Chidlike / Caring descriptions question

[Marietta]

I came across yet another description of sexual attitudes and this seems like sth new:

' Careful
- Interact as if they they are in control but not in aggressive way. This type always acts in a caring way and expect the partner to accept this care without rebellion
- Has an openly "patronizing" subtype and a subtype that applies "care" indirectly'

Which subtypes of caregivers would be described as which here?

Infantile
- Can be openly needy for loving and care
- On the other hand can be openly rebellious against care and need a lot of "right kind of" attention'


and what about the supposed 'rebeliousness against care' ? how do you think it plays out in Delta and Alpha?

source:
http://similarminds.com/forums/viewt...0b376aa214d2e4

[Kim]

Why would an Infantile reject care? When it's controlling and limits their freedom. Infantiles are similar to children in that they need room to play. They need freedom to explore, to try new things, to form new ideas and possibilities. If they feel care is too threatening or controlling, and limits them, they'll get defensive and reject it.

As an example, the same EII one time became attached to a dying turtle. It wasn't being taken care of by its owners at all, living in filthy conditions, and had already lost its eyesight due to a bacterial infection. She wanted to drive 5 hours on the weekend to save it, to bring it to a rescue shelter who could look after it and nurture it. I abruptly advised this would be a waste of time. (Millions of animals are born each day, and millions die each day, it's part of life) I got in big trouble for this. She got very defensive and ultimately decide to ignore my advice and attempt to save the turtle anyway.

In this example, The Te/Si caregiving, not wasting 5 hours and inconvenience/cost of gas of driving to save one turtle, to help her be more relaxed and less stressed, was rejected, since it interfered with her Fi/Ne 'Humanist' freedom of wanting to save the turtle. This was seen as too controlling because it was going to change her path. The help of clearing her car was embraced because it assisted her in her path. In this manner, Caregivers can't be controlling in their care, but the care must assist the Infantile in their pursuits.

Also, both EIIs & IEEs, unconsciously valuing Te, seem to take some part of their careers/jobs very seriously. They may reject care/help when it interferes with their credibility - they secretly have strong ambition & drive to be the best at something. They also are searching for their work to make a positive impact in the world - Delta NFs who haven't yet found something to devote themselves to in order to make an impact seem to be disillusioned and distraught, more than other types. If you try to 'help' a Delta NF in their work, it may rejected if they think it may be condescending, or might be saying they're not strong enough/independent enough to do it on their own. Basically, you want to think of the stubborn child who's trying to grow up and show what a 'big kid' they're becoming.

Except for all the children analogies (ironic that you patronize right after you say that delta nfs do not like condescension ), which irritated me, spot on. Saved me a post.

Oh, and no offense, but let us hope that nobody will advice to not drive you to the hospital because there are so many people being born and dying every day. I think I would have dumped you for that.

PS: What happened to the turtle?

[Beautiful sky]

Well, I think I started world dual war 1 when I suggested that I felt uncared for by a recent encounter LOL

[Kim]

I never asked. I assumed it made a difference in the world. Well if not the world, at least it made a difference to that turtle.

Turtles.png

[Beautiful sky]

There was a big snowstorm in my area the other night. The girl I'm dating, whom I believe to be EII, worked that night anyway. To be a good boyfriend, I decided to brave the weather and drive/slide over to her work to visit her, and to clear the snow & ice off her car afterwards.

I knew she would appreciate my clearing the snow & ice off her car. However, she's really nice, accommodating, and nurturing toward me, and I knew she would tell me I didn't have to, but she'd appreciate it anyway. Sure enough, she said I didn't have to do that, and at one point even said 'you should be at home wrapped up warm in a blanket' (She's got a big mother instinct). After she got home though, she texted me that she appreciated it and said 'you're awesome'.

Marietta, I would agree with the descriptions from the source you linked that says ESTj/ISTp have confidence that they know what is best for their partners, while ENFp/INFj are "pseudocaregivers". While "Caregiver" is typically associated with Si, it seems to be manifested in Delta, with the focus on Te/Fi, with more value by the Ne egos on the distance of the relationship and value of the relationship, so they try to be caring/nurturing as well. In Alpha, with the focus on Ti/Fe, this seems to be more of an intellectual desire for freedom, in the exciting potential of new ideas and possibilities.

Why would an Infantile reject care? When it's controlling and limits their freedom. Infantiles are similar to children in that they need room to play. They need freedom to explore, to try new things, to form new ideas and possibilities. If they feel care is too threatening or controlling, and limits them, they'll get defensive and reject it.

As an example, the same EII one time became attached to a dying turtle. It wasn't being taken care of by its owners at all, living in filthy conditions, and had already lost its eyesight due to a bacterial infection. She wanted to drive 5 hours on the weekend to save it, to bring it to a rescue shelter who could look after it and nurture it. I abruptly advised this would be a waste of time. (Millions of animals are born each day, and millions die each day, it's part of life) I got in big trouble for this. She got very defensive and ultimately decide to ignore my advice and attempt to save the turtle anyway.

In this example, The Te/Si caregiving, not wasting 5 hours and inconvenience/cost of gas of driving to save one turtle, to help her be more relaxed and less stressed, was rejected, since it interfered with her Fi/Ne 'Humanist' freedom of wanting to save the turtle. This was seen as too controlling because it was going to change her path. The help of clearing her car was embraced because it assisted her in her path. In this manner, Caregivers can't be controlling in their care, but the care must assist the Infantile in their pursuits.

Also, both EIIs & IEEs, unconsciously valuing Te, seem to take some part of their careers/jobs very seriously. They may reject care/help when it interferes with their credibility - they secretly have strong ambition & drive to be the best at something. They also are searching for their work to make a positive impact in the world - Delta NFs who haven't yet found something to devote themselves to in order to make an impact seem to be disillusioned and distraught, more than other types. If you try to 'help' a Delta NF in their work, it may rejected if they think it may be condescending, or might be saying they're not strong enough/independent enough to do it on their own. Basically, you want to think of the stubborn child who's trying to grow up and show what a 'big kid' they're becoming.

great post

[Eliza Thomason]

I came across yet another description of sexual attitudes and this seems like sth new:

' Careful
- Interact as if they they are in control but not in aggressive way. This type always acts in a caring way and expect the partner to accept this care without rebellion
- Has an openly "patronizing" subtype and a subtype that applies "care" indirectly'

Which subtypes of caregivers would be described as which here?

Infantile
- Can be openly needy for loving and care
- On the other hand can be openly rebellious against care and need a lot of "right kind of" attention'


and what about the supposed 'rebeliousness against care' ? how do you think it plays out in Delta and Alpha?

...

Example of IEE (me) rebelling from SLI's care, from real life, this week.

SLI is here (lives out of town) on a longer visit and we are in the homestretch of living "like brother and sister" till we marry in April which is rather very difficult at times, but it is what we are both committed to.

We were being lazy this week which degenerated into a couple of true "Uncle Albert" days ("we're so sorry... but we haven't done a bloody thing all day...") I asked him to remind us to get us going on something tomorrow but warned him, "Be careful, I don't always like being told what to do."

So next day after a lazy morning together hanging out after breakfast he gets busy on something needing done and he reminds me what I was going to start, right when I am content procrastinating. I rouse myself from what I am doing and then instead go start procrastinating on a Sudoko puzzle. After a bit he reminds me again. But I want to take my sweet time and don't want to be reminded, so, I get up and I start flirting with him, hands running all over his shirt, and slipping under it ("Skin! You're so warm!"), sliding into comfortable melty embraces against him, and he says when I get this way I give him that "look" which he especially likes (I think its a type of inviting look) and I think he likes that look akin to how his touch moves me like magic. So I am completely distracting him from his work with these embrace flirtations that are hard to ignore, which is fun because I can. I guess its to arouse him which is in fact pointless and kind of mean because we can't go anywhere with that. But I know its kind of mean, and he knows I am getting him back for nagging me. But it amuses him. So I guess that's childlike teasing and rebellion.

.. Then to tease him further later I will complain that I hardly got anything done today and its all his fault for chasing me and ravishing me!

Well we had to get unstuck from our holiday laziness. All that work before Christmas and we relaxed now. We keep Christmas through Epiphany so we just enjoyed the decorated house. We did get unstuck. But another time when he reminded me to get busy I stomped his bare foot (not hard, just dramatically) with mine. But I turned and started the work anyway. Because I wasn't really mad.

[Beautiful sky]

Example of IEE (me) rebelling from SLI's care, from real life, this week.

SLI is here (lives out of town) on a longer visit and we are in the homestretch of living "like brother and sister" till we marry in April which is rather very difficult at times, but it is what we are both committed to.

We were being lazy this week which degenerated into a couple of true "Uncle Albert" days ("we're so sorry... but we haven't done a bloody thing all day...") I asked him to remind us to get us going on something tomorrow but warned him, "Be careful, I don't always like being told what to do."

So next day after a lazy morning together hanging out after breakfast he gets busy on something needing done and he reminds me what I was going to start, right when I am content procrastinating. I rouse myself from what I am doing and then instead go start procrastinating on a Sudoko puzzle. After a bit he reminds me again. But I want to take my sweet time and don't want to be reminded, so, I get up and I start flirting with him, hands running all over his shirt, and slipping under it ("Skin! You're so warm!"), sliding into comfortable melty embraces against him, and he says when I get this way I give him that "look" which he especially likes (I think its a type of inviting look) and I think he likes that look akin to how his touch moves me like magic. So I am completely distracting him from his work with these embrace flirtations that are hard to ignore, which is fun because I can. I guess its to arouse him which is in fact pointless and kind of mean because we can't go anywhere with that. But I know its kind of mean, and he knows I am getting him back for nagging me. But it amuses him. So I guess that's childlike teasing and rebellion.

.. Then to tease him further later I will complain that I hardly got anything done today and its all his fault for chasing me and ravishing me!

Well we had to get unstuck from our holiday laziness. All that work before Christmas and we relaxed now. We keep Christmas through Epiphany so we just enjoyed the decorated house. We did get unstuck. But another time when he reminded me to get busy I stomped his bare foot (not hard, just dramatically) with mine. But I turned and started the work anyway. Because I wasn't really mad.

That was a very good post. I don't think Marietta frequents here often. Hi friend How has life treated you?

[Eliza Thomason]

That was a very good post. I don't think Marietta frequents here often. Hi friend How has life treated you?

Hi Marista! Thank you, I am glad you liked my little SLI moment. I am happy because SLI is here and life is better when we are together. He is snoring near me on the couch at this very moment. I love him being near. I felt like reading and typing after we watched the Downton Abbey premier tonight , when I should have fed the cat and gone to bed. I am procrastinating bed, which must needs be alone. But I do not expect to get a call to sub tomorrow as teachers are not supposed to take the first day off after vacation so its not likely. I will be sorry if I do get a call; best to work with a good night's sleep....

Did you have a nice Christmas?

I have a new favorite Christmas hymn, "Lo, How a Rose ere blooming". I love the music and I love the words. They make my heart swell. I don't know why we don't hear this lovely hymn more. It was sung at my parish this season, and the church was so beautifully decorated with evergreens and candles, it was breathtaking...

[Eliza Thomason]

Lo, how a Rose e’er blooming from tender stem hath sprung!
Of Jesse’s lineage coming, as men of old have sung.
It came, a floweret bright, amid the cold of winter,
When half spent was the night.

Isaiah ’twas foretold it, the Rose I have in mind;
With Mary we behold it, the virgin mother kind.
To show God’s love aright, she bore to men a Savior,
When half spent was the night.

The shepherds heard the story proclaimed by angels bright,
How Christ, the Lord of glory was born on earth this night.
To Bethlehem they sped and in the manger found Him,
As angel heralds said.

This Flower, whose fragrance tender with sweetness fills the air,
Dispels with glorious splendor the darkness everywhere;
True Man, yet very God, from sin and death He saves us,
And lightens every load.

O Savior, Child of Mary, who felt our human woe,
O Savior, King of glory, who dost our weakness know;
Bring us at length we pray, to the bright courts of Heaven,
And to the endless day!

[Amber]

An ILE friend of mine was "in love" with a dude , probably her a bit more into him than the other way round, since she was chasing him. But at the same time she was repelled by the way he tried to get close to her physically. She found him too aggressive, while she says she can only get to that stage with a guy if the guy "tries it the right way". I didn't know what to make of it when she told me that, thought she was fucked -up in the head or maybe still a virgin . After I got into Socionics I figured she was dealing with someone looking for an Aggressor - Victim dynamic while she was an Infantile --- not any kind of, but especially Si suggestive. No idea what type the dude was. It didn't work, she ended up heart-broken cause she couldn't read him properly (Fi polr) and and they kept zig-zaging when trying to date like adults. Now said ILE friend is in a relationship (over 2 years) with a SEI she couldn't stand at first, let alone love. She gradually got used to him and "learned to love him" (her words -- in my books such thing doesn't exist , so ...). They get along really fine socially and domestically. Actually it's nice to see the rebellious and hard to fasten ILE chick I used to know turn into a "normal gf".

[Eliza Thomason]

An ILE friend of mine was "in love" with a dude , probably her a bit more into him than the other way round, since she was chasing him. But at the same time she was repelled by the way he tried to get close to her physically. She found him too aggressive, while she says she can only get to that stage with a guy if the guy "tries it the right way". I didn't know what to make of it when she told me that, thought she was fucked -up in the head or maybe still a virgin . After I got into Socionics I figured she was dealing with someone looking for an Aggressor - Victim dynamic while she was an Infantile --- not any kind of, but especially Si suggestive. No idea what type the dude was. It didn't work, she ended up heart-broken cause she couldn't read him properly (Fi polr) and and they kept zig-zaging when trying to date like adults. Now said ILE friend is in a relationship (over 2 years) with a SEI she couldn't stand at first, let alone love. She gradually got used to him and "learned to love him" (her words -- in my books such thing doesn't exist , so ...). They get along really fine socially and domestically. Actually it's nice to see the rebellious and hard to fasten ILE chick I used to know turn into a "normal gf".

Yes. I agree, when was probably with an incompatible romance type and wasn't seeing having romance if she wasn't feeling it. I reflected on my dating years after I learned Gulenko types and I know that oftentimes I was attracted to Aggressors because I liked their boldness, since I was more shy then. But childlike flirtations backfired when they responded aggressively, which I sometimes found frightening, and not "caring" enough.

[Kupava]

What an interesting thread! I think that those with suggestive Si are less nitpicky about how others care for them than those with activating Si because the former ones have a one dimensional Si that can differentiate between 'care' and 'no care' or 'good care' and 'bad care,' but not much more than that. The two dimensional activating Si feels more and therefore can also differentiate between the kind of care it does and doesn't like. Think about the levels of functions linked to different stages of human development according to Ericsson's theory, with suggestive function representing the development level of an infant and activating function representing that of a toddler (up to 3 years old). An infant will accept any kind of care, the more the better, and will be happy to be smothered in kisses. A toddler still needs a lot of care but there are things they can do on their own. If you are overly helpful, they will protest because there are things they want to do by themselves. They won't let you kiss them or hold them as much as you want to but will still be happy to be hugged and kissed a lot.

[mu4]

What an interesting thread! I think that those with suggestive Si are less nitpicky about how others care for them than those with activating Si because the former ones have a one dimensional Si that can differentiate between 'care' and 'no care' or 'good care' and 'bad care,' but not much more than that. The two dimensional activating Si feels more and therefore can also differentiate between the kind of care it does and doesn't like. Think about the levels of functions linked to different stages of human development according to Ericsson's theory, with suggestive function representing the development level of an infant and activating function representing that of a toddler (up to 3 years old). An infant will accept any kind of care, the more the better, and will be happy to be smothered in kisses. A toddler still needs a lot of care but there are things they can do on their own. If you are overly helpful, they will protest because there are things they want to do by themselves. They won't let you kiss them or hold them as much as you want to but will still be happy to be hugged and kissed a lot.

Evaluatory Functions maybe less discerning in 4th and 5th but are more strongly judgemental.

Imo its more nitpicky, and any negative feedback is going to illicit some response. 4d si types are better equipped to deal. My palette is quite sensitive and I have very discerning tastes despite not knowing how things are done. Bad sensory experiences in food and other areas is sometimes very offensive to me. I am a brutal critic sometimes.

ILE and IEE are often gourmands and hedonistic in this area. For example, one of the best mixologists/soms in the US is imo IEE.

The LII and EII I have met are simultaneously more squeamish? and more rigid about this while also not noticing some negative characteristics. Maybe its politrness. I rare fail to note something off about Si things.

[mu4]

As these characterized by irrational functions, once rational functions are taken into account and function blocking taken into account there are quite a bit of difference.

[Kupava]

Evaluatory Functions maybe less discerning in 4th and 5th but are more strongly judgemental.

Imo its more nitpicky, and any negative feedback is going to illicit some response. 4d si types are better equipped to deal. My palette is quite sensitive and I have very discerning tastes despite not knowing how things are done. Bad sensory experiences in food and other areas is sometimes very offensive to me. I am a brutal critic sometimes.

ILE and IEE are often gourmands and hedonistic in this area. For example, one of the best mixologists/soms in the US is imo IEE.

The LII and EII I have met are simultaneously more squeamish? and more rigid about this while also not noticing some negative characteristics. Maybe its politrness. I rare fail to note something off about Si things.

Just had dinner with my husband, a LII. He bought some minced meat for bolognaise sauce and they must have slipped him lamb instead of veal. I noticed the smell right away; he never did. Not when I was frying it, not when he was eating it. But you can imagine the difference between lamb and veal. And yet he sometimes picks up on the faintest of bad smells whereas I need more of it to even notice it. However, I think it has more to do with a different typology, not socionics. Have you ever heard of psychosophy or psyche-yoga? (It goes by two names with the latter one being more popular).

[mu4]

Just had dinner with my husband, a LII. He bought some minced meat for bolognaise sauce and they must have slipped him lamb instead of veal. I noticed the smell right away; he never did. Not when I was frying it, not when he was eating it. But you can imagine the difference between lamb and veal. And yet he sometimes picks up on the faintest of bad smells whereas I need more of it to even notice it. However, I think it has more to do with a different typology, not socionics. Have you ever heard of psychosophy or psyche-yoga? (It goes by two names with the latter one being more popular).

I don't really know what psychosophy or psyche-yoga, I tend to not take typologies outside of socionics very seriously and typology in generally not very seriously. I view socionics as more a explanatory model with the typology component as possible/normative expression of information metabolism. I've always viewed sociotypes as possible expressions of humanity via Model A, if not the vast majority of humanity. Some individuals may have minds that have a different organizational structure and/or various physical and or mental damage which creates novel structures. However the mechanics of IM and IE and information processing would apply in these minds but produce somewhat different results.

I think some descriptions have LII viewing freshness as a very important characteristic, however not all food is best at the freshest, many food require ripening or fermentation and transformation before it is best. Like aging a piece of meat or fish. IMO freshness can also be a PolR thing in this area and not a thing, as may not be a subjective oriented experience.