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Thread: Ne-ego/Childlike type trust issues

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    The only thing I can think of is that it may take true maturity (living life and aging) for people to have an understanding of people's characters. I know I can be distrustful of people - and paranoid - but I'll keep my feelings to myself. I know that I could be misreading a situation and I'll know that I'm not being fair to the other person. But unless I'm really upset due to some other reason I rarely fly off the handle and project my feelings on others. Maybe it has something to do with being a 9w1 E-type? I dunno; it's hard to say.

    People usually say I'm too nice, but it does surprise them when I suddenly snap.

    Just my two cents, tho', and I'll still feeling the waters for my type. I'll let others weigh in.

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    dun know anymre
    Last edited by kalinoche; 12-29-2013 at 05:48 PM.
    unholy water sanguine addiction

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    I have an IEE friend. She's a great person at her core, but she seems to be very bad at judging people's characters. She has gotten associated with the wrong people before, hung out with the wrong crowd, and gotten into trouble with drugs, shoplifting/stealing, etc. She can be very wreckless, short-sighted, and "carefree" by the Reinin dichotomy.
    Type-unrelated, methinks.


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    She's doing better now, but I still recognize her underlying weakness: a tendency to trust everyone.
    "Minus-Fi" could be characterized as "the implied incompleteness of an object". Your observation of someone's "underlying weakness" indicates "minus-Fi". Are you sure you aren't Alpha or Gamma?


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    She gets more excited by the potential of a relationship turning out well than realizing what someone's motivations are.
    Are you saying that her friends "tricked" her into doing drugs and shoplifting?


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    I'd like to talk about weak Se in Delta NFs. To me, it seems like weak Se tends to, like any other POLR, come across very polarizing - extremely bent one way or the other. Some Delta NFs seem to be extremely trustful, while others seem to be extremely distrustful.
    "Weak Se" for me is "difficulty in describing an object's physical characteristics". There might be some behaviors that accompany it, but I don't think paranoia is one of them. By the way, I know you got the idea of "polarizing" from POLR.


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    This polarizing effect of weak Se seems to be present in Alpha NTs as well. Alpha NTs seem to design elaborate, intricate systems, based around an extreme trust or distrust of other people.
    The following is LII presenting one of his elaborate AND intricate systems:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLJa6RoCAhw

    How does that have anything to do with trust?


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    They seem to generalize human behavior in a framework they understand, but seem unable to delve into the specific actions/reactions and physical cues or body language that may seem more indicative of a person's personality/motives.
    "Actions/reactions", "physical cues", and "body language" together suggest to me that you value and are possibly strong in plus-Se, which is the perception of "Explicit Object Statics". "Personality/motives" suggests an inclination toward Fi.


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Consequently, both Alpha NTs and Delta NFs seem to make interpersonal mistakes. But especially, Delta NFs, how can this be?
    Because so do Alpha SFs and Beta STs and Beta NFs and Gamma SFs and Gamma NTs and Delta STs, for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    The stereotype, it seems to me, is that Delta NFs tend to smooth over the ethical mistakes of the uncaring Delta STs. But in reality, it seems that specific Delta NFs, especially INFjs, can actually be quite stubborn, pigheaded, and difficult to deal with. It seems that the opposite is true - ESTjs and ISTps are actually more tactful and polite when interacting with strangers, while Delta NFs can get worn out easily and come across rude, grouchy, and snappy. I've often had to correct ethical mistakes made by Delta NFs, and I've seen ISTps be very calming to the interpersonal woes of ENFps.
    I'm only rude, grouchy, and snappy when other people are disrespectful or condescending.


    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    How can Infantiles/Ne egos make so many mistakes in judgment of people? I've seen the definition of Extroverted Intuition, , say that Ne can see exactly how revealing another person is, and determine how open the other person is. Ne can determine someone's motives. But isn't Se a better judge of that?
    Throw out your old ideas about "Ne", because "the essence of an object" is Aushra Augusta's skewed conception of it. Even though she self-typed as ILE, I think she was secretly an Fi-valuer. "Fi" means "Implicit Object Statics", and you can think of it as the warm, mushy notion of "personal feelings" in a sort of fundamental way. Delta NFs are strong in "plus-Fi", which can be thought of as "the implied completeness of an object". If I say, "William seems to be a talented liar", I am essentially switching out "William" with "talented liar" and saying, "this is him!" The "essence of an object" is its "implied completeness".

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    Suspicious of people's intentions and trusting them are two different things in my opinion. EII are very suspicious of other's intentions towards them so shy away from most people. Trust is when I say something to someone I've known for 4 years and they still don't believe me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post

    I'd like to talk about weak Se in Delta NFs. To me, it seems like weak Se tends to, like any other POLR, come across very polarizing - extremely bent one way or the other. Some Delta NFs seem to be extremely trustful, while others seem to be extremely distrustful.

    Consequently, both Alpha NTs and Delta NFs seem to make interpersonal mistakes. But especially, Delta NFs, how can this be?

    The stereotype, it seems to me, is that Delta NFs tend to smooth over the ethical mistakes of the uncaring Delta STs. But in reality, it seems that specific Delta NFs, especially INFjs, can actually be quite stubborn, pigheaded, and difficult to deal with. It seems that the opposite is true - ESTjs and ISTps are actually more tactful and polite when interacting with strangers, while Delta NFs can get worn out easily and come across rude, grouchy, and snappy. I've often had to correct ethical mistakes made by Delta NFs, and I've seen ISTps be very calming to the interpersonal woes of ENFps.


    What are you experiences observing weak Se in Infantiles? Have you witnessed the polarizing nature of trust/distrust in them? How common is this in Ni egos as well - why does it seem intuitives in general make blanket assumptions about people which can often be incorrect?
    One must never forget that Fi is subjective feeling. It has to do with likes and dislikes, ethical convictions, and value systems. EIIs have ignoring Fe, which means that they ignore the objective emotional atmosphere, instead favoring what they are subjectively feeling. IEEs have demonstrative Fe, which means they mock the objective emotional atmosphere.

    Here's a situation from my life. (Assuming I'm an IEE instead of an ILE, for the moment). I go to a Beta dance party. There's an artist, say...Lady Gaga, playing there, who I don't like. Everyone is meeting the emotional atmosphere, ignoring their personal feelings because everybody else is having fun. Me, though, my subjective unhappiness is bleeding through, because I don't like the music.

    IEEs and EIIs, because their own subjective emotions are so "loud", can often blatantly disregard the emotional atmosphere. If they are feeling grouchy at a wedding or giddy at a funeral, they're probably going to continue to act that way.

    Te users, on the other hand, often will follow professional, rule-based, "codes of conduct". It's more informational than ethical, but it can make them seem more polite than the Delta NFs.

    As for Alpha NTs, the problem is pretty much the same. Ti Ego causes you to ignore or mockingly denigrate factual reality. This is how they can build logically consistent sky castles which aren't grounded in the real world.

    On trust and distrust: super ego Se makes you struggle with power dynamics. So Ne egos will often start out naive (hence infantile), and then, if they get huckstered or played, will go to absolute cynicism. Both approaches are reductive, and based fundamentally on a sort of flattening affect when it comes to power. I know that I've used my Se role in a sort of counterphobic "hit first" kind of way recently, much to my detriment, because I've been afraid of being manipulated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoobie77 View Post
    One must never forget that Fi is subjective feeling. It has to do with likes and dislikes, ethical convictions, and value systems. EIIs have ignoring Fe, which means that they ignore the objective emotional atmosphere, instead favoring what they are subjectively feeling. IEEs have demonstrative Fe, which means they mock the objective emotional atmosphere.

    Here's a situation from my life. (Assuming I'm an IEE instead of an ILE, for the moment). I go to a Beta dance party. There's an artist, say...Lady Gaga, playing there, who I don't like. Everyone is meeting the emotional atmosphere, ignoring their personal feelings because everybody else is having fun. Me, though, my subjective unhappiness is bleeding through, because I don't like the music.

    IEEs and EIIs, because their own subjective emotions are so "loud", can often blatantly disregard the emotional atmosphere. If they are feeling grouchy at a wedding or giddy at a funeral, they're probably going to continue to act that way.

    Te users, on the other hand, often will follow professional, rule-based, "codes of conduct". It's more informational than ethical, but it can make them seem more polite than the Delta NFs.

    As for Alpha NTs, the problem is pretty much the same. Ti Ego causes you to ignore or mockingly denigrate factual reality. This is how they can build logically consistent sky castles which aren't grounded in the real world.

    On trust and distrust: super ego Se makes you struggle with power dynamics. So Ne egos will often start out naive (hence infantile), and then, if they get huckstered or played, will go to absolute cynicism. Both approaches are reductive, and based fundamentally on a sort of flattening affect when it comes to power. I know that I've used my Se role in a sort of counterphobic "hit first" kind of way recently, much to my detriment, because I've been afraid of being manipulated.
    You're so EII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoobie77 View Post
    One must never forget that Fi is subjective feeling. It has to do with likes and dislikes, ethical convictions, and value systems. EIIs have ignoring Fe, which means that they ignore the objective emotional atmosphere, instead favoring what they are subjectively feeling. IEEs have demonstrative Fe, which means they mock the objective emotional atmosphere.

    Here's a situation from my life. (Assuming I'm an IEE instead of an ILE, for the moment). I go to a Beta dance party. There's an artist, say...Lady Gaga, playing there, who I don't like. Everyone is meeting the emotional atmosphere, ignoring their personal feelings because everybody else is having fun. Me, though, my subjective unhappiness is bleeding through, because I don't like the music.

    IEEs and EIIs, because their own subjective emotions are so "loud", can often blatantly disregard the emotional atmosphere. If they are feeling grouchy at a wedding or giddy at a funeral, they're probably going to continue to act that way.

    Te users, on the other hand, often will follow professional, rule-based, "codes of conduct". It's more informational than ethical, but it can make them seem more polite than the Delta NFs.

    As for Alpha NTs, the problem is pretty much the same. Ti Ego causes you to ignore or mockingly denigrate factual reality. This is how they can build logically consistent sky castles which aren't grounded in the real world.

    On trust and distrust: super ego Se makes you struggle with power dynamics. So Ne egos will often start out naive (hence infantile), and then, if they get huckstered or played, will go to absolute cynicism. Both approaches are reductive, and based fundamentally on a sort of flattening affect when it comes to power. I know that I've used my Se role in a sort of counterphobic "hit first" kind of way recently, much to my detriment, because I've been afraid of being manipulated.
    Yes, I subjectively feel sad despite an environment which dictates that I should behave in an acceptable manner, hence I show my anger and frustration, sometimes trying very hard to keep things locked but that doesn't work out very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    You're so EII.
    No he/she is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Yes, I subjectively feel sad despite an environment which dictates that I should behave in an acceptable manner, hence I show my anger and frustration, sometimes trying very hard to keep things locked but that doesn't work out very well.
    "Sadness", "anger", and "frustration" are all "emotions" and are therefore Fe-related. Contrast with the Fi-related "feelings" of "sorrow", "hatred", and "despair". Emotions are like flash floods or dust devils; feelings are like a molten core or a boiling cauldron. "Environment which dictates that I should behave in an acceptable manner" indicates Fe-valuing.

    EDITED PORTION
    Just had to add this: "feelings" are kinda like "cemented emotions".


    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    No he/she is not.
    No, you/you are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    "Sadness", "anger", and "frustration" are all "emotions" and are therefore Fe-related. Contrast with the Fi-related "feelings" of "sorrow", "hatred", and "despair". Emotions are like flash floods or dust devils; feelings are like a molten core or a boiling cauldron. "Environment which dictates that I should behave in an acceptable manner" indicates Fe-valuing.

    EDITED PORTION
    Just had to add this: "feelings" are kinda like "cemented emotions".




    No, you/you are not.
    Reread....

    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Ti/Te functions are concerned abou1t the right/wrong-ness of systems, while Fi/Fe functions are concerned about the right/wrongness of deeds.
    Ti = "Implicit Relation Statics"
    Te = "Explicit Object Dynamics"
    Fi = "Implicit Object Statics"
    Fe = "Explicit Relation Dynamics"

    In this system, Te and Fe clash because both perceive the explicit dynamics of "things", but one is oriented toward objects, while the other, toward fields. Fi matches well with Te because Fi is also oriented toward objects, and Ti pairs up with Fe because it too is oriented toward fields, and Fi and Ti clash because both perceive implicit statics, but one is oriented toward objects, while the other, fields.

    EDITED PORTION
    Instead of "clash", you might say "repel".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes Bloem View Post
    "Sadness", "anger", and "frustration" are all "emotions" and are therefore Fe-related. Contrast with the Fi-related "feelings" of "sorrow", "hatred", and "despair". Emotions are like flash floods or dust devils; feelings are like a molten core or a boiling cauldron. "Environment which dictates that I should behave in an acceptable manner" indicates Fe-valuing.
    ^This doesn't really sound correct. Except the last statement.
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    ^This doesn't really sound correct. Except the last statement.
    "Doesn't really sound correct" does not fly with me. If you're going to say I'm wrong, make sure to demonstrate exactly how.

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    Nah, I'm not in the mood right now.


    And you catch more flies with honey then vinegar.
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    Nah, I'm not in the mood right now.
    That sounds like something a dynamic ego would say.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    And you catch more flies with honey then vinegar.
    But I'm not trying to catch the flies. I'm trying to kill them.

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    @William take 2 (I promise it will stay!). This is just my perspective (self-typed IEE):

    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    I have an IEE friend. She's a great person at her core, but she seems to be very bad at judging people's characters. She has gotten associated with the wrong people before, hung out with the wrong crowd, and gotten into trouble with drugs, shoplifting/stealing, etc. She can be very wreckless, short-sighted, and "carefree" by the Reinin dichotomy. She's doing better now, but I still recognize her underlying weakness: a tendency to trust everyone. She gets more excited by the potential of a relationship turning out well than realizing what someone's motivations are.
    When I hang out with the *wrong* people, I am more than likely fully aware of their character, but I see those other parts that you don't see. It is not as much a matter of trust (I don't think delta NFs trust easily), but a matter of the potential you mention. I see dimensions about people that you don't see, so I give them the benefit of the doubt, invest time and effort to understand their complexity, and try to make sense of my bond with them. That does not mean I trust them unless they are in my inner circle. If they are, I will be loyal to a fault because the relationship is important to me. That might also mean I hang on longer than is good for me.

    I'd like to talk about weak Se in Delta NFs. To me, it seems like weak Se tends to, like any other POLR, come across very polarizing - extremely bent one way or the other. Some Delta NFs seem to be extremely trustful, while others seem to be extremely distrustful.
    I was far more trusting when I was younger than I am now and I think it's really only a matter of self-preservation. I have developed my Se to better handle things in the moment and with immediacy, including more controlled ways of protecting my boundaries in the moment (rather than becoming overtly angry). But I am not sure weak Se has to do with trusting or not. I think that is more a matter of life experience maybe? Not sure, will think about it more.

    Consequently, both Alpha NTs and Delta NFs seem to make interpersonal mistakes. But especially, Delta NFs, how can this be?
    I don't know if I, from a NeFi perspective, consider them mistakes. Have I associated with the wrong people and made mistakes? Absolutely I have, but you can't be perceptive of people's potential and keep yourself safe at all times. NeFi is good at assessing people's potential, but it does not read minds. I can see and appreciate potential in a person and might want to help to unleash it, but I can't know the person in question is just using me. Forget the NeFi laser beam of understanding people and their essence. It does not work like that. It understands people's complexities, but it's also risky business because it shifts our attention away from the *shady* sides of people that others zero in on and subsequently protect themselves from.

    The stereotype, it seems to me, is that Delta NFs tend to smooth over the ethical mistakes of the uncaring Delta STs. But in reality, it seems that specific Delta NFs, especially INFjs, can actually be quite stubborn, pigheaded, and difficult to deal with.
    I don't think I smooth over ethical mistakes for my dual. I am also not sure what you mean by ethical mistake, to be honest. And I would not consider myself particularly stubborn. I am really quite flexible, but I will let others be the judge of that.

    It seems that the opposite is true - ESTjs and ISTps are actually more tactful and polite when interacting with strangers, while Delta NFs can get worn out easily and come across rude, grouchy, and snappy. I've often had to correct ethical mistakes made by Delta NFs, and I've seen ISTps be very calming to the interpersonal woes of ENFps.
    Yes, I can get worn out because sometimes the constant preoccupation with people and their relationships gets exhausting. I can get snappy and grouchy. Man, try to be preoccupied with people and relationships 24/7. It wears you out! I retreat and just go into hiding from everyone for a bit.

    And my dual is very calming to my interpersonal woes. They put their foot down and tell me *stop dealing with that person. They are not good for you. Enough already!*. I love having someone in my life who is protective of me in that way because for reasons mentioned herein, I sometimes have a hard time protecting myself from people and relationships that are not good for me.

    How can Infantiles/Ne egos make so many mistakes in judgment of people? I've seen the definition of Extroverted Intuition, , say that Ne can see exactly how revealing another person is, and determine how open the other person is. Ne can determine someone's motives. But isn't Se a better judge of that?
    They are not mistakes, just considerations of the many many many sides of people. Ne cannot determine someone's motives. That's a myth. Ne sees complexity and will reveal things about a person that you don't see as easily. I don't think any function can reveal motivations. Generally we make too many assumptions about people's motivations.

    How can humanitarians make fundamentally wrong judgments about people, and how can Alpha NTs design such elaborate systems which are fundamentally flawed, based upon wrong assumptions about people?
    Not wrong assumptions, just different and more complex ones.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    And you catch more flies with honey then vinegar.
    This doesn't really make sense to me. Gnats are tiny flies, right? I had a gnat problem a few weeks ago and, after much googling, decided to set out some apple cider vinegar with a bit of dish soap in it. The theory is that the vinegar attracts the gnats and the soap makes it so that they can't get out of the liquid. After a week of having this concoction setting out, I threw it away and gnats are gone.

    I caught plenty of flies with vinegar. Would it have worked better with honey?

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    It couldn't hurt to try, right?.

    If he really wanted my opinion he could have been more conversational, and I could have been more receptive. Sometimes I am grouchy. It happened, so now we are here.

    No one is perfect, William. Do what you can for your friends at work. Try giving him a Fi hit by directly saying to him: "you are being paranoid", or, "you have a lot of anger", or, "why are you being this way?", or"why don't you trust people?". If he's Fi-dom, these will plant a seed in his brain. Maybe he would trust you simply over the show of concern.
    Last edited by wacey; 12-28-2013 at 06:41 PM. Reason: You know what? I had a think over it and I wanted to point out that I too have been a bowl of vinegar many times in my life.
    "Traffic lights and loneliness. Paper cans and tape cassettes. When the world feels like this. Static shocks and bitterness."

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    So, my LSI friend picked me up for dinner a few nights ago. He and I have known each other for 4 years now. When he parked the car he asked me to if I would check to see that his car bumper didn't pass the red painted pavement. I got out and checked and I told him "you're perfectly parked." Even after having said this to him, he still get out and check. I got kind of offended that I wasn't trusted so I said "you should trust me. I've never said anything to you in our 4 years of friendship that would not make you trust what I just said to you. Do you think I would want you to not be parked well?" He said "it's not about trust...I'm the one who will get a ticket and will have to pay for it and not you." I said, "yes, while that may be true, it still has to do with you trusting me that what I see and tell you through my eyes should be the same thing that you see as well." Then I proceeded to point out a car that was poorly parked and I said "see..that guy shouldn't trust his friend" H doesn't get my mild mannered humor and I get annoyed at his inability to reciprocate the vision within himself. It's all good though. He's a very nice person.

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