Edumacation - are college costs worth it?

[Nevero]

Watching videos like this one makes me think that there isn't much value in the post-secondary education that is being offered at most schools. I have several friends who after spending up to 6 years earning their degrees are now unemployed or are otherwise struggling to find employment.

What about you guys? Did you get degrees in something that you were interested in or something that could be easily applied? For those who have finished school, in retrospect, did your education pay off the effort and time that you have invested? How easy or tough has it been for you to find employment with your degree?

Reading some of the classical literature I also get a sense that education was better "back in the days" and it contributed to the genesis of some of the greatest minds. Is there some kind of global education crisis going down right now?

[Beautiful sky]

edumacations always important

[Kill4Me]

I went into some college gymnasium to use the bathroom...on a sunday afternoon. the door was locked so I peed on the door. that's my view about universities. it's one of civilization's cons...it's only serious for the people that buy into it.

[ashlesha]

I went into some college gymnasium to use the bathroom...on a sunday afternoon. the door was locked so I peed on the door. that's my view about universities. it's one of civilization's cons...it's only serious for the people that buy into it.

the only person to hear your message was some janitor just trying to get through his day.

[ashlesha]

i just have a two year degree. i don't work in the field i went to school for. but if i hadn't gone to school at all i don't know how i would have gotten my foot in the door so i basically see it as how i transitioned from working fast food to working at a desk. i had grants and didn't have to pay a dime so i don't regret it at all. i have sort of a distant dream to go back for more eventually but i don't know for what. but i enjoyed school more than i enjoy working.

[mu4]

College has become a business in America. In life, you have to watch the money and what people are 'selling' - colleges promise success, will bring in alumni to talk to you to say 'you can be successful too if you go here', and they play all sorts of games (college is FUN! Live away from your parents! Look how good our sports teams are! Be a XYZ-stater for LIFE!). But essentially you're going to school for a promise. Be careful. You don't need to go to college to be successful. I could list many businesspeople who dropped out of or skipped college.

Everything is a business in America, which makes most choices that are made business oriented. If you are able to drop out or skip college, you probably never needed college in the first place, however most people aren't like that. Most people are just going to work a job, do the best they can and have some kids. With the way most non-white collar labor works in the US there's only a few fields where one can make a decent salary today and in many of these fields a college education will help the shift to management.

If you're going to school for just a job, that's a wrong way to look at it. School is about networks and education, getting a job should still be secondary to that. How much one is willing to spend on that education is important as well.

Life is not just about working, and there's a lot of benefits to getting a education outside of a job. I personally did not enjoy school, nor did I do very well in it, I took a road that mostly involved self-education. However, I would never recommend what I did to everyone. Also my path has made it harder for me to reenter academia, be a researcher, do things which I think I can do but because I went down a different path, those are harder for me to achieve.

[xerx]

if they wanted to immigrate, many western countries would accept talented professionals in technical fields like engineering. there is actually a shortage of technical occupations in Canada and demand is booming

germany is paying educated foreigners to come live, work and study there

also, peter schiff is fat now

[mu4]

IMO biggest complainers about education being too expensive is some NF with 100k in school debt and can't pay it off with their liberal arts degree and won't deign themselves to do a mind numbing job so the natural alternative is to resort to complaining or selling cupcakes for 4 dollars a whack.

Then some asshole ST like this guy latches on to that shit and makes everything suck. Yea, education can be mind-numbing, painful and of limited use, but opting out of it for some fantasy that you will make it in this world with a little elbow grease and wishful thinking is bullshit.

This is also one of those anti-government guys who want to defund the educational programs, give everyone vouchers for schools and various other ways to de-educate the poor more then they already are. The fact that he's latched on to this, a problem he helped to create, is like Paula Deen selling diabetes medicine, it venal, parasitic and makes him scum in my book.

Get educated, do it cheaply, it's good for ya..

[mu4]

Watching videos like this one makes me think that there isn't much value in the post-secondary education that is being offered at most schools. I have several friends who after spending up to 6 years earning their degrees are now unemployed or are otherwise struggling to find employment.

Are you friends stupid, did they study something that is hard to get hired for, will they not work a warehouse job, do they refuse to work anything that requires them to sweat.

Did their parents not tell them that their English degree doesn't mean much?

[Kim]

Could everyone please stop dissing English/liberal arts degrees? Mine has served me very well.

You have to be smart while you are in college regardless of what your major is. Those of my students who have succeeded with their *useless* liberal arts degrees are the ones who took full advantage of all resources, including networking, community outreach, etc.

I have one student who wrote a paper for my oh-so-useless lit/film class, which lead her, via some interesting developments, to now work for a major research organization in Washington D.C. And she is just one example.

I wish I had the time and patience to write about the merits of a liberal arts education. Maybe during break.

[xerx]

lib majors are the scum of satan

[Kim]

lib majors are the scum of satan

There are worse things you could be.

[mu4]

Could everyone please stop dissing English/liberal arts degrees? Mine has served me very well.

You have to be smart while you are in college regardless of what your major is. Those of my students who have succeeded with their *useless* liberal arts degrees are the ones who took full advantage of all resources, including networking, community outreach, etc.

I have one student who wrote a paper for my oh-so-useless lit/film class, which lead her, via some interesting developments, to now work for a major research organization in Washington D.C. And she is just one example.

I wish I had the time and patience to write about the merits of a liberal arts education. Maybe during break.

I'm not dissing your students or the degrees, I'm really talking about a certain type of individual that goes to school for a degree that is hard to get hired for, then blame everyone else that they can't pay their school debts. I have met these individuals, they exist. I don't even really care they complain, but more so that some asshole like Schiff latches onto this topic. I probably shouldn't have said liberal arts because some liberal arts degrees aren't hard to hire for.

I don't have a ton of examples for engineers because well that industry is understaffed, I think the most common complaint I hear is "I should have been a writer..." or "Screw this, I'm going to be a chef".... etc...

Somedays, I say, I should have been a writer or film maker or went to art school.

[mu4]

There are worse things you could be.

Liberal arts are kind of a broad term, it's probably better to say hard to hire for degrees, because some liberal arts degrees are easy to get employment.

If you get a philosophy degree, which I think is a great degree, the unemployment numbers are quite high. Anyways, even if you can't get a job in your field, just be a hipster bartender and take in 300 bucks a night slinging PBR's.

Also I wanted to be architect, talk about unemployment rates... oy vey.

[xerx]

There are worse things you could be.

i guess you could be the scum of a liberal arts major ...

j / k lib arts girls make the most passionate love ime

[Kill4Me]

like any good con make the perception into reality they drop twenty thousand a year.

[Kill4Me]

the only person to hear your message was some janitor just trying to get through his day.

yeah, that's life....whenever you put your own wants first somebody usually winds up with the short-end of the stick.

[Azure Flame]

education is worthless. Knowledge isn't.

[Reficulris]

education isn't worthless, it just depends on how much you take away from it. You choose what kind of major you do and you can know the outcomes. You can either learn from classes or just sit through them. You can either connect with people or hide in just your fraternity or dormroom.

The self made millionaires, having succes despite dropping out, are the exception, not the rule. Yes, if you are talented, really talented, you might not need education. Don't kid yourself, you're probably not!
No, education isn't the guarenteed road to succes it's sometimes made out to be...though luck, there IS no road to succes, it's mostly luck and maybe hard work. (I go for luck)

It's not black and white. if you realize that both college and real life experience are important you'll do as great as you possibly can manage. The rest is up to chance, deal with it.

If you say fuck education, you skew those chances. If you say fuck real life experience you're skewing those chances as well. Both is a possible problem in your future. Still, you might have that one idea that makes you a bilionare. Write me if you do!

[Azure Flame]

self made millionaire weren't lucky, they were knowledgable.

If I told you you could make money by buying your friends' credit card debt from them, would that blow your mind?

knowledge.

[Oaky]

In the video he didn't go around asking actual engineers, archeologists, neuroscientists, chemists, doctors, professors, researchers, journalists, architects, actuarists, etc. whether or not they went to college. And he cut out all the footage of people who said they didn't go to college. Find the ratio of the college graduates to the non-college graduates at the place he interviews people and the ratio of the college graduates to the non college graduates at labs, design firms, museums, and general other places/jobs where college graduates are expected to work then we can have a rather fair analysis on this youtube pop nonsense.

[Reficulris]

self made millionaire weren't lucky, they were knowledgable.

If I told you you could make money by buying your friends' credit card debt from them, would that blow your mind?

knowledge.

No, but ever since reading your first post i've thought you were an idiot...

you are right about education being worthless to you though.

[FDG]

I didn't pay anything for my education, actually I got some "net" gain since I managed to get scolarships (not much, like 6-7k per year), work part time and lived with my parents until I was 23. Worth it? Hard to say, I'll have to check in 20-25 years since that's when it usually starts to "pay off" according to most research. According to my current perception, it was especially worth it for people with little business acumen and intellectual interests, since it gave them some confidence and knowledge. For those who already seemed "smart" it kind of really decreased their self confidence (I'm not talking about myself, just some friends) and made them excessively pessimistic about their abilities.

[Azure Flame]

No, but ever since reading your first post i've thought you were an idiot...

you are right about education being worthless to you though.

my first post huh?

[Radio]

According to my current perception, it was especially worth it for people with little business acumen and intellectual interests, since it gave them some confidence and knowledge. For those who already seemed "smart" it kind of really decreased their self confidence (I'm not talking about myself, just some friends) and made them excessively pessimistic about their abilities.

...

[Absurd]

Do not insult philosophists @Ath. You never know - hkkmr can end up in politics as the minister of economy he doesn't know anything about. That's pretty common in Europe.

[FDG]

...

Don't worry, those people quickly got back their confidence once they started working.

[Kill4Me]

Wtf is a liberal arts professor anyway lmfao...

[Kill4Me]

Academia is the worst type of bureaucracy. It markets in idol worship. Idol worship is a symptom of the desire for truth. Monks also sit around for thirty years deciphering their idols. Bureaucracy is another useless amenity of civilization as it's just churning out more cogs in the machine. Cut the red tape, once and for all...heh

[Reficulris]

I can only imagine this site is full of self-made millionaires like DJA.

I'm so sad I got a degree, I should have made socionics youtube videos :'( I want to be succesfull like ATH and DJA.
Can someone please steal my degree and erase all the traces from the systemTM (the more evil version of TheManTm)?

I want the red pill!!!

SOMEONE!!!!!!!

[Pookie]

Get any degree, Join the Military as an Officer, in 4 years you're making 60 grand + allowances for food and Board, upwards of about 1k per month.

Congrats!! You have succeeded at life financially.

[Aquagraph]

I have free education opportunities everywhere but they seem so outdated and pointless, especially if I am not sure what skills I would want to utilize in the future. I can already do aimless studying to try to see what I like and, you know, look around.
It's a big world and I'm supposed to be determined on what I want in here? Whose side I'm even on? ..Well, I was in school until I was around 20 and lost interest with my studies, that could have directed me towards various academic paths that I wasn't interested in, and then dropped out.

Well, since jobs are scarce and I'm receiving a modest steady income from tax-payers as long as I don't work, I really don't see why it would be wise to be doing something that requires no skills. It's true that previous job experience sounds nice to an employer while bringing some extra cash but I was more interested in leisurely, if poor, lifestyle than try to please people who would be happy to hire an ex telemarketer.

It kinda sucked being in a situation where most people are expected to work when you don't have to or to study in an institution that doesn't inspire you. Social welfare leech wasn't really a nice thing to tell to a lady's mother when she asks me what do I do, but selective honesty is the best policy.

During these years of NEETness I think I have learned a lot about the big picture and what I want from it. If I can have fun when young and at the same time think about myself in the world for a few years before deciding the general direction, it's worth it.
I think I know now.

[Aquagraph]

education is worthless. Knowledge isn't.

I think Mark Twain put it better:
"Never let your schooling interrupt your education"

I think you both mean the same thing with different definitions for the term "education".

[Kill4Me]

I can only imagine this site is full of self-made millionaires like DJA.

People are better off unlearning what they know instead of learning what they don't know. It's not a question of the ‘road’ that will make me more money or success, but the road that extends will to power. "Get rich" has people like arendee chasing their tail. I'd rather kill myself. At the end of the day, it goes back to do whatever the fuck you want. Wealth is peripheral. IF it comes, fine, if not, fuck it, but I'm way too egocentric and self-centered to turn money into a god. Academia opposes the will to power in its impotent search for truth. Truth doesn't exist. Only the desire for truth exists. I get more aliveness out of something simple like smashing a window with a chair than I would dropping 20 grand a year sitting in a chair, so I'd rather spend the time throwing chairs through windows. I don't need to learn anything because I'm already wired with a worldview, hence, I just know things. I've got about a 1,000 years of shit to beat the academics over the head with.

[Reficulris]

From what I've read, getting a phd is so not worth it. There's way too many of them (postdocs) competing for few academic positions in the west, resulting in low pay, whistle blowers (cuz there's lots of cheating due to intense competition) getting revenged on, professors lying to aspiring students about old profs soon retiring so that newcomers will have a shot at tenure, lots of unpaid debt, little job security (your boss/tpb dislikes you, you're gone), researchers toeing the line by never doing anything unconventional (if Einstein did that, then no theory of relativity) random things like being physically attractive you are motivating someone to stop you from advancing, long hours, harsh competition not just between colleagues but also departments, little freedom both in the now and in the future, few practical skills learned, overqualified for most normal (REAL) jobs, ignorance of and snobby contempt towards the outside world (ivory tower culture).

Academic bureaucracy is terrible in Europe (higher ups exploit the achievements of lesser ppl, just like the generation before them), so there's braindrain towards NA, increasing competition there. Poor countries have worse equipment for research, so for many in 1st world countries, moving might not be the solution. Its supposedly worst of all in life sciences where there are stories of 3rd world immigrants taken advantage of (threats about having their green card revoked from their professor, etc) and way too many ppl competing, more so than other academic fields. Like K4M said its idol worship... There are stories of arrogant students who've always been at the top of their class thinking they're gonna be a Nobel prize winner. They mock everyone who doesn't take the hardest courses but then they get disillusioned later, as the going gets tougher the farther you climb on the academic ladder.

tl;dr version: this

@Reficulris like Allie said some time ago in the chatbox you're just another intellectual masturbator. And if you really want the red pill how about suicide?

Lol, yeah, Allie, she's almost as succesfull as you and DJA.

Sorry to have taken away from your valuable time Ath, but i'm honored you enlighten me with your well formed oppinion of me, i'm honored really!

I can only immagine you have strong reasons and hard work as basis for your analysis of "higher ecudation in europe", I am, sadly, an acadamic that has not yet encountered this pervasive and problematic nature of education yet, but i'm sure I will soon be disillusioned if I encounter the real world! Yes, the real world... now I need to find it, maybe I need to research pokemonics and make youtube videos! That'll make me encounter the real worldTM!

I might be an intellectual masturbator, but at least i'm having pleasure instead of being a jaded narrowminded drug addict like Allie or a person with zero social skills and very little self knowledge like you! Maybe if you lost your virginity you'd get a brighter outlook on life!

[Reficulris]

@Reficulris I know you've said stuff about being involved in academics with your ex and all in the past, but what exact history do you have in academia? If you're fishing for more links then I'm more than willing to share but I want you to be forthright about it... As far as narrow-mindedness goes I'll just reiterate: an open mind is like an open toilet in that anyone can shit in it, cuz opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. As far as my social and self-knowledge goes they're not quite at zero I'll assure you. And I'm not in the ranks of sex-obsessed loons. I'm good enough on my own to not have to gear my life towards obtaining sex (reproduction from a natural pov, meaning those who're dependent on it have less destructive capacity) i.e. being dependent on others.

I have both a philosophy and a psychology propedeutical, a public administration bachelor and will get my masters in business (the dreaded mba) this summer (hopefully). I've seen a lot of academics, and while I believe that there is some minor truths in the thread above I believe that basically education can be worthwhile and valuable, if, and only if, it is added upon by experience that is not academic in nature. Ivory tower sience exists and is a problem, but it's not the majority of academics. Education inflation is happening, but you're still, statistically better off with a degree than without. There are other ways to earn money (and even some of them are more succesfull in adding a lot of it) but there is a fair ammount of luck involved (not all youtube people get rich, as DJA might have found out by now...).

I don't agree with the toilet methaphor, or maybe I do, but than I like shit. My joy in life is the complexity and variedness of the world and one of my biggest fears is being bored. I find people who dislike openmindedness dreadfully boring ánd scary since they tend to want to bring the pitchforks against me (see allie). I don't understand, i'm not trying to burn you for having one oppinion, i'm just stating that I don't agree, why does that trigger such agression?

i apologize for attacking your social skills/self knowledge, you just seem to atagonise me the last few posts and I don't see why. I'll retalliate (mildly) if people start disliking me, or smudging/strawmanning me like allie did and you seem to do in the last few posts.

As for sex; i've been where you are, I know those arguments. I kinda changed my mind on that since sex can be interesting, experimental and thank god without the repercussions of procreation nowadays. I enjoy it like I enjoy dancing talking fighting, there's something primal in it that counterballances my so called "intellectual masturbation" which, in rare occasions make me feel like i'm too far away from the apes...

peace, you can dislike my views, i can dislike yours, in the end there is no arbiter anyway...

[Reficulris]

@Reficulris: Seems you got some academic experience then. Still, I'll stick to my stance that one should be wary of academia, as should others. If one intends to get into it long term, better investigate a wide variety of sources on it thoroughly before one commits. As far as earnings goes, without going into the nitty-gritty statistics of it I'll just reiterate: wariness.

On open-mindedness I say that ppl support it cuz its personally advantageous. Even the word itself frames it so that whoever supports it sounds superior. Perhaps open-minded ppl should be open-minded towards being narrow-minded (a derogatory word for seriousness and focus, it seems)? @the rest of the things you said: ok.

\

Yeah, that is a good attitude to have towards academics. Also, the paradigm of Acadamics are superiour to any other venue of life we have in europe is ofc bullshit and stupid.

About your openmindedness to narrowmindedness I agree. I'm dogmatically inclined to attack religious people, and so, I undermine my openmindedness. (see the hell thread, I attacked Eliza out of spite.) In the end I think I'd rather be a believer and have a simple world and not be afraid of boredom. Also, I'd prefer not to be nihilistic, but alas, I am and probably will be since I've spend years of my life searching for the truth and than got very very tired... So I completely agree (as I did with Eliza) that i'm intolerant of narrowmindedness, and that this, in essence is narrowminded as well.

This in no way devalues the offering of perspectives or make it more "good or right" to be narrowminded. It just means that being openminded isnt necesarrily superiour, however, I never claimed it was. I just said I like openmindedness in myself and other people and would like to be able to just be that way without persecution.

[FDG]

I have both a philosophy and a psychology propedeutical, a public administration bachelor and will get my masters in business (the dreaded mba) this summer (hopefully).

I think what Ath was referring to was phd and higher up kind of academia, thus the "professional" kind of academia, where you really have to believe in what you're doing.

[Reficulris]

I like narrow-mindedness for generating conflict as that can make way for a changing of the guard and thus growth, insight, etc.

In that case we're two sides of the same coin. Since my advocacy of the devil style is in the hopes that someone else will get the good ideas/real truthTM/more pleasurable ideas and, indeed, to guard against groupthink and biasses.

do you change your narrowmindedness in groups that think alike? As in, when you're talking to a crowd of DJA's, will you defend academics narrowminded? If so we're probably more alike than different...

[Reficulris]

I think what Ath was referring to was phd and higher up kind of academia, thus the "professional" kind of academia, where you really have to believe in what you're doing.

Well, academics that take themselves serious can have a purpose. Serious academic work sometimes hits on something that is actually usefull practially. Also, serious academic work can be entertaining to those so inclined. Finally, serious academics can be burned when there is social unrest, so they serve as a safety valve to protect the interests of the rich and powerfull. They have their uses, and can make some money.

That said, I think "hard science" is more likely to be directly usefull, satisfying and more likely to make you rich than any management or social science study ever could.