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Thread: Betas breaking laws and integral type of Russia split

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    Default Betas breaking laws and integral type of Russia split

    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    There definitely are decent IEI, that's for sure. Lovely, creative people, fun and sweet. It seems to me that their ethical 'manipulation' is a means of covering their Te polr. When I need to come up with an example of an IEI I think of Quentin Crisp who was famous for accepting any invitation to dinner and entertaining the hosts with his stories. (The 'Englishman in New York' song by Sting is about him, by the way). Also it's the power play that many posters have mentioned on this thread; it's as if IEI challenge their partners to demonstrate their Se because they really need it, just like any type needs information for their respective suggestive functions. IEIs believe that their 'emotions,' no matter what their manifestation is, are 'value for money' and would gladly let their partner solve their Te problems, being sweet and loving in return. However, it doesn't really fit a stereotypical male gender model; therefore what's acceptable for a woman isn't so for a man, in general public's view. Any other type besides SLE may feel that IEIs are some kind of leeches, while SLEs would see them as charming aristocratic creatures they would gladly help, just like ILIs don't mind SEEs' ethical manipulations because they see right through it and can manipulate the bejesus out of anyone, too, only with different tools I'm not talking here about people with truly criminal intentions (towards which Beta quadra in general has more inclination than any other quadra).
    why would the Beta Quadra have more criminal inclination than others? Btw , you're from Russia ... maybe you can confirm whether that people is Ni or Se valuing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    why would the Beta Quadra have more criminal inclination than others? Btw , you're from Russia ... maybe you can confirm whether that people is Ni or Se valuing.
    Because of their approach to law and power in general. This is a generalization, of course, but Beta STs can be described by the saying we have in Russian and it can be loosely translated as 'the law is like an axle — you can turn it whichever way you please, if you give it plenty of grease.' There are a lot of law abiding Betas in the armed forces and security and the police, but a lot of criminals as well.

    Russia's integral type is generally agreed to be IEI, so of course our values are mostly Ni and Se. The ones with more power have more rights. If you're not allowed to, but really want it, you can. Patriarchal society with traditional male/female roles. 'If he hits you, you know he loves you.' Many of our fairy tales depict either strong and brutal types who slay dragons but don't care enough to be kings of the freed countries (very consistent with SLEs' 'yielding' Reinin trait) or someone piss poor getting married to princesses by magic or luck or singing and telling tales after spending their lives lying around on a couch (IEI). The American dream is a self-made person who overcame every obstacle. The Russian dream is someone who did nothing until a certain event and then got everything through magic/luck/sheer brute force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    They do? I don't see Betas I know as particularly criminal, at least not the beta STs I know. They seem to respect other people's property a lot, for example. However, IEIs seem more criminal, atm, I guess. Octo's comment about only stealing from corporations or people who can afford it made me feel sick. I don't agree with that logic, as imo, people deserve what they earn, not what others earn.

    Otherwise a nice post, Kupava, though you are ESE and probably can see right through people, and in an instant know if they are bad. I'm SLE, and cannot see it well, it seems.
    Thank you! No, I don't usually see through people like that, or at least it didn't save me from once handing $300 to a complete stranger on the street. That comment you mentioned is consistent with what even law-abiding LSIs sometimes do: They can see someone's unused resource (whatever it may be) and take it if they think they know of a better use for it. Some call it stealing, they regard it as optimization

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    Because of their approach to law and power in general. This is a generalization, of course, but Beta STs can be described by the saying we have in Russian and it can be loosely translated as 'the law is like an axle — you can turn it whichever way you please, if you give it plenty of grease.' There are a lot of law abiding Betas in the armed forces and security and the police, but a lot of criminals as well.

    .
    Interesting what you say about Russia. I wanted to figure it out cause my image of it comes from Russian movies, songs (batshit crazy stuff like Ocie Ciornie) and books and it's mostly an impulsive, emotionally dark and indulging one ... with elaborate fits of temper and other "dostoyevskian" kind of demons. It sounded Beta enough to me, more in the sense of Se/Fe , I guess. Hm but don't you think it's strange that one of the most law-supporting and law-abiding societies in the world, Germany, is considered to be LSI as an integral type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    That comment you mentioned is consistent with what even law-abiding LSIs sometimes do
    ^^^^^^^ speaking of consistency

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    They do? I don't see Betas I know as particularly criminal, at least not the beta STs I know. They seem to respect other people's property a lot, for example. However, IEIs seem more criminal, atm, I guess. Octo's comment about only stealing from corporations or people who can afford it made me feel sick. I don't agree with that logic, as imo, people deserve what they earn, not what others earn.

    Otherwise a nice post, Kupava, though you are ESE and probably can see right through people, and in an instant know if they are bad. I'm SLE, and cannot see it well, it seems.
    ...You can't see right through people? Speak for yourself... There is a reason why sles are called the most sober realist.
    Last edited by Leader; 01-16-2014 at 02:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    Because of their approach to law and power in general. This is a generalization, of course, but Beta STs can be described by the saying we have in Russian and it can be loosely translated as 'the law is like an axle — you can turn it whichever way you please, if you give it plenty of grease.' There are a lot of law abiding Betas in the armed forces and security and the police, but a lot of criminals as well.

    Russia's integral type is generally agreed to be IEI, so of course our values are mostly Ni and Se. The ones with more power have more rights. If you're not allowed to, but really want it, you can. Patriarchal society with traditional male/female roles. 'If he hits you, you know he loves you.' Many of our fairy tales depict either strong and brutal types who slay dragons but don't care enough to be kings of the freed countries (very consistent with SLEs' 'yielding' Reinin trait) or someone piss poor getting married to princesses by magic or luck or singing and telling tales after spending their lives lying around on a couch (IEI). The American dream is a self-made person who overcame every obstacle. The Russian dream is someone who did nothing until a certain event and then got everything through magic/luck/sheer brute force.
    ...Your conception of sle is dead wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    ...Your conception of sle is dead wrong.
    you are very tolerant to call it a "conception". It looks more like letīs just throw some Fe-drenched prejudice in the Beta Quadra. Ooops, should I have logically filtered what I said?
    Last edited by Amber; 01-16-2014 at 02:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    some Fe-drenched prejudice in the Beta Quadra
    What's yours drenched in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Interesting what you say about Russia. I wanted to figure it out cause my image of it comes from Russian movies, songs (batshit crazy stuff like Ocie Ciornie) and books and it's mostly an impulsive, emotionally dark and indulging one ... with elaborate fits of temper and other "dostoyevskian" kind of demons. It sounded Beta enough to me, more in the sense of Se/Fe , I guess. Hm but don't you think it's strange that one of the most law-supporting and law-abiding societies in the world, Germany, is considered to be LSI as an integral type.
    Everything you mention is from awhile back, although some things really stuck in the public conscious. It's not Dostoevsky anymore, mostly because the people are much more simple now after the revolution, and the communist years really took their toll. Perhaps the things I described are more of a national thing rather than are internationally true, especially with the US and Canada and other places where 'homo homini lupus est' is just a Latin saying and not a real-life experience. But I know several SLEs and they are the scheming type; this one guy is a brilliant chief of IT security and yet takes bribes from the vendors. Another one didn't pay his friend for two months of work renovating his house (he did an excellent and hard job, by the way); he said that only one month's pay is enough. These two are just off the top of my head. Perhaps it's not a pattern, but to me, it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    Everything you mention is from awhile back, although some things really stuck in the public conscious. It's not Dostoevsky anymore, mostly because the people are much more simple now after the revolution, and the communist years really took their toll. Perhaps the things I described are more of a national thing rather than are internationally true, especially with the US and Canada and other places where 'homo homini lupus est' is just a Latin saying and not a real-life experience. But I know several SLEs and they are the scheming type; this one guy is a brilliant chief of IT security and yet takes bribes from the vendors. Another one didn't pay his friend for two months of work renovating his house (he did an excellent and hard job, by the way); he said that only one month's pay is enough. These two are just off the top of my head. Perhaps it's not a pattern, but to me, it is.
    I thought Itīs Dostoyevsky leading Russians instead of Putin nowadays. The last Russian person I talked to told me she had to get away and go make a life for herself somewhere else in Europe, because of the "closed" system where even exchange programs for students are discouraged or exams / diplomas from abroad not acknowledged . She spoke of huge disproportions between what people earn for the same services in Moskow and smaller towns. Of "social practices" that support parentsī interference in their childrenīs decisions regarding career etc. Actually I wouldnīt mind hearing more about Russia. Iīm sure itīs more constructive than a heap of inevitably biased representations of Beta types. I wonder if you really are a democratic type (socionics sense) btw.. You seem to think oneīs decision to break the law doesnīt have to do with personal principles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I thought Itīs Dostoyevsky leading Russians instead of Putin nowadays. The last Russian person I talked to told me she had to get away and go make a life for herself somewhere else in Europe, because of the "closed" system where even exchange programs for students are discouraged or exams / diplomas from abroad not acknowledged . She spoke of huge disproportions between what people earn for the same services in Moskow and smaller towns. Of "social practices" that support parentsī interference in their childrenīs decisions regarding career etc. Actually I wouldnīt mind hearing more about Russia. Iīm sure itīs more constructive than a heap of inevitably biased representations of Beta types. I wonder if you really are a democratic type (socionics sense) btw.. You seem to think oneīs decision to break the law doesnīt have to do with personal principles.
    If we're talking about the general public, the majority of the voters, then Putin is the leader. People either love him or hate him, but he is generally regarded as pretty cool, the way a 'real man' should be, and the only option we have if we want to hold our ground to the West (I don't . He was much more popular 10 years ago but still enjoys a lot of affection from most of the citizens.

    As for the 'closed system,' it does exist. I think it's in part caused by the desire to avoid the 'leakage of brains' from the country, but the students themselves aren't that willing to travel abroad since foreign languages are still a problem with the youth, not to mention anyone over 25. I was once doing internal recruitment for our company's office overseas and it was such a pain to find English speakers among 30,000+ of our employees. Out of 120 contenders for the Sales Director role only two knew it at least on an intermediate level.

    The disproportions are true, but you have to bear in mind that Moscow has bigger companies and higher levels of responsibility (i.e., people responsible for sales or IT or whatever on a country level will always be paid more than someone who does local business), and higher prices for certain things like electricity and water, etc. And a lot of people work for the state which pays less than business in any country of the world.

    Parents may have a say in where their child studies, but it's not like they impose on what they think is right. In general, the ties between parents and children are strong and stay strong even after the kids move out. Considering the disproportion between low salaries and high real estate prices (including sky-high mortgage rates), it usually happens later than sooner, and sometimes children can live in the same 1-bedroom apartment as their parents, get married, have their own kids, all the while living in the same 430 sq feet. I know this girl who lives in a 500 sq ft 1-bedroom apartment with her husband, her 4 kids, and her in-laws. They live in Moscow and her husband barely makes a living.

    And yes, I'm democratic but I also have little illusions about people. Besides, the principles you mentioned are also rooted in our types, aren't they? Not all, but many. I'm not saying every Beta person is inclined towards this kind of stuff, but I've seen so many that it looks like a pattern. I'm sorry if I have hurt your feelings, this wasn't my intention at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    And yes, I'm democratic but I also have little illusions about people. Besides, the principles you mentioned are also rooted in our types, aren't they? Not all, but many. I'm not saying every Beta person is inclined towards this kind of stuff, but I've seen so many that it looks like a pattern. I'm sorry if I have hurt your feelings, this wasn't my intention at all.
    Thanks for all the info. And lol donīt you worry about "my feelings". What you keep saying about Betas and "law breaking" kinda sounds like this : Kupava comes from Russia, which is a country with a higher corruption rate (in political science language - oligarchs and clans) and thus she may have seen a tad little more "Betas" committing said acts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    If we're talking about the general public, the majority of the voters, then Putin is the leader. People either love him or hate him, but he is generally regarded as pretty cool, the way a 'real man' should be,
    This is about all I know of him:




    Good times...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    This is about all I know of him:




    Good times...
    that must have been the ending to this story





    On the integral type of Russia, there is definitely a heavy LSI imprint on the country ever since the times of Stalin's rule, with echoes of Delta finding place within Russia's culture and literary works (a number of prominent cultural icons have been of Delta quadra). Overall, 'aristocratic' quadra influences definitely predominate. Modern day Russia is undergoing a temporary transition from Beta to Gamma with ongoing accumulation of resources into private hands and rise of average household income but also increasing income inequality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    why would the Beta Quadra have more criminal inclination than others?
    Something that I think is relevant to this is the idea of quadra progression, e.g. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ssion-by-Gilly

    Beta

    Beta is the quadra of rebellion and disruption. Betas seek to organize in the name of uniting under a worthy cause in order to enact drastic change, and to do whatever is necessary to accomplish their ends.

    Fe/Ti

    The Fe/Ti axis of Beta is primarily concerned with the organization and standardization of ideas in order to unite. They are wary of doubters or non-believers, wanting everyone in their Aristocracy to agree on the matters that are deemed most important so that they can be united in common purpose and with equal resolve. Their role is to garner support for their cause and develop a central theme for organization that will carry them through to the end. Their purpose is to build the platform from which a final plan can be launched.

    Se/Ni

    The Se/Ni axis of Beta is primarily concerned with making the necessary push to accomplish their collective goals. Their focus is on determining when and where to strike for optimal impact. Typical tactics include inducing chaos intentionally, such that, though anyone affected, including themselves, is at a disadvantage for lack of structure or certainty, at least they are ready for it, and as such can capitalize on the lack of organization in order to establish a position or make a vital move. Their role in quadra progression is to do that which others are not willing to do in order to enact necessary change.
    A lot of highly organised criminal structures (e.g. Mafia) are usually said to be beta - I don't know enough about them to know the reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    Octo's comment about only stealing from corporations or people who can afford it made me feel sick. I don't agree with that logic, as imo, people deserve what they earn, not what others earn.
    That's a bit naive - if the world was fair I'd agree with you, but it really isn't. Does someone like Bernard Madoff, or a corporation like British American Tobacco, or Enron deserve what they earned? There are thousands of corporations who exploit people every day without ever facing repercussions, even if everyone knows what they're doing (Nestle, American Apparel, Coca-Cola, the music industry...). I have zero problem stealing stacks of napkins and packets of salt from McDonald's, for example - I consider it my own small (admittedly cowardly) contribution to consumer activism. If a banker-looking type dropped a $50 note while walking past me bragging on his phone about how many deals he closed that day, I would feel OK giving the $50 to a homeless person instead of back to the banker, which is technically a crime.

    The central idea of the TV show Leverage - stealing money from corrupt corporations and returning it to their victims, to rebalance a society that is inherently stacked against those born underprivileged - is something which I think has a particularly Beta sense of justice to it. Dexter is another example.
    Last edited by octo; 01-19-2014 at 08:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    I suppose it depends on which type in the Beta Quadra a country "acts like". Commenting on this : http://www.socionics.us/practice/ethnosocionics.shtml , I agree with Germany and Ti, LSI more specifically. And I would consider at least Spain and Italy to be organized by Fe socially. This has to do with the discussion in another post, but parts of Central and Southern Italy look extraverted and "ethical" to me. Thereīs something about it that reminds me of intrusive Fe and the tendency to judge people primarily by group origin rather than other (objective) criteria. I can hardy see Gamma SF. For France I have in mind Fi, not Fe, in an irrational form like IEE or Gamma. So to go back to Russia and the discussion about "criminal potential".

    The Fe/Ti axis of Beta is primarily concerned with the organization and standardization of ideas in order to unite. I think with TiSe it very much depends on the rules /principles that are considered the best and foremost. Those will be consistently applied and deviation from them will not be welcome. I guess thatīs what explains the fact that both modern Germany with its efficient order&correctness and Stalinist Russia smack of LSI.
    Last edited by Amber; 01-19-2014 at 10:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    Parents may have a say in where their child studies, but it's not like they impose on what they think is right. In general, the ties between parents and children are strong and stay strong even after the kids move out. Considering the disproportion between low salaries and high real estate prices (including sky-high mortgage rates), it usually happens later than sooner, and sometimes children can live in the same 1-bedroom apartment as their parents, get married, have their own kids, all the while living in the same 430 sq feet. I know this girl who lives in a 500 sq ft 1-bedroom apartment with her husband, her 4 kids, and her in-laws. They live in Moscow and her husband barely makes a living.
    I'm not Russian, but this description approximates my experience of growing up in a tightly knit, family-oriented culture, the main difference resting on the inconsideration of monetary incentives for our living arrangements. Tradition and a sense of tribal affiliation were the chief drivers for much of our social interaction.
    Last edited by xerx; 01-19-2014 at 11:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Stuff
    I think pigeonholing a whole country into a single sociotype is a futile exercise - can you pick an overall type for your family? If you can't pick a single type to describe a group of less than 7 people, how are you going to apply a type to a whole country? For example, Germany - how are you going to encapsulate the rigid scheduling of public transport, the welcoming happy hipster vibe of East Berlin, the rising skinheads of the south, the cheap nastiness of the Reeperbahn, the willingness to invest in R&D, Oktoberfest into a single sociotype, to the exclusion of others? Dominant functions, quadras, maybe. Maybe small elements of each country, e.g. foreign policy, economic regulation, interpersonal communication style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    I think pigeonholing a whole country into a single sociotype is a futile exercise - can you pick an overall type for your family? If you can't pick a single type to describe a group of less than 7 people, how are you going to apply a type to a whole country? For example, Germany - how are you going to encapsulate the rigid scheduling of public transport, the welcoming happy hipster vibe of East Berlin, the rising skinheads of the south, the cheap nastiness of the Reeperbahn, the willingness to invest in R&D, Oktoberfest into a single sociotype, to the exclusion of others? Dominant functions, quadras, maybe. Maybe small elements of each country, e.g. foreign policy, economic regulation, interpersonal communication style.
    Iīm talking mainly of organization of society. So yes, punctuality in everything, from public transport to casual meetings with locals shows that Rationality is deff valued. Subdued interpersonal style, limited and neutral eye contact (which I usually associate with introversion and thinking), strong and clear social boundaries in crowded places or means of transport, predictable (and operative) bureaucracy. Lots of smaller-unit "rules and regulations" within the country. And so on. Iīm not talking of super famous customs and events like Oktoberfest or carnivals. Though that could be interpreted as idiotic Fe-seeking lol. And talking about underlying "unwritten rules" which kind of have their own economic explanation .... in certain countries in Eastern Europe, thereīs a small risk of being robbed in buses or railway. stations, even as a banal-looking tourist (you donīt have to look rich and opulent as shit to attract attention). You almost always have to fast and subtly count your change when you buy something. In Italy or Spain (the parts I know) social interaction is influenced by your ethnicity, your network of friends, your clothing style, quantity and quality of make-up as a female etc. And you donīt have to watch your back too closely, but it can happen that someone steals your phone. In France (Paris at least) some locals you chat with will more or less subtly let you know you could use a train ticket twice or just go for a free ride by tram. In Germany if someone forgot to take their cash from the machine, whoever is in the queue calls attention to that. If a wallet is found in a toilet or on the street, it is kind of automatically taken to the lost-and-found bureau. Even their ridiculous, but justifiable separation of garbage is Ti lmao. Simple stuff like that. Well iīm just using Germany almost symbolically here , cause Iīve seen some similar practices in Denmark or Austria or Belgium or Luxembourg.Theyīre just not so lucky to be used as a representative example of efficiency.

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    That level still requires a lot of overgeneralisation though. For example

    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    And talking about underlying "unwritten rules" which kind of have their own economic explanation .... in certain countries in Eastern Europe, thereīs a small risk of being robbed in buses or railway. stations, even as a banal-looking tourist (you donīt have to look rich and opulent as shit to attract attention). You almost always have to fast and subtly count your change when you buy something.
    There are suburbs in Sydney like that, usually lower socio-economic class suburbs with ethnic gang activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    In Italy or Spain (the parts I know) social interaction is influenced by your ethnicity, your network of friends, your clothing style, quantity and quality of make-up as a female etc. And you donīt have to watch your back too closely, but it can happen that someone steals your phone.
    That could also describe many parts of Sydney.

    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    In Germany if someone forgot to take their cash from the machine, whoever is in the queue calls attention to that.
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Even their ridiculous, but justifiable separation of garbage is Ti lmao.
    Again, also applicable to Sydney.

    I think the problem with typing countries is because of their size, diversity and lack of mobility, as well as the fact that there's nothing preventing a country from being more than one type. A company, for example, would be influenced by the types of their directors, and if a member strongly disagrees with the values of the company, they are unlikely to get along with the other employees and are unlikely to rise up the ranks, and can easily change jobs. Additionally, companies frequently have statements listing "core values" and such, hence companies tend to be relatively stable and consistent and therefore typeable.

    A country, on the other hand, is much more difficult to leave, and factors like a clash of values are less important than factors like friends or relatives they know in other countries, economy, distance, political stability etc. Countries and even cities tend to have enclaves of quadras, for example, Sydney's inner west suburbs are liberal, hipster, Alpha-Beta dens of anti-establishment intellectualism and adventurous food, whereas its southern rural areas are big Deltay regions of tradition and conservative "family values". There's no unifying policy on public services, for example, Sydney has poorly organised, slow-developing public transport, but recently introduced a vastly over-simplified Ti-ish system.

    I suppose you could type the stereotype of each country, e.g. the punctual, exacting German; the sleazy, corrupt, food-loving Italian; the super capitalist, imperial American; the lazy, sunbathing, "she'll be right mate" Australian... which I think is what your analysis ends up doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    Otherwise, I do think Betas are more inclined to follow some inner logic when they evaluate what is just/unjust rather than the law that applies, and that's fine by me.
    Yep, that's what I was getting at - the Betas I know tend to have a consistent internal moral code that they abide by, and the chances of that always matching up with the specific laws of their country is very low, given the complete lack of consistency and of most (all?) countries' legal codes. Also, the inner logic is not always "just" by the standards of sane people, and the logic is not always fairly applied, or based on reality
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    That level still requires a lot of overgeneralisation though.
    A country, on the other hand, is much more difficult to leave, and factors like a clash of values are less important than factors like friends or relatives they know in other countries, economy, distance, political stability etc. Countries and even cities tend to have enclaves of quadras, for example, Sydney's inner west suburbs are liberal, hipster, Alpha-Beta dens of anti-establishment intellectualism and adventurous food, whereas its southern rural areas are big Deltay regions of tradition and conservative "family values". There's no unifying policy on public services, for example, Sydney has poorly organised, slow-developing public transport, but recently introduced a vastly over-simplified Ti-ish system.

    I suppose you could type the stereotype of each country, e.g. the punctual, exacting German; the sleazy, corrupt, food-loving Italian; the super capitalist, imperial American; the lazy, sunbathing, "she'll be right mate" Australian... which I think is what your analysis ends up doing.
    I agree with the overgeneralization aspect, but keep in mind the idea of sketching some integral types or a brand of "ethnosocionics" does not originate from me.And itīs not something found on the fly, I assume. And I actually think your very flexibility and tendency to add aspects and "complexity" is a sign of irrational temperament and not "rigidly" Ti valuing. so to speak . Remember that you said "rigid German transport scheduling" whereas I say "super punctual". (thatīs my Ni engaging in perspective understanding and confrontation here). After all according to your reasoning even Quadra Values or Socionics types are prone to rely just on strong stereotyping , so letīs just fuck the whole system. Cause descriptions say organized LSI, strategic LIE, fun-loving SEE, sometimes insightful, but whimsical IEI etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I agree with the overgeneralization aspect, but keep in mind the idea of sketching some integral types or a brand of "ethnosocionics" does not originate from me.And itīs not something found on the fly, I assume. And I actually think your very flexibility and tendency to add aspects and "complexity" is a sign of irrational temperament and not "rigidly" Ti valuing. so to speak . Remember that you said "rigid German transport scheduling" whereas I say "super punctual". (thatīs my Ni engaging in perspective understanding and confrontation here). After all according to your reasoning even Quadra Values or Socionics types are prone to rely just on strong stereotyping , so letīs just fuck the whole system. Cause descriptions say organized LSI, strategic LIE, fun-loving SEE, sometimes insightful, but whimsical IEI etc.
    Yeah, I mainly wanted to point out that ethnosocionics is almost purely onanistic. Socionics does largely proceed on stereotypes, but typing individuals or structures that are dominated by a small, self-selected group of individuals is less prone to inaccurate oversimplifications because it's impossible (according to Model A) for an individual to be more than one type, and like-minded individuals are likely to be similar types or have shared values; however, a group of people randomly thrown together (families, countries) can sometimes be better characterised as, say, a beta and a delta faction who are constantly bumping heads, or an alpha unit with a lean towards beta characteristics, rather than a single type. Carry on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    Yeah, I mainly wanted to point out that ethnosocionics is almost purely onanistic. Socionics does largely proceed on stereotypes, but typing individuals or structures that are dominated by a small, self-selected group of individuals is less prone to inaccurate oversimplifications because it's impossible (according to Model A) for an individual to be more than one type, and like-minded individuals are likely to be similar types or have shared values; however, a group of people randomly thrown together (families, countries) can sometimes be better characterised as, say, a beta and a delta faction who are constantly bumping heads, or an alpha unit with a lean towards beta characteristics, rather than a single type. Carry on.
    I can rather loosely associate a society with a valued function . Of course you have to know it well. And it might take some capacity of abstraction. I disagree with many points youīre trying to make here and I donīt want to insult your intelligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    Yup, and that's when other Betas start fighting the not-so-just Betas. lol


    As a side note, since this discussion has failed to mention H****r in some time. WW2 was so Beta. Hit**r against Stalin against Churchill. EIE vs SLE vs SLE. Lol. Us common betas are really needed to not let the law get TOO out of hand, cause if it does, there will be world wars.
    So ... if Iīm not a fan of ****** does it mean Iīm mistyped ? Or maybe I should just force myself to like him as my dual

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    In my region of orign (north-eastern Italy), garbage is separated in an even more detailed (differentiated) way than in most of Germany. Just sayin'.

    AshSun has her own opinions, but I still claim that at the very least northern Italy is ESI-like. The whole of the country seems SEE, at the very least some Fi type.

    In Italy or Spain (the parts I know) social interaction is influenced by your ethnicity, your network of friends, your clothing style, quantity and quality of make-up as a female etc.
    And where exactly these factors don't influence social interaction? :S
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    In my region of orign (north-eastern Italy), garbage is separated in an even more detailed (differentiated) way than in most of Germany. Just sayin'.

    AshSun has her own opinions, but I still claim that at the very least northern Italy is ESI-like. The whole of the country seems SEE, at the very least some Fi type.


    And where exactly these factors don't influence social interaction? :S
    Including areas like Puglia or Napoli?! I donīt know Northern Italy at all, I have no opinion about it. I would be surprised to death if garbage were collected more systematically than in Germany lol. Iīve also found this shit : http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...THNO-SOCIONICS Thereīīs no way Italy has any relation to SEI as a type.

    And where exactly these factors don't influence social interaction? :S

    In Northern countries when people wanna apply for a job, for example. In the UK, in Switzerland etc. In Germany to a certain extent, much more than in Latin countries imho. As far as I know higher jobs are not unofficially kept "closed" just for natives. As for fashion and make-up ... haha, well, actually in such a dry and boring and predictable society as Germany women can raise suspicious looks if they apply too much lipstick and stuff. The trend is pure freshly-teenage-looking gloss. And donīt try to hide, if youīre Italian ...it was already evident if īve got a weakness for Eastern Europeans, Fi egos or not .

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    Well, 50% of the italian population lives in the north, so I think it's hard to generalize a trend if you go by what happens in Puglia or Napoli (I don't have any experience with anything south of Rome, either).

    Jobs kept "closed" just for natives? If you speak the language and have a work permit, it's not generally true - in the private sector, at the very least. There's almost 5 million foreign-born ppl living in Italy, and they have to make a living somehow.
    Some high-level jobs in more "public-like" companies require you to have politicians as friends, yes.

    Finally, German trains are very often late, at least in 2014...(unfortunately, since I have to take them weekly).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, 50% of the italian population lives in the north, so I think it's hard to generalize a trend if you go by what happens in Puglia or Napoli (I don't have any experience with anything south of Rome, either).

    Jobs kept "closed" just for natives? If you speak the language and have a work permit, it's not generally true - in the private sector, at the very least. There's almost 5 million foreign-born ppl living in Italy, and they have to make a living somehow.
    Some high-level jobs in more "public-like" companies require you to have politicians as friends, yes.

    Finally, German trains are very often late, at least in 2014...(unfortunately, since I have to take them weekly).
    My acquaintances from France and Italy told me without any glossing that people from certain ethnic groups (e.g. Eastern Europeans, Turks, other Asians...) are not exactly welcome in white-collar jobs. Mostly cause of a not very abundant nr. of employment opportunities in general.
    Iīve had some regular contact with Germany myself ...and tbh I canīt really complain about transport or bureaucracy (compared to other places ...). Itīs actually one of my favourite societies, which to my mind confirms the validity of its association with Ti by ethnosocionists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    I think you just did
    no, I didnīt. Thatīs why I didnīt interfere with her candid comment on "valued stealing from institutions and corporations" while arguing that the IEIs are not "defective" as a type, but so much depends on personal psychological health and intelligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    My acquaintances from France and Italy told me without any glossing that people from certain ethnic groups (e.g. Eastern Europeans, Turks, other Asians...) are not exactly welcome in white-collar jobs. Mostly cause of a not very abundant nr. of employment opportunities in general.
    Iīve had some regular contact with Germany myself ...and tbh I canīt really complain about transport or bureaucracy (compared to other places ...). Itīs actually one of my favourite societies, which to my mind confirms the validity of its association with Ti by ethnosocionists.
    There are in general not many jobs in Italy and France. That leads to more jeaulousy.
    Italy is by far the most open racist society in Western Europe. Keyword is open.

    Italy has also almost no racial diversity in the upper class. Whereas in France or UK there ade dir example rich black people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    There are in general not many jobs in Italy and France. That leads to more jeaulousy.
    Italy is by far the most open racist society in Western Europe. Keyword is open.

    Italy has also almost no racial diversity in the upper class. Whereas in France or UK there ade dir example rich black people.
    Yes that's correct.

    Upper class, well, there aren't even that many "upper class" people to begin with, kind of (since we're poorer than France or the UK)...except very old industrial families or ex-nobles.

    In short: there is no space in the "upper class" for anyone that doesn't have its (rich) family roots in Italy since at least 60-70 years.

    canīt really complain about transport or bureaucracy (compared to other places ...)
    The bureaucracy is generally okay, very efficient. Public transport - there's a wide network, but many regional and high speed trains are often late. (I live in Germany)
    Last edited by FDG; 01-19-2014 at 06:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yes that's correct.

    Upper class, well, there aren't even that many "upper class" people to begin with, kind of (since we're poorer than France or the UK)...except very old industrial families or ex-nobles.

    In short: there is no space in the "upper class" for anyone that doesn't have its (rich) family roots in Italy since at least 60-70 years.



    The bureaucracy is generally okay, very efficient. Public transport - there's a wide network, but many regional and high speed trains are often late. (I live in Germany)
    Open racism is rather Fe-like .. if we stick to this definition of integral types as encouraged "common language":

    • certain aspects of reality are freely discussed in all their complexity, while others are avoided or carefully restricted
    • one information element becomes the dominant "common language" of the group; convincing arguments are phrased in this language and group members revert to this language when making contact with new group members or people they don't know within the group
    • the group takes on behavioral patterns typical of a certain socionic type with its inherent strengths and weaknesse s

    Fi would at least try to be PC and Gamma would just mind their own business and families. Anyway to have a clearer picture Iīd have to go visit the whole country of something. ___and oh, man. For a LIE perfectionist even German transport sucks . You just prolly have a better vision of it, next time I may notice improvements .
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I can rather loosely associate a society with a valued function . Of course you have to know it well. And it might take some capacity of abstraction. I disagree with many points youīre trying to make here and I donīt want to insult your intelligence.
    There's a difference between not being able to do something and not seeing the point in doing something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Anyway, here's another relevant thread, since none of the usual forum regulars seem to be around or don't want to reply: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Ethnosocionics
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    Because of their approach to law and power in general. This is a generalization, of course, but Beta STs can be described by the saying we have in Russian and it can be loosely translated as 'the law is like an axle — you can turn it whichever way you please, if you give it plenty of grease.' There are a lot of law abiding Betas in the armed forces and security and the police, but a lot of criminals as well.

    Russia's integral type is generally agreed to be IEI, so of course our values are mostly Ni and Se. The ones with more power have more rights. If you're not allowed to, but really want it, you can. Patriarchal society with traditional male/female roles. 'If he hits you, you know he loves you.' Many of our fairy tales depict either strong and brutal types who slay dragons but don't care enough to be kings of the freed countries (very consistent with SLEs' 'yielding' Reinin trait) or someone piss poor getting married to princesses by magic or luck or singing and telling tales after spending their lives lying around on a couch (IEI). The American dream is a self-made person who overcame every obstacle. The Russian dream is someone who did nothing until a certain event and then got everything through magic/luck/sheer brute force.
    That sounds SEIish rather than IEIs. There is even a description of SEIs where it states that SEIs believe in things like luck and destiny. Betas and Gammas generally disregard such attitudes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    There's a difference between not being able to do something and not seeing the point in doing something.
    wow, youīre shaping a "difference" in the external world . Maybe your Ti is not really weak

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    wow, youīre shaping a "difference" in the external world . Maybe your Ti is not really weak
    Extracting a single dominant theme from a complex system is the realm of Ni, not Ti, so maybe try your "I haz T ego, I must have teh brainz" schtick elsewhere?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    Extracting a single dominant theme from a complex system is the realm of Ni, not Ti, so maybe try your "I haz T ego, I must have teh brainz" schtick elsewhere?
    Do what Silke did about Stratievsk. and then talk about what Ni-Ti can do. Ni alone is rambling and imagining. The rest is BS and rationalization of inability. Write some poetry instead.

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