Socionics and Gender Roles
One nice thing about Socionics is that it recognizes the existence of men who prefer to be chased and women who prefer to do the chasing. What about when it comes to relationships? Do you find that you prefer to lead as a woman or follow as a man? Do you prefer equal division of power? What is your type? Do you think your type influences this?
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
I think, what you've learned from your family has a bigger impact on this. I'm from a family that is neither patriarchal nor matriarchal. Nobody really needs to force their will on someone, sometimes of course compromises have to be made. The one who leads is the one who is the wisest and most responsible.
There are different ways of leading. A tyrannic way on one hand, on the other a humble way.
I'm not that extremely emancipated to the point that I would overpower and henpeck the man. I would be ok with him being the leader in the relationship, but only if he's capable of doing that. Probably because I don't want to be in the same situation like my mother. My father is extremely irresponsible when it comes to money and actually almost everything. I wouldn't want to have the same problems again.
Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...
coming on too strong in the beginning has been an issue for me since i was like twelve, lol. its one of those things where i can blame it on socionics even though its a personal problem, i doubt all female aggressors deal with the same thing. the tension and ambiguity and wanting to know how the other person feels just isn't something i can sit and savor like some people can. it drives me insane. and sometimes it makes me think i feel more intensely than i do. and once all that tension dissipates and the amibuigity is over i realize my feelings weren't as strong as i thought.
i need to feel like i'm autonomously making my own decision romantically and that i'm not just going along with somebody elses decision. so if i feel any pressure i lose interest. sometimes that "pressure" can just come in the form of them reciprocating too enthusiastically. which i guess is where a victim "hard to get" thing might come into things but i don't like that idea...of playing games, or whatever. and ideally it would just be the right chemistry where it feels natural without the pressure just because of compatibility.
its annoyingly complicated and i think its part of what prevents me from wanting to deal with dating.
then again every relationship is different and none of them fit into any generalized template i could describe. this is just a loose attempt.
also it seems like people see me as either this pushy independent woman bitch or as a meek and timid submissive girl and i feel like nobody ever really sees that i'm both at the same time. sometimes i get a kick out of a guy bowing to what i want and other times i feel like a damsel in distress. but i guess supposedly it has to be like some kind of either/or thing. but for me its not. there are certain aspects in a relationship that i take more control over because it just feels natural to do so but not because i get any enjoyment out of having control or whatever. and certain things i'd rather be passive about.
I see it as more of a tug-oh-war than a chase. I lay out bait, they may take it and I'll pull it back to see if they stop coming. If they don't take the bait, I'll move it around for attention and see if they respond that time, and keep at it until I reel it in all the way.
I expect to do all the work and take all the risk.
The interaction between socionics and an underlying biological phenotype is 100% the most interesting question about the typology for me. How do the different hormonal balances which presumably affect personality seep into the different uses of socionics functions and information elements? How about more fundamental genetic factors which influence personality?
Or we can skip gender altogether and ask how socionics layers over a fundamentally neurologically different personality like a psychopath's, whether the theory even applies to them and so on. Apes and animals?
OMG, this sounds like a nightmare.Originally Posted by lungs
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| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
To be clear, I'm not talking about the chase before a relationship; I'm talking about the accepted or expected roles once in a relationship. I started the thread because of people on another forum making statements like "men should be the leaders in a relationship", "men like to be the leaders in a relationship", and "men tend to ultimately resent a female who takes the lead in a relationship". This seems awfully simplistic to me, and I think it's probably placing too much emphasis on gender and not enough on personality, so I thought I'd check for feedback here.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
what does it even mean to take the lead in the relationship? being responsible for major decisions like where to live? i guess i'm more stereotypical as far as that stuff is concerned because i usually don't have a very strong opinion unless i can see it having an obvious negative effect. and if the guy just goes ahead its easy to be lazy and go along with it if i don't have a problem, even if it might be better sometimes to inject myself just for the sake of having a voice.
i was noticing the other day how a few women who seem really independent and like they wear the pants in their relationships were dropping hints on facebook about marriage like posting weddings rings and stuff and how that seems to be sort of a last taboo, like women to some degree can get away with asking guys out or initiating sex but proposals...no. but then marriage is usually seen as like a gift that men begrudgingly give to women.
To be quite honest, it seems to vary from person to person. Some see it as having the last say or being the ultimate authority in a relationship. Others see it as who brings home more money. And there are probably more views than that.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
i only have one real LTR to draw experience from. with an SLI. umm. it was a struggle. with remodeling the house, for example, he'd single-handedly decide on a room and i wouldn't want him to start on that room until he was finished with the room he was doing before. but he'd have his reasons and then he'd ask me to pick out some paint trying to appease me because he was letting me "get involved." he naturally took the lead on things and i didn't mind enough of the time so that he basically could do so.... but that fucked it up for the times that i did mind because it set a precedent for him just making all the decisions. ideally i would like something with more equality than that, but i also just don't care enough to invest myself in everything. i guess i just wanted him to listen to my input and finish the first room to begin with so i don't mind taking more of a support role as long as i'm actually listened to, lol.
Yes, and I also think this creates unnecessary pressure. I believe in straightforward communication about preferences, necessities, etc. and then making decisions together (or making decisions autonomously if the situation calls for it - you can't agree on everything). I am good at some things, he will be good at other things, so why would anyone need to be the leader by default?
Come to think of it, I never found men who want to be the leader in a relationship particularly attractive. I don't like to be told what to do.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Gender roles seem to be just one of many myths that we get brainwashed or pressured into living up to.
Personally, I sometimes think that love for the other person and wisdom about life in general are more important than power dynamics for a happy relationship.
I used to be like this.
I would stay far, far away from anyone who displayed any sort of tendency towards wanting that kind of power over another person. I realize I'm reacting quite strongly because of childhood experiences but I honestly don't see how it would ever be a healthy or desirable attitude even at more moderate levels. What sort of relationship would it be anyway if one person demanded final authority and power? Not any kind of equal partnership at least. Anyway, I thought we got rid of this sort of attitude 100 years ago. :-/
I'm guessing you haven't been in many churches.The concept of the man having the final say and being the ultimate authority is definitely alive and well.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
I grew up in a church (father was a pastor), that's part of the reason I'm so allergic to that kind of attitude. I live in a secular country where few people go to church and the church I grew up in was fairly small and considered fringe, but it's larger in other parts of the world, makes it easy to think that kind of attitude is rare I guess.I'm guessing you haven't been in many churches.
OK. I understand that. My stepfather is pretty overbearing and fixated on his authority as given to him by God, which is part of why I'm so averse to the idea myself. (That, and I really hate being hemmed in by someone else's authority.)
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
Jesus christ you're difficult.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
That's true, it's more the desire for power over another person that bothers me than who actually makes the decisions. In reality I'm fairly easy going and if I don't have an opinion or only have a weak opinion I'll go along with what someone else wants rather than try to come up with an alternative. On the other hand I've ended friendships with people who've shown disregard for my opinions/wishes or who have had an attitude of 'well, I want this, so this is what we're going to do.'
I'm Christian, so I know that passage in the Bible, Ephesians 5. But I think it's mostly misinterpreted. Many men only like to read the first verses saying:I'm guessing you haven't been in many churches.
"22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
But it goes on, which is kind of interesting:
"25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."
If you really follow these words, it doesn't mean that the man just does whatever he wants to do, but he actually has to be self-sacrificing and humble. I suppose, if a man is able to love you in that kind of way, it's alright to follow.
Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...
Making lesser decisions than one's partner doesn't mean the person has less power in the relationship, I think. I wouldn't mind my partner making more decisions. Of course it's not exactly easy for me cos I'm a control freak. (Bound to make a disaster cos all relationships I've had were with 8s lol) I learned a long time ago that I have to let go of my imaginary authority to shove my perfectionism into other people's throat. And it didn't took my 'power' away in relationships.
In concept I would want a relationship where both parties are in equal power over decision-making, but I can imagine it playing out where I would subconsciously relinquish responsibility to the partner without my realizing, then getting pissy when I come to and find myself in a lesser position of power. I've been in too few relationships to really know though, but I imagine that's more of an E6 thing than socionics.
I've never cared for the idea of "pursuing" or being actively pursued either. Seems like a rather imbalanced way of forming a relationship, an imbalance that's likely to stick around if and when the romance comes.
Mine still has some extreme views but has mellowed considerably since I grew up, to the point that he had no issues with me and my sisters living with men outside of marriage. That would not have been remotely possible when I was 16 and I remember how it used to be very well and don't want to get into anything remotely like it.
There's a few differing aspects to leadership. A person might become a leader because they have the resources, or the knowledge, or the insight, or the skills, or the initiative, or the patience, which their partner(s) need.
Leaders don't necessarily lead everything. Nor do they have all the above. It just means that someone looks to the leader as a guide in some aspect of a situation.
Leaders have followers. Dictators have minions/slaves.
Imo, a "leader" who doesn't consider what the follower(s) have/offer, nor their input, isn't worth my following. And I wouldn't want to 'lead' anyone who wasn't worth considering their side of things.
Now, having said all that, I doubt I would reenter the dating scene/hunt if something were to happen to R. I've never met anyone as caregiving and patient as him, nor as willing to work around certain difficulties of mine. And I'm not sure I would be willing to settle for less, now.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
Oh, since you clarified, I don't really expect roles in the relationship. I usually try to divide tasks and things, but not by gender, really. More just by "Hey, I hate doing the dishes and vacuuming, so you do those, and I'll clean windows and dust, like you hate.!"
Maybe, but she still has to submit to his will. If he makes a bad decision which he interprets as a good one, she has to follow his lead even if she know it is not a good way to go.
Last edited by Kim; 11-05-2013 at 07:41 PM.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Well the combination "want to be absolutely certain" + "don't like the other party to show much interest" is kind of hard to synchronously satisfy.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
yeah ive thought about sucking it up and just going along with somebody who is obviously interested because it seems a lot more healthy but if i don't feel it then its a good way to lead somebody on. somehow i've managed to have relationships in the past. so...eventually... maybe the stars will align. or not. oh well.
i dunno i kind of think when its the right person i don't think so much and this stuff isn't as much of an issue. and it just kind of happens. ive just been overanalyzing lately because i haven't dated so long and i don't know exactly why.
(sorry for derail)
I dealt with this shit with an ESI girl recently and it was fucking infuriating.
.
Last edited by nigh; 07-08-2014 at 04:25 AM.
yeah, sure, if you like someone a lot you likely won't feel less interested if he reciprocates (hopefully).
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Yes, but the real Christian of course has to pray and listen to what God says. xD And maybe God's answer appears through the voice of female intuition.
Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...
I only feel comfortable when power dynamics are in balance
Saying men should be in charge is not only simplistic but also prett dumb.
My bf and I fall squarely into gender roles in terms of how we divide up the chores; I don't mind it at all.
For one thing, I think that beta ST males and beta NF females fall naturally into a sort of universal idea of masculine and feminine, so that helps. What he's good at and what I'm good at fall into two separate categories, and we are both aware of it - that helps too.
i.e. he really can't cook, and I love cooking. I mostly don't even want him in the kitchen, he'll just mess something up lol. I do groceries, cooking, laundry. He does the dishes, takes out the trash. I definitely let him drive.. an LSI behind the wheel is super fun.
Once, though, we got into a fight bc I left the directions to him (another area I don't mind giving up control in, unless the other person is retarded), and he kind of floundered around without admitting that he didn't know where he was going. In these situations I get really mad, and want to retake control, bc if it's an issue of going through google navigation from the beginning, I can do it and end up with a better idea than you. It's just that I don't want to, and you said you were good at this. But then I have set a precedent as someone who doesn't know directions (or whatever), so when I want to take over command again, it doesn't happen so smoothly. Same issue that lungs mentioned I guess.
I think it would interesting to know, though, how infantile males handle gender roles in a relationship.
Congratulations.
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