nanashi's type split

[nanashi]

Jarno! LOL.

@nanashi: I was with my eyes on you, I though you might disappear. I'm interested because:
- I think you're an ILE and I find that exciting, I mean to meet ILE females (yes, I know others IRL but busy and not interested in the field anyway).
- I like the fact that you're so determined to find your Dual, this is exactly how I was 3 y.a.

In any case, I think the most important thing is correct typing. ILI or ILE, both have this problem of idealizing different things and not being able to recognize their true "half", therefore correct typing is the only chance.

Well, it is possible. I believe I am an INTp, but I would like to know WHY you thought I was an ILE? and I'm open to it.

[Aiss]

i'm less favorable toward relationships with non XSFPs now, as a result of several dates with or or or dominant men either providing no mental stimulation of the type I respond to, no sense of independence and spirit (to me), or no physical attraction (great-looking, but definitely for someone else).

I don't like giving Pinocchio more arguments one bit, but this and the other post in VDF's thread make me cautious about what you say of your type in context of IEs. "XSFPs" includes ISFps, who happen to be Si dominant. Since you're speaking MBTI there, it's likely you're influenced by the views of Jungian function prevalent in the community - which differ from socionics elements. I realize you're aware of the difference, but it seems you don't see how deep it goes.

Although I think "great-looking, but definitely for someone else" isn't type related, though I suppose it's possible it's gender-related.

[Beautiful sky]

I don't like giving Pinocchio more arguments one bit, but this and the other post in VDF's thread make me cautious about what you say of your type in context of IEs. "XSFPs" includes ISFps, who happen to be Si dominant. Since you're speaking MBTI there, it's likely you're influenced by the views of Jungian function prevalent in the community - which differ from socionics elements. I realize you're aware of the difference, but it seems you don't see how deep it goes.

Although I think "great-looking, but definitely for someone else" isn't type related, though I suppose it's possible it's gender-related.

Give Pinocchio and ear. He has somewhat of a sense about what he's talking about.

Nanashe is not Gamma, her emphasis and value of/on Si indicates she would fit better in Alpha.

[Jarno]

Silly argument. Information elements are information elements. All arguments otherwise are relativist nonsense.

Exactly.

[nanashi]

I don't like giving Pinocchio more arguments one bit, but this and the other post in VDF's thread make me cautious about what you say of your type in context of IEs. "XSFPs" includes ISFps, who happen to be Si dominant. Since you're speaking MBTI there, it's likely you're influenced by the views of Jungian function prevalent in the community - which differ from socionics elements. I realize you're aware of the difference, but it seems you don't see how deep it goes.

Although I think "great-looking, but definitely for someone else" isn't type related, though I suppose it's possible it's gender-related.

Ahhh!!! I meant Esfps and Isfjs in socionics are the ones I'm more likely to date now from my group of acquaintances.

gamma because I'm materialistic, self-sacrificing for the greater good, am seen as stingy and favoritism giving by my ENTp best friend (with whom I fight frequently), and I get along with my isfj friend despite grave immaturity.

The few ESFjs I've been around have made me uncomfortable, and I started thinking of talking to them as completely unworthwhile for me. They SEEMED irrational (non-socionics usage) and to have too much power and potential sway over people, and given their warped (imo) views on life, I felt murderous, which I admit was not accepting on my part, but it illustrates my dissimilarity. (I was raised by an EII--I try to be gentle with people)

The Entp I dated and my other Entp best friend think of me as TOO SERIOUS (gamma), intelligent, theoretically inclined, but too practical. They generate ideas with me, but I'm always going toward implementation and real world need.

I love Se and hate being around Si

[nanashi]

I am not a newbie to the functions. I have been studying MBTI, Keirsey, Socionics, and then the functions for the last 3 years nearly every day. I can see myself as ENTj or INTp, and I am open to others giving overwhelming evidence to counter all of mine and change my mind.


I feel most comfortable when dating someone with Fi and least with Fe. I like to be around my Ne friends, but they make me feel stopped in my tracks. I exhibit all gamma quadra values. I am attracted to Se. I feel dead around Si. I like Te to be tempered with Fi.

[nanashi]

Paul Newman is my ideal of a partner. I am not attracted to that mcdreamy guy that is typed as ESFJ on the Grey's Anatomy show.

I have tried it with an ENTp, am being pursued by another one, and have a 3rd ENTp best friend. There is mutual respect and admiration, but they find me cold and calculating and anti-social and mercurial and sensitive.

Ugh. I'm late for work.

[nanashi]

Give Pinocchio and ear. He has somewhat of a sense about what he's talking about.

Nanashe is not Gamma, her emphasis and value of/on Si indicates she would fit better in Alpha.

Maritsa, would you help me understand

I know an ISTp (my roommate) who hits it off with my IEE ex/roommate/friend and hits it off with my EII mother. I got the impression growing up that my single mother was constantly requiring from me (or wanting it), and i tried to be that for her. She looked up to me greatly and admired me, but she finds me harsh and is troubled that money is a criterion of my in a career. She is very artistic and nurturing. We definitely bond over , and my ENTp acquaintances loathe when I feel a value of mine has been violated.

Come to think of it, I didn't know why I didn't get along with the guy at my work, but after reading Lenore's wiki on dominants and how they don't trust the outside world, I was very measured and informative in my language with him. I explained things slowly and felt like i was prepping a baby who was uncomfortable for getting ready for school (not demeaning the way I mean it; I hope it isn't taken that way), and it worked beautifully.

I feel most at ease and known and appreciated talking to LIEs and SEEs, and I feel a bond with the ESI I know.


My and are apparent irl, and I'm very bad at . I'm always dissecting things and pointing out how we construct our own reality.

Well I have some reasons, but most of all are not really accepted by the mob, so I think I'll have to tell them and explain on PM - I don't actually feel like arguing again.

First, you don't seem to value Fi, but Fe, you show too much enthusiasm for not-yet-accepted things and doesn't seem to bother you what's recognized or not,

I need a concrete example of what I said that led you to believe so. If it was the
sex thread reply, I only talk about sex in public when I think it will lend toward an increase in the respect for women as equals (Fi value of mine as a Gamma female). I was always embarrassed by that before, but I am greatly distressed by the creation of the female as "the Other" (Beauvoir), and I require respect to be in any close association. Most urban myths about sex seem unegalitarian and undemocratic to me, so I began talking about sex, and people are quiet and listen when I do because I use an air of authority, because I back up my theories with science, etc.

I think this (and that I was raised by an EII and try to be gentle with them while gently pointing out what I think of as harsh rigidity in their values) has made Maritsa think I'm delta.

then there was that thing that made me laugh when you said that after you have sex you feel a sentiment of "mission accomplished". That's great - if you ask me - but that's not Fi/Te. Ever heard of people who after having sex "require" all sot of things like staying (or doing things) together, talking, not getting asleep, etc? - that's right, Fi. I had this problem with exes, after having sex I went to the computer or to sleep or whatever, I found pointless to lag for something that has ended already - and I had debates with Fi valuers (including an ILI!) about it. Crap... but I understand their claims, they think that a connection is created and moving your attention means disregarding it.

Then you appear to me too hasty and tactless for an ILI . You appear to be a Static type, descriptive in communication and put an emphasis on the status of things than their interaction. All the image you have in mind about something is - in an ideal case - dumped at once, the image rather grows in detail the more you think about it, than develop in time or by gathering data.
You appear to have a Ti thought process, check above, you said "great-looking, but definitely for someone else". Why "for someone else"? You see, you are Fe-valuer and analytical, you don't use good and bad, but fit for/unfit for.

So little things like these I find incompatible, I don't know you so well but I see you most likely an ILE, it would be good to take a look on the descriptions, to tell what in ILE doesn't make sense and what in ILI makes sense.
Btw, your avatar reminds me of someone I know that can't be typed other than SLE or ILE - I don't know her very well, she's and ex colleague of my SLI ex.

I am definitely the tactful one around my IEI and SLE friends. I know how to be gentle with people. What I don't get are the social rituals of Si and Fe. My ENTp buddy is forever getting frustrated with me over it. I am a bad host. I also (Gamma) try to pay people for giving me rides or (roommates) sharing food.

I am uncomfortable with not paying. If someone is not in desperate need, I am of the opinion that they should do it themselves. My ENTp roommate says I'll look at my future baby girl and not help her if she is crying, expecting her to self-calm and do it herself. I am very gentle with people, but I like to enable them.

There is a great sensation/feeling in work/achievement.

Everyone is always telling me how fiercely independent I am.

I am drawn more to my LIE friend and feel safer with him than with my ILE ones.

My ili friends and I are all very sensitive inside and come off as harsh, but we are not tactless, unless you count being bad hosts. We protect people in conversation and are painfully polite. My ENTp roomie is very open and boisterous (if guarded) around people. He's got that Fe thing going easily. I prefer intimate one-on-one conversations.

[Jarno]

There is a general pattern on this forum.

As soon as someone comes to this board and has found a selftyping, that selftyping is attacked by a bunch of people and replaced by the most crazy alternative types, making the person insecure so they start to switch their selftyping.

Don't fall into that pattern please.

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa, would you help me understand

I know an ISTp (my roommate) who hits it off with my IEE ex/roommate/friend and hits it off with my EII mother. I got the impression growing up that my single mother was constantly requiring from me (or wanting it), and i tried to be that for her. She looked up to me greatly and admired me, but she finds me harsh and is troubled that money was a criterion of my in a career. She is very artistic and nurturing. We definitely bond over , and my ENTp acquaintances loathe when I feel my value has been violated.

Come to think of it, I didn't know why I didn't get along with the guy at my work, but after reading Lenore's wiki on dominants and how they don't trust the outside world, I was very measure and informative in my language with him. I explained things slowly and felt like i was prepping a baby who was uncomfortable for getting ready for school (not demeaning the way I mean it; I hope it isn't taken that way), and it worked beautifully.

I feel most at ease and known and appreciated talking to LIEs and SEEs, and I feel a bond with the ESI I know.


My and are apparent irl, and I'm very bad at . I'm always dissecting things and pointing out how we construct our own reality.

Define Si for me please.
Define Se for me as well.

I want to see if you understand what they mean and how they work.

[nanashi]

My understanding of the two are as follows:


An awareness of the power around oneself, the perceptive ability to gauge the energy, which immediately causes one to want to act.



The saving of discrete data and it's relation to one's self. The ability to make one's environment hospitable and physically pleasing. The absence of this quality and the absence of deeming it necessary or even desirable is a definite indicator that I am not in the Alpha nor Delta quadras.

I am constantly going to great physical lengths (walking with a dislocated hip for miles so as not to be around people). My Alpha and Delta roomies are constantly chastising me and feeling frustratedly offended that I do not accept rides, etc.

I let my legs fall asleep, don't know where body pain is coming from--I just have a sense of discomfort, and eat at weird times.

I'm very practical, and I deprive myself of things like an ascetic at times.

[Beautiful sky]

My understanding of the two are as follows:


An awareness of the power around oneself, the perceptive ability to gauge the energy, which immediately causes one to want to act.



The saving of discrete data and it's relation to itself. The ability to make one's environment hospitable and physically pleasing. The absence of this quality and the absence of deeming it necessary or even desirable is a definite indicator that I am not in the Alpha nor Delta quadras.

I am constantly going to great physical lengths (walking with a dislocated hip for miles so as not to be around people). My Alpha and Delta roomies are constantly chastising me and feeling frustratedly offended that I do not accept rides, etc.

I let my legs fall asleep, don't know where body pain is coming from--I just have a sense of discomfort, and eat at weird times.

I'm very practical, and I deprive myself of things like an ascetic at times.

Wow, yes I do see you as NT analyzer with Gamma quad preferences and I am taken aback by your openness in discussing things of Si nature.

How did you do it? How can you or how did you come to talk about sex so freely and easily as if it's not Taboo?

Most N types, including myself, as observed by the formator of Socionics observed that N types to see Sex as taboo.
I can't get any of my INTp friends/relatives to discuss or be open with that nature...regard

[Beautiful sky]

Oh, and btw, I have to struggle to find out if I ever heard an ILI to talk about his/her intimate life in public, lol! ILIs are very private and avoid these subjects.

No Pinocchio, she really is ILI type...that Si, you're mistaking it with Se...she seeks Se. Her valuing of practical/real things with Fi nature is very telling.

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa, you quoted me on the public speaking about the intimate life. Talk to the point and don't ramble, please, do ILIs talk so easily about intimate matters?

Just answer them, don't divert the valid points to irrelevant "no, it's not - yes, it is" bullshit, if you want to address me.

No they do not.
I can't understand how she can.
But, all the other things in the big picture, indicates her being Gamma, so you gotta trust it for now and see/observe who she gravitates towards.
Just give it some time, I've learned from my duals that the truth always comes out with a little time...

[Aiss]

Silly argument. Information elements are information elements. All arguments otherwise are relativist nonsense.

Information elements imply socionics. MBTI functions are a different thing. You can't trust them ; ).

Ahhh!!! I meant Esfps and Isfjs in socionics are the ones I'm more likely to date now from my group of acquaintances.

gamma because I'm materialistic, self-sacrificing for the greater good, am seen as stingy and favoritism giving by my ENTp best friend (with whom I fight frequently), and I get along with my isfj friend despite grave immaturity.

The few ESFjs I've been around have made me uncomfortable, and I started thinking of talking to them as completely unworthwhile for me. They SEEMED irrational (non-socionics usage) and to have too much power and potential sway over people, and given their warped (imo) views on life, I felt murderous, which I admit was not accepting on my part, but it illustrates my dissimilarity. (I was raised by an EII--I try to be gentle with people)

The Entp I dated and my other Entp best friend think of me as TOO SERIOUS (gamma), intelligent, theoretically inclined, but too practical. They generate ideas with me, but I'm always going toward implementation and real world need.

I love Se and hate being around Si

OK, I've been just raising possible MBTI - Socionics conversion issue, especially in context of online "INTJ" community, majority of which is probably extraverted and/or rational in socionics. I don't really know enough about you at this point to say anything about your type, though I disagree with some of Pinocchio's arguments, but that's the norm.

There is a general pattern on this forum.

As soon as someone comes to this board and has found a selftyping, that selftyping is attacked by a bunch of people and replaced by the most crazy alternative types, making the person insecure so they start to switch their selftyping.

Don't fall into that pattern please.

Or Jarno comes and confirms their self-typing and there can be no further question. (No, seriously. It does make me feel kind of predictable.)

[Beautiful sky]

Give her some time to adjust please....we can see how she will fit later on. Let's ease off and be kind to her.

[nanashi]

Wow, yes I do see you as NT analyzer with Gamma quad preferences and I am taken aback by your openness in discussing things of Si nature.


How did you do it? How can you or how did you come to talk about sex so freely and easily as if it's not Taboo?

Most N types, including myself, as observed by the formator of Socionics observed that N types to see Sex as taboo.
I can't get any of my INTp friends/relatives to discuss or be open with that nature...regard

Whew. I feel known now and recognized. When I was discussing sexual relations, i was not doing so with an slant. I think that may have been your interpretation, and it certainly is not something I used to be comfortable with at all. However, as I stated on the other thread, I have become incredibly vocal about sex, being careful to preserve the anonymity of the other participants (even if I'm talking about kissing), because I want the sexual dynamics to change (the inaccurate social ideas and misinformation). I discuss what I prefer and give reasons and specific examples of unpleasant situations, or I'll give examples of me exhibiting the male stereotype and the male the female stereotypes, i.e. sex drive. I found a lot of sexism in discussion of sex, and once I devised ways of getting around my discomfort (only mentioning "an ex" instead of saying John who works in the next cubicle still, etc), I feel a great drive to talk about sex to counter people's collection of myths which demean women or put them in boxes.

[Beautiful sky]

Whew. I feel known now and recognized. When I was discussing sexual relations, i was not doing so with an slant. I think that may have been your interpretation, and it certainly is not something I used to be comfortable with at all. However, as I stated on the other thread, I have become incredibly vocal about sex, being careful to preserve the anonymity of the other participants (even if I'm talking about kissing), because I want the sexual dynamics to change (the inaccurate social ideas and misinformation). I discuss what I prefer and give reasons and specific examples of unpleasant situations, or I'll give examples of me exhibiting the male stereotype and the male the female stereotypes, i.e. sex drive. If found a lot of sexism in discussion of sex, and once I devised ways of getting around my discomfort (only mentioning "an ex" instead of saying John who works in the next cubicle still, etc), I feel a great drive to talk about sex to counter people's collection of myths which demean women or put them in boxes.

Yes, you were very scientific more Se about discussing about sex then in Si manner, I agree.

[nanashi]

So, how that makes you an ILI? Not that ILIs don't use the same approach - logical arguments.
If I was a woman, I'd be probably like you, trumpet egalitarianism and stuff, that I'm with nothing lower than men, by objective means.

You're wrong there, I never heard ILIs to have a problem with social rituals, rather Si/Ne types Irrationals. I think that it's pretty clear that you use wrong definitions of the IEs and types.

slam the door. shut the case. flat out wrong. sorry. [Genie voice]"No refunds." Because you've never heard of it? I hear about it all the time, so that's just our words against each other. I don't think it's pretty clear that I use the wrong definitions of functions or types. Just above, I proved my gamma-ness to Maritsa who doggedly believed I was Alpha or Delta--in one post about my conceptions of and .

I'm the same way, anything is paid back, it's not Fi, but for me it is Ti. There's absolutely no reason for someone to do something for you without requiring anything in return - as far as I view the world. And I have the same insensitivity as you when it comes to people's needs, unless there's a life-or-death matter. Although, you sound so rash that I'd take SLE into consideration .

Well, we (NT) see the rationality of the exchange and share the following 4 out of 11 Reinin dichotomy qualities: democratic, tactical, constructivist, and process. This doesn't mean we're both Alphas.

Me too. Additionally, you probably you relate to lack of diplomacy and call things on their names, as well.

I find all NTs to lack diplomacy and be unwilling to let the Emperor walk by naked, just in different situations.

By your definitions, it is possible that this are different types - Socionics-wise - than how you name them. Do they agree with these typings or are you the only one who judges this?

My definitions of the functions are sound. I am not the only one to have typed the said people, and ENTps have typed me INTP.

I could see this as SEE as well, I don't see the connection with Fe.

Well, SEE's out of the question. This ILE guy is repulsed by Fi appeals from both an IEE and an EII and loathes being around my ESI friend. We get along for a while but fight when my Fi valuing is not met with Fi from him. He's very theoretical and doesn't do the whole sports or exercise thing. He values , even if he isn't great about it.

And btw, it is a big difference between diplomacy and politeness. I'm considered very polite myself in real life by people who don't often deal with me for at least one year. But I'm not diplomatic, when someone tells me something logically incorrect, I point that out, and I'm talking about logical things.

He tries to maintain group emotional state. He's "Let's go get a (food item)," etc. I try to support the individual in whatever they individually value (while being aware of the impact of their beliefs and actions on others during time, etc). I don't like emotional displays.People crying around me causes me discomfort. On the other hand, he drove me all the way to casinos to try to make me feel better when a recent ex was making love to someone else loudly in my house. He tries to evoke positive feelings/emotions . He's insensitive to .

You seem the same way, you stand up for your ideas & stuff, even if sometimes this is in your detriment - unlike ILIs - this is the impression you left me, at least.

causes me to be very independent minded. When it is better for my situation to speak up about my ideals/ideas, I do.Perhaps you're referring to my saying something in another thread when two members were being rude to each other. It is not to my detriment to point out ignoble attacks of members on other members in another thread on a forum I am interested in participating in. ILIs value Fi. It also wasn't aiding their discussion to insult each other. I don't like emotional displays.

This is one of the best depictions of Dual-seeking I heard of. Nicely done. But what makes you think that you'll resist without and someone who can cover these weak points of yours? Are you so tough, or it's just the idea of self-sufficiency and the conviction that you don't need "hate Si"?

I HAVE an SLI roommate, and HE DRIVES ME NUTSSSS!!!!! (echo. echo..echo...) He acts like a martyr, which some Caregiver types are prone to do (not all) probably precisely because they value Si so much and are such hardworkers; he's very...useful, but I require more than that in a mate. We trust each other on a level. We get things done, etc. But I'm bored during interaction with him, and feel like he's blind to the meaning in the social and day-to-day situations around us.

You are young, but you'll see for yourself that you won't resist without someone who take care of you, especially the things you're not interested in, like the daily matters. And that's not SEE . I say "daily" because it appears that you use the term "practical" with a specific meaning, which seems rather with the meaning of "purposeful".

I don't like being taken care of in that sense. I went on dates with a SLI, and I was bored and dead inside. He had his freshly pressed shirt on, was solid, was steady, had his hair cut, and insisted on paying for future dates because I was in school. He had his life all laid out in little boxes. I remember staring across at him being completely unattracted to him. I don't find myself attracted to ISFPs.They seem lacking in independence.
---

Oh, and btw, I have to struggle to find out if I ever heard an ILI to talk about his/her intimate life in public, lol! ILIs are very private and avoid these subjects.

see above reply

I don't see any problem with nanashi being INTp/ILI. She definitely doesn't sound like an ENTp in any way whatsoever.

Yeah. I just talked to my ILE bestfriend a few minutes ago about this thread, and he's like:"You're an INTP."

No Pinocchio, she really is ILI type...that Si, you're mistaking it with Se...she seeks Se. Her valuing of practical/real things with Fi nature is very telling.

nods head.

Yeah I was thinking about this. Although, there are some differences that make sense that one could not dismiss so easily. One of them is that Ti is Static and Te is Dynamic. So this is found beyond Extroversion, I don't know how could I find this in the old concept.
---

Reading Jung, it seems to me that he goes on particular cases, for example his description of IT is likely to depict INT types, than IST as well, especially declaring them lacking practicality and isolating from the society. I'm curious how would he differentiate between INT and IST if he described all the 16 types instead of 8.

You have to admit that by modern standards (I mean MBTI, Keirsey and Socionics), those descriptions are pretty particular and inaccurate. We know that there are even successful and social LIIs with few to none of those problems Jung emphasizes.

Of course, the merit is still there, I don't dispute it, he opened this path for the world, but from then till now things got refined.

My thinking is dynamic. I organize resources and sort them. My ILE friend talks to the landlord, which I avoid. Fe and Ti

Maritsa, you quoted me on the public speaking about the intimate life. Talk to the point and don't ramble, please, do ILIs talk so easily about intimate matters?

Just answer them, don't divert the valid points to irrelevant "no, it's not - yes, it is" bullshit, if you want to address me.

She didn't come off as rambling at all to me.

No they do not.
I can't understand how she can.
But, all the other things in the big picture, indicates her being Gamma, so you gotta trust it for now and see/observe who she gravitates towards.
Just give it some time, I've learned from my duals that the truth always comes out with a little time...

See above response to nanashi's wild exhibitionism of talking about human physical relations on a thread about sex...on a forum about psychology to people who cannot trace her who don't work with her and can't make her life uncomfortable.

Well yeah, but it's a fact. That's not the only thing that made me type her ILE. In the big picture, she appears Extroverted Irrational too - at least.
---

Maritsa mistypes me, so for the other people: think also about the fact that I relate much to what she said, and no ILI seems to relate to that so much, if you think that it helps.
---

@nanashi: if you take all this as an attempt of people to impose their will, you're on the wrong path, IMO. At least me, I'm trying to make you analyze the facts, to think about it, not stick to arbitrary convictions. You have proven that you don't really understand the theory - the information elements, taking them outside of your self-typing issue.

I have several ILE's who like to converse with me. A lot of it is me listening to them and asking them questions. It makes sense that we seem to be similar because our psyches are organized similarly. For instance, we have and. We are perceivers first. We use logical reasoning next. We seek gentle, practical people.

My EII mother was a huge influence on me, and I have two dominant best friends/roommates. I am open to some .

LOL! I'm such an ILI I took apart your post above: "if you take all this as an attempt of people to impose their will, you're wrong"..."I'm trying to make you"...

[Mediator Kam]

I agree, I believe Pinnochio has lost out. There is no doubt in my mind after reading this thread that Nanashi is ILI. Nothing she has written here is attractive to me in the slightest.

[nanashi]

Kamajama,

Non-attraction's cool, but if I said something rude, I beg you, call me out on it or send me a private message. I don't want to have.




I just became a somebody.



"EVERYONE IS MY DUAL AND IN ALL PROBABILITY ARE EGO."

[nanashi]

nanashi, you're so misguided, stubborn and deluded that I don't know what to begin with.

You said I was ILE after I shared my type. I gave my reasons for my conclusion. AND I asked for yours. I stated I was open to being swayed. There is nothing stubborn about that. Wait, I'm deluded. My judgment can't be trusted because I'm an ILE who is brainwashed by Maritsa (whom I just recently met here btw. it's not like we're sisters or something), even though you said yourself you can't be certain of my type because we are just newly introduced online.

OK, I'll start with the simplest issue: Maritsa is a retard, backing you up rather implies your disqualification. This is a bare assertion until you check her posting history, I leave that up to you.

[quote=Pinocchio;661651]
Maritsa, I'm not saying you're a fool about typing, but if you were, your backing me up doesn't prove without a doubt that I am wrong. If you look at the threads I've posted on lately, she kept posting in them about how I am not ILI. She asked me for a VI photo. She asked me to retype myself. I had to read type descriptions. I had to give her a description of and , etc. She wasn't easily convinced. It wasn't until I explained why I talked about sex (the stumbling block in her mind for me being an ILI) that she conceded.

Oh it's pretty obvious that some forum members are not too overly fond of how Maritsa's been interacting with them and others.

Then, you did not prove anything. You're justifying yourself with what you should actually justify! You have to prove that you value Fi, don't value Si and so on, not just assert. You have to prove the types of your friends if you intend to use them as supporting arguments. You use a circular reasoning that embarrasses any person who call him/herself "logical" (as in logic). That means examples, facts, deductions, are you able to do it or do we waste the time for nothing?
Most of what you wrote is based on this circular reasoning, it's not much to answer to.

You hinted that you wanted my friends' types to be proven, since I used them as indicators of my own type in one of your previous posts. This is one reason I provided examples of their personalities coming through their actions instead of just naming them. I can provide more.

Oh really? That means Si-valuing? What about health? I was involved in sports and theoretical pursuits all my life before say 22 or so, and I'm exercising from time to time. I could not conceive a normal life without it, it's only the lack of time that deters me, and I'm not the only ILE I know in this situation.

He exercises from time to time, as well, now, but he only started when he physically needed to and someone explained it to him. What I was trying to indicate was his lack of Se interest in sports.

No, that means that he's insensitive to weak Se. Casinos and such ostentatious and loud places are attracting Se types. Read more about the nature of the information elements.

He's very good at counting cards, so he took me somewhere where he decided he could win money and buy me drinks because I wouldn't argue that he'd slaved away at his job over the money.

So does Ne make one dependent or narrow-minded? It not, what makes you different from that?

No. No. No. You said I couldn't be an ILI because I stood up for my ideas in this forum. I tried to show that both ILIs and ILEs can do this and that I am not ILE just because of it:"My causes me to be very independent minded. When it is better for my situation to speak up about my ideals/ideas, I do.Perhaps you're referring to my saying something in another thread when two members were being rude to each other. It is not to my detriment to point out ignoble attacks of members on other members in another thread on a forum I am interested in participating in. ILIs value Fi. It also wasn't aiding their discussion to insult each other. I don't like emotional displays."

That does not describe the usual SLI. SLIs are usually dressing simple, besides that you're talking about a Rational in this example.

He was dressed simply. No pizazz there. He was wearing a bland collared shirt like he'd wear to his office job.

Bring him here to teach us Socionics, would you?

LOL. He's quite adept in socionics, actually, but don't you think we have an able ILE right here bequeathing his superior knowledge to us already? LOL

Sorting is Ti, if anything.

I was using my memory from this and many other sources: Extraverted Thinking.

No surprise, you partially share the same reality.

I would with an EII regardless of whether I was ILE or ILI. Except, I would be able to be gentle to an EII and to explain my thought process to one if I was ILI, but I would be perceiving like an EII and Si-seeking if I was ILE.

LOL, and this is Ni? Ok...

"Introverted Intuition is a way of orienting yourself to your environment by consciously attending to the expected interpretations of things. In this manner of orientation, you hold agnostic about whether those interpretations are true. You view them as expected interpretations, nothing more. Your world is a world of expected interpretations defined by others; you navigate through those interpretations and use them without regard to whether they're true, always keeping the interpretations separate in your mind from the actual objects."
Introverted Intuition

Anyway, anyone involving in discussions is trying to make others think something, why are you here then?

A)To listen to you knowledgeable people (whom I respect) and add your insight to my own. To do this, I have to question any posits of yours which conflict with my own prior conclusions, while being open to yours. If you can answer all of my questions with concrete proof and show me I have been blind, I'll move on over. I try to see what gave you the perspective on the subject you have, and sometimes you've processed something (because of your own life experience and psyche organization) and arrived at a different conclusion. With Maritsa, I concluded that I needed to explain the very-ILI reason I would talk about sex.
B) I was here on this thread to ask about SEE lifestyle...actually....

The difference is that I'm trying to make people think and reach their conclusions logically, while the most (including you) try to impose their view using fallacious appeals.

I, too, want this to be a learning experience, not a war of power, which is why I posted responses with my reasoning shown. Which of my appeals are fallacious? I need to clean them up if there were any.

Good point! You are now supporting my consistency - because I type you for a long time as an Fi type. It's no doubt that you don't like her as you don't like me and other forum true Alphas.

It seems that you don't like me, Pinocchio. You're all and and leaving.

She could also dislike NTs.

Or she may find the two of us rude.

The only reason I have to dislike nanashi is arrogance over ignorance, reason which I'm already notorious for, am I not?
Thanks for your support, Kama!
---

I have a problem with being arrogant occasionally. I would deeply appreciate your pointing out to me where I was arrogant when you have the time. I despise the quality, and I apologize to everyone on the thread for it. I am not ignorant. Even if I am, teach me. Other NTs can be thought of as arrogant, not just ENTPs.

Anyway, I'll retread from this discussion, good luck in your "anti-sexist" Dual seeking pursuit.

why are you referring to it that way? You said you'd be anti-sexist yourself if you were female in this culture. (note nanashi's appeal)

You think you're ILI, I think you're not ILI. Over.

Perhaps one of us will see it differently eventually


btw, this is how my battles of will and reasoning go down with my ILE friends/ex boyfriend....

initially I greatly respect them. We talk for a bit. We both don't support each other. (Extinguishment relationships) We leave feeling


Don'tcha'll say I don't talk (collapses)

[nanashi]

"Said the supremacist Se valuer".

This is hilarious .

I really don't understand. If this is about my apology, I was raised by an EII, and I don't want to be an ass. I don't like interpersonal spats. I like arguing about ideas.
BUT
If this is about the quote on the bottom of the page, I was using a humorous slant, responding to the fact that Kamajama MAY have been insulting me when saying nothing I wrote was at all attractive while Kamajama has this signature line declaring that EVERYONE is Kamajama's dual. I, thus, am not everyone, so I am now someone. I just became a somebody.

[Aiss]

That explains a lot. Those descriptions depict the Socionics functions rather opposite. Socionics functions and MBTI functions are not the same thing, Socionics and MBTI are not the same thing.
Aiss was right, you are talking in MBTI. This is the number one rule when you come from MBTI to Socionics: they're not the same thing, you will learn this in time, unless you're Maritsa or Timeless.

In MBTI both ENTp and INTp use Introverted Thinking. You say that in MBTI you are rather INTj - using the Extraverted Thinking - but those descriptions are MBTI, they are incompatible with Socionics and they don't represent Ti and Te at all.

(...)

Alright, that's a pretty good Ni description, but it's not your Ego Intuition. Not only because you are clearly a Ti type - therefore impossible - but because you don't understand what that means.

Actually Lenore Thompson's ideas and more common MBTI interpretation of functions are different things, too. I suppose there may be more correlation (function-wise) with the former and socionics than between the two, but I wouldn't say it's one-to-one, either.

One way or another, using these functions as socionics information elements isn't a good idea, in general. The typologies aren't exactly compatible, probably because Lenore and Augusta looked at different aspects of personality despite superficially similar focus on perception, or at least because interpretations of Lenore's writing took a different turn. While the snippet about Ni is pretty good, this one about Ne would work even better for Ni:

Extraverted Intuition seems to be about forming a larger context based on specific experiences and their emerging relations to one another. My main argument is that there isn't enough emphasis on how this process evolves, both on an individual level, and on the the level of collective knowledge that we learn within a group.

Which is of course only Proposed definition # 5, but it serves as an example of incompatibility.

For the record, he's a male. And no, he doesn't, afaik, and he also used to dream of his Dual - allegedly ILE because he sticks stubbornly to his conviction that he's an SEI, although it was demonstrated that he's not, but an EXI.

(...)

There is an IEE like that on this forum, coincidentally she types herself as ILI - it's unjust to call her "illogical" cause she's a woman, right?

The fact that I'm not sexist is the reason why I'm not anti-sexist, this issue doesn't exist for me and I'm against both positions. There is a multitude of reasons to fallaciously judge people, why would sexism have priority in being refuted?

... you might have noticed by now you aren't the only one being retyped by Pinocchio, but for the record: a lot of other people who didn't get mentioned here are, it's nothing to worry about - though probably worth considering, if only to further the understanding.

[Aiss]

About this, my gf gave me an example: driving a bus without a license when the original driver fainted away or had a heart attack. Should you be punished or the good deed compensates? Strict uncompromising Ti would punish the infraction, then reward the good deed separately, unless there are exceptions for these cases. For example self-defense is such an exception for hurting someone.

This is exactly what I thought re-reading parts of ASOIAF recently... I don't know if you're familiar with the series, but Ti vs Fi valuing is very clearly depicted there - though probably still not so much as Se/Ni vs Si/Ne - especially between particular characters, two of whom I type LSI and ESI. The former demonstrates the exact approach you describe as Ti here... justice alone, both punishment and reward in extraordinary situation. Of course fiction often depicts values more clearly than they're seen in real life, since characters are overdrawn to begin with, but as you're speaking of allegories, it's a fitting example.

Re: your typings - I hope it's clear I still disagree with many of them. Though working out why they don't work helps.

[nanashi]

awesome pic. I'm curious to see more of her work. I keeping watching her in The Long, Hot Summer.


I think Cool Hand Luke may be my favorite movie.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

usually when people on this site insist like crazy on being ILI they turn out IEI. (although you do sound ILI in contrast to crazedrat and lord java the 3rd)

[Beautiful sky]

Paul Neuman is ESTp
Girl next to him is either INFj or ISFp

[nanashi]

hmmm....he seems pretty Fi oriented in his movie roles. I've watched a lot of them. Joanne Woodward, the woman in the photo, is frequently typed as a T. A lot of times, she plays the harsh, shy, control-focused woman to his charming hardworker man in the movies. He seems to display Gamma values.

[Beautiful sky]

hmmm....he seems pretty Fi oriented in his movie roles. I've watched a lot of them. Joanne Woodward, the woman in the photo, is frequently typed as a T. A lot of times, she plays the harsh, shy, control-focused woman to his charming hardworker man in the movies. He seems to display Gamma values.

What do you see that you equate with Fi particularly?

[Beautiful sky]

Sorting is Ti, if anything.

What are you talking about for God's sake, ILI can very well sort and organize; organizing is as much Te as anything. Te kind of organization requires work which is something that Ti don't do as well as Te. Ti is more categories and systems, more of defining a term and building rules of doing things.

Leave her alone, and go learn socionics and how to type before you pick at her.