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    Default Fi Fe

    Here's the explanation of difference between Fi and Fe

    Fi is empathy

    Fe is sympathy


    http://blazenfluff.com/the-power-of-...-and-sympathy/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Here's the explanation of difference between Fi and Fe

    Fi is empathy

    Fe is sympathy


    http://blazenfluff.com/the-power-of-...-and-sympathy/
    Indeed/agreed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    If that is true, then why would anyone value Fe >Fi?
    Why would anyone value Gouda > Cheddar?

    Anyway:

    Fi is affective emotions, Fe is reactive emotions. Fi works long term, Fe works short term:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...fi-and-fe.html

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...ork-floor.html
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    did u even see the clip maritsa posted?
    Yes I did, and I don't agree the clip explains the difference between Fi and Fe. It's a shallow story about emotional communication, a thing that started to become popular in my early twenties and that I over time learned to recognize as a social construct: something everyone believes, but which is fundamentally not true. Very similar to "Women are from Venus, men are from Mars". I'm amazed that this kind of pop psychology is still being advocated today. But then I always found these RSA conceptualizations really shallow and dumb.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    And what you just wrote, is what I meant with my first comment. ;-)
    Well, I'm glad we agree, Just another example of Maritsa trying to show off her moral superiority.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    If that is true, then why would anyone value Fe >Fi?
    becuz VI

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Why would anyone value Gouda > Cheddar?

    Anyway:

    Fi is affective emotions, Fe is reactive emotions. Fi works long term, Fe works short term:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...fi-and-fe.html

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...ork-floor.html
    I kind of agree with long terms vs short-term. But not with the bunch of emotions your dissociate. And yes, Fi is responsible for much rationalized behavior. I would say Fi is principles and implicit "rules" of relating ; Fe is emotions expressed and influencing people by that means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I kind of agree with long terms vs short-term. But not with the bunch of emotions your dissociate. And yes, Fi is responsible for much rationalized behavior. I would say Fi is principles and implicit "rules" of relating ; Fe is emotions expressed and influencing people by that means.
    Alright, what then, in your opinion are the emotions related to Fi and Fe respectively? And why? Or do you think Fe and Fi deal with the same emotions, and perhaps the only thing that is different is the way they treat these emotions?
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Alright, what then, in your opinion are the emotions related to Fi and Fe respectively? And why? Or do you think Fe and Fi deal with the same emotions, and perhaps the only thing that is different is the way they treat these emotions?
    I don't think one feels different things with Fe or Fi . To my mind it's more a matter of whether stuff is expressed as it is , let's say in a relatively raw fashion , or not. The way I see Fe, it's oriented towards manipulating people --- say, temper tantrums or ass-kissing. While Fi is more hidden and thinking-wise more systemic in a way, it has to do with beliefs about people's character and what one should do to maintain certain relationships. And I would say it has "moral" connotations. Fi also evaluates people from that pov. .

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I don't think one feels different things with Fe or Fi . To my mind it's more a matter of whether stuff is expressed as it is , let's say in a relatively raw fashion , or not. The way I see Fe, it's oriented towards manipulating people --- say, temper tantrums or ass-kissing. While Fi is more hidden and thinking-wise more systemic in a way, it has to do with beliefs about people's character and what one should do to maintain certain relationships. And I would say it has "moral" connotations. Fi also evaluates people from that pov. .
    I get your point. I still disagree, because I do think Gammas and Deltas are e.g. very capable of having temper tantrums. But when they do have these, they are accompanied by a different kind of emotionality than the ones you see in Alphas and Betas. Also, I think the difference you are describing here is not so much an Fe/Fi difference, but a difference between people operating on two different levels of self-restraint. These differences usually operate along the lines of level of education (people with higher education often have more self-restraint) or level of intellect. This only roughly correlates with Fe/Fi.

    Anyway, each their own two cents.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I get your point. I still disagree, because I do think Gammas and Deltas are e.g. very capable of having temper tantrums. But when they do have these, they are accompanied by a different kind of emotionality than the ones you see in Alphas and Betas. Also, I think the difference you are describing here is not so much an Fe/Fi difference, but a difference between people operating on two different levels of self-restraint. These differences usually operate along the lines of level of education (people with higher education often have more self-restraint) or level of intellect. This only roughly correlates with Fe/Fi.

    Anyway, each their own two cents.
    Roughly paraphrased :

    The extraverted feeling type
    Extraverted feeling is based upon accepted or traditional social values and opinions. It involves a conforming, adjusting response to objective circumstances that strives for harmonious relations with the world. Because it depends so much on external stimuli rather than upon true subjective preferences, such feeling can sometimes seem cold, 'unfeeling', artificial or put on for effect.

    The extraverted feeling type follows fashion and seeks to harmonize personal feelings with general social values. Thinking is always subordinate to feeling and is ignored or repressed if intellectual conclusions fail to confirm the convictions of the heart. When this type is extreme or neurotic, feeling may become gushing or extravagant and dependent upon momentary enthusiasms that may quickly turn about with changing circumstances. Such a person may therefore seem hysterical, fickle, moody or even to be suffering from multiple personality. Repressed thinking may also erupt in infantile, negative, obsessive ways. This can lead to the attribution of dreaded characteristics to the very objects or people that are most loved and valued.


    The introverted feeling type
    Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.
    The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.

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    I think this woman's depictions of empathy and especially sympathy are wrong.

    Empathy is being able to relate to someone and feel what they feel in a certain situation but not necessarily doing anything about it.
    Sympathy is acknowledging but not necessarily feeling the other person's emotions and trying to console them.
    At least that's the way I've seen them defined everywhere else.

    I believe the bear was being both empathetic and sympathetic while the goat was just being insensitive.


    Also, wouldn't the bear's actions in the video be Fe because it's dealing with emotions and not relationships like Fi?

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    The video did try to bring as an example just as what Jung explains about Fi that "Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others."

    Because Fi doesn't respond to the feelings of others and says "well at least you have a house" instead of Fe which will say "aww, I'm sorry you lost your house" Fi undervalues the object's emotional state. Not that Fi doesn't care about the person's emotional state, it's just that their response is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Roughly paraphrased :

    The extraverted feeling type
    Extraverted feeling is based upon accepted or traditional social values and opinions. It involves a conforming, adjusting response to objective circumstances that strives for harmonious relations with the world. Because it depends so much on external stimuli rather than upon true subjective preferences, such feeling can sometimes seem cold, 'unfeeling', artificial or put on for effect.

    The extraverted feeling type follows fashion and seeks to harmonize personal feelings with general social values. Thinking is always subordinate to feeling and is ignored or repressed if intellectual conclusions fail to confirm the convictions of the heart. When this type is extreme or neurotic, feeling may become gushing or extravagant and dependent upon momentary enthusiasms that may quickly turn about with changing circumstances. Such a person may therefore seem hysterical, fickle, moody or even to be suffering from multiple personality. Repressed thinking may also erupt in infantile, negative, obsessive ways. This can lead to the attribution of dreaded characteristics to the very objects or people that are most loved and valued.


    The introverted feeling type
    Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.
    The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.
    We're not quite on the same wavelength here. These two descriptions are about types (ExFj and IxFj), whereas I discuss Fi and Fe as information elements. On top of that, I got the feeling that the description of the introverted Feeling type is not Socionics, it seems to blend elements of the INFP and INFJ MBTI-description. So I googled it and arrived at this page:

    http://www.transpersonalscience.org/types.aspx

    Although these descriptions come close to the true Jungian foundation, I do feel the introverted descriptions suffer a bit from the effects of the J/P Switch.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    The video did try to bring as an example just as what Jung explains about Fi that "Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others."

    Because Fi doesn't respond to the feelings of others and says "well at least you have a house" instead of Fe which will say "aww, I'm sorry you lost your house" Fi undervalues the object's emotional state. Not that Fi doesn't care about the person's emotional state, it's just that their response is different.
    I can basically assess what they do more than what they feel. Indeed. Say, if you lost your job, a Fe starts "commiserating" cause they think that´s what makes you fell better ATM. A Fi can sound harsh and point out what you may have done wrong there, cause they think correcting some self-defeating tendencies help you more than momentary words of sympathy. As a close relative, for instance, neither would be actually glad or indifferent about the situation.
    Last edited by Amber; 01-16-2014 at 12:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I can basically asses what they do more than what they feel. Indeed. Say, if you lost your job, a Fe starts "commiserating" cause they think that´s what makes you fell better ATM. A Fi can sound harsh and point out what you may have done wrong there, cause they think correcting some self-defeating tendencies help you more than momentary words of sympathy. As a close relative, for instance, neither would be actually glad or indifferent about the situation.
    Yes, I do like your post very much

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    We're not quite on the same wavelength here. These two descriptions are about types (ExFj and IxFj), whereas I discuss Fi and Fe as information elements. On top of that, I got the feeling that the description of the introverted Feeling type is not Socionics, it seems to blend elements of the INFP and INFJ MBTI-description. So I googled it and arrived at this page:

    http://www.transpersonalscience.org/types.aspx

    Although these descriptions come close to the true Jungian foundation, I do feel the introverted descriptions suffer a bit from the effects of the J/P Switch.
    Ok, read Jung and then come back and say if there´s no relation between a type defined by a leading function and information elements pertaining to that function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Ok, read Jung and then come back and say if there´s no relation between a type defined by a leading function and information elements pertaining to that function.
    I have read Jung, and in my opinion much of what Jung writes and the way it was written is so complex that is not so easily understood. You need to know a hell of a lot more about Jung's idea to make sense out of Psychological Types. But that being said, that's not the issue here. Let me, for the record, tell you how I see things.

    First of all, the description of Extraverted Feeling: I think this description makes a caricature of Extroverted Feelers, as if they are emotional manipulators. We'll sometimes they are, sometimes they are truly sincere and use their Fe to free people from being stuck in some kind of debilitating emotional state. The kind of Extroverted Feeling described here, is not how I see Socionics Fe.

    What we need to do here, is falsify behavior. Definitively Fe can and is often much more verbally expressive than Fi, I have observed the behaviors of Gammas and Deltas in groups of people that were not very well educated, or often did not even finish high school. I have found that although I often do get along a lot better with the Deltas in these groups than with the Betas, such Deltas often express themselves in verbally histrionic ways. It's a sort of Fe/Fi blend: the form is Fe, the content is Fi.

    This is why I think an Fe description such as the one you presented, actually describes (in part) a cultural phenomenon. To be honest, my thinking about this currently is rather hypothetical, but I do feel that e.g. in a society that is dominated by Beta cultural values, one might actually see the (Beta) elite showing a great level of control over their emotional expression, i.e. not being as histrionic about it.

    ETA: what I forgot to say about the cultural component, is that e.g. in a society that is dominated by Delta values, it is more likely for Betas to be "pushed" into the lower classes of society. Lets assume for now that lower classes are more verbally emotionally expressive, than it's easy to see why one would confuse Fe with emotional expressiveness. You could, for example also conclude that black people are more criminally inclined than white people, if you ignore that it's not being black that makes people criminal, but more often the social situation they are in.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    A Fi can sound harsh and point out what you may have done wrong there, cause they think correcting some self-defeating tendencies help you more than momentary words of sympathy.
    I'm not sure about it. That's not really going to help creating an harmonious relationship - actually, it sounds something like a Te type would do, and something a Fi type would try to "correct" in a Te type.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I'm not sure about it. That's not really going to help creating an harmonious relationship - actually, it sounds something like a Te type would do, and something a Fi type would try to "correct" in a Te type.
    my point is that Fe user would respond to kind of momentary human / emotional needs. While Fi would hold the person up as an ideal (sometimes according to their own views of what is right and wrong) and may disregard what the person actually feels. I grew up with FiSe. Maybe Te base would come from a different place, not presenting things as character flaws, but "professional mistakes" - you're not much worth, you're incompetent, you should have stayed there all day till doing it right etc,.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    my point is that Fe user would respond to kind of momentary human / emotional needs. While Fi would hold the person up as an ideal (sometimes according to their own views of what is right and wrong) and may disregard what the person actually feels. I grew up with FiSe. Maybe Te base would come from a different place, not presenting things as character flaws, but "professional mistakes" - you're not much worth, you're incompetent, you should have stayed there all day till doing it right etc,.
    I think this might be how it feels when you're in your shoes (which in itself is legitimate, of course). Speaking as an Fi-creative, I do perceive the emotional (Fe) state of another person, but I'm definitively not inclined to act upon it. If however, someone signals the need for Fi, it becomes very difficult for me not to act.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I think this might be how it feels when you're in your shoes (which in itself is legitimate, of course). Speaking as an Fi-creative, I do perceive the emotional (Fe) state of another person, but I'm definitively not inclined to act upon it. If however, someone signals the need for Fi, it becomes very difficult for me not to act.
    Probably. I suppose for a Fi user it's easier to infer feelings or internal states, not just analyze behavior or thinking. To me Fi base seems demanding, as a Rational , especially with Gamma values. Both with self and with others. I've only seen my ESI mother let out what she feels in an immediate form once, when her sister died suddenly. She cried at the funeral. Yet she didn't attempt to pamper anyone , she was just constantly doing stuff around. She was always critical of her SEI brother whom she considered kind of lazy, self-absorbed and unambitious. I assume she did care about him nonetheless. In her eyes he could have done much more with his life apart from watching lousy tv after work. She looked down on his lack of interest in books or other cultural stuff. That's what she valued. I think Fi would like to see their own values in people around and struggle for it, that's why they choose their relationships carefully based on affinity. This aspect from the description in particular was very obvious in Fi people I've known well : He has the ability to mould and perfect both his own and others' wishes. -> http://www.socionics.us/works/socion2.shtml.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Here's the explanation of difference between Fi and Fe

    Fi is empathy

    Fe is sympathy


    http://blazenfluff.com/the-power-of-...-and-sympathy/
    So stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Probably. I suppose for a Fi user it's easier to infer feelings or internal states, not just analyze behavior or thinking. To me Fi base seems demanding, as a Rational , especially with Gamma values. Both with self and with others. I've only seen my ESI mother let out what she feels in an immediate form once, when her sister died suddenly. She cried at the funeral. Yet she didn't attempt to pamper anyone , she was just constantly doing stuff around.
    That's also clouded by mother-stuff. Plenty of mothers behave in a..."mother-like" way which coulds type-perception.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That's also clouded by mother-stuff. Plenty of mothers behave in a..."mother-like" way which coulds type-perception.
    this case could be, nice attempt at playing psychologist. But those I dated were not my mothers. She´s ESI - Se anyway. And I´ve noticed ESI - Fi is a tad softer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    this case could be, nice attempt at playing psychologist. But those I dated were not my mothers. She´s ESI - Se anyway. And I´ve noticed ESI - Fi is a tad softer.
    I'm not playing anything, you're misreading my intentions. Okay then, I thougth you were mostly talking about your mother.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Probably. I suppose for a Fi user it's easier to infer feelings or internal states, not just analyze behavior or thinking. To me Fi base seems demanding, as a Rational , especially with Gamma values. Both with self and with others. I've only seen my ESI mother let out what she feels in an immediate form once, when her sister died suddenly. She cried at the funeral. Yet she didn't attempt to pamper anyone , she was just constantly doing stuff around. She was always critical of her SEI brother whom she considered kind of lazy, self-absorbed and unambitious. I assume she did care about him nonetheless. In her eyes he could have done much more with his life apart from watching lousy tv after work. She looked down on his lack of interest in books or other cultural stuff. That's what she valued. I think Fi would like to see their own values in people around and struggle for it, that's why they choose their relationships carefully based on affinity. This aspect from the description in particular was very obvious in Fi people I've known well : He has the ability to mould and perfect both his own and others' wishes. -> http://www.socionics.us/works/socion2.shtml.
    That is quite an accurate description of ESIs as I know them. One ting though: you say you've seen your mother emotional only once. That might actually be the explanation, that you have seen it only once. I have frequently heard Alphas describing ESIs as emotionless, cold people. I'm not going to defend ESIs, but I assure you ESIs express themselves emotionally all the time. It's a form of understated expression, but if you know what to look for, it becomes pretty obvious.

    A few years ago I and my SEI gf went to see the movie Norwegian Wood, based on the novel by Haruki Marakami. She hated the movie, it contained no emotion, she said. I said "what?" In my perception the movie almost exploded with emotion. Obviously not with Fe, but certainly a lot with Fi. I think that's one of the things we need to learn from Socionics: to realize, perhaps only on a rational level, that people from other quadras are not always what they seem. We need to learn to see them from a bigger perspective than just the framework of our our quadra values. Not that you need to accept these people in your life, far from it. It's about understanding why you'd better stay away from such people without passing a negative verdict on their type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Here's the explanation of difference between Fi and Fe

    Fi is empathy

    Fe is sympathy


    http://blazenfluff.com/the-power-of-...-and-sympathy/
    I don't think that's fair to Fe. Also, people with Fi in their ego block can behave in ways that invalidate the feelings of others as well. When Fe is being used by someone who's caring and respectful of your feelings, they can validate your feelings, perhaps saying something like (excuse the bad impersonation), "Aw, that guy is a jerky jerk face. Let's eat Ben & Jerry's from the carton and watch some old movies." They can also cheer you up, too, if you're ready to be cheered up.

    Also, I think Delta Fi is more about seeing the situation from your perspective and gently offering other other perspectives from which to see it while Gamma Fi is less about the perspectives and more about forcing a change.

    It seems like Fe and Te are the two most hated on information elements. Why. Whyyyyyyyyyyy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ypiret View Post
    Also, wouldn't the bear's actions in the video be Fe because it's dealing with emotions and not relationships like Fi?
    With Fi how you feel about something is the relationship to that thing/person/circumstance/event. "I like this" and "I don't like that" and "That always seemed weird to me" and "I like this because it reminds me of that" and so on.

    The bear was using Fi when he said "I've been there, and this is how I feel about that circumstance." The rest of what he did seemed more like Fe though. But after all, functions don't work in a vacuum.
    Last edited by Joy; 01-17-2014 at 08:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That is quite an accurate description of ESIs as I know them. One ting though: you say you've seen your mother emotional only once. That might actually be the explanation, that you have seen it only once. I have frequently heard Alphas describing ESIs as emotionless, cold people. I'm not going to defend ESIs, but I assure you ESIs express themselves emotionally all the time. It's a form of understated expression, but if you know what to look for, it becomes pretty obvious.

    A few years ago I and my SEI gf went to see the movie Norwegian Wood, based on the novel by Haruki Marakami. She hated the movie, it contained no emotion, she said. I said "what?" In my perception the movie almost exploded with emotion. Obviously not with Fe, but certainly a lot with Fi. I think that's one of the things we need to learn from Socionics: to realize, perhaps only on a rational level, that people from other quadras are not always what they seem. We need to learn to see them from a bigger perspective than just the framework of our our quadra values. Not that you need to accept these people in your life, far from it. It's about understanding why you'd better stay away from such people without passing a negative verdict on their type.
    I think a Fe ego might have found ESI cold ...to me it seemed just fine , it was a proof of strength, I didn't really look for expression of emotion. But I could always compare her ways to EIE sister. I'm sure Fi is understated and Te ego probably picks on those subtle signs easier....

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That is quite an accurate description of ESIs as I know them. One ting though: you say you've seen your mother emotional only once. That might actually be the explanation, that you have seen it only once. I have frequently heard Alphas describing ESIs as emotionless, cold people. I'm not going to defend ESIs, but I assure you ESIs express themselves emotionally all the time. It's a form of understated expression, but if you know what to look for, it becomes pretty obvious.

    A few years ago I and my SEI gf went to see the movie Norwegian Wood, based on the novel by Haruki Marakami. She hated the movie, it contained no emotion, she said. I said "what?" In my perception the movie almost exploded with emotion. Obviously not with Fe, but certainly a lot with Fi. I think that's one of the things we need to learn from Socionics: to realize, perhaps only on a rational level, that people from other quadras are not always what they seem. We need to learn to see them from a bigger perspective than just the framework of our our quadra values. Not that you need to accept these people in your life, far from it. It's about understanding why you'd better stay away from such people without passing a negative verdict on their type.
    And please don't misrepresent my words, Ti is a fan of precision and correctness. I said : I've only seen my ESI mother let out what she feels in an immediate form once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I don't think that's fair to Fe. Also, people with Fi in their ego block can behave in ways that invalidate the feelings of others as well. When Fe is being used by someone who's caring and respectful of your feelings, they can validate your feelings, perhaps saying something like (excuse the bad impersonation), "Aw, that guy is a jerky jerk face. Let's eat Ben & Jerry's from the carton and watch some old movies." They can also cheer you up, too, if you're ready to be cheered up.

    Also, I think Delta Fi is more about seeing the situation from your perspective and gently offering other other perspectives from which to see it while Gamma Fi is less about the perspectives and more about forcing a change.

    It seems like Fe and Te are the two most hated on information elements. Why. Whyyyyyyyyyyy.
    Fe is cute ...in its own way lol. But to my mind Fe sometimes validates feelings that shouldn't be validated just cause it comes easy to kiss ass instead of offering some actual solutions or suggestions for improvement. It tries to objectify people through their emotions or "collective background". If your bf left you after 4 years of making you believe he was into you, Fe is the one that starts saying "what a jerk, dear, all men are jerks, you're the sweetest thing on earth". Instead of perhaps shedding light on something in your own thinking that may have allowed you to believe in him or a future together. If Fe were only used for cheering people up energetically ...that would be different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    That is quite an accurate description of ESIs as I know them.
    Well, with ESIs, you have to actively do something to make them open up (usually some form of teasing). The good thing is that they're normally quite tolerant of these attempts.
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    So little Fi on t16t

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    Fe: Sympathy is "I know how you feel"; Fi: empathy is "I feel how you feel".

    It's from having seen that feeling before OR from having felt that feeling before as a character within the individual in him/herself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ankh View Post
    "just move on, and don't waste time thinking about it. Learn to not be so naive" (ESE) and "Don't blame yourself. you were just nice. Continue that way, and don't lose faith in nice, this is his loss, not yours, so he doesn't deserve any more of your feelings. Just stop caring about it". (ESE) I think they try to force me into giving up a hopeless situation, through feelings, sort of. To help me, I guess?

    The people with the kind of response you talk of, are mostly Fi and even Ti egos. Statics, in other words.


    So, Fe tries to dynamically move the situation, while Fi makes rules around it. Fe: "u screwed up, now move on". Fi: "this is horrible. what a bad person".

    In that sense, Fi can probably be seen as empathy more so than Fe, but Fe is not "sympathy" in contrast. Fe is dynamic, sort of moving things, more solution oriented in some way, and manipulates to move things in a desired direction.
    I haven't even bothered to get into that pseudo-distinction empathy / sympathy. From what you say some Fe egos do ....it's not very different from the validation I was talking about. And yes, it's a useful addition, Fe tries to move your "emotional state" towards something they have in mind. Fe base rather. But let's keep in mind the emotions a Fe ego will try to "move" you towards also depend on what they feel about you (and what they implicitly think you should feel) plus on their relationship with you. They are feelers, anyway.

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    ^^^^ I usually see Fe and Fi as judgement / decision-making instruments. I don´t think users actually feel more.... or dunno. The judgements of Fe and Fi egos will rather take into consideration subjective factors, which may include how they feel about a situation or person, the kind of person they see you as and so on.Joy´s explanation was spot on: with Fi how you feel about something is the relationship to that person/event. With Fe social (group) position or forms of "affiliation" also have a say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    With Fi how you feel about something is the relationship to that thing/person/circumstance/event. "I like this" and "I don't like that" and "That always seemed weird to me" and "I like this because it reminds me of that" and so on.

    The bear was using Fi when he said "I've been there, and this is how I feel about that circumstance." The rest of what he did seemed more like Fe though. But after all, functions don't work in a vacuum.
    Ah okay. I didn't really think about applying in it that way.

    Thank you for the clarification!

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post

    ETA: what I forgot to say about the cultural component, is that e.g. in a society that is dominated by Delta values, it is more likely for Betas to be "pushed" into the lower classes of society. Lets assume for now that lower classes are more verbally emotionally expressive, than it's easy to see why one would confuse Fe with emotional expressiveness. You could, for example also conclude that black people are more criminally inclined than white people, if you ignore that it's not being black that makes people criminal, but more often the social situation they are in.
    i haven´t even read all your stuff before ....but now. WTF.

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