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Thread: Gamma Fi vs Delta Fi

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    Default Gamma Fi vs Delta Fi

    Deltas , how do you view Gamma Fi , have you had friends, partners? especially Fi egos. I'm wondering if there's anything next to the "oh that so cruel Se" to it.

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    Dear beta,

    The difference in Fi between Gammas and Deltas is summarized as follows:

    Deltas strive to make their social connections as wide as possible, they find it easier to build such connections than to break them.
    Gammas strive to remove themselves from useless connections. They find it easier to cut off the people they don't need or like from their lives than Deltas do.

    In a way Gammas are more seclusive than Deltas, it just seem the other way around because Gammas value external sensing and this forces them to be more in touch with the outer world.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Delta Fi is more theoretical than Gamma Fi. I find that Delta NFs are much more interested in discussion and talk over ethical/moral/human relationship-y issues than the actual implementation of these into life (at this stage Delta NFs become much more anxious and wary) - they are essentially theoreticians, while Gamma SFs are practicians who invest their time and effort into implementation and enaction, as a result of which their Fi seems to go through more reality checks and empirical fine-tuning.

    Delta Fi is also more "abstracted" and "generalized" - it is protracted and compounded from one situation onto the next, which allows Delta NFs to see into the essence of various situations and easily make up opinions about social developments and trends, as well as glimpse into the core of seemingly divergent personalities; in comparison Gamma SFs go by case-by-case basis and base their evaluations and opinions on discrete and observable actions, which makes their evaluations seem somehow more short-sighted than those of Delta NFs.

    Due to this, Delta NFs usually make the impression of being more insightful, interesting, and intelligent, while Gamma SFs make the impression of being more experienced, effective and capable.

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    I make theories up all the time. The one I'm currently working on is whether Intuitive types have a different type of protein muscle construction which allows them to burn carbohydrates instead of fats and if Sensory types have a type of muscle construction that burns fat...with these two types of muscle constructions it would seem plausible that N types have a different type of energy and why Sensory types have such a hard time gaining and losing weight. It's just a thought in development (for all those really mean people who are ready to jump on my throat...go eff off!!!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Delta Fi is more theoretical than Gamma Fi. I find that Delta NFs are much more interested in discussion and talk over ethical/moral/human relationship-y issues than the actual implementation of these into life (at this stage Delta NFs become much more anxious and wary) - they are essentially theoreticians, while Gamma SFs are practicians who invest their time and effort into implementation and enaction, as a result of which their Fi seems to go through more reality checks and empirical fine-tuning.

    Delta Fi is also more "abstracted" and "generalized" - it is protracted and compounded from one situation onto the next, which allows Delta NFs to see into the essence of various situations and easily make up opinions about social developments and trends, as well as glimpse into the core of seemingly divergent personalities; in comparison Gamma SFs go by case-by-case basis and base their evaluations and opinions on discrete and observable actions, which makes their evaluations seem somehow more short-sighted than those of Delta NFs.

    Due to this, Delta NFs usually make the impression of being more insightful, interesting, and intelligent, while Gamma SFs make the impression of being more experienced, effective and capable.
    Interesting way of explaining this. I once asked my father how he would describe me to a potential employer in three words. He said, Intelligent, insightful and enthusiastic... not the most unusual words but your post reminded me of the occaision.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Don't know about that "cruel Se", although I have had way more conflicts with Betas in real life, than Gammas. On this site, I don't mind having it with both. Toss in ILE here and there, hand picked straight from the garden called this forum, depriving it of water and soup ready.

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    Ugh Gamma Fi ESI especially in so many ways especially on my sad days I just want to run away from them all. I want to hide in the love of my Delta Fi friends.

    I have never made good friends with any ISFj NEVER and I don't want to honestly. They are not my cup of tea. They are reserved, far too untrusting of others, hold too much to wonder about who they are and what they are thinking. I can't get the one Gamme ESI friend I have to share any depths of her self with me as to bring a closer relationship to us, where I'm available so often for us to do simple things together to talk about our feelings, our relations. But, I know that from the people who have dated ESI is that they reveal a barrage of problems on their mates. I don't care so much anyway. My sister in law is SEE. I go over and take her flowers and make her feel welcomed and comfortable around me, we go eat stuff together and laugh about my brother. SEE and I are generally better but they expect so much energy and involvement that I can't keep up with. They live in the sensory output world "we're going shopping, we're going to the mall, we're going to the market, we're going here there here there here there here there" and I just live in my comfortable apartment. *I get exhausted (no more will and energy and I want to pass out)*

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    ...

    You know what that means, Maritsa. I can't really say that out loud, but somebody has to deal with those ESI...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I make theories up all the time. The one I'm currently working on is whether Intuitive types have a different type of protein muscle construction which allows them to burn carbohydrates instead of fats and if Sensory types have a type of muscle construction that burns fat...with these two types of muscle constructions it would seem plausible that N types have a different type of energy and why Sensory types have such a hard time gaining and losing weight. It's just a thought in development (for all those really mean people who are ready to jump on my throat...go eff off!!!).
    The problem with this approach is that first you have to be able to type people correctly. I know you are confident about your ability to do so, but I think overconfidence in this matter just serves to demonstrate one's ignorance and inexperience with socionics. I dont think there's any way that anyone can conclusively prove their typings are correct, other than majority consensus, and that unfortunately wont fly for scientific research/review purposes. A hunch or gut feeling about someone's type, much less. And I'm sure this goes without saying, but "confirmation by Maritsa" wont do either, I'm afraid.

    This is an interesting idea, for sure, but until there's a more objective way to establish socionic typings, you'd be wasting your time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Ugh Gamma Fi ESI especially in so many ways especially on my sad days I just want to run away from them all. I want to hide in the love of my Delta Fi friends.

    I have never made good friends with any ISFj NEVER and I don't want to honestly. They are not my cup of tea. They are reserved, far too untrusting of others, hold too much to wonder about who they are and what they are thinking. I can't get the one Gamme ESI friend I have to share any depths of her self with me as to bring a closer relationship to us, where I'm available so often for us to do simple things together to talk about our feelings, our relations. But, I know that from the people who have dated ESI is that they reveal a barrage of problems on their mates. I don't care so much anyway. My sister in law is SEE. I go over and take her flowers and make her feel welcomed and comfortable around me, we go eat stuff together and laugh about my brother. SEE and I are generally better but they expect so much energy and involvement that I can't keep up with. They live in the sensory output world "we're going shopping, we're going to the mall, we're going to the market, we're going here there here there here there here there" and I just live in my comfortable apartment. *I get exhausted (no more will and energy and I want to pass out)*
    That's interesting that you get along better with your supposed supervisors than with your kindred. Isn't supervision supposed to be worse?
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    That's interesting that you get along better with your supposed supervisors than with your kindred. Isn't supervision supposed to be worse?
    Not on this site. It is favourable relationship, just like conflict.

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    I got my motorbike running after Winter. Wind in my hair. Can I be EII now?
    Last edited by Absurd; 03-10-2014 at 06:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I make theories up all the time. The one I'm currently working on is whether Intuitive types have a different type of protein muscle construction which allows them to burn carbohydrates instead of fats and if Sensory types have a type of muscle construction that burns fat...with these two types of muscle constructions it would seem plausible that N types have a different type of energy and why Sensory types have such a hard time gaining and losing weight. It's just a thought in development (for all those really mean people who are ready to jump on my throat...go eff off!!!).
    I think about this kind of stuff ALL the time!!! Although my theories tend to gravitate towards slow and fast twitch muscle fibers. My SLI has also noted that he's able to "push himself further in the gym" due to some predisposition he has to tolerate and push past muscle fatigue. The man is ripped, so I believe him. I also think about this mental attitude all the time when I'm attempting (and failing) to achieve my pullup. Would an SLI woman of my frame/physique be able to push past this feeling and succeed?

    Sorry for the rabbit hole derail, but I love these types of thoughts
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    That's interesting that you get along better with your supposed supervisors than with your kindred. Isn't supervision supposed to be worse?
    Yes because they put out Ne and are not cold and reserved or untrusting like esi

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    I think about this kind of stuff ALL the time!!! Although my theories tend to gravitate towards slow and fast twitch muscle fibers. My SLI has also noted that he's able to "push himself further in the gym" due to some predisposition he has to tolerate and push past muscle fatigue. The man is ripped, so I believe him. I also think about this mental attitude all the time when I'm attempting (and failing) to achieve my pullup. Would an SLI woman of my frame/physique be able to push past this feeling and succeed?

    Sorry for the rabbit hole derail, but I love these types of thoughts

    I believe this would go along or at least could be made to hold hands with something like soma type.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geminatronix View Post
    I believe this would go along or at least could be made to hold hands with something like soma type.
    *Rapid fire Google Searching*
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    *Rapid fire Google Searching*

    Could be a new thread idea apples....

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    ... Gamma SFs go by case-by-case basis and base their evaluations and opinions on discrete and observable actions, which makes their evaluations seem somehow more short-sighted than those of Delta NFs.
    My SEE friend has a new in-law who was really horrible to her and then asked forgiveness, and then was horrible to her again, and then asked forgiveness again. The SEE accepted each apology at face value and each time was ready to be nice and try again to be friends. From other behaviors that I have observed, I think the in-law is two-faced and the SEE is going to have another bad experience sooner or later. But it is like the SEE can't SEE it coming....
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
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    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    My SEE friend has a new in-law who was really horrible to her and then asked forgiveness, and then was horrible to her again, and then asked forgiveness again. The SEE accepted each apology at face value and each time was ready to be nice and try again to be friends. From other behaviors that I have observed, I think the in-law is two-faced and the SEE is going to have another bad experience sooner or later. But it is like the SEE can't SEE it coming....

    Idk I think delta's can be forgiving like this too because they want to see the good despite past mistakes. I am a sucker and will forgive quite easily but trust has to be earned.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    i feel like maybe theres an extremism in gamma individualism that i don't really identify with. like its inevitable that people will take on aspects of their culture and be influenced by their environment like a fish in water couldnt describe water. and its easier to simplify things into a matter of taking responsibility cus the only person you can really control is yourself anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that how you choose to control yourself (or not) is due to everything youve experienced in your life up to that point. i dont know where the line should be drawn in terms of people making excuses that way, and thats a judgment call thing, but pretending that the social context around you doesn't control your behavior to some degree i think is ignoring the facts and wishful thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i feel like maybe theres an extremism in gamma individualism that i don't really identify with. like its inevitable that people will take on aspects of their culture and be influenced by their environment like a fish in water couldnt describe water. and its easier to simplify things into a matter of taking responsibility cus the only person you can really control is yourself anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that how you choose to control yourself (or not) is due to everything youve experienced in your life up to that point. i dont know where the line should be drawn in terms of people making excuses that way, and thats a judgment call thing, but pretending that the social context around you doesn't control your behavior to some degree i think is ignoring the facts and wishful thinking.
    I don't think gammas deny that their environment affects them. I do think that it is easy for them to detach from quite a bit of societal influence though. Not sure why this happens or how. They seem naturally insulated and unresponsive to some degree. No gamma I've known really believes what you've said gammas do. Where did you get this from?

    Edit: if anything, the gammas I've known are the most understanding of a person's behavior as a consequence of that person's past mixed with innate character, while Fe oriented quadras are more likely to judge someone out of hand for behaviors that seem strange or bad to them. Gammas are more likely to consciously interpret and attempt to figure out a reason than any other quadra. Don't get me wrong: some people are assholes. But on the whole this is what happens I think. ESFps who have legitimately been friendly to me over the years have always understood me on a very personal level, and never really judged me for behavior they thought was strange. Especially Fi subtypes are good at this. Positive ISFj relations for me have always entailed them caring to such a degree that they would overlook anything in my behavior that would normally turn others off. Once one of those guys judges you, their judgment pretty much stays the same, almost to the degree of being blinded by reality.

    So yeah, gammas are more likely to look at someone's behavior and say, "Why does he do that?" while Fe quadras simply stop at "That's weird."
    Last edited by Eldanen; 04-13-2014 at 11:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    I don't think gammas deny that their environment affects them. I do think that it is easy for them to detach from quite a bit of societal influence though. Not sure why this happens or how. They seem naturally insulated and unresponsive to some degree. No gamma I've known really believes what you've said gammas do. Where did you get this from?
    it came to mind because of @Suedehead and @mfckr's posts, but its just where my mind took me with it and i'm not sure where they'd stand in terms of how i framed it which is part of why i said it in hope of feedback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    it came to mind because of @Suedehead and @mfckr's posts, but its just where my mind took me with it and i'm not sure where they'd stand in terms of how i framed it which is part of why i said it in hope of feedback.
    It's important to understand that everyone's posts are flavored by their own ideals to some degree and not to mistake them for what the quadra says as a whole. The Ps in gamma are often decidedly more collectivistic in nature, and I know many who are very socially and economically liberal which is often in contrast to the involutionary Js.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Edit: if anything, the gammas I've known are the most understanding of a person's behavior as a consequence of that person's past mixed with innate character, while Fe oriented quadras are more likely to judge someone out of hand for behaviors that seem strange or bad to them. Gammas are more likely to consciously interpret and attempt to figure out a reason than any other quadra. Don't get me wrong: some people are assholes. But on the whole this is what happens I think. ESFps who have legitimately been friendly to me over the years have always understood me on a very personal level, and never really judged me for behavior they thought was strange. Especially Fi subtypes are good at this. Positive ISFj relations for me have always entailed them caring to such a degree that they would overlook anything in my behavior that would normally turn others off. Once one of those guys judges you, their judgment pretty much stays the same, almost to the degree of being blinded by reality.

    So yeah, gammas are more likely to look at someone's behavior and say, "Why does he do that?" while Fe quadras simply stop at "That's weird."
    how would you contrast this with delta? if you don't mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suedehead View Post
    Personal anecdotes/back stories are interested and can perhaps paint a clearer picture of the person in question, but it admittedly isn't something that I actively seek out when I hear about things that I disapprove of. For better or worse, my natural internal reaction has been to leave people to their own devices rather than speculate as to how to change the societal fabric that supposedly led him to this point; I see the value in those sort of discussions taking place, but it's never been a topic that I've felt I had much authority in.
    there are certain actions that cross a line after which i become pretty unforgiving about how somebody came to where they are - like mass murder or child molestation or something, because somehow those things feel oppositional to something really basic in terms of being human? - but most every day situations are not so extreme and are more morally ambiguous. this comes to mind. also remembering my own past i can see certain ways in which in retrospect i was influenced by expectations placed on me and i think being aware that i'm not immune to social programming is important if i want to try to resist it. i don't think about how to change it, either. but i'm interested in those sorts of opinions from others as long as they seem realistic. and the way in which people are influenced by the culture surrounding them as opposed to some kind of "natural" state (that wording is bad, but i'm not sure how to fix it) is pretty interesting to me. (i think for reasons but i'm not sure if i could explain that.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    how would you contrast this with delta? if you don't mind.
    Whereas gammas value Ni and Fi, Deltas value Ne and Fi. The NF functions relate to how a person judges and understands other people. Introverted functions are more likely to accept input that is more nuanced and less amenable to snap judgments. Deltas won't think you're strange for screwing up on FeTi. But Ni and Se will get you a quick, "Hmm. Gee. This guy? Maybe not." Ironically, having an extroverted function in the NF area is a great defense against choosing the wrong people to hang out with precisely because there are certain assumptions and safeguards that they expect others to live by. The more introverted functions operate with few axioms to start with and learn over time. So Deltas and gammas are more likely to make bad mistakes concerning character judgments more than alphas and Deltas. Even Deltas have Ne, so there are some expectations of what they view of ordinary behavior. So at the same time that it makes gammas open to more off-beat relationships, they are also more likely to get screwed, which I think is why they tend to be insular and stick with a few carefully chosen people. Betas say, "Honey I could have told you that in 5 seconds because he does X Y Z." I've known many esfps who were fine with any relationship as long as it made them happy. Money, class, age, and even ethics often make little difference to them. Fe oriented quadras have a more limited everyday perspective of human character that both protects them from negative extremes of experiences with people but also doesn't allow for positive extremes. Same applies for Ne quadras. Alphas tend to be most expectant and the least flexible about off-beat character. Gammas assume that human nature is a very subtle thing, and that what makes a person good or bad is often just a slight shift in perception or a small difference in behavior. Just because someone is a murderer doesn't mean he is bad. And that nice old lady in church might be the most evil person you'll ever know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    It's a common influence, but nothing about it is inevitable. An influence can shift the odds of a person acting one way or another, but in no way determines what they'll do—e.g. a temptation can obviously influence a person into desiring a particular course of action. But at any moment leading up to a given action, they're free to choose what that action will be.



    Most of the 'how' appears to be genetic rather than environmental.



    I don't know that there is such a line. Like your signature friend Sartre put it, "either man is wholly determined (which is inadmissable, especially because a determined consciousness—i.e., a consciousness externally motivated—becomes itself pure exteriority and ceases to be consciousness) or else man is wholly free."
    Depends on how you define consciousness. And honestly, I wouldn't rate most people as being all that aware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    I don't know that there is such a line. Like your signature friend Sartre put it, "either man is wholly determined (which is inadmissable, especially because a determined consciousness—i.e., a consciousness externally motivated—becomes itself pure exteriority and ceases to be consciousness) or else man is wholly free."
    this would make things simpler, but my own experiences and worldview don't coincide with it and i don't see why it has to be true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    So do you think people basically lapse in/out of self-control depending on circumstances around them?
    i think the interaction between the outside world and our consciousness is dynamic and certain circumstances will erode at our self control more than others or vice verca depending on that interplay, the depth of our immersion in the social environment, our self-awareness and willpower, etc

    its a good idea to take responsibility for having a lack of self-awareness since that is under our control to a certain degree. but unless you have some kind of idealistic representation of perfect self awareness that can be reached with effort (which i don't believe could exist), i don't think it makes sense to think of your strength in self awareness as something exempt from outside influences on the way you think.

    maybe my thinking makes things overly relative in practice because responsibility is important, but somehow i'm comfortable feeling out those questions on a case-by-case basis. i'm sure doing that without having an underlying code or logic to it probably makes me seem fickle/hypocritical/arbitrary sometimes. (maybe moreso from Fe/Ti types?)

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    This strikes me as a somewhat silly distinction to make. Why bother trying to distinguish one quadra from another based on what they theoretically have in common?

    At the very least the terminology is poorly used. The differences between delta and gamma are not caused by Fi and for that reason making Fi the center of the discussion is counter productive. It leads to falsely attributing perceived distinctions to a commonality. Instead talk about quadra values, or how Se and Ne values can result in differing problem solving attitudes. Any of the many things that theoretically make the two quadras different.

    Delta Fi types and Gamma Fi types are indeed different, but it's not because of Fi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    This strikes me as a somewhat silly distinction to make. Why bother trying to distinguish one quadra from another based on what they theoretically have in common?

    At the very least the terminology is poorly used. The differences between delta and gamma are not caused by Fi and for that reason making Fi the center of the discussion is counter productive. It leads to falsely attributing perceived distinctions to a commonality. Instead talk about quadra values, or how Se and Ne values can result in differing problem solving attitudes. Any of the many things that theoretically make the two quadras different.

    Delta Fi types and Gamma Fi types are indeed different, but it's not because of Fi.
    do you not agree that the expression of an element is influenced by whatever its blocked with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    do you not agree that the expression of an element is influenced by whatever its blocked with?
    I think that would be a much better topic of discussion, and one that would be far more interesting to read than tangentially related personal dilemmas or, observations that are supposed to be taken at face value and empathized with in lieu of socionic explanation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    I think that would be a much better topic of discussion, and one that would be far more interesting to read than tangentially related personal dilemmas or, observations that are supposed to be taken at face value and empathized with in lieu of socionic explanation.
    so discuss it, then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    I can't really recall a time feeling a distinct lack of self-control. Doesn't mean I always make the choices I want to make—sometimes I can watch intentions or other impulses go by and still knowingly engage in a bad choice. And while it might strike me as funny or jarring in retrospect, it was still undeniably my choice when it happened.
    ah, yeah. i think i know what you mean. lol

    i can't remember ever feeling like i wasn't making my own decision in the moment, even if i knew it was stupid, or whatever. its been in retrospect that ive put the pieces together and had a broader view of what was going on around me from a distanced perspective. maybe its hindsight being 20/20 or maybe its just creating a narrative to justify myself (or probably some of both).

    I guess if someone's going to fuck up, I'd rather see them as a willful fuck up. That at least makes more sense to me. The alternative is spooky.
    well yea, i dont really blame you i guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Deltas , how do you view Gamma Fi , have you had friends, partners? especially Fi egos. I'm wondering if there's anything next to the "oh that so cruel Se" to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    so discuss it, then?
    Deltas, valuing Ne, tend to be primarily concerned with the potential influences for another individual's behavior. To that end they can be peripherally concerned with passing judgment on others however due to their perception of multitudinous affective influences they will often remain unattached from their own assessments of others if they even bother to make any judgment in the first place.

    Gammas, valuing Se, are primarily concerned with the behavior an individual exhibits rather than the potential causes. For this reason they very readily place blame on others for perceived slights, especially where the cause of that individual's behavior is not readily apparent. Gammas, instead of assuming someone must have a reason for being the way they are, will instead assume that person is simply that way unless the individual can supply a reason that makes sense to the Gamma's understanding of that individual.

    Deltas in this way may view gammas as too hasty in their assessments of others and as unwilling to dig into the root cause of the problem. Deltas would say that Gammas can't give anyone the benefit of the doubt and Gammas would most likely not care at all about this criticism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    This strikes me as a somewhat silly distinction to make. Why bother trying to distinguish one quadra from another based on what they theoretically have in common?

    At the very least the terminology is poorly used. The differences between delta and gamma are not caused by Fi and for that reason making Fi the center of the discussion is counter productive. It leads to falsely attributing perceived distinctions to a commonality. Instead talk about quadra values, or how Se and Ne values can result in differing problem solving attitudes. Any of the many things that theoretically make the two quadras different.

    Delta Fi types and Gamma Fi types are indeed different, but it's not because of Fi.
    Gamma types and Delta types both possess Fi. But this Fi is different in character because one never sees a single function in isolation. All the valued functions are paired in a quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    I'd say consciousness in this sense implies an awareness of one's own mental states (i.e. mindfulness), as well as the capability to deliberately alter them.

    I agree that most people aren't very aware. For that matter, I'm not always very aware either. But I'd still be forced to conclude it's my fault for being that way.
    I think you're harsh on yourself. You're merely human. People don't always have control of themselves. Not everything that happens is necessarily a fault. Sometimes it's just an accident or mistake. I don't think anyone is completely aware, nor do I think this state is even possible. We're always somewhat bound by who we are and by the circumstances that influence us on a daily basis. To some degree, we can strive to become better versions of ourselves and change our circumstances. In some cases, the outward forces of life outweigh those of the individual. I think the best understanding of free will versus determinism comprehends the fact that it doesn't have to be a binary thing. We are to some degree controlled, and to another we exert control over our lives. Not only is this most likely to be accurate, but it's also psychologically the healthiest perspective. People who believe solely fate governs their lives often put no effort into changing them, while those who believe in the power of the individual flagellate themselves and others for forces which, to outside observation, were obviously beyond them.

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    free will is limited, meaning co-conditioned... in this way a person can be held responsible, barring karmic arguments, for how they've melded their environment to them, without being forced to stand socio-cultural trial.

    to this end I see gammas as the most adaptable and somewhat circumstantial in their assessments; conversely, the conclusions they do seem to draw, often last or persist more distinctly than those drawn by deltas, who take a more kaleidoscopic approach to the human experiment.

    gamma Fi is always somewhat easier for me to deal with... granted I'm more likely to have a kind of ideologically-tinged conflict with gammas than deltas, where aristocratic shoulder brushes keep things keeled, but as far as their actual judgments go, they tend to make more sense, than the often glib, somewhat dehumanizing brand you get from deltas. it does seem more case by case in ways, but it makes understandable things that may otherwise seem fickle or changeable to outside observers. ESIs are often the type to mildly correct me in a way that is stern without being invasive (this is less pronounced with Se-subs), SEEs in general can offer unexpected insights into people or surface various qualities that may have otherwise remained dormant... the closest it comes to real dissonance, is with Te-LIEs, which creates a kind of lone warden effect, but whatever. let gammas do their thing and they're generally good company. deltas just need to be 'left alone' according to whatever implicit boundaries that gird the interaction.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    I am and my sister as well are having a very hard time at some of the gamma Fi we have to deal with. Her sister-in-law is SEE. When my niece was born the SEE never called my sister to ask how she was doing and though my sister was in stitches and bed bound for several weeks the SEE never bothered being a friend or family. Now that the baby's older the SEE wants to come around and be included. My sister's furious at her and let her know. The SEE said it's her husband's job to go visit her since it's his family. Now she buys my sister's baby gifts and publically showes them off to the whole family who by the visional displays now assume she's so kind and concerned, she must be so loving. She, in my book, is a manipulative, hypocritical a hole and she's driving my sister nuts. My sisyer can not refrain from getting very visually upset as she is prone to hysteria, naturally being an ESE type.

    I have problems of my ow with a very similar situation with both SEE and ESI. Both do mean thinga to me and both want civility so that others see them as such darling angels, polite and properly mannered and yet they don't and are not at all concerned and want to address my feelings. I have very often wondered why this type of fake behavior is acceptable to Gamma Fi and I try my best to stay away from them. There are things about Alpha type of relations that don't click with the way I feel Fi plus feels about relations but IDK i can handle Alpha just not Gamma.

    My Delta friends are highly loyal. We feel that we may be crossing lines and we check with the other's feelings and input before we make contact with other people who we feel may get into the way of the bond that we have established. We don't drop friendships carelessly, with very little regarda to feelings.

    @Eliza Thomason might you have something to add with regard to my last statement?

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    @Maritsa, I really want to comment on it but I can't do it justice at the moment but I look forward to getting back to it and also the other mention....I have a deadline looming for early in the week and having trouble making it as work days have been tiring as its hot and kids are full of energy and restlessness this time of year... praying to not get called to work tomorrow! St. Joseph, help me...

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