow behave like you describe, even though they will generally always try to at least emotionally support you if you have any kind of trouble. My impression is that they simply compute the expected monetary/social return to being your friend, and when this return plummets, they will consider their "time investment" not really worth it. If you start out being socially not that powerful, they might even openly scorn you / emotionally "kick" you saying you're worthless etc.
I know other SEEs who don't seem to have the above described values and they're...normal people, with their quirks, their ability to be the life of the party and great friends but also their tendency to waste money away, the tendency to be easily offended - which however normally makes them tactful etc.

(*) everybody is attracted to money and social prestige, but for some people they're primary life goals.

[Leader]

I agree with OP. SEE are the biggest hypocrites and scheme the most out of all the other types. The manipulate and are pretty much conman who will fake/lie in your face but talk shit behind your back.

But they're cool, they're friends...but more rivals than friends. But im still cool with them. With Fi and my Ti there is sometimes a disconnect, but we can relate on Se. I don't want to call them stupid, which they aren't..they can be dumb, but its more like they just memorize facts and knowledge that they hear from the people they interact with and don't really understand it, but try to come off like that know what they are talking about. I find that I have to keep conversation on the surface and not go into detail because they'll lose interest because they probably feel stupid or like im trying to one up them with my intellect. They guys are like friends/rivals...but I like the girls more because im a guy, im attracted to them. The girls, just like the guys are fancy on the surface, but seem empty on the inside...but I see the lack of real volition and am not phased by their manipulation or when they try to dominate me, and kind of am protective of them (its like their little girls who are are lost inside or something)...just like I am of all women of all type..They're nice, but at the same time I have to be cautious of them because they're usually scheming or something.

If it weren't for the scheming and manipulation that they do, which most people aren't even aware of and actually think the SEE is being friendly and end up liking them for it, I wouldn't have any problem with them. That's the only problem, other then that I like them.

[Iris]

The wikisocion description doesn't capture a lot of good SEE qualities or their vulnerabilities. I have a SEE friend who likes having dependable friendships just as much as any other type, and I see how sad she is when somebody drops her. She is a very giving and loyal person, but sometimes people get tired of the lack of depth in her conversation. She grew up in a family of high achievers and stuck out like a sore thumb because she was average in school, so that Ti polr is a very sore area. She has confided to me that smart people make her feel inferior. Employers love her because she is extremely hard working and punctual and is beautiful and has a lot of charisma. She throws really fun parties and is great at accepting people as they are - not a snob. In fact, she is the first to defend the underdog in many situations.

[Phantom Shadow]

I know some SEEs who are / seem to be extremely attracted to social prestige and easy money(*). Those, IME, tend to somehow behave like you describe, even though they will generally always try to at least emotionally support you if you have any kind of trouble. My impression is that they simply compute the expected monetary/social return to being your friend, and when this return plummets, they will consider their "time investment" not really worth it. If you start out being socially not that powerful, they might even openly scorn you / emotionally "kick" you saying you're worthless etc.
I know other SEEs who don't seem to have the above described values and they're...normal people, with their quirks, their ability to be the life of the party and great friends but also their tendency to waste money away, the tendency to be easily offended - which however normally makes them tactful etc.

(*) everybody is attracted to money and social prestige, but for some people they're primary life goals.

Have you forgotten how your own quadra works?

Subdued elements

Fe and Si
Gamma types don't tend to form or maintain groups based on fun, emotional interaction, but only take groups seriously that perform some common productive activity or discuss serious topics.

[Phantom Shadow]

I agree with OP. SEE are the biggest hypocrites and scheme the most out of all the other types. The manipulate and are pretty much conman who will fake/lie in your face but talk shit behind your back.

But they're cool, they're friends...but more rivals than friends. But im still cool with them. With Fi and my Ti there is sometimes a disconnect, but we can relate on Se. I don't want to call them stupid, which they aren't..they can be dumb, but its more like they just memorize facts and knowledge that they hear from the people they interact with and don't really understand it, but try to come off like that know what they are talking about. I find that I have to keep conversation on the surface and not go into detail because they'll lose interest because they probably feel stupid or like im trying to one up them with my intellect. They guys are like friends/rivals...but I like the girls more because im a guy, im attracted to them. The girls, just like the guys are fancy on the surface, but seem empty on the inside...but I see the lack of real volition and am not phased by their manipulation or when they try to dominate me, and kind of am protective of them (its like their little girls who are are lost inside or something)...just like I am of all women of all type..They're nice, but at the same time I have to be cautious of them because they're usually scheming or something.

If it weren't for the scheming and manipulation that they do, which most people aren't even aware of and actually think the SEE is being friendly and end up liking them for it, I wouldn't have any problem with them. That's the only problem, other then that I like them.

Of Course they SEEM dumb to you; your a Ti creative and they're Ti PoLR, you don't value there Te or Fi understanding of the world.

Of Course they SEEM domineering to you; your both Se dominate. Your both trying to control the same aspect of reality in different ways Se Ti vs Se Fi.

[xerx]

I have some experience with SEEs. Forthright about themselves is an understatement; you can read them like an open book.

[Leader]

Of Course they SEEM dumb to you; your a Ti creative and they're Ti PoLR, you don't value there Te or Fi understanding of the world.

Of Course they SEEM domineering to you; your both Se dominate. Your both trying to control the same aspect of reality in different ways Se Ti vs Se Fi.

Your're a dumbass. Watch your tone. I know this, when I say seem that's how they come across and sometimes that's how they actually are in reality. They aren't stupid people, they aren't slow, but they can be dumb in the sense that they don't thoroughly try to UNDERSTAND things because they don't care about Ti and they can be really superficial at times and are more likely to believe stupid shit. They dont have Ti to really ground them into reality. Shit I can be dumb when using my Se in the moment. Again, I said they can be domineering..all types can, but its usually Se types that try to impose their Se on mine because they feel intimidated by me, they try to test me, but it doesn't phase me and I do my own thing. I'm not bothered by them at all.

[Phantom Shadow]

Your're a dumbass. Watch your tone. I know this, when I say seem that's how they come across and sometimes that's how they actually are in reality. They aren't stupid people, they aren't slow, but they can be dumb in the sense that they don't thoroughly try to UNDERSTAND things because they don't care about Ti and they can be really superficial at times and are more likely to believe stupid shit. They dont have Ti to really ground them into reality. Shit I can be dumb when using my Se in the moment. Again, I said they can be domineering..all types can, but its usually Se types that try to impose their Se on mine because they feel intimidated by me, they try to test me, but it doesn't phase me and I do my own thing. I'm not bothered by them at all.

Name calling how childish.

Tone!?! What tone? If you read my word with hostility and malice thats on you. I was emphasizing certain words to get a point across.

Your personal perception of reality does not equal reality, nor does Ti. Your subjective personal understanding of the world is not true reality. Don't ever assume that everyone perceives anything the same way you do. And even if they did, don't assume they would interpret it the same way or come to the same conclusions.

[FDG]

Have you forgotten how your own quadra works?

Subdued elements

Fe and Si
Gamma types don't tend to form or maintain groups based on fun, emotional interaction, but only take groups seriously that perform some common productive activity or discuss serious topics.

I don't think that's true. That's just Expat's opinion.

[Eldanen]

Your're a dumbass. Watch your tone. I know this, when I say seem that's how they come across and sometimes that's how they actually are in reality. They aren't stupid people, they aren't slow, but they can be dumb in the sense that they don't thoroughly try to UNDERSTAND things because they don't care about Ti and they can be really superficial at times and are more likely to believe stupid shit. They dont have Ti to really ground them into reality. Shit I can be dumb when using my Se in the moment. Again, I said they can be domineering..all types can, but its usually Se types that try to impose their Se on mine because they feel intimidated by me, they try to test me, but it doesn't phase me and I do my own thing. I'm not bothered by them at all.

I've noticed that both the Te agenda types often seem like broken records when monologuing. After a while, I notice that their brains seem like automatic weapons. Very good at reciting facts but if you ask them to stop and think, they choke a bit. I've noticed that they tend to be quick readers, and I've actually been criticized before by a Te agenda for reading slowly. They do tend to have really fast minds. I can't stand listening to them sometimes because many of them will just go on and on about some subject. Even ESFps, who are supposed to have a short attention span, can go into this mode. I usually feel like stopping Te types sometimes and giving them a 10 words or less rule. Seriously. Get to the point. And don't repeat yourself a hundred times with varying shades of ambiguity. Another way to describe it is feeling like they are tracing a circle a thousand times without ever getting to the center. It's infuriating. Tape recorder brains, yeesh!

[Narc]

Sometimes they seem like friendlier ENTjs, but the creative ethics can cause interpersonal problems. I don't think they're that bad, but I tend not to rely on irrationals as a personal rule of thumb.

[ashlesha]

i'm trying to think back on my experiences with SEEs and the only manipulation i remember is a friend who lied about having enough gas because she just didn't care about getting us stranded and thought it was funny, or asked to "borrow" clothes when she never intended on returning them. could be annoying but it was all pretty tangible and obvious stuff that she couldn't really deny if confronted about - compared to the shady, gaslighting, underhanded sort of manipulation i've encountered from other types it didn't bother me nearly as much. any disagreements ive had with any other SEEs its always been out in the open; ive never had one pretend to be my friend if they didn't feel it. so i don't think they are angels but i wouldn't characterize any issues ive had with them the way you did, as some kind of tricky manipulation thing.

I have some experience with SEEs. Forthright about themselves is an understatement; you can read them like an open book.

this, imo.

[Kim]

I have had very close friendships with (mostly female) SEEs over the course of my life and find them to be extremely accepting and drama-free. They are also loads of fun to hang out with because they are not only spontaneous and ready to go at any given time, but also very much immersed in the moment with regards to being in tune with their surroundings, which makes me feel connected somehow. I also never felt manipulated by an SEE.

That being said, I think what might come across as unreliable or flaky is really mostly EP temperament coupled with an intense groundedness in the present. They have many friends and do lots of things and whatever they do in them moment is what they are focused on (including you). So when you actually have their attention, you HAVE their attention more than with most other types in my experience. They don't wander off in their minds or start spacing off. They will zero in on you and make you the protagonist of their physical surroundings. I don't know how to explain this really. They make me feel very comfortable and help me enjoy the presence. I love hanging out with them one-on-one or in very small close-knit groups for that reason because then I can have them sort of to myself. When there is a larger group, they do get distracted, but they still try. When you are not in their physical presence, you might have to make yourself known or remind them that you want to interact with them/need them. It is not their affection for you that changes, but their SeFi focus. The good news is that you can easily direct it back at you by just demanding their attention or by outright asking for their help. They like for people to be straightforward and blunt I think.

It might be an intertype thing, but of all the types, SEEs are the best at making me feel at ease and accepted (probably partly because yes, they are an open book. There is never TMI with them ). I mean, there are 7 years worth of my SEE appreciation plastered all over this forum.

[Kim]

From my experience SEEs have been worse than IEIs. They like to sweeten things up and lie often. Also very materialistic and can be quite superficial. Extremely defensive of their private lives to the point of paranoia. One of them just bought tickets to Thailand thinking it is going to make her find a "spiritual path" But that's just the crazy ones I had a "privilege" to meet. Obviously there are decent ones out there, the problem is that the crazy people, or those who have wronged us out are more likely to get stuck in our memories than somebody who's behavior is ordinary. Something to think about...

What's wrong with that?

[Phantom Shadow]

The problem with this thread:

At most you met less than 1% of ESFp population.

There a chance that you mistyped said people are blaming an uninvolved group.

You may have just ran into worst members of that specific type.

All these these traits and characteristics your pointing out may be exclusive to a specific demographic, generation, subgroup, subtype or subculture of that type.

No type is perfect I could start bashing thread on any and every type.

What is sitting here complaining and going to do to solve these problems?

[Kim]

I find the quadra divides in this thread entirely fascinating. A lot of the things about how SEEs are supposedly fake and manipulative make me think of how I perceive IEIs (and EIEs). I honestly have never considered SEEs to be in the least manipulative or deceptive (even if I have met the occasional shady SEE). I have, however, often thought of IEIs as manipulative and *putting on a smiley front.*

This thread really shows that it is a matter of how we perceive behavior rather than actual type-related behavioral patterns and motivations. Fi/Fe (with some Te/Ti divide thrown in there) divide, here you have it

[mu4]

OMFG...Stop with this victim bullsh*t. Stop acting like you don't have part in your relationships; YOU chose to engage in a relationship with said person, YOU chose to trust that person, YOU chose to be friends, YOU chose to get married, YOU chose to have kids, and YOU chose this person. "It takes two to tango"... there at least two sides to these stories. It may not be all your fault, but you played a role in it. Instead of sitting around casing blame; spend that time on reflecting on what you did wrong, how your going resolve the issue and how your going to prevent it from ever happening again.

Well how do you explain a person who marries you after divorcing someone elsewhere and has a kid with her and never tells you about this, and is also simultaneously screwing around 3-5(probably more) other girls(all the while telling them lies) and having sex in the bathroom with random girls while doing drugs.

Skips town eventually owing his male friends hundreds if not thousands of dollars. The only person I ever met who could pull this off was a SEE, they have some really good skills.

[FDG]

The problem with this thread:

Most people here are "experienced" and "skeptical". We all know the problems you listed (and any intelligent people can generally understand the limits of his-her own experience). So I do think your post was useless, and our posts are merely reflecting our experiences of some people we personally consider to be "SEEs". There is no scientific mark of wisdom to be earned.

[Leader]

Name calling how childish.

Tone!?! What tone? If you read my word with hostility and malice thats on you. I was emphasizing certain words to get a point across.

Your personal perception of reality does not equal reality, nor does Ti. Your subjective personal understanding of the world is not true reality. Don't ever assume that everyone perceives anything the same way you do. And even if they did, don't assume they would interpret it the same way or come to the same conclusions.

There is hostility in your post, it might not be obvious, but its there. Obviously there is miscommunication, I see that you're not understanding what im saying and you think that im being biased, for the very fact that you clearly do not understand what I am saying. You just want to get your point across and start a fight.

There is only one reality, but how people perceive it is different, yes. However some people are more closer to the truth than others, this is a fact. And who assumed that everyone perceives anything the same way I do? This is what YOU think, you're the one doing all the assuming.

[Leader]

I find the quadra divides in this thread entirely fascinating. A lot of the things about how SEEs are supposedly fake and manipulative make me think of how I perceive IEIs (and EIEs). I honestly have never considered SEEs to be in the least manipulative or deceptive (even if I have met the occasional shady SEE). I have, however, often thought of IEIs as manipulative and *putting on a smiley front.*

This thread really shows that it is a matter of how we perceive behavior rather than actual type-related behavioral patterns and motivations. Fi/Fe (with some Te/Ti divide thrown in there) divide, here you have it

Um...IEI and EIE are fake and manipulative. IEI are also naive idiots, and EIE are clowns. Forget quadra divides or whatever. Its obvious that Phantom is taking up for SEE because he/she is "ILI". Phantom wants to stand up for their dual because he/she feels as if they are being attacked. This isn't the case.

Im just laying the facts down, im just being honest. And yes, SEE are open books, because (this is going to sound like im bashing them, I can't put it in other words) they dont have much going on inside, they're mostly appearances, showy. This is what their Se is, not "real" volition.

[Kim]

Im just laying the facts down, im just being honest. And yes, SEE are open books, because (this is going to sound like im bashing them, I can't put it in other words) they dont have much going on inside, they're mostly appearances, showy. This is what their Se is, not "real" volition.

Nonsense.

[Leader]

Okay.

[rat1]

Um...IEI and EIE are fake and manipulative. IEI are also naive idiots, and EIE are clowns.

Burn them all..... TO THE OVENS WITH ALL EIES!!! >:......

Im just laying the facts down, im just being honest.

Thanks for the reminder.

And yes, SEE are open books, because (this is going to sound like im bashing them, I can't put it in other words) they dont have much going on inside, they're mostly appearances, showy. This is what their Se is, not "real" volition.

Yes, they clearly do not feel pain. When they kick or say no thats just them being flashy

[woofwoofl]

From my experience SEEs have been worse than IEIs. They like to sweeten things up and lie often.

I'd rather sweeten things than sour things if I'm to flavor them at all, and anyone's account of the world that exists around them will unavoidably be separate from, if not strictly lesser than, "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". The distance from an observation that SEEs "sweeten things up and lie often" and the assumption that they enjoy doing so is existent, if not big. Somehow this works both ways, because I expect (there it is again) that I'm to assume (and again!) that SEEs "sweeten things up and lie often" moreso than what would be, as you've said, "ordinary". Am I supposed to gauge any deviations from this quasi-midpoint based upon the sheer number of such instances caught, on the ratio of sweetening/lies to more straightforward accounts as far as I know them, or what exactly?

Also very materialistic and can be quite superficial.

I just see what I see. Disregarding what's in front of me, to me, is not only as silly as it is impossible, but negligent. The computers we both typed these words on are intricately arranged masterworks of material whose designs likely outclass a majority of the writings made due to their existence. Exhibit A

Extremely defensive of their private lives to the point of paranoia.

I wonder why ...

Me too. Luckily an answer appears right afterwards:

One of them just bought tickets to Thailand thinking it is going to make her find a "spiritual path" But that's just the crazy ones I had a "privilege" to meet. Obviously there are decent ones out there, the problem is that the crazy people, or those who have wronged us out are more likely to get stuck in our memories than somebody who's behavior is ordinary. Something to think about...

there it is! And how is finding new life in Thailand an offense large enough to warrant you calling them crazy or indecent? Who appointed you as the proper judge of what's "crazy", "decent", or "ordinary"? Would spending a disproportionately large amount of time and energy casting down these verdicts fall within the parameters of "ordinary behavior"?

This isn't all about you, really, woofl. I wouldn't make a thread seemingly condemning an entire type without a long history of experience with quite a few examples and negative experiences to draw from. I can't really show up in that chat at the moment. I don't have a computer or Internet access at home right now. Just a smart phone. And before you jump on that, I'm not blaming you for that.

I think the ultimate motivation for my posts like this is that I'm lonely, and ESFps have often treated me like we're best friends and then dropped me or gone off to who knows wherever they go.

As for me personally? If I ever seem like a fair-weather friend, and this goes for to anyone, I'm probably off somewhere trying to change the entire weather. This can take a lot of time and effort.

I wish they'd never been nice to me if they didn't intend on it being a continual behavior. Aside from that, there have been some who have been real dicks and manipulative. I've gotten better at spotting it over the years. Testing someone's reaction to a good dose of inordinate honesty seems to work well. Other types have been dicks of course, but Fi creatives often take the cake for false promises and buddy buddy behavior that isn't followed up on. I've known at least one other person who has taken issue with this kind of thing. I guess the essential point is, "Why act like a friend if you don't intend on being one?" If you don't have the time, it's not a problem. Just don't act like we're closer than we really are.

I'm almost never a shithead on purpose. The amount of "me" I have at my command is far smaller than I'd like for it to be. I'm working on that!

Fi creatives are often in addition one of the least capable types of plain old honesty, and instead smile and affirm when they really think something different. I'd rather have someone disagree with me up front, though still respectfully, than have someone who always lies to me just to preserve some positive feeling. In the end, it just creates an illusion that ends up shattering at some point.

What constitutes "plain old honesty"? Also, oftentimes someone will be partially correct about something; neither "totally right" nor "totally wrong", just at one of the infinite amount of points to be found between the two. Trying to cudgel a complex world into a compacted system of ones and zeroes is a distortion in and of itself. Ever see an extremely compacted .jpg or hear a 96kbps .mp3? Same deal.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons why people have criticized me for not opening up too quickly over the years.

Good god, just be around people you can mutually enjoy. If everyone moves closer to that goal, the world will be a lot easier.

If I don't intend on being someone's friend for the rest of my life, there are certain things I'm not going to pretend, certain ways I'm not going to be nice, just to show that I'm not going to get attached to them, out of respect for their emotions. I don't open up to someone if I don't intend on staying that way for a long time.

I had too many of my friends die for me to ever give a shit about predicting out any notions of "for the rest of our lives" ever again.

You're right in saying that Ankh's example was worse. And my thread wasn't meant to cheapen hers. Dude needs to get bitch slapped or possibly run over by a MACK.

I have had very close friendships with (mostly female) SEEs over the course of my life and find them to be extremely accepting and drama-free. They are also loads of fun to hang out with because they are not only spontaneous and ready to go at any given time, but also very much immersed in the moment with regards to being in tune with their surroundings, which makes me feel connected somehow. I also never felt manipulated by an SEE.

That being said, I think what might come across as unreliable or flaky is really mostly EP temperament coupled with an intense groundedness in the present. They have many friends and do lots of things and whatever they do in them moment is what they are focused on (including you). So when you actually have their attention, you HAVE their attention more than with most other types in my experience. They don't wander off in their minds or start spacing off. They will zero in on you and make you the protagonist of their physical surroundings. I don't know how to explain this really. They make me feel very comfortable and help me enjoy the presence. I love hanging out with them one-on-one or in very small close-knit groups for that reason because then I can have them sort of to myself. When there is a larger group, they do get distracted, but they still try. When you are not in their physical presence, you might have to make yourself known or remind them that you want to interact with them/need them. It is not their affection for you that changes, but their SeFi focus. The good news is that you can easily direct it back at you by just demanding their attention or by outright asking for their help. They like for people to be straightforward and blunt I think.

It might be an intertype thing, but of all the types, SEEs are the best at making me feel at ease and accepted (probably partly because yes, they are an open book. There is never TMI with them ). I mean, there are 7 years worth of my SEE appreciation plastered all over this forum.

YOU UNDERSTANDDD

I've noticed that both the Te agenda types often seem like broken records when monologuing. After a while, I notice that their brains seem like automatic weapons. Very good at reciting facts but if you ask them to stop and think, they choke a bit.

stopping is bad enough, but to have to think on top of all that? Intolerable!

Any of this thinking for the sake of thinking feels useless to me, and I could just as well be taking in more of the world around me to get a more solid picture of what's going on instead of trying to make guesses at stuff. I could also do more work towards something else and leave the unfinished thing where I left it, get a good night's rest, wake up, and take it all on again while more fully charged.

I've noticed that they tend to be quick readers, and I've actually been criticized before by a Te agenda for reading slowly. They do tend to have really fast minds. I can't stand listening to them sometimes because many of them will just go on and on about some subject. Even ESFps, who are supposed to have a short attention span, can go into this mode. I usually feel like stopping Te types sometimes and giving them a 10 words or less rule. Seriously. Get to the point. And don't repeat yourself a hundred times with varying shades of ambiguity. Another way to describe it is feeling like they are tracing a circle a thousand times without ever getting to the center. It's infuriating. Tape recorder brains, yeesh!

As I said before; if I use less words, we will all have less accuracy and precision as a result. Accuracy and precision feels especially crucial for me when communicating with Fe/Ti types; if I misplace and/or misuse just one word, or got forbid, use even one word which houses too many extraneous meanings, then a wild conclusion will be jumped at, a terrible mess will be made, and everything will go straight to hell! And the "circles" are left intentionally big and supple so that someone other than me could be able to harden and sharpen the circle at various different sizes, including its smallest possible form, the dot. These dots are incapable of containing anything within their perimeter and I have little use for them as a result, but it's far more possible to accurately go from wide circle to dot than to go from dot to wide circle. This is the issue with the .jpg and the .mp3 all over again. Try to take that 96kbps .mp3 up to .flac and see what happens!

@Leader , I want to go into the Se + Ti in comparison and contrast with Se + Fi, but I've been stewing on these things for years now and I'm nowhere close to piecing together a grand overview of it all. I got a lot to say on this all, but chatbox would be better for it for a multitude of reasons. Me and SLEs is more of an issue of mild misunderstandings and steel sharpening steel than anything. Me and one guy who was likely Se-SLE 8w9 routinely stared each other down within inches of each others' faces and greeted each other with the most graphic death threat we could muster every time we met, and then we just peaceably and cheerfully went about the rest of our day, oftentimes going on about workout routines and the like to each other. Never entirely understood the dynamic, but we found something that worked, and there was no smothering/suffocation type thing like what came from the worst of the ESxjs.