Ni Hidden Agenda

[Amber]

What does Ni HA look like -- especially from the pov of Ni egos? You can hit hard, np

[Pookie]

Sitting quietly listening to someone connect the dots for you.

[Amber]

only IEI must have both strong Ni and strong Ti. I've heard it has something to do with not knowing exactly when it's time to act and going either too fast, or too slow. But thanks for your contribution, it was brilliant.

[Pookie]

I was just facetiously poking fun. Your initial question was a good example of Ni HA.

You know what dots you want connected(Se), but prefer to absorb information from the outside about how they connect(Ni).

[DaftPunk]

I was just facetiously poking fun. Your initial question was a good example of Ni HA.

You know what dots you want connected(Se), but prefer to absorb information from the outside about how they connect(Ni).

Was it not a better example of Ni Suggestive than Ni mobilizing (HA)?

[Pookie]

Was it not a better example of Ni Suggestive than Ni mobilizing (HA)?

Was it?

[DaftPunk]

Was it?

In my opinion yes.

Normally you like constant aid with your Suggestive. Often individuals see their Mobilizing as pretty strong so constant aid there can cause a slight feeling of insult.

There's a reason why your dual's Mobilizing is your Creative and not Base


Edit: But it was in general a good example of Ego / Super-ID interaction

[consentingadult]

Jezus is the cruel sausage

[Amber]

In my opinion yes.

Normally you like constant aid with your Suggestive. Often individuals see their Mobilizing as pretty strong so constant aid there can cause a slight feeling of insult.

There's a reason why your dual's Mobilizing is your Creative and not Base


Edit: But it was in general a good example of Ego / Super-ID interaction

What I was asking was a POV question ...I didn't take it as "ultimate objective reality", I was aiming at some Ni dom. or Ni creative's input. And this already has some implied Ni, in my very humble opinion. So far Expat's ideas , which I ran into in forum folders, make enough sense, so I'll stick to that interpretation. But yeah, I agree with Daft that you don't really need so much help with Mobilizing.

[DaftPunk]

According to Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda article:

"unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases"

Example: a female ESI friend on mine always knows where developments in society are headed. in 2008 she was certain the economic crisis would be gone in two years. in 2010 she started a job agency, at a time when unemployment rates started to rise, in a market that was not only saturated, but also had other people entering that market. She had been working before at a retired senior citizens temp agency, which ran quite well during better days, but she didn't want to recognize my sociological insights ("evidence"!) that explained why older people (55+) had difficulty finding full time jobs. Without providing any arguments, she simply said she was convinced there was a market, and that once the economy would recover in a year or so, there would be a huge need in the labor market for older people. Guess what really happened? I mean, I can't predict the future either, but come on, everyone with a bit of common sense could see this economic crisis wasn't going to go away soon.

Well, that sort of thing.

I value many contributions of Expat. But his short descriptions of the HA are so oversimplificated that they become useless for me. Also his short-phrases "to love", "to be loved" have caused more damage through missunderstanding than they were helpfull (IMO).

[Cuddly McFluffles]

According to Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda article:

"unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases"

*nods* He mentioned in another thread that xSI tends to act hastily because it's always "Must do something NOW"; they don't have the sense of timing that types are more prone to.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I value many contributions of Expat. But his short descriptions of the HA are so oversimplificated that they become useless for me. Also his short-phrases "to love", "to be loved" have caused more damage through missunderstanding than they were helpfull (IMO).

They aren't his; they are from Socionics.com.

[Amber]

I was just facetiously poking fun. Your initial question was a good example of Ni HA.

You know what dots you want connected(Se), but prefer to absorb information from the outside about how they connect(Ni).

I wonder how you'd change your arguments in this matter if I told you I'm a Gamma NT. My initial question didn't give you any proof of HA, it only stated such a thing. The type you inferred as mine led you in that direction.

[Pookie]

I value many contributions of Expat. But his short descriptions of the HA are so oversimplificated that they become useless for me. Also his short-phrases "to love", "to be loved" have caused more damage through missunderstanding than they were helpfull (IMO).

See thats an Area where i think Ni Thrives. There's very limited information, essentially just a dichotomy. In my head that gets stripped down to its roots almost immediately. To be loved, is to have that outside reassurance. To Love, is to have that feeling provoked within you.

As a broad sweeping statement, that is treated as mutable based on the context of a situation, i find those types of descriptions very useful.

[Pookie]

I wonder how you'd change your arguments in this matter if I told you I'm a Gamma NT. My initial question didn't give you any proof of HA, it only stated such a thing. The type you inferred as mine led you in that direction.

I wouldn't.

If i was/am wrong, i would evaluate what i thought initially and try to determine where the contradiction/misattribution in my own process was.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I wonder how you'd change your arguments in this matter if I told you I'm a Gamma NT.

I thought you typed SLE. o.0

[consentingadult]

I value many contributions of Expat. But his short descriptions of the HA are so oversimplificated that they become useless for me. Also his short-phrases "to love", "to be loved" have caused more damage through missunderstanding than they were helpfull (IMO).

Well, that's why I'm giving examples. BTW, to love and to be loved are not by Expat, but by Sergei Ganin.

*nods* He mentioned in another thread that xSI tends to act hastily because it's always "Must do something NOW"; they don't have the sense of timing that types are more prone to.

This is true, but there is more to it than that. e.g. LSEs and ESEs might also be inclined to ACT NOW, but for different reasons. xSEs have this inclination to do everything that needs to be done NOW without a perspective of how things fit together in relation to the dynamics of large-scope events, for which they seem to have a blind spot (hence Ni-PoLR). With xSIs, the inclination is linked to a vision on the dynamics of events. Often a wrong vision, but a vision nonetheless. Hence the Mobilizing-Ni: xSIs themselves think they are good at it.

[Amber]

I wouldn't.

If i was/am wrong, i would evaluate what i thought initially and try to determine where the contradiction/misattribution in my own process was.

that would be too late. Cause your "evaluations" would have already been proven BS. It would have been better if you could have come up with some real-life examples from your rich experience as a Ni ego, if you are one. But whatever.

[Pookie]

They could still be correct, even if the means of discovery are kooky. Sometimes you're right and when you try to rationalize why the rationalization comes out inaccurate, but that doesn't automatically mean the conclusion is wrong.

Also, sometimes you just have to stand with your conclusions. Taking personal responsibility for what you say is more likely to lead to corrective behavior. If i'm wrong, i should have to eat my words and the world should be able to see me do so. Backtracking in the face of consequence is how you avoid changing yourself for the better.

So being too late isn't an issue in my eyes. It's all about ultimately being more accurate down the road. An Ni approach to compensating for weak/valued Ti perhaps.

[DaftPunk]

They aren't his; they are from Socionics.com.

Well, that's why I'm giving examples. BTW, to love and to be loved are not by Expat, but by Sergei Ganin.

Ty

See thats an Area where i think Ni Thrives. There's very limited information, essentially just a dichotomy. In my head that gets stripped down to its roots almost immediately. To be loved, is to have that outside reassurance. To Love, is to have that feeling provoked within you.

As a broad sweeping statement, that is treated as mutable based on the context of a situation, i find those types of descriptions very useful.

Likely

[frog]

See thats an Area where i think Ni Thrives. There's very limited information, essentially just a dichotomy. In my head that gets stripped down to its roots almost immediately. To be loved, is to have that outside reassurance. To Love, is to have that feeling provoked within you.

As a broad sweeping statement, that is treated as mutable based on the context of a situation, i find those types of descriptions very useful.

My ideas naturelly tend to coalesce towards the simplest but most evocative image I can find. Maybe Ni encodes a hieroglyph and puts the burden of decoding on the listener. It can then resonate with a lot of interrelated personnal meanings for the listener.

In the wrong context, though, people are quite irritated when I am too vague and metaphoric, for example when I explain my software designs to my colleagues. Maybe this reaction is Ni PoLR. They stare at me and seem to say : "Ok, what's the POINT ?".


** EDIT : Sorry, the original question was about Ni-HA, but I talked about PoLR... **

For example, not long ago I explained with much enthousiasm how our new database reminded me of the Roman Empire with its two consuls, the senate, the provinces, etc. To my great disapointment, the magnificent allegory was welcomed quite coldly...

[frog]

Ok, I think I got one!

Conspiracy theories ? Are they a manifestation of Ni HA ?

[frog]

Being drawn to gurus and sect leaders is probably a Ni-HA tendency. Or being inspired by people with vision or who draw attention to meaningful goals or causes.

[FDG]

I wouldn't put too much stock in this concept as you're learning socionics. At first, it's better if you concentrate on the base and creative functions as explanation of what people do in their daily life.

Specifically, many descriptions of Ni as hidden agenda seem to mostly describe a combination of low intelligence and poor education.

The way I personally prefer to understand the concept of "Ni hidden agenda" is a request for Ni creative (which is going to be different if given by EIEs or LIEs). So, a request for either a quick synthesis of potential trends in the objective world, in order to act upon them and reap material profits to share among your community (this would be LIE-ESI), or a request for an idiosyncratic position which can potentially be supported by the group/society of reference, in order to create a new social system based on these "unexplored wishes" (this would be EIE-LSI).

Notice that "normal people" are generally busy completing a large number of tasks related to their survival, which can be executed with basic human skills that go beyond functional orientations. Thus you won't see the realization of "hidden agendas" or "creative functions" in each specific action of each specific person.

[consentingadult]

I don't know any XSIs who are into those - from my experience it's Ne valuers who tend to be into conspiracy theories, particularly Alphas.

True. Well less rounded xSIs are more into things such as scapegoating. They don't see conspiracies everywhere, they just see bad people everywhere

[Iris]

In the wrong context, though, people are quite irritated when I am too vague and metaphoric, for example when I explain my software designs to my colleagues. Maybe this reaction is Ni PoLR. They stare at me and seem to say : "Ok, what's the POINT ?".

For example, not long ago I explained with much enthousiasm how our new database reminded me of the Roman Empire with its two consuls, the senate, the provinces, etc. To my great disapointment, the magnificent allegory was welcomed quite coldly...

Yes, it is very deflating when that happens.

[consentingadult]

I wouldn't put too much stock in this concept as you're learning socionics. At first, it's better if you concentrate on the base and creative functions as explanation of what people do in their daily life.

Specifically, many descriptions of Ni as hidden agenda seem to mostly describe a combination of low intelligence and poor education.

The way I personally prefer to understand the concept of "Ni hidden agenda" is a request for Ni creative (which is going to be different if given by EIEs or LIEs). So, a request for either a quick synthesis of potential trends in the objective world, in order to act upon them and reap material profits to share among your community (this would be LIE-ESI), or a request for an idiosyncratic position which can potentially be supported by the group/society of reference, in order to create a new social system based on these "unexplored wishes" (this would be EIE-LSI).

Notice that "normal people" are generally busy completing a large number of tasks related to their survival, which can be executed with basic human skills that go beyond functional orientations. Thus you won't see the realization of "hidden agendas" or "creative functions" in each specific action of each specific person.

It is true that the Mobilizing function manifest itself on different levels, but understanding of the Mobilizing Function in its more neurotic and pathological, i.e. blow-up manifestations is a precondition to understanding it on a healthy level, where it manifests itself in much more subtle, and thus less easily detectable ways:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-function.html

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-function.html

[Saberstorm]

I think it should look like a person who becomes easily honored by complements about how they are "in role" - they use their Ni to take on the airs of others expectations, to place themselves in a larger context ... I dunno, I explained this wrong.