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Thread: R.I.P. Nelson Mandela

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    Default R.I.P. Nelson Mandela

    A truly great man.

    "During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."

    Nelson Mandela, Inspiration To World, Dies At 95

    Last edited by Kim; 12-05-2013 at 10:35 PM.
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    Last edited by Kim; 12-05-2013 at 10:31 PM.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Goodbye Nelson.

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    what a great life to live and a great legacy to leave behind

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    what a great life to live and a great legacy to leave behind
    Including 27 years in prison. Just incredible.
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    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    I want to see the new movie.

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    Tribute:

    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Great man with dog (his dog!).

    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Great morals. Failed President. Turned a powerhouse economy that could been the engine to lift hundreds of millions out of real poverty in Africa into a lawless joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Great morals. Failed President. Turned a powerhouse economy that could been the engine to lift hundreds of millions out of real poverty in Africa into a lawless joke.
    I would not put that on him entirely, but it could have gone better.

    Interesting article perhaps:

    Nelson Mandela: His economic legacy
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Sorry to spoil your hero worship but..

    Nelson Mandela founded a violent communist terrorist group called Umkhonto we Sizwe and Amnesty International didn't recognize his status as a political prisoner since he had taken part in murders. When he came to power in 1996 he nationalized corporations, banks and excavation of natural resources. Typical for socialism, this made the state of the SA economy worse and in a poll in 2002 60% of South Africans found the apartheid governance better. Transparency International polled South Africans in 2013 and a staggering 83% said the police were corrupt and 36% admitted to have made at least one bribe. Also rape (37% of men have admitted rape) and assault is rampant, though I couldn't find the pre-ANC numbers. Well, maybe it is the remnants of past trauma but the South African currency losing 70% of it's value after the communist ANC came to power (in 1994) really didn't help fight these things.

    Not to blame him for her second wife's crimes but the company a man keeps tells something about him:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    A controversial activist, she is popular among her supporters, who refer to her as the 'Mother of the Nation', yet reviled by others after the South African Truth and Reconciliation commission found "Ms Winnie Madikizela Mandela politically and morally accountable for the gross violations of human rights", concluding that she had personally been responsible for the murder, torture, abduction and assault of numerous men, women and children, as well as indirectly responsible for an even larger number of such crimes.

    Here's him singing about killing Boers:


    Since 1994 when the ANC and Mandela came to power, South Africa has fallen 38 places in Human Development Index. The National Bureau of Economic Research found that the average income for all races dropped 40% between 1994 to 2000. Also during the colonialism, the black population grew tenfold as there was a lot of immigration from the surrounding dictatorships. The average life expectancy significantly rose during colonialism and the decreased shortly after the ANC and Mandela came to power.

    Last edited by Aquagraph; 04-28-2014 at 11:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Sorry to spoil your hero worship but..

    Nelson Mandela founded a violent communist terrorist group called Umkhonto we Sizwe and Amnesty International didn't recognize his status as a political prisoner since he had taken part in murders. When he came to power in 1996 he nationalized corporations, banks and excavation of natural resources. Typical for socialism, this made the state of the SA economy worse and in a poll in 2002 60% of South Africans found the apartheid governance better. Transparency International polled South Africans in 2013 and a staggering 83% said the police were corrupt and 36% admitted to have made at least one bribe. Also rape (37% of men have admitted rape) and assault is rampant, though I couldn't find the pre-ANC numbers. Well, maybe it is the remnants of past trauma but the South African currency losing 70% of it's value after the communist ANC came to power (in 1994) really didn't help fight these things.

    Not to blame him for her second wife's crimes but the company a man keeps tells something about him:


    Here's him singing about killing Boers:
    You are not spoiling anything. It is well-known that Mandela founded Umkhonto we Sizwe after the Sharpeville Massacre. Its is why he went to prison in the first place. He was certain at that point that peaceful protest would never end apartheid. And he was proven right much later when the regime began negotiating with him for his release - it was only because they could not otherwise control violent protests and wanted Mandela to ask for peace in exchange for his release (he declined). A lot of credit goes to Winnie Mandela for being at the forefront of the protests (however, Mandela, as far as I know, asked her to stop the necklacing and similar murders and distanced himself from that).

    I also do not believe failings as a politician diminishes his accomplishments in abolishing apartheid. So he is not perfect and opportunities were missed. He was a leading figure in ending the system and negotiating many other forms of peace. Read a bit of what he has to say - he does not, to my knowledge, minimize that he engaged in violent protest. From the Rivonia trial:

    Having said this, I must deal immediately and at some length with the question of violence. Some of the things so far told to the Court are true and some are untrue. I do not, however, deny that I planned sabotage. I did not plan it in a spirit of recklessness, nor because I have any love of violence. I planned it as a result of a calm and sober assessment of the political situation that had arisen after many years of tyranny, exploitation, and oppression of my people by the Whites.

    I admit immediately that I was one of the persons who helped to form Umkhonto we Sizwe, and that I played a prominent role in its affairs until I was arrested in August 1962.
    Read the rest here: http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3430
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    @Kim, @hkkmr, @silke do check the additions to my original post. He just changed a governance for a worse one, although less racist one towards blacks.

    I really don't understand this "Well, the diminished economy maybe unable to prevent half of the female population getting raped during their lifetime and rampant corruption but at least they ain't racist no more" logic.

    For the record, I oppose colonialism just like I oppose the state altogether. Sometimes it's just better to live under The-autocrat-with-Chaplin-mustache's* rule than under Stalin's.

    *Couldn't write his name because it will be censored in this forum and you will think I meant the racial slur for a black person
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    @Kim, @hkkmr, @silke do check the additions to my original post. He just changed a governance for a worse one, although less racist one towards blacks.

    I really don't understand this "Well, the diminished economy maybe unable to prevent half of the female population getting raped during their lifetime and rampant corruption but at least they ain't racist no more" logic.

    For the record, I oppose colonialism just like I oppose the state altogether. Sometimes it's just better to live under ******'s rule than under Stalin's.
    Since 1994 when the ANC and Mandela came to power, South Africa has fallen 38 places in Human Development Index. The National Bureau of Economic Research found that the average income for all races dropped 40% between 1994 to 2000. Also during the colonialism, the black population grew tenfold as there was a lot of immigration from the surrounding dictatorships. The average life expectancy significantly rose during colonialism and the decreased shortly after the ANC and Mandela came to power.
    The question is the extent to which Mandela is responsible for this. What exactly is the causality between policies he put in place and these numbers? Do you have more information on that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    The question is the extent to which Mandela is responsible for this. What exactly is the causality between policies he put in place and these numbers? Do you have more information on that?
    ANC is a communist party and Mandela is a communist. Communism doesn't do well to the economy. Bad economy means that people are worse off. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but what other explanations can you possible come up for this immediate decline after the 1994?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    As luck would have it, I am attending a two-day seminar on South Africa after Apartheid at the end of the week. I will consult with the experts and report back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    A lot of credit goes to Winnie Mandela for being at the forefront of the protests (however, Mandela, as far as I know, asked her to stop the necklacing and similar murders and distanced himself from that).
    For those who don't know what is necklacing, it's wrapping the victim with barbed wire and then putting a tire over around his arms, pour gasoline on top of the rim and light it on fire. The victims face will melt and his eyes will pop due to the heat. It is confirmed that Winnie did this several times, one of them was a 14yo whom she suspected of being an informant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    For those who don't know what is necklacing, it's wrapping the victim with barbed wire and then putting a tire over around his arms, pour gasoline on top of the rim and light it on fire. The victims face will melt and his eyes will pop due to the heat. It is confirmed that Winnie did this several times, one of them was a 14yo whom she suspected of being an informant.
    Yes, there came the point when she went entirely overboard unfortunately...
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    Revolution and violence are fun, amiright! Generally when situations devolve into serious civil instability, there will be all sort of violence and killing on both sides. Violent revolutions are rarely fought and won by individuals not willing to do all sort of things, any sort of moral dithering over what happened is generally for the spectators in the comfy lounge chairs. It's not like Ghandi's India's solved it's problems either. Racism/sectarianism is one of the core problems the modern world seeks to solve vs the tribal/traditional world, this revolution is often violent and the process extremely painful. The problem of revolution is as much bureaucratic and administrative as violence, after a regime change, often administrators and bureaucrats which maintained the function of the government will be displaced and in turn many government functions will become less than efficient.



    Given this life expectancy chart, you want Putin in charge, post USSR. Although the Chechnyians/Ukrainians might disagree with that assessment.

    Apartheid was unsustainable and it eventually failed due to internal and external pressures, it's failure has nothing to little to do with the problems facing South Africa today. Now that black south africans have the agency to live their lives, they must learn how to live their lives, which is something they were kept from learning by the Apartheid system, one which kept them in ignorance, poverty and oppression. The problem facing South Africa is problems that face every nation finding it's identity, much like the revolution of 1776 was not the beginning of the United States, but merely the prologue. Nor was the conquest of the First Emperor Qin Shihuang the start of a prosperous Han Dynasty. Former colonies like India, South Africa, and other peoples and nations must be given the time and patience to find their own way and if they do not, that is a tragedy, but oppressing them and exploiting them under colonialism is something that hopefully will be frowned upon in our more enlightened era.

    Nobody wakes up in a hut/ghetto/tenement and walks out after a political change and becomes a 1st world hipster cunt, it takes a bit of education and progress before they start complaining about their soy lattes costing too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    ANC is a communist party and Mandela is a communist. Communism doesn't do well to the economy.
    are you sure of it? the economy of a communist state is about to overtake a capitalist superpower: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...onomy/8538689/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevero View Post
    are you sure of it? the economy of a communist state is about to overtake a capitalist superpower: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...onomy/8538689/
    I don't see a capitalist superpower.
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