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Thread: Mirror & Activity better than Duality?

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    Default Mirror & Activity better than Duality?

    Why do I seem to get much better along with my Mirror or my Identity than with duals? Even Activity rocks my boat really well, with an intriguing difference, it takes a while to get it all about where they're coming from.

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    NO

    SLI make me feel lazy, like they want me to relax, as if I was their Ep temperament dual except I'm not and their efforts are wasted on me because that's what SLI is programmed to do. I get agitated when there's no WORK

    I eat better, look better, live so much better with my dual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    NO

    SLI make me feel lazy, like they want me to relax, as if I was their Ep temperament dual except I'm not and their efforts are wasted on me because that's what SLI is programmed to do. I get agitated when there's no WORK

    I eat better, look better, live so much better with my dual.
    I haven't spent so much time with Dual to notice all this, never had an actual relationship with one. At first sight it seems me and the rest have much more to talk about. I've come across some duals and indeed they look like they 're always on the move, they like engaged work, heading somewhere, have some plans. From this pov I'm sure I prefer Rationality. But in discussions with friends and stuff it appeared I got along better with Mirror and Activity partners. It doesn't seem we live in separate worlds.
    Last edited by Amber; 01-03-2014 at 10:23 PM.

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    Mirror is cool, but gets boring- we run out of things to say after a while. Would never date one. I'm almost never attracted to SF men. Also, my mirrors tend to have a lot of energy and run around neurotically, and I'm usually like "why?"

    Activity can feel awesome, and I was a huge proponent of this in the past. But I don't know, having been dualized, I cannot help but now think I can only go for dual. It's pretty stupid. But it's so much easier- and the resonance you get in activity is nothing like the weird mind-melding "you have changed my life and made me realize this thing that I didn't think about/ know" thing you get sometimes with duality (when it works.)

    Sometimes duality is not all that and it just feels more convenient (easier to get shit done on a dual's rhythm). Other times it is and it spoils you a bit. It's like an addiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Mirror is cool, but gets boring- we run out of things to say after a while. Would never date one. I'm almost never attracted to SF men. Also, my mirrors tend to have a lot of energy and run around neurotically, and I'm usually like "why?"

    Activity can feel awesome, and I was a huge proponent of this in the past. But I don't know, having been dualized, I cannot help but now think I can only go for dual. It's pretty stupid. But it's so much easier- and the resonance you get in activity is nothing like the weird mind-melding "you have changed my life and made me realize this thing that I didn't think about/ know" thing you get sometimes with duality (when it works.)

    Sometimes duality is not all that and it just feels more convenient (easier to get shit done on a dual's rhythm). Other times it is and it spoils you a bit. It's like an addiction.
    Many of my friends are mirror and identities. So I'm talking about things outside dating, where I guess , if it comes up, boredom is not such a big deal. I 've only had a relationship with an Activity and it was cool and unexpected. But I grew up with a dual sister so maybe I don't notice any significant psychological effect when meeting new duals. Or I just didn't click with those I've bumped into. On this forum when talking about duality I have the impression people are in possession of a secret that I don't have...

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    I've never had any attraction whatsoever to ENFjs except for one or two isolated cases. They just don't seem very sensual. ISTjs, on the other hand, are the most immediately sexually activating type for me in the Socion. Oddly enough, I've never really felt much of a desire to get close to an ESTp in any way, except for in the sexual sense with the most physically attractive guys. I get along well with some ENFjs, personally. Usually the quieter ones who are more observant tend to be less judgmental. Overall, I think I've made a choice to abstain from relationships. There was a time a year ago when I was much more hopeful. But that has since diminished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ananke View Post
    Most of them have not even dated another human being, and have absolutely no duality experience. It is religious. Or hopeful at best. Remember how you thought women were the angels of earth when 14? It's that kinda thing.
    WAIT, WHAT??? THEY'RE NOT???!!

    **runs off crying in a corner**

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Why do I seem to get much better along with my Mirror or my Identity than with duals? Even Activity rocks my boat really well, with an intriguing difference, it takes a while to get it all about where they're coming from.
    What is it about your relationship with your duals that makes you not get along with them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Filambee View Post
    What is it about your relationship with your duals that makes you not get along with them?
    ^^^^it lies above. If you´re fine with being energized by the duals´ base function , but you don´t objectively appreciate how they process info and what they do , does it mean you´re mistyped ...? Or just fuck Socionics.

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    It does feel like I superficially have nothing in common with my duals at first (no common hobbies, completely inverted social lives), but after a while the shared life values and reasoning come through.

    I also find it harder to talk to Js than other Ps - it's like we don't obey the same rules of conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Mirror is cool, but gets boring- we run out of things to say after a while. Would never date one. I'm almost never attracted to SF men. Also, my mirrors tend to have a lot of energy and run around neurotically, and I'm usually like "why?"

    Activity can feel awesome, and I was a huge proponent of this in the past. But I don't know, having been dualized, I cannot help but now think I can only go for dual. It's pretty stupid. But it's so much easier- and the resonance you get in activity is nothing like the weird mind-melding "you have changed my life and made me realize this thing that I didn't think about/ know" thing you get sometimes with duality (when it works.)

    Sometimes duality is not all that and it just feels more convenient (easier to get shit done on a dual's rhythm). Other times it is and it spoils you a bit. It's like an addiction.
    Are you under the mistaken assumption that SF men are not masculant? You probably misdiagnose many of them if that is the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    It does feel like I superficially have nothing in common with my duals at first (no common hobbies, completely inverted social lives), but after a while the shared life values and reasoning come through.

    I also find it harder to talk to Js than other Ps - it's like we don't obey the same rules of conversation.
    really ?? I find that talk is very easy, even enjoyable to even say but working together is another story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Are you under the mistaken assumption that SF men are not masculant? You probably misdiagnose many of them if that is the case.
    Not in the least. I just severely dislike how... sensory they feel. Their physical presence feels too heavy to me. Mixed with the ethical, which is like a kind of cloying softness (alpha) or self-enclosed thickness (gamma).

    NT feels more pure.

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    There's communication issues that pop up when talking with Rationals. Like, the words i say are not the words they hear. That can become agitating over time. But, i would say Mirror and Activity has less of that conflict that any of the rationals/irrational intertypes.

    It's really just about what you're looking for out of someone. Understand that, and you'll know what you're attracted to.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Why do I seem to get much better along with my Mirror or my Identity than with duals? Even Activity rocks my boat really well, with an intriguing difference, it takes a while to get it all about where they're coming from.
    With mirror and activity, there is at least one area of life that you share in common. Because of this, there is an ease of communication that you won't find with your dual, whose strengths are in a completely different domain from your own. Also, your activator considers your DS / Activation function to be an absolute necessity, because it is a protection against the PoLR of your mirror. So he gives you lots of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    Not in the least. I just severely dislike how... sensory they feel. Their physical presence feels too heavy to me. Mixed with the ethical, which is like a kind of cloying softness (alpha) or self-enclosed thickness (gamma).

    NT feels more pure.
    I find that they are gammas that have the kind of cloying softness you talk about as well as alphas who have a self-enclosed thickness that you describe. Gulenko has been saying that this was the exact reason for the DCNH system which explains why quadra difference aren't really so clean. Some dual subtypes are actually conflictors and very difficult to get along with, Gulenko now frequently says duality bliss is a lie, some duals are just not compartible and its simply a fact, this isn't about healthiness of a person, its just that some people are not compartible.

    And mutually some conflictors are actually very pleasant and exactly dual like, which gulenko has been saying that SEE-Harmozing ''S'' subtype is more alpha caregiver like and he finds them very compartible as he is a LII Creative ''I'' subtype. Equally with me personally as I'm an ILI Creative ''I'' subtype, my romance is more infantile than victim so I it explains why I'm actually bewildered by the standard conflict relations. And actually conversely I don't get along well with gamma aggressors, we just have a compartible rhythm, well with the SEE as irrationals, but there is just no attraction between us. I had a very difficult time with one SEE guy for that very fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I find that they are gammas that have the kind of cloying softness you talk about as well as alphas who have a self-enclosed thickness that you describe. Gulenko has been saying that this was the exact reason for the DCNH system which explains why quadra difference aren't really so clean. Some dual subtypes are actually conflictors and very difficult to get along with, Gulenko now frequently says duality bliss is a lie, some duals are just not compartible and its simply a fact, this isn't about healthiness of a person, its just that some people are not compartible.

    And mutually some conflictors are actually very pleasant and exactly dual like, which gulenko has been saying that SEE-Harmozing ''S'' subtype is more alpha caregiver like and he finds them very compartible as he is a LII Creative ''I'' subtype. Equally with me personally as I'm an ILI Creative ''I'' subtype, my romance is more infantile than victim so I it explains why I'm actually bewildered by the standard conflict relations. And actually conversely I don't get along well with gamma aggressors, we just have a compartible rhythm, well with the SEE as irrationals, but there is just no attraction between us. I had a very difficult time with one SEE guy for that very fact.
    You seem to give a lot of credit to DCHN. I found that enneagrams (+instincts) have a heavy word in compatibility, given the kind of life experiences and rhythm they can engender. Or common fixes in the tritype. I honestly think the dchn interferes too much with "normal" typing by functions (probably also with reinin dichotomies). Maybe its purposes aren't bad per se, but when it comes to actually putting people in those sub-boxes, many boundaries get blurred if you go by them. How are you supposed to tell apart ILI-N from ESI-H, for example. In their IM, I mean.
    Last edited by Amber; 01-22-2014 at 05:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    when it comes to actually putting people in those sub-boxes, many boundaries get blurred if you go by them. How are you supposed to tell apart ILI-N from ESI-H, for example. In their IM, I mean.
    Telling them apart doesn't seem very complicated at all.

    1. Temperament, which is usually very apparent. A Harmonizing IJ is going to appear different than a Normalizing IP. IP will always have that latent receptive quality, even if the Normalizing preference causes them to finalize or finish "stuff" more than a typical IP. And Vice Versa, That IJ still have that IJ stiffness in their beliefs, but in comparison to a N-IJ they appear yielding.
    2. ILI-N would have accentuated Ti + Heavy Te development, Whereas ESI-H accentuates Si + Heavy Se development.
    3. In this case, the two people would differ from the average person of their archtype in their superior handling of their demonstrative function. But still, the form that the element is expressed is in relation to that function. That, if understood, can also help clear confusion.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    In my own experience with typology, people expand on theory when they haven't understood the phenomena or observed enough to see what's really going on. I can't see DCNH in people. Until I can, I'm going to regard it as a pointless theoretical construct. Most of typology is so qualitative that it can't be split into categories. People try to explain negative interactions between positive relations by making greater sub-divisions, but really people just don't want to admit that sometimes they just don't get along. Beyond basic subtype, I really don't see any divisions other than those Enneagram-related ones.
    Last edited by Eldanen; 01-22-2014 at 09:04 PM.

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    Right now I'm thinking things are not a matter of better, just different? I mean ofcourse, in general certain types are going to "feel" better in general but individuals come in all varieties. How duals are described as being the most comfortable long term relationship is true, but there can be a person of a type you can be attracted to and can help you discover something new or to help you if you're going through something, etc. Thing is, I find that people generally don't make good choices in life. They go on a whim, on how they think a person makes them feel when its really them projecting feelings or the other person's facade that lures them in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    You seem to give a lot of credit to DCHN. I found that enneagrams (+instincts) have a heavy word in compatibility, given the kind of life experiences and rhythm they can engender. Or common fixes in the tritype. I honestly think the dchn interferes too much with "normal" typing by functions (probably also with reinin dichotomies). Maybe its purposes aren't bad per se, but when it comes to actually putting people in those sub-boxes, many boundaries get blurred if you go by them. How are you supposed to tell apart ILI-N from ESI-H, for example. In their IM, I mean.
    The more I look at enneagram the more I see holes in it generally, similar minds had an interesting article on the topic, the only bit of Enneagram I like is the instincts since I've find out that as an Sx, I bond well with other sx, but less so with so and sp. even though I know that people are more complicated than that so I always take any theory with a grain of salt, but so far I like DCNH's since the limited parts it analyses are quite consistent. Also I've realized that the version Gulenko has is far more advanced that the elementary one in english. I thought I was ILI TI, but ILI Ne became the right diagnosis, there are intricacies that have to be understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    In my own experience with typology, people expand on theory when they haven't understood the phenomena or observed enough to see what's really going on. I can't see DCNH in people. Until I can, I'm going to regard it as a pointless theoretical construct. Most of typology is so qualitative that it can't be split into categories. People try to explain negative interactions between positive relations by making greater sub-divisions, but really people just don't want to admit that sometimes they just don't get along. Beyond basic subtype, I really don't see any divisions other than those Enneagram-related ones.
    Learn Russian in order to appreciate socionics, the stuff in Engish is mostly rubbish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Learn Russian in order to appreciate socionics, the stuff in Engish is mostly rubbish
    Unfortunately Russian psychology/sociology/philosophy and various other studies is much weaker than what one can attain in English at the moment. The Russians need to learn English, not the other way around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I find that they are gammas that have the kind of cloying softness you talk about as well as alphas who have a self-enclosed thickness that you describe. Gulenko has been saying that this was the exact reason for the DCNH system which explains why quadra difference aren't really so clean. Some dual subtypes are actually conflictors and very difficult to get along with, Gulenko now frequently says duality bliss is a lie, some duals are just not compartible and its simply a fact, this isn't about healthiness of a person, its just that some people are not compartible.

    And mutually some conflictors are actually very pleasant and exactly dual like, which gulenko has been saying that SEE-Harmozing ''S'' subtype is more alpha caregiver like and he finds them very compartible as he is a LII Creative ''I'' subtype. Equally with me personally as I'm an ILI Creative ''I'' subtype, my romance is more infantile than victim so I it explains why I'm actually bewildered by the standard conflict relations. And actually conversely I don't get along well with gamma aggressors, we just have a compartible rhythm, well with the SEE as irrationals, but there is just no attraction between us. I had a very difficult time with one SEE guy for that very fact.
    What is DCNH however, Gulenko has this whole energo type, TIM divide he's working on how but what does that mean explanation wise.

    I see TIM as a cortex level effect, and mostly a study of conscious and pre-consciousness. I wouldn't even call the vital ring unconscious at this point because imo, the vital ring represented by TIM is simply pre-conscious and it's perhaps only the top most layer of what was called unconsciousness. It's a layer that is still somewhat accessible by conscious thought. And this TIM is placed atop much older pre-existing structures and has the ability to override it.

    Beyond this conscious and pre-conscious structure that is maybe not even fully emerged in all individuals is a much bigger grey area where the structures are not taken into account by socionics.

    Socionics simulates relationships via information communication and transformation feedback mechanism, which is relatively unstable if material and environmental issues arise. IMO what Gulenko is doing is interesting(and he's digging deeper than the surface information dynamics of TIM) but he hasn't gotten the formulation and explanation right and I'm waiting until he does or someone else does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Unfortunately Russian psychology/sociology/philosophy and various other studies is much weaker than what one can attain in English at the moment. The Russians need to learn English, not the other way around.

    What is DCNH however, Gulenko has this whole energo type, TIM divide he's working on how but what does that mean explanation wise.


    I see TIM as a cortex level effect, and mostly a study of conscious and pre-consciousness. I wouldn't even call the vital ring unconscious at this point because imo, the vital ring represented by TIM is simply pre-conscious and it's perhaps only the top most layer of what was called unconsciousness. It's a layer that is still somewhat accessible by conscious thought. And this TIM is placed atop much older pre-existing structures and has the ability to override it.


    Beyond this conscious and pre-conscious structure that is maybe not even fully emerged in all individuals is a much bigger grey area where the structures are not taken into account by socionics.


    Socionics simulates relationships via information communication and transformation feedback mechanism, which is relatively unstable if material and environmental issues arise. IMO what Gulenko is doing is interesting(and he's digging deeper than the surface information dynamics of TIM) but he hasn't gotten the formulation and explanation right and I'm waiting until he does or someone else does.

    That is just in regards to socioncis, nevertheless, there are far more holes in the field generally if you are going to examine it from a scientific perspective.

    The element of consciousness and unconsciousness is still mind-boggling to me since it difficult to actually pin down on it; when observing an individual how can one impartially determine whether the information observed is conscious or unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    The element of consciousness and unconsciousness is still mind-boggling to me since it difficult to actually pin down on it; when observing an individual how can one impartially determine whether the information observed is conscious or unconscious.
    thats why they are called valued and unvalued

    you value this Pi function over this Pi function and this Je function over the other Je function

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    That is just in regards to socioncis, nevertheless, there are far more holes in the field generally if you are going to examine it from a scientific perspective.

    The element of consciousness and unconsciousness is still mind-boggling to me since it difficult to actually pin down on it; when observing an individual how can one impartially determine whether the information observed is conscious or unconscious.
    Socionics is a cognitive and information study, and can be looked at from an cognitive science perspective and information science perspective.

    There are things that are explicitly conscious, senses, imagination, language use and comprehension, etc. We are certainly communicating with the use of conscious aspect of our brain here. I come from a computational perspective and to me the unconscious is no different than an black box where certain aspects are known and investigated but the mechanism is hidden and can only be guessed at.

    From everything I know about the structure of the brain and the cerebral cortex, I think most of the conscious is in the Neocortex, while the pre-conscious is involved in the cerebral cortex. However this is still only the surface of the brain, and the structure below this area can have a lot to do with different levels of compatibility as well but are hereto unknown.

    In the cerebral cortex, information is already high refined(as other functional animals don't have nearly our cerebral cortex, yet are quite adept at some things). IMO Socionics as a study, is only sufficient to model the information mechanics of the highly refined information at the surface of/right below human consciousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Learn Russian in order to appreciate socionics, the stuff in Engish is mostly rubbish
    Google translator helps with that somewhat. The russian sites/forums have the most comprehensive information found for Socionics. There are alot more anecdotes over there on those forums from which people can learn alot from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero11 View Post
    thats why they are called valued and unvalued

    you value this Pi function over this Pi function and this Je function over the other Je function
    The trouble with analyzing myself is that I've noted that what ever side of my personality is on, becomes on, for example my SEI persona frequently appears which baffles me since in that instance, my information processing is very different. Its one of the reasons I get along with ILE so well too, I've been learning to appreciate it the more I've been observing myself. Mutually I get energized when my Ne is active which further complicates the question of what consciousness is, all I know is that I can find my self conscious in many states, and I've started to appreciate that there is nothing wrong with that. I'm now starting to appreciate the energomodel as a result, because of that yet the objective diagnosis is still something I'm interested in since I want to understand how Gulenko reconciles how the persona and ego can look alike, how would one know which is which since that has been quite a borne of contention with logical socionics schools who insult eachother's diagnoses

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    @Soupman

    Thats funny because your post screams of constant questioning, tormented by doubts and related perspective shifts as an attempt to solve these riddles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    In my own experience with typology, people expand on theory when they haven't understood the phenomena or observed enough to see what's really going on. I can't see DCNH in people. Until I can, I'm going to regard it as a pointless theoretical construct. Most of typology is so qualitative that it can't be split into categories. People try to explain negative interactions between positive relations by making greater sub-divisions, but really people just don't want to admit that sometimes they just don't get along. Beyond basic subtype, I really don't see any divisions other than those Enneagram-related ones.
    I easily see Ennetypes in people and one could , of course, claim that subtypes in DCHN derive from them. But I have yet to spot stuff like ILI- Fe or SLE - Ni . I´ve seen stronger Role, Demonstrative, even Mobilizing ...and I´ve attributed that to the kind of work people had to do in their lives. To practice basically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    When will you realize that nobody listens to your inane ramblings?
    Attacking a moderator is a sure way to get banned. For an unrelated reason this reminded me of this joke from Tropico.
    presidente-last.jpg
    Remember, El Presidente is right, even when he's wrong.

    I do enjoy the satirical humour behind the game, lately I've been thinking about how fun it could be to be a dictator because of this game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Why do I seem to get much better along with my Mirror or my Identity than with duals? Even Activity rocks my boat really well, with an intriguing difference, it takes a while to get it all about where they're coming from.
    is it possible that you are one of the types that you consider to be your activity and dual? this would make your identicals and mirrors be your activators and duals. it would make sense to get along better with them if by error you flipped the types around.

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    Well, no. SLI's are the only Deltas I've ever been drawn to on a social level. There are some interesting EII's and I can respect LSE's, but there's usually not much to keep me hooked outside of idle conversation. I'm not even sure what an LSE within my age range would look like. I can think of a couple that I've known, maybe.

    Edit: As for identity, can't say I come into contact with them. The online variation of the type seem like much better/likeable/naturally modest people than I am, go figure.
    Last edited by suedehead; 04-29-2014 at 03:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    Well, no. SLI's are the only Deltas I've ever been drawn to on a social level. There are some interesting EII's and I can respect LSE's, but there's usually not much to keep me hooked outside of idle conversation. I'm not even sure what an LSE within my age range would look like. I can think of a couple that I've known, maybe.

    Edit: As for identity, can't say I come into contact with them. The online variation of the type seem like much better/likeable/naturally modest people than I am, go figure.
    Suedehead ...wait. weren't you SEI some months ago? :-)

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