I don't like giving Pinocchio more arguments one bit, but this and the other post in VDF's thread make me cautious about what you say of your type in context of IEs. "XSFPs" includes ISFps, who happen to be Si dominant. Since you're speaking MBTI there, it's likely you're influenced by the views of Jungian function prevalent in the community - which differ from socionics elements. I realize you're aware of the difference, but it seems you don't see how deep it goes.
Although I think "great-looking, but definitely for someone else" isn't type related, though I suppose it's possible it's gender-related.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Ahhh!!! I meant Esfps and Isfjs in socionics are the ones I'm more likely to date now from my group of acquaintances.
gamma because I'm materialistic, self-sacrificing for the greater good, am seen as stingy and favoritism giving by my ENTp best friend (with whom I fight frequently), and I get along with my isfj friend despite grave immaturity.
The few ESFjs I've been around have made me uncomfortable, and I started thinking of talking to them as completely unworthwhile for me. They SEEMED irrational (non-socionics usage) and to have too much power and potential sway over people, and given their warped (imo) views on life, I felt murderous, which I admit was not accepting on my part, but it illustrates my dissimilarity. (I was raised by an EII--I try to be gentle with people)
The Entp I dated and my other Entp best friend think of me as TOO SERIOUS (gamma), intelligent, theoretically inclined, but too practical. They generate ideas with me, but I'm always going toward implementation and real world need.
I love Se and hate being around Si
I am not a newbie to the functions. I have been studying MBTI, Keirsey, Socionics, and then the functions for the last 3 years nearly every day. I can see myself as ENTj or INTp, and I am open to others giving overwhelming evidence to counter all of mine and change my mind.
I feel most comfortable when dating someone with Fi and least with Fe. I like to be around my Ne friends, but they make me feel stopped in my tracks. I exhibit all gamma quadra values. I am attracted to Se. I feel dead around Si. I like Te to be tempered with Fi.
Paul Newman is my ideal of a partner. I am not attracted to that mcdreamy guy that is typed as ESFJ on the Grey's Anatomy show.
I have tried it with an ENTp, am being pursued by another one, and have a 3rd ENTp best friend. There is mutual respect and admiration, but they find me cold and calculating and anti-social and mercurial and sensitive.
Ugh. I'm late for work.
Maritsa, would you help me understand
I know an ISTp (my roommate) who hits it off with my IEE ex/roommate/friend and hits it off with my EII mother. I got the impression growing up that my single mother was constantly requiring from me (or wanting it), and i tried to be that for her. She looked up to me greatly and admired me, but she finds me harsh and is troubled that money is a criterion of my in a career. She is very artistic and nurturing. We definitely bond over , and my ENTp acquaintances loathe when I feel a value of mine has been violated.
Come to think of it, I didn't know why I didn't get along with the guy at my work, but after reading Lenore's wiki on dominants and how they don't trust the outside world, I was very measured and informative in my language with him. I explained things slowly and felt like i was prepping a baby who was uncomfortable for getting ready for school (not demeaning the way I mean it; I hope it isn't taken that way), and it worked beautifully.
I feel most at ease and known and appreciated talking to LIEs and SEEs, and I feel a bond with the ESI I know.
My and are apparent irl, and I'm very bad at . I'm always dissecting things and pointing out how we construct our own reality.
I need a concrete example of what I said that led you to believe so. If it was the
sex thread reply, I only talk about sex in public when I think it will lend toward an increase in the respect for women as equals (Fi value of mine as a Gamma female). I was always embarrassed by that before, but I am greatly distressed by the creation of the female as "the Other" (Beauvoir), and I require respect to be in any close association. Most urban myths about sex seem unegalitarian and undemocratic to me, so I began talking about sex, and people are quiet and listen when I do because I use an air of authority, because I back up my theories with science, etc.
I think this (and that I was raised by an EII and try to be gentle with them while gently pointing out what I think of as harsh rigidity in their values) has made Maritsa think I'm delta.
I am definitely the tactful one around my IEI and SLE friends. I know how to be gentle with people. What I don't get are the social rituals of Si and Fe. My ENTp buddy is forever getting frustrated with me over it. I am a bad host. I also (Gamma) try to pay people for giving me rides or (roommates) sharing food.
I am uncomfortable with not paying. If someone is not in desperate need, I am of the opinion that they should do it themselves. My ENTp roommate says I'll look at my future baby girl and not help her if she is crying, expecting her to self-calm and do it herself. I am very gentle with people, but I like to enable them.
There is a great sensation/feeling in work/achievement.
Everyone is always telling me how fiercely independent I am.
I am drawn more to my LIE friend and feel safer with him than with my ILE ones.
My ili friends and I are all very sensitive inside and come off as harsh, but we are not tactless, unless you count being bad hosts. We protect people in conversation and are painfully polite. My ENTp roomie is very open and boisterous (if guarded) around people. He's got that Fe thing going easily. I prefer intimate one-on-one conversations.
Last edited by nanashi; 07-31-2010 at 11:24 PM.
There is a general pattern on this forum.
As soon as someone comes to this board and has found a selftyping, that selftyping is attacked by a bunch of people and replaced by the most crazy alternative types, making the person insecure so they start to switch their selftyping.
Don't fall into that pattern please.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
My understanding of the two are as follows:
An awareness of the power around oneself, the perceptive ability to gauge the energy, which immediately causes one to want to act.
The saving of discrete data and it's relation to one's self. The ability to make one's environment hospitable and physically pleasing. The absence of this quality and the absence of deeming it necessary or even desirable is a definite indicator that I am not in the Alpha nor Delta quadras.
I am constantly going to great physical lengths (walking with a dislocated hip for miles so as not to be around people). My Alpha and Delta roomies are constantly chastising me and feeling frustratedly offended that I do not accept rides, etc.
I let my legs fall asleep, don't know where body pain is coming from--I just have a sense of discomfort, and eat at weird times.
I'm very practical, and I deprive myself of things like an ascetic at times.
Last edited by nanashi; 06-23-2010 at 10:34 PM.
Wow, yes I do see you as NT analyzer with Gamma quad preferences and I am taken aback by your openness in discussing things of Si nature.
How did you do it? How can you or how did you come to talk about sex so freely and easily as if it's not Taboo?
Most N types, including myself, as observed by the formator of Socionics observed that N types to see Sex as taboo.
I can't get any of my INTp friends/relatives to discuss or be open with that nature...regard
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
No they do not.
I can't understand how she can.
But, all the other things in the big picture, indicates her being Gamma, so you gotta trust it for now and see/observe who she gravitates towards.
Just give it some time, I've learned from my duals that the truth always comes out with a little time...
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Information elements imply socionics. MBTI functions are a different thing. You can't trust them ; ).
OK, I've been just raising possible MBTI - Socionics conversion issue, especially in context of online "INTJ" community, majority of which is probably extraverted and/or rational in socionics. I don't really know enough about you at this point to say anything about your type, though I disagree with some of Pinocchio's arguments, but that's the norm.
Or Jarno comes and confirms their self-typing and there can be no further question. (No, seriously. It does make me feel kind of predictable.)
Give her some time to adjust please....we can see how she will fit later on. Let's ease off and be kind to her.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Whew. I feel known now and recognized. When I was discussing sexual relations, i was not doing so with an slant. I think that may have been your interpretation, and it certainly is not something I used to be comfortable with at all. However, as I stated on the other thread, I have become incredibly vocal about sex, being careful to preserve the anonymity of the other participants (even if I'm talking about kissing), because I want the sexual dynamics to change (the inaccurate social ideas and misinformation). I discuss what I prefer and give reasons and specific examples of unpleasant situations, or I'll give examples of me exhibiting the male stereotype and the male the female stereotypes, i.e. sex drive. I found a lot of sexism in discussion of sex, and once I devised ways of getting around my discomfort (only mentioning "an ex" instead of saying John who works in the next cubicle still, etc), I feel a great drive to talk about sex to counter people's collection of myths which demean women or put them in boxes.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
slam the door. shut the case. flat out wrong. sorry. [Genie voice]"No refunds." Because you've never heard of it? I hear about it all the time, so that's just our words against each other. I don't think it's pretty clear that I use the wrong definitions of functions or types. Just above, I proved my gamma-ness to Maritsa who doggedly believed I was Alpha or Delta--in one post about my conceptions of and .
Well, we (NT) see the rationality of the exchange and share the following 4 out of 11 Reinin dichotomy qualities: democratic, tactical, constructivist, and process. This doesn't mean we're both Alphas.
I find all NTs to lack diplomacy and be unwilling to let the Emperor walk by naked, just in different situations.
My definitions of the functions are sound. I am not the only one to have typed the said people, and ENTps have typed me INTP.
Well, SEE's out of the question. This ILE guy is repulsed by Fi appeals from both an IEE and an EII and loathes being around my ESI friend. We get along for a while but fight when my Fi valuing is not met with Fi from him. He's very theoretical and doesn't do the whole sports or exercise thing. He values , even if he isn't great about it.
He tries to maintain group emotional state. He's "Let's go get a (food item)," etc. I try to support the individual in whatever they individually value (while being aware of the impact of their beliefs and actions on others during time, etc). I don't like emotional displays.People crying around me causes me discomfort. On the other hand, he drove me all the way to casinos to try to make me feel better when a recent ex was making love to someone else loudly in my house. He tries to evoke positive feelings/emotions . He's insensitive to .
causes me to be very independent minded. When it is better for my situation to speak up about my ideals/ideas, I do.Perhaps you're referring to my saying something in another thread when two members were being rude to each other. It is not to my detriment to point out ignoble attacks of members on other members in another thread on a forum I am interested in participating in. ILIs value Fi. It also wasn't aiding their discussion to insult each other. I don't like emotional displays.
I HAVE an SLI roommate, and HE DRIVES ME NUTSSSS!!!!! (echo. echo..echo...) He acts like a martyr, which some Caregiver types are prone to do (not all) probably precisely because they value Si so much and are such hardworkers; he's very...useful, but I require more than that in a mate. We trust each other on a level. We get things done, etc. But I'm bored during interaction with him, and feel like he's blind to the meaning in the social and day-to-day situations around us.
I don't like being taken care of in that sense. I went on dates with a SLI, and I was bored and dead inside. He had his freshly pressed shirt on, was solid, was steady, had his hair cut, and insisted on paying for future dates because I was in school. He had his life all laid out in little boxes. I remember staring across at him being completely unattracted to him. I don't find myself attracted to ISFPs.They seem lacking in independence.
---
see above reply
Yeah. I just talked to my ILE bestfriend a few minutes ago about this thread, and he's like:"You're an INTP."
nods head.
My thinking is dynamic. I organize resources and sort them. My ILE friend talks to the landlord, which I avoid. Fe and Ti
She didn't come off as rambling at all to me.
See above response to nanashi's wild exhibitionism of talking about human physical relations on a thread about sex...on a forum about psychology to people who cannot trace her who don't work with her and can't make her life uncomfortable.
I have several ILE's who like to converse with me. A lot of it is me listening to them and asking them questions. It makes sense that we seem to be similar because our psyches are organized similarly. For instance, we have and. We are perceivers first. We use logical reasoning next. We seek gentle, practical people.
My EII mother was a huge influence on me, and I have two dominant best friends/roommates. I am open to some .
LOL! I'm such an ILI I took apart your post above: "if you take all this as an attempt of people to impose their will, you're wrong"..."I'm trying to make you"...
Last edited by nanashi; 06-24-2010 at 02:28 AM.
I agree, I believe Pinnochio has lost out. There is no doubt in my mind after reading this thread that Nanashi is ILI. Nothing she has written here is attractive to me in the slightest.
D-SEI 9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
Kamajama,
Non-attraction's cool, but if I said something rude, I beg you, call me out on it or send me a private message. I don't want to have.
I just became a somebody.
"EVERYONE IS MY DUAL AND IN ALL PROBABILITY ARE EGO."
You said I was ILE after I shared my type. I gave my reasons for my conclusion. AND I asked for yours. I stated I was open to being swayed. There is nothing stubborn about that. Wait, I'm deluded. My judgment can't be trusted because I'm an ILE who is brainwashed by Maritsa (whom I just recently met here btw. it's not like we're sisters or something), even though you said yourself you can't be certain of my type because we are just newly introduced online.
[quote=Pinocchio;661651]
Maritsa, I'm not saying you're a fool about typing, but if you were, your backing me up doesn't prove without a doubt that I am wrong. If you look at the threads I've posted on lately, she kept posting in them about how I am not ILI. She asked me for a VI photo. She asked me to retype myself. I had to read type descriptions. I had to give her a description of and , etc. She wasn't easily convinced. It wasn't until I explained why I talked about sex (the stumbling block in her mind for me being an ILI) that she conceded.
Oh it's pretty obvious that some forum members are not too overly fond of how Maritsa's been interacting with them and others. You hinted that you wanted my friends' types to be proven, since I used them as indicators of my own type in one of your previous posts. This is one reason I provided examples of their personalities coming through their actions instead of just naming them. I can provide more.
He exercises from time to time, as well, now, but he only started when he physically needed to and someone explained it to him. What I was trying to indicate was his lack of Se interest in sports.
He's very good at counting cards, so he took me somewhere where he decided he could win money and buy me drinks because I wouldn't argue that he'd slaved away at his job over the money.
No. No. No. You said I couldn't be an ILI because I stood up for my ideas in this forum. I tried to show that both ILIs and ILEs can do this and that I am not ILE just because of it:"My causes me to be very independent minded. When it is better for my situation to speak up about my ideals/ideas, I do.Perhaps you're referring to my saying something in another thread when two members were being rude to each other. It is not to my detriment to point out ignoble attacks of members on other members in another thread on a forum I am interested in participating in. ILIs value Fi. It also wasn't aiding their discussion to insult each other. I don't like emotional displays."
He was dressed simply. No pizazz there. He was wearing a bland collared shirt like he'd wear to his office job.
LOL. He's quite adept in socionics, actually, but don't you think we have an able ILE right here bequeathing his superior knowledge to us already? LOL
I was using my memory from this and many other sources: Extraverted Thinking.
I would with an EII regardless of whether I was ILE or ILI. Except, I would be able to be gentle to an EII and to explain my thought process to one if I was ILI, but I would be perceiving like an EII and Si-seeking if I was ILE.
"Introverted Intuition is a way of orienting yourself to your environment by consciously attending to the expected interpretations of things. In this manner of orientation, you hold agnostic about whether those interpretations are true. You view them as expected interpretations, nothing more. Your world is a world of expected interpretations defined by others; you navigate through those interpretations and use them without regard to whether they're true, always keeping the interpretations separate in your mind from the actual objects."
Introverted Intuition
A)To listen to you knowledgeable people (whom I respect) and add your insight to my own. To do this, I have to question any posits of yours which conflict with my own prior conclusions, while being open to yours. If you can answer all of my questions with concrete proof and show me I have been blind, I'll move on over. I try to see what gave you the perspective on the subject you have, and sometimes you've processed something (because of your own life experience and psyche organization) and arrived at a different conclusion. With Maritsa, I concluded that I needed to explain the very-ILI reason I would talk about sex.
B) I was here on this thread to ask about SEE lifestyle...actually....
It seems that you don't like me, Pinocchio. You're all and and leaving.
She could also dislike NTs.
Or she may find the two of us rude.
I have a problem with being arrogant occasionally. I would deeply appreciate your pointing out to me where I was arrogant when you have the time. I despise the quality, and I apologize to everyone on the thread for it. I am not ignorant. Even if I am, teach me. Other NTs can be thought of as arrogant, not just ENTPs.
why are you referring to it that way? You said you'd be anti-sexist yourself if you were female in this culture. (note nanashi's appeal)
Perhaps one of us will see it differently eventually
btw, this is how my battles of will and reasoning go down with my ILE friends/ex boyfriend....
initially I greatly respect them. We talk for a bit. We both don't support each other. (Extinguishment relationships) We leave feeling
Don'tcha'll say I don't talk (collapses)
I really don't understand. If this is about my apology, I was raised by an EII, and I don't want to be an ass. I don't like interpersonal spats. I like arguing about ideas.
BUT
If this is about the quote on the bottom of the page, I was using a humorous slant, responding to the fact that Kamajama MAY have been insulting me when saying nothing I wrote was at all attractive while Kamajama has this signature line declaring that EVERYONE is Kamajama's dual. I, thus, am not everyone, so I am now someone. I just became a somebody.
Actually Lenore Thompson's ideas and more common MBTI interpretation of functions are different things, too. I suppose there may be more correlation (function-wise) with the former and socionics than between the two, but I wouldn't say it's one-to-one, either.
One way or another, using these functions as socionics information elements isn't a good idea, in general. The typologies aren't exactly compatible, probably because Lenore and Augusta looked at different aspects of personality despite superficially similar focus on perception, or at least because interpretations of Lenore's writing took a different turn. While the snippet about Ni is pretty good, this one about Ne would work even better for Ni:
Which is of course only Proposed definition # 5, but it serves as an example of incompatibility.Extraverted Intuition seems to be about forming a larger context based on specific experiences and their emerging relations to one another. My main argument is that there isn't enough emphasis on how this process evolves, both on an individual level, and on the the level of collective knowledge that we learn within a group.
... you might have noticed by now you aren't the only one being retyped by Pinocchio, but for the record: a lot of other people who didn't get mentioned here are, it's nothing to worry about - though probably worth considering, if only to further the understanding.
This is exactly what I thought re-reading parts of ASOIAF recently... I don't know if you're familiar with the series, but Ti vs Fi valuing is very clearly depicted there - though probably still not so much as Se/Ni vs Si/Ne - especially between particular characters, two of whom I type LSI and ESI. The former demonstrates the exact approach you describe as Ti here... justice alone, both punishment and reward in extraordinary situation. Of course fiction often depicts values more clearly than they're seen in real life, since characters are overdrawn to begin with, but as you're speaking of allegories, it's a fitting example.
Re: your typings - I hope it's clear I still disagree with many of them. Though working out why they don't work helps.
awesome pic. I'm curious to see more of her work. I keeping watching her in The Long, Hot Summer.
I think Cool Hand Luke may be my favorite movie.
usually when people on this site insist like crazy on being ILI they turn out IEI. (although you do sound ILI in contrast to crazedrat and lord java the 3rd)
Paul Neuman is ESTp
Girl next to him is either INFj or ISFp
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-03-2010 at 01:57 AM.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
hmmm....he seems pretty Fi oriented in his movie roles. I've watched a lot of them. Joanne Woodward, the woman in the photo, is frequently typed as a T. A lot of times, she plays the harsh, shy, control-focused woman to his charming hardworker man in the movies. He seems to display Gamma values.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
What are you talking about for God's sake, ILI can very well sort and organize; organizing is as much Te as anything. Te kind of organization requires work which is something that Ti don't do as well as Te. Ti is more categories and systems, more of defining a term and building rules of doing things.
Leave her alone, and go learn socionics and how to type before you pick at her.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html