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Thread: Article: Examination of Gender Roles by Sociotype by E. Filatova

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    Default Article: Examination of Gender Roles by Sociotype by E. Filatova

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    This is pretty interesting. It's all fairly straightforward and common sense stuff, but it's a good read nonetheless.

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    To summarize, in Filatova's perception:

    Most to least masculine types:
    +3: SLE, LSI, LIE, LSE, SLI
    +2: ESI, LII, SEE
    +1: ILE, ESE
    =0: ILI
    -1: SEI
    -2: EIE, EII, IEE
    -3: IEI

    Most to least feminine types:
    +3: SEI, ESE, IEI, EIE, SEE, EII, IEE
    +2: ESI
    +1:
    =0: LSI, ILI, LSE, SLI
    -1: ILE, LII, SLE, LIE
    -2:
    -3:

    Looks like Filatova didn't want to disparage any of the women reading her article and distributed positive scores to most of the types. The scores that I would disagree with are IEIs being more masculine than SEIs and EIIs, ESIs being most masculine of all IxFx types, and IEEs being more masculine than SEEs. In this sense I agree more with Gulenko's assignments (link).

    Most masculine types: SLE, SLI, LII, LIE
    Intermediary types, masculine predominates: IEI, IEE, ESE, ESI
    Intermediary types, feminine predominates: LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE
    Most feminine types: EII, EIE, SEE, SEI


    why did this article post in Article instead of Article Commentary forum @hkkmr?
    Last edited by silke; 12-17-2013 at 08:25 AM.

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    The scores that I would disagree with are IEIs being more masculine than SEIs and EIIs
    You meant less, right? Because IEI have -3 as score and SEI and EII -1 and -2.

    ESIs being most masculine of all IxFx types
    Why not? They're the only ones with Se, and their feeling is introverted, so they may often play the role of the "strong and silent type" (depending on their upbringing, ofc.).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You meant less, right? Because IEI have -3 as score and SEI and EII -1 and -2.
    No, I meant more. Those scores were assigned by Filatova and what I was talking comes from personal experience. In relationships with ILEs and LSEs, the IEIs receive various remarks from them about how to be 'more feminine' which I have discussed with IEI posters on the Russian socionics forums. Their responses have confirmed that in both Mirage and Conflict relations the femininity of IEI is lower than what is expected by her ILE or LSE partner. Thus the rankings of femininity for introverted ethical types would be:

    EII > SEI > IEI > ESI

    With the EII being the girly girl type, and the ESI being the slightly tomboyish girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why not? They're the only ones with Se, and their feeling is introverted, so they may often play the role of the "strong and silent type" (depending on their upbringing, ofc.).
    why not? if that in any way emasculates their LIE partners

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    No, I meant more. Those scores were assigned by Filatova and what I was talking comes from personal experience. In relationships with ILEs and LSEs, the IEIs receive various remarks from them about how to be 'more feminine' which I have discussed with IEI posters on the Russian socionics forums. Their responses have confirmed that in both Mirage and Conflict relations the femininity of IEI is lower than what is expected by her ILE or LSE partner. Thus the rankings of femininity for introverted ethical types would be:

    EII > SEI > IEI > ESI

    With the EII being the girly girl type, and the ESI being the slightly tomboyish girl.
    Okay, I understand your point now, I re-read gulenko's classification and it seems to be based on similar observations.

    why not? if that in any way emasculates their LIE partners
    Well, if they're male ESIs, I don't think their female partners mind being emasculated - if that can be applicable to a woman.

    Perhaps you're referring to the femminity scale. I'd then argue that you can't really use "more masculine" but you'd rather have to say "less feminine", since there's two explictly separated scales.
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Thus the rankings of femininity for introverted ethical types would be:

    EII > SEI > IEI > ESI

    Funny, my gut feeling would put both XEIs ahead of EXIs in feminity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Funny, my gut feeling would put both XEIs ahead of EXIs in feminity.
    I think it depends what you think is more "feminine" or "has a higher EQ" - someone who is harmonious and diplomatic, or someone who has a strong moral core.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    To summarize, in Filatova's perception:

    Most to least masculine types:
    +3: SLE, LSI, LIE, LSE, SLI
    +2: ESI, LII, SEE
    +1: ILE, ESE
    =0: ILI
    -1: SEI
    -2: EIE, EII, IEE
    -3: IEI

    Most to least feminine types:
    +3: SEI, ESE, IEI, EIE, SEE, EII, IEE
    +2: ESI
    +1:
    =0: LSI, ILI, LSE, SLI
    -1: ILE, LII, SLE, LIE
    -2:
    -3:

    Looks like Filatova didn't want to disparage any of the women reading her article and distributed positive scores to most of the types. The scores that I would disagree with are IEIs being more masculine than SEIs and EIIs, ESIs being most masculine of all IxFx types, and IEEs being more masculine than SEEs. In this sense I agree more with Gulenko's assignments (link).

    Most masculine types: SLE, SLI, LII, LIE
    Intermediary types, masculine predominates: IEI, IEE, ESE, ESI
    Intermediary types, feminine predominates: LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE
    Most feminine types: EII, EIE, SEE, SEI


    why did this article post in Article instead of Article Commentary forum @hkkmr?
    I think maybe article comments for this article is linked to the thread and it might have been moved.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    No, I meant more. Those scores were assigned by Filatova and what I was talking comes from personal experience. In relationships with ILEs and LSEs, the IEIs receive various remarks from them about how to be 'more feminine' which I have discussed with IEI posters on the Russian socionics forums. Their responses have confirmed that in both Mirage and Conflict relations the femininity of IEI is lower than what is expected by her ILE or LSE partner. Thus the rankings of femininity for introverted ethical types would be:

    EII > SEI > IEI > ESI

    With the EII being the girly girl type, and the ESI being the slightly tomboyish girl.


    why not? if that in any way emasculates their LIE partners
    IEI's are feminine on the outside but they tend to have a aggression and fickleness in relationships which imo make them seem more masculine. The DS function of IEI give them a opportunistic attitude sometimes with relationships always keeping a eye open for a more powerful and interesting partner. Also house work(because a lot of ppl think this is feminine)...
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    Harmful stereotypes. Conflation of dimensions results in less understood/accepted ways of being. Can be a a self fulfilling prophecy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    To summarize, in Filatova's perception:

    Most to least masculine types:
    +3: SLE, LSI, LIE, LSE, SLI
    +2: ESI, LII, SEE
    +1: ILE, ESE
    =0: ILI
    -1: SEI
    -2: EIE, EII, IEE
    -3: IEI

    Most to least feminine types:
    +3: SEI, ESE, IEI, EIE, SEE, EII, IEE
    +2: ESI
    +1:
    =0: LSI, ILI, LSE, SLI
    -1: ILE, LII, SLE, LIE
    -2:
    -3:

    Looks like Filatova didn't want to disparage any of the women reading her article and distributed positive scores to most of the types. The scores that I would disagree with are IEIs being more masculine than SEIs and EIIs, ESIs being most masculine of all IxFx types, and IEEs being more masculine than SEEs. In this sense I agree more with Gulenko's assignments (link).

    Most masculine types: SLE, SLI, LII, LIE
    Intermediary types, masculine predominates: IEI, IEE, ESE, ESI
    Intermediary types, feminine predominates: LSE, LSI, ILI, ILE
    Most feminine types: EII, EIE, SEE, SEI


    why did this article post in Article instead of Article Commentary forum @hkkmr?
    Gulenkos approach is a systematic approach where result is more maculin than process and logic more masculin than ethics while Filatovas approach is about her own perception of the types. I like the results from Filatova more.

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    I don't really agree with these judgments of type. I do, however, have my own conception of masculinity and femininity, but not judging by behavior. According to the idea of the stereotypical male mindset, in which an individual is geared more toward technical subjects cognitively and less inclined toward communication and ease of human connection, I rate types with creative thinking as being the most cognitively masculine. More specifically, negativitist creative thinkers tend to be the most separate from groups and disinclined toward human connection and relationships. There are a number of qualities which modify this, such as actual gender and the presence of a disorder like Aspergers Syndrome. Positivist creative feelers are conversely the most cognitively feminine. Don't get me wrong though. I'm not saying that exemplars of these types cannot possess strengths that don't align with this idea. NCTs (negativitist creative thinkers) are often suspiciously good with people when they feel like it, and PCFs are often rather clever with things one would consider to be the domain of NCTs. These are simply general trends I've noticed. And really, they make quite a good deal of sense, considering that all creative thinkers have a weakness in the area of feeling.

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    I'll take the traditional feminine role.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    My ranking would be:

    Most masculine
    1. LSI +2
    2. SLI +2
    3. SLE +2
    4. LIE +2
    5. SEE +1
    6. LSE +1
    7. ESI +1
    8. SEI 0
    9. ESE 0
    10. ILI 0
    11. LII 0
    12. ILE 0
    13. IEE -1
    14. EIE -1
    15. EII -2
    16. IEI -2




    Most feminine


    1. ESE +2
    2. SEI +2
    3. EII +2
    4. IEI +2
    5. IEE +2
    6. ESI +1
    7. EIE +1
    8. SEE +1
    9. LSE +1
    10. ILI 0
    11. SLI 0
    12. LSI -1
    13. LII -2
    14. SLE -2
    15. ILE -2
    16. LIE -2
    Last edited by DaftPunk; 12-23-2013 at 01:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    actually you're right

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    I'd just like to point out that we can assign what we perceive is our society's most recent mythos of a "female set of behaviors" or a "male set of behaviors," but if we ACTUALLY think these things--ways of being, behaviors, primary function usages--are more or less of the female sort or of the male sort, we're engaging in unscientific mass generalizations which, strangely ignore the basis of the theory we're dealing with...the idea that it's similar psyche functions that are being utilized by similar brains which often result in similar behaviors.
    INTp-Te E5w6 sx/so

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    This works for me. I was always very comfortable being a girl and feminine, so +3 sounds right. My brothers on the other hand are also all +3 for guys: ESTJ, ExTJ, ISTp. I liked being the "different" one growing up (most of the time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    ==ESIs being most masculine of all IxFx types==

    Why not? They're the only ones with Se, and their feeling is introverted, so they may often play the role of the "strong and silent type" (depending on their upbringing, ofc.).
    This is true ime. I have met EIIs who were hormonally "macho" enough, so to speak, but their preference for Ne gave them a mindset that I would consider more feminine (less aggressive, less pragmatic, more understanding of nuances and perspective and so on).

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    I don't think types can be considered masculine or feminine really, but if there is anything, probably Beta and Gamma are more masculine and Alpha and Delta are more feminine because of the Se in the former quadras and Si in the latter. Even that seems to be a quite weak correlation. I also think that, regarding judging functions, Fe and Ti are more masculine, while Fi and Te are more feminine (mostly just Fi). I mean, Fe includes all the traditionally "macho" kinds of emotions (i.e. rage, standing up for your externally-based values like a heroic warrior), which are also valued in the Romance cultures that originated the concept of "macho", although of course the Tx will probably come across more masculine generally.

    You also know a paper is bad when it mentions unfalsifiable evolutionary psychology BS from the outset.

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    The article is neither valid nor objective because of its heteronormative standpoint. I also agree with @Schildmaid, evolutionary views are generally overestimated while socialization is disregarded.

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    well, that was an entertaining read. it appears Filatova is stuck in the 19th century.

    EII is of the most "feminine" types according to this article, but people have always told me that i come off as very androgynous, both in mannerisms and how i present myself. i have never felt comfortable in femininity or masculinity, i'd rather do away with the concepts altogether. i believe there is no correlation between type and femininity/masculinity levels; characteristics like vulnerability, adventurousness, etc aren't gendered. the sooner we abolish that kind of thinking, the better.

    also, i thought evolutionary psychology stopped being relevant ages ago. this article is merely unfounded speculation, and also fundamentally biased:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    The article is neither valid nor objective because of its heteronormative standpoint.
    “As a general rule, people, even the wicked, are much more naïve and simple-hearted than we suppose. And we ourselves are, too.” — Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    well, that was an entertaining read. it appears Filatova is stuck in the 19th century.

    EII is of the most "feminine" types according to this article, but people have always told me that i come off as very androgynous, both in mannerisms and how i present myself. i have never felt comfortable in femininity or masculinity, i'd rather do away with the concepts altogether. i believe there is no correlation between type and femininity/masculinity levels; characteristics like vulnerability, adventurousness, etc aren't gendered. the sooner we abolish that kind of thinking, the better.

    also, i thought evolutionary psychology stopped being relevant ages ago. this article is merely unfounded speculation, and also fundamentally biased:
    I second all of what you said, 19th century indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hag View Post
    well, that was an entertaining read. it appears Filatova is stuck in the 19th century.

    EII is of the most "feminine" types according to this article, but people have always told me that i come off as very androgynous, both in mannerisms and how i present myself. i have never felt comfortable in femininity or masculinity, i'd rather do away with the concepts altogether. i believe there is no correlation between type and femininity/masculinity levels; characteristics like vulnerability, adventurousness, etc aren't gendered. the sooner we abolish that kind of thinking, the better.

    also, i thought evolutionary psychology stopped being relevant ages ago. this article is merely unfounded speculation, and also fundamentally biased:
    Yes, I feel pretty "androgynous" myself as well, and often enough come off as that to other people, but in a more of both masculine and feminine way, rather than neither masculine nor feminine. And even if you did gender characteristics like vulnerability and adventurousness, I don't think this article actually gets the individual types right as regarding those whatsoever. I mean, EII and EIE have the exact same masculinity and femininity ratings despite having basically completely opposite behaviors? That's just off. SLI are also not very manly at all from my experience, they tend to be extremely sensitive and vulnerable due to the Si lead. SLE tend to be slightly "androgynous" by modern standards due to Fe HA as well, and IEI, the supposedly least masculine type of all, tend to be pretty gutsy and have no problem being involved in conflicts (I sort of think the Viking berserkers were mostly IEIs for some reason, probably because berserkers supposedly just got amped up on drugs and did shamanic sorts of things which I attribute to IEI). I think whoever wrote this was basing it on MBTI rather than Socionics to be honest, since it says things like "pragmatists are extremely masculine and humanitarians are extremely feminine" rather than looking at Reinen dichotomies, function stacking, or any of the other real Socionics things.

    I don't see how Narc said it's "commonsense"...

    Also, to add something, I don't see how they rated masculinity and feminity without any regard to introversion and extraversion. It seems if you want a man to go out in public and be initiating and a woman to sit around the house and be responsive you'd want a stereotypically extraverted man and introverted woman above all else (not that that's how extraversion and introversion actually work, but they didn't get how anything else works either).

    In terms of stereotypical masculinity/feminity though, here are my observations:

    Stereotypicaly masculine: ILI
    Stereotypically feminine: SEI

    Everyone else tends to not fit male/female stereotypes in rather significant ways. Gulenko's masculinity/feminity of types seems to have nothing to do with stereotypical ideas of "manliness" or "girliness".
    Last edited by Verbrannte; 10-02-2016 at 09:51 PM.
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    per aspera ad astra Chae's Avatar
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    And now, the elephant in the room... how has a gendered perspective impacted socionics theory as a whole?

    Think of romantic attitudes (aggressor-victim/ infantile-caregiver), for example.

    Bias cannot be avoided, sure. But it can be detected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    And now, the elephant in the room... how has a gendered perspective impacted socionics theory as a whole?

    Think of romantic attitudes (aggressor-victim/ infantile-caregiver), for example.

    Bias cannot be avoided, sure. But it can be detected.
    Oh, gendered bias has definitely affected those romantic attitudes.

    Aggressor: Wants to be loved abstractly (static/intuitive)
    Victim: Wants to love abstractly (dynamic/intuitive)
    Caregiver: Wants to be loved concretely (static/sensing)
    Infantile: Wants to love concretely (dynamic/sensing)

    Aggressor and Caregiver see love as a static state and once they can make the other person love them, they'll stay that way, and Victim and Infantile see love as a dynamic state and something they constantly have to do, so they continually show their admiration for the other person, is the logic behind that. If anything in Socionics needs a name change, it's probably the romantic attitudes.

    The obvious problem with how they're characterized to me is that in American culture at least, Victim is supposed to be more masculine and Aggressor more feminine ("women need to play hard-to-get and find a man who really admires them", cf. the knight and the princess, or Goethe's various protagonists who fall in love with these idolized women), although Caregiver is still more masculine and Infantile more feminine (Caregiver = breadwinner), so basically the whole Beta and Gamma quadrants are more stereotypically suited towards masculine romance styles (having Ni/Se) and Alpha and Delta towards feminine (having Ne/Si). However, in reality there are basically an equal amount of people of both sexes in all of the quadras, so romance is probably just a pain in the arse for basically exactly half of the population. Aggressor and Victim seem to have no correlation with any sort of BDSM activities from what I've seen (although that probably has a correlation with Infantile/Caregiver since those are modulated by Si and Se, which do seem to correlate with that kind of thing. Someone should study this).
    Last edited by Verbrannte; 10-03-2016 at 03:10 AM.
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    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

  28. #28
    وزير‎‎ lungs's Avatar
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    ^aggressor is sensing, caregiver is dynamic, and infantile is static and intuitive

  29. #29
    Pika Pika's Avatar
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    The only element that comes off of overtly anything, is Se which is masculine. The others honestly could vary. For me personally... from most masculine to most feminine, it goes...

    Se > Te > Fe > Ti > Ni > Fi > Si > Ne
    SLE > SEE > LIE > EIE > LSI > LSE > ESI > ESE > ILI > IEI > SLI > SEI > LII > ILE > EII > IEE
    ES-Beta,ES-Gamma, EN-Gamma, EN-Beta, IS-Beta, ES-Delta, IS-Gamma, ES-Alpha, IN-Gamma, IN-Beta, IS-Delta, IS-Alpha, IN-Alpha, EN-Alpha, IN-Delta, EN-Delta.
    Extrovert, Extrovert, Extrovert, Extrovert, Introvert, Extrovert,Introvert, Extrovert, Introvert, Introvert, Introvert, Introvert, Introvert, Extrovert, Introvert, Extrovert
    Irrational, Irrational,Rational, Rational, Rational, Rational, Rational, Rational, Irrational, Irrational, Irrational, Irrational,Rational, Irrational, Rational, Irrational

    Se seems to be the most influential factor in this o_o And then the whole Extraverted vs Introverted and Rational vs Irrational deal... which actually is just temperament.
    I realize none of that was truly necessary. You can uh leave now and pretend you learned something from me. ;3

    TELL ME IF U AGREE OR LEAVE A LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE ^_^





    Last edited by Pika Pika; 10-03-2016 at 05:27 AM.

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