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Thread: LSI ILI communication problems (real private conversation)

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    Default LSI ILI communication problems (real private conversation)

    The problem here is that the ILI issues advice which comes out as a command, through suggesting a solution for a problem that seems to be present.

    Quote Originally Posted by ILI



    Since your group is having personal time management issues my advice to you would be to copy us and organize a compulsory work day where everyone is required to work and most importantly be seen working with others. It improves productivity considerably since those who actually work can actually inspire those who have trouble working.


    Plus when people know that they have to provide active proof that they've actually been productive (or face a penalty where there are supposed to complete the stuff in their own time). You'd be surprised how much collaborative productivity increases.
    Quote Originally Posted by LSI
    what are you talking about!?

    Quote Originally Posted by ILI
    Collaborative programming project
    Quote Originally Posted by LSI
    we aren't having time management issues, where did you create this concept?
    you've created some kind of empty concept and decided to enforce it upon myself, which I am not impressed with to be honest
    I am incredibly aware of my own groups situation and the tools require to apply
    You are an external agent without insider knowledge, so how could you possibly have an insight into my group?
    Quote Originally Posted by ILI
    Its advice you don't have take it, if your team is working well without any of those issues you don't have to take anything I say.
    Quote Originally Posted by LSI
    I quote "Since your group is having personal time management issues " Where the hell did you get this from?

    you pulled this out your arse
    lol

    I have issues with some of the programmers
    but that is my problem

    I appreciate the concern
    but you are making stark conclusions
    Quote Originally Posted by ILI
    I have no idea how you are working to be honest or what is even happening with your group

    Dude I'm not trying to solve your problems I could never manage to do that, considering that I haven't even finished my own ones lols. I just thought by talking maybe we could share advice and if lucky maybe it could be a beneficial exercise.
    If you don't want to talk about your group project, that's no problem
    Quote Originally Posted by LSI
    I've been thinking about it, and maybe I came into it at the wrong approach. You just came across as very much "this is your issue, this is what you need to to do solve it" and I don't like that kind of tone. So I was not very receptive to being told what to do


    -I do appreciate your motive however and I appreciate your thoughts

    -apologies, your wording and phrasing initially output a different motive of your text, but I see where you're coming from
    and I am always happy to talk and discuss anything at all, that isn't a problem
    Quote Originally Posted by ILI
    Its cool no worries, didn't mean to create such an impression if I did, anyway I find face to face best

    -sorry I did come off as arrogant and all knowing, I've just seen it as I've re-read what I wrote

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    Hello monkeys, analyze and reflect please I, why the hell does the ILI in this come of as arrogant, what is it about critics that make them appear like that? Do LII, analysts have the same issue? Or perhaps do some of you believe that the individuals above are types wrongly

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    I'm pretty sure everyone has communication problems with ILI's. lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I'm pretty sure everyone has communication problems with ILI's. lmao
    really? How do they compare to LIIs though? If you've observed from experience.

    Sergey Ganin comes to mind when I think about that attitude being displayed by what might be an ILI here. He mutually comes of as arrogant and proud of it

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    Your ILI sounds like a extrovert...

    Collaborative programming project?

    "copy us and organize a compulsory work day where everyone is required to work "

    Bold

    'anyway I find face to face best"

    Imo a extrovert, maybe ILE instead of ILI

    This would be a supervision relationship which is much worse than benefit relationship which is the relationship of ILI/LSI. It does seem this "ILI" is supervising the LSI.

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    It's not private anymore.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

    Brought to you by socionix.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    It's not private anymore.
    Well they are anonymous so I did the most important work, in preserving the identities, I've omitted real personal information anyway, so I'm a decent person

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    ILI and LII both come off as arrogant.

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    i know of ILIs that had the phrase still in their mental outbox from another conversation, and they accidentally blurt out "intros". the ILI sounds tired or socially youngish. or maybe, like me, he got so caught up in his normal inner world of dealing with communication with people or with work situations by trying to solve them, laying a solution at the other person's feet, and providing a "reason"...the reason in this case was stated as "since a, then B," instead of "if a, then, B," possibly because he's distracted, rundown, or internally occupied. still an affront-y feeling to it, or at least it feles blind, huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    ILI and LII both come off as arrogant.
    Very interesting but why do you think so? What are the apparent reasons for it?

    Also hkkmr 's ILE typing is also interesting for the ILI, since what is being seemingly displayed there is Ne, but in an unorthodox socionics model like gulenko's the ILI is just offering ID advices Ne Te. But I reckon the percieved arrogance is mostly what upset the LSI in question.

    With the energomodel the LSI's dual has Ne as their creative so at times PoLR is silly since their dual over supplies it which makes duals and conflictor over the more complicated in real life. I've been finding the Energomdel to be more accurate than model a, since the LSI and ILI in question display the functions Ti Si (LSI) and Ni Ti( ILI) respectively.


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    Probably bc of their aloofness, and poor orientation in ethics of relationships. When you know them really well, it's easier to see that what they are saying comes from good intentions, but they still give off an impression that they have already thought this through and know they are right.

    What is the energomodel??

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Probably bc of their aloofness, and poor orientation in ethics of relationships. When you know them really well, it's easier to see that what they are saying comes from good intentions, but they still give off an impression that they have already thought this through and know they are right.

    What is the energomodel??
    That's silly unless it's a very young ILI.

    It usually seems as though manipulative people think this of me… I won’t be manipulated. Period.
    Sometimes I get tired and go on autopilot and that’s all it is. If I start to get really quiet, it’s because I think there might be something wrong with you, so I must observe more of your behavior.
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    really? How do they compare to LIIs though? If you've observed from experience.

    Sergey Ganin comes to mind when I think about that attitude being displayed by what might be an ILI here. He mutually comes of as arrogant and proud of it
    in my experience its not uncommon for ILI's to have aspergers.

    LII's are just a little awkward and gangly lookin. The only time LII's piss people off is because... they make people feel dumb.

    ILI's on the other hand... agh, irritating.

    I just had an ILI business partner leave the team for our gym, because he has to start his own gym now. He watched me and my EIE business partner start a gym, he feels the need to prove to himself that he can start a gym now. But that's not the problem. The problem is that, he comes to us and basically tells us very confidently that he is no longer going to be a part of our gym, and will be starting his own. This guy is our friend, and he's just being a pretentious douche, leaving us so that he can prove to himself that he's capable of just the same. If he was straightforward and honest and said, "I really need to start this gym on my own, it means a lot to my self esteem" or somethingn similar to that, we wouldn't have minded. But instead he posed the situation as, "Well, good luck losers, I'm gonna go start my own gym because I know what I'm doing and you guys don't."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    in my experience its not uncommon for ILI's to have aspergers.

    LII's are just a little awkward and gangly lookin. The only time LII's piss people off is because... they make people feel dumb.

    ILI's on the other hand... agh, irritating.

    I just had an ILI business partner leave the team for our gym, because he has to start his own gym now. He watched me and my EIE business partner start a gym, he feels the need to prove to himself that he can start a gym now. But that's not the problem. The problem is that, he comes to us and basically tells us very confidently that he is no longer going to be a part of our gym, and will be starting his own. This guy is our friend, and he's just being a pretentious douche, leaving us so that he can prove to himself that he's capable of just the same. If he was straightforward and honest and said, "I really need to start this gym on my own, it means a lot to my self esteem" or somethingn similar to that, we wouldn't have minded. But instead he posed the situation as, "Well, good luck losers, I'm gonna go start my own gym because I know what I'm doing and you guys don't."
    He sounds exactly like my SLI ex. He did this to his band.
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    sli huh? I'll look into it, but I'm pretty sure he's ILI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    sli huh? I'll look into it, but I'm pretty sure he's ILI.
    Maybe there's just a personality trait called dick-head? and any type can have it?
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Hello monkeys, analyze and reflect please I, why the hell does the ILI in this come of as arrogant, what is it about critics that make them appear like that? Do LII, analysts have the same issue? Or perhaps do some of you believe that the individuals above are types wrongly
    The ILI in this picture appears to be barging in and spouting off assumptions and then telling the other party how to fix the problems the ILI assumes exists. Is there someone who wouldn't be irritated by such nonsense, particularly when such assumptions are completely false but presented as truth? We also don't know whether the LSI considers the ILI to be in a position to shell out such advice, and whether the advice was at all solicited to begin with.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    Maybe there's just a personality trait called dick-head? and any type can have it?
    awww

    *hugs chriscorey*

    every type can be a dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Hello monkeys
    it's nice to see someone who is so aware of his primate roots

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    why the hell does the ILI in this come of as arrogant, what is it about critics that make them appear like that?
    it's a combination of objectivist creative logic that frames ILI's opinions as objective statements (e.g. "your group is having personal time management issues" instead of "I believe/think/imo your group is having personal time management issues") and primarily declaring style of communication (ILIs are declaring by Reinin dichotomies)

    it also depends on who is on the receiving end - ILI duals don't mind their their criticism and instructions (that other types may interpret as arrogance and take offense)

    "In fact, ILI is constantly provoking the initiative of his dual, making him chase himself, exhausting him in tactical games, cooling down his passions, extinguishing his fierceness, knocking down his ambitions, taking away some of the "harmful", "destructive" energy of his dual. Once ILI manages to "calm down" and "humble" his dual, he builds a relationship with him as an equal. He can take on a generously patronizing tone that, most interestingly, the SEE will hold up and support." (link)

    "ILI will be confounded by the frivolity and flippancy of his partner, his unscrupulousness, absence of self-criticism, and a fundamental unwillingness to admit mistakes. In these traits IEE is very much unlike ILI's dual, the SEE, who will carry out his assignments at whatever cost if has pledged to it, and who will listen to and accept the criticism of his mistakes rather than ignore it, especially if this criticism is fair and constructive." (link)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Do LII, analysts have the same issue?
    once again it depends on the listener - those who aren't appreciative of LII negativist Ti are more likely to feel annoyed and angered in conversation with them, while other types may react more favorably

    for the most part LII are perceived in this light less frequently - they are asking types (and not declaring as ILIs), with subjectivist logic which frames their thoughts as personal opinions and a 'softer' intuitive function in creative position, in combination with normative ethical function that adjusts their behavior to acceptable standards

    neither do SLIs as asking positivist types ... however SLIs display greater degree of confidence and no-bullshit groundedness in their opinions than ILIs (Si as base function enables them to hone into the actual rather than figurative interpretations of Ni bases) and on this basis they may claim the upper hand in debates with ILIs

    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Or perhaps do some of you believe that the individuals above are types wrongly
    perhaps, there is very little info to go by here

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    The ILI is you, isn't it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    really? How do they compare to LIIs though? If you've observed from experience.

    Sergey Ganin comes to mind when I think about that attitude being displayed by what might be an ILI here. He mutually comes of as arrogant and proud of it
    I'll provide an example tomorrow

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    The problem here is the word "since" right at the start. Unless you know the problem extremely well, you can't be so certain of your assumptions. The right word would have been "If".
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    ^^^^ wow that's a really clever pick up - would've changed everything hey

    Well what can I say about ILIs - they're incredibly critical so no surprises there

    I remember being really close to one for years and no kidding more often than not the conversation would involve complaining about people

    and not only that but she would remember/recall details from YEARS and YEARS ago - things any normal person would LET GO

    gosh i just got myself riled up about that - glad i've distanced myself from her

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    in my experience its not uncommon for ILI's to have aspergers.

    LII's are just a little awkward and gangly lookin. The only time LII's piss people off is because... they make people feel dumb.

    ILI's on the other hand... agh, irritating.

    I just had an ILI business partner leave the team for our gym, because he has to start his own gym now. He watched me and my EIE business partner start a gym, he feels the need to prove to himself that he can start a gym now. But that's not the problem. The problem is that, he comes to us and basically tells us very confidently that he is no longer going to be a part of our gym, and will be starting his own. This guy is our friend, and he's just being a pretentious douche, leaving us so that he can prove to himself that he's capable of just the same. If he was straightforward and honest and said, "I really need to start this gym on my own, it means a lot to my self esteem" or somethingn similar to that, we wouldn't have minded. But instead he posed the situation as, "Well, good luck losers, I'm gonna go start my own gym because I know what I'm doing and you guys don't."
    Out of interest do you still translate MBTI INTPs as LII? And mutually MBTI INTJs as ILI? If so I find that leads to mistypes since they can be either

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    it's nice to see someone who is so aware of his primate roots


    it's a combination of objectivist creative logic that frames ILI's opinions as objective statements (e.g. "your group is having personal time management issues" instead of "I believe/think/imo your group is having personal time management issues") and primarily declaring style of communication (ILIs are declaring by Reinin dichotomies)

    it also depends on who is on the receiving end - ILI duals don't mind their their criticism and instructions (that other types may interpret as arrogance and take offense)

    "In fact, ILI is constantly provoking the initiative of his dual, making him chase himself, exhausting him in tactical games, cooling down his passions, extinguishing his fierceness, knocking down his ambitions, taking away some of the "harmful", "destructive" energy of his dual. Once ILI manages to "calm down" and "humble" his dual, he builds a relationship with him as an equal. He can take on a generously patronizing tone that, most interestingly, the SEE will hold up and support." (link)

    "ILI will be confounded by the frivolity and flippancy of his partner, his unscrupulousness, absence of self-criticism, and a fundamental unwillingness to admit mistakes. In these traits IEE is very much unlike ILI's dual, the SEE, who will carry out his assignments at whatever cost if has pledged to it, and who will listen to and accept the criticism of his mistakes rather than ignore it, especially if this criticism is fair and constructive." (link)


    once again it depends on the listener - those who aren't appreciative of LII negativist Ti are more likely to feel annoyed and angered in conversation with them, while other types may react more favorably

    for the most part LII are perceived in this light less frequently - they are asking types (and not declaring as ILIs), with subjectivist logic which frames their thoughts as personal opinions and a 'softer' intuitive function in creative position, in combination with normative ethical function that adjusts their behavior to acceptable standards

    neither do SLIs as asking positivist types ... however SLIs display greater degree of confidence and no-bullshit groundedness in their opinions than ILIs (Si as base function enables them to hone into the actual rather than figurative interpretations of Ni bases) and on this basis they may claim the upper hand in debates with ILIs


    perhaps, there is very little info to go by here
    stratievkaya seems to dislike ILIs and SEEs its no wonder why that description is frankly quite negative; but its very interest never the less. So LIIs are much nicer in retrospect, how would you explain ganin, do you type him as ILI perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Out of interest do you still translate MBTI INTPs as LII? And mutually MBTI INTJs as ILI? If so I find that leads to mistypes since they can be either
    Hotdogs and Hamburgers. Sometimes INTP translates into both LII and ILI. Sometimes INTJ does too. And of course theres also the way off the wall type changes. I've tested as INTJ before on Myers.

    Ultimately i wouldnt translate Socionics types from Myers brigg, theres just too much inconsistency with the tests.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    awww

    *hugs chriscorey*

    every type can be a dick.
    Thank you for the virtual hug.

    It just seems like people are referring to ILI children or ILI teenagers/emotionally immature ILI. My ILI friend wrote this on a separate forum addressing how to raise an ILI/INTJ and it seems fairly accurate/helpful.

    As a kid, I wanted to call my own shots regardless of what everyone else was doing because they fit into a greater master plan. This can teach a young INTJ how to fend for themselves early, but it can also create an arrogant, antisocial approach to social life, where the INTJ believes they need nobody and yet still, know it all.

    I don't think the solution is to simply foster a belief that anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, and that you are always entitled to use "why?" as a way of disproving something you don't want to think or do. That essentially tells the child that they are always entitled to know why something is what they are expecting it to be, even if their expectations don't capture the entire picture. Sometimes "why?" leads somewhere, other times it halts you.

    Many INTJ, myself included, have a tendency to lock themselves into an algorithm of conclusions that seem very much non-negotiable and, typically, pretty negative. You have to teach an INTJ to free themselves from this state by interacting more directly with the world around them. Your logical conclusions will seem better-directed when what you perceive to be true is based on what is real.
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    The ILI in this picture appears to be barging in and spouting off assumptions and then telling the other party how to fix the problems the ILI assumes exists. Is there someone who wouldn't be irritated by such nonsense, particularly when such assumptions are completely false but presented as truth? We also don't know whether the LSI considers the ILI to be in a position to shell out such advice, and whether the advice was at all solicited to begin with.
    This is a rather interesting response with regards to how you perceive status to be an important attribute in determining whether advice is warranted or not for the LSI; the idea of requiring a ''position to shell out such advice'', is an alien concept to the ILI, LII and ILE in the overall friend group. When something is vaguely related to the topic at hand, a theory is pulled out of an ass as the LSI puts it, and the strange there is that its the general etiquette between ILI, LII and ILE who are always receptive to any ideas.


    To explain this a bit more clearly, I've observed consistently that the ILI, LII and ILE view problems as entirely abstract concepts. And as such issues are treated abstractly, regardless of whether they concretely exist or not, their ''intuition'' creates a stylized perception of the world. They frequently disregard details especially about people, the actual circumstance. Its no wonder why they have a haughty, detached outlook on the world, in the eyes of others.

    The difference with the ILE is that he is less trapped with his intuitive perception since he doesn't have the stubborn subjective lens the LII and ILI in the group have.

  29. #29
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    Not taking into account somebody's unique circumstances is a sign of narcissistic personality disorder, or sociopathic personality disorder.

    The larger part of this, bigger than socionics - is that it reminds me of the book 'dark souls' by Sara Strudwick. The LSI sounds yielding/people pleasing/ and empathetic, whereas the intp is coming off as arrogant, narcissistic, know-it-all. While you're utliziling good cognitive empathy for the "intp" to explain why they are like this, the main problem is the damage is being done. But white souls and dark souls are naturally attracted to each other like magnets, both hoping to change something in the person and learn from the other person.

    Notice in the beginning of the exchange, the "intp" starts off as aggressive. Meanwhile the other person gets defensive, which is actually what an aggressive person needs to continue to be aggressive. So the exchange continues. It doesn't stop until the LSI completely debases himself by apologizing for something, and then the narcissist mirrors this. "You were a shithead and I was completely in the right" gets reinforced in the narcissist's worldview, and so they then morph and say they are sorry too. They both weren't really apologizing but more following a social role.

    The LSI doesn't criticize the ILI until after he criticizes himself which shows submission in all places, something a battered housewife would do. Really any healthy person would say "You're talking to me like a cunt. Fuck off" and use physical force to teach the person why being an ass doesn't work, but by people pleasing/debasing himself - the lsi allows this power play to continue. This person is allowing himself to be targeted and victimized by an unhealthy individual. The intp obviously is subconsciously seeking how far they can get away with things, I call it 'how young would you smear feces on a baby.' The younger and more innocent, the hotter it is to the narcissist in question. The sub is playing with his own ideas. And he's taking him seriously instead of making fun of him back, which is what a sadist needs to be in control. I AM HURTFUL. I CAUSE PAIN. TELL ME I CAUSE PAIN. TELL ME WHAT A BAD BOY I AM. SAY IT.

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    dugga dugga dun Narc's Avatar
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    This seems more like a supervision relation to me. I'm going to agree with the assessment that the ILI is an ILE. Writing style seems more indicative of Fe valuing and gets less formal as the conflict becomes more real. A lot of Gamma NTs would be more prone to get more formal as the conflict progressed (I know I certainly do).

    I have a friend that I tentatively type Ti-ENTp that would deal with this sort of conflict in a similar way. He's very quiet and would be mistaken for an introvert, but has a huge amount of restless energy he doesn't properly spend that kind of gives him away.

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    What is debasing about apologizing?

    Also in your example the LSI is very nice, tbh. Even his apology is nice. IME LSI does not react to ILE like this at all, ILE pisses the shit out of LSI. And if it goes too far it's the ILE who gets beaten up at the end, and there are no apologies anywhere to be found.

    So.. the interaction here is really quite normal and with a good ending. Maybe you felt uncomfortable about it BECAUSE it was an encounter with a supervisor?

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    Blåblodig Inguz's Avatar
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    I place my money on the "LSI" being an LSE. First because the know-it-all approach seem to suit Gamma NT better than Alpha NT. Secondly because the "LSI" is so damn polite towards the end. "/.../ maybe I came into it at the wrong approach" sounds like some kind of Delta - mumbo jumbo. Third, an LSI that isn't a grammar nazi.


    Back to the actual question, it is because you completely lacked any sort of tact. Your intention was good but your words did not reflect this. If my hypothesis is right about the person in question being an LSE then this will also play a major role. Implying to an LSE that the LSE does not consider the consequences that the LSE's actions will have in the future is never a good idea unless you actually enjoy being scolded. This conclusion is also supported by the quote "we aren't having time management issues /.../" Seems like you hit him/her right in the Ni.

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    Inguz, your whole post made me LOL but this in particular:

    Quote Originally Posted by Inguz View Post
    "/.../ maybe I came into it at the wrong approach" sounds like some kind of Delta - mumbo jumbo. Third, an LSI that isn't a grammar nazi.



    This conclusion is also supported by the quote "we aren't having time management issues /.../" Seems like you hit him/her right in the Ni.

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