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Thread: ESE-ESFj and Ti seeking

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Default ESE-ESFj and Ti seeking

    So I have many Alpha friends because the ESE want to mother me and the ILE want to raise my spirits by being silly (well they are silly), the SEI want to sooth my emotions and the LII want to help me understand and analyze the world.

    I found it very interesting, however, when my I've lately noticed a pattern among my ESE friends reading particular books and I'm not sure if you are aware of any of these..."The Seven Habits of Effective People" and "The Secret" and "Take Time for Your Life." I ventured to find out why they read books like this. As a Socionist, patterns interest me and I find them fascinating.

    The general response was...When doing self improvement projects, it helps when I have a system to work on and it helps me see how everything is supposed to work when it's working correctly.

    Wow, I thought what a wonderful way of understand what an ESE is seeking.

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    Incessant narcissist masturbation aside...
    "The Seven Habits of Effective People", "The Secret"(probably) - Te-role motivated
    "Take Time for Your Life." - working on Ni PoLR

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I also find a bit of envy for Te here. Though systems is what they want to find, I also sense the mediocre ability for Te. I would imagine that Te types don't strive to make their lives as efficient as possible and only doing the things.

    I have to admit, I am also kind of envious of Ti types as I find them very thoughtful and analytical. They are able to rule out inconsistencies in information very quickly whereas I consider the inconsistency and don't rule it out until much later.

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    Funnily enough I'm currently listening to a lecture about the "Getting Things Done" book (here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo7vUdKTlhk) and trying to set it up. I've always found these self-help books interesting, although more often it's the "how do I do 'socialising'?" ones. I've also found a new type of self-help books - other that social and time-management - finance/investment self-help books. Oh god it's a whole new world.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    Funnily enough I'm currently listening to a lecture about the "Getting Things Done" book (here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo7vUdKTlhk) and trying to set it up. I've always found these self-help books interesting, although more often it's the "how do I do 'socialising'?" ones. I've also found a new type of self-help books - other that social and time-management - finance/investment self-help books. Oh god it's a whole new world.
    So you kind of do what I do...

    I read every book I can find on a topic, but unlike I think a Ti type, I'm more nit picky. I pick up things from books that I think is valuable information, and from this I try to make a collective of useful information. So do LII just find the book that is the most effective system in a singular source or do they make a compilation?

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    I HAVE noticed this, and I've wondered what type they could be too, bc they are infuriating. Both the books and the recommendations to read them that I get from people like my mom, aunts, and their friends (mostly) but even some from my peers.

    Possibly a handful of them ARE Ni-polr, and in those cases I have to be more understanding. But I've seen EIEs and ILEs too who like harp on about it. I've come to see these people (especially if I've found out that they read this - if they kept it to themselves then it would be OK) as essentially lacking, and attempting to cope by reading books and showing it off but not actually doing anything about it.

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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So you kind of do what I do...

    I read every book I can find on a topic, but unlike I think a Ti type, I'm more nit picky. I pick up things from books that I think is valuable information, and from this I try to make a collective of useful information. So do LII just find the book that is the most effective system in a singular source or do they make a compilation?
    I don't actually make a compilation where I put all the things I've learnt into a single resource. But I do (and I imagine most people do) what you said: take the useful information from books and apply them. Stuff which doesn't work for you you don't use, and stuff which does you may alter so it fits into your other ways of doing things. Then you come out with your very own personalised system of how to be organised. Then you leave your job, and then you write a book about time management. It's the ciiiiiircle of liiiiife.

    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Possibly a handful of them ARE Ni-polr, and in those cases I have to be more understanding. But I've seen EIEs and ILEs too who like harp on about it. I've come to see these people (especially if I've found out that they read this - if they kept it to themselves then it would be OK) as essentially lacking, and attempting to cope by reading books and showing it off but not actually doing anything about it.
    I feel like LIIs like learning a lot of stuff so that they can be competent. And self-help books can be useful to read because they make it feel like your developing yourself personally/professionally all from the comfort of your chair.

    I'm not sure if having Ni-polr is a reason to forgive them for being overly-preachy with their recommendations. It's true the hardest part is converting it from theory to practise, and because I've never been able to do it I don't go around telling people to read books. If it actually works for them then that may be different, but it's a bit of a slap in the face to say to someone, "do you want to improve yourself?" Anyway, IEIs strike me as one of the types that would reject self-help books because they can't be contained by no system. Unless the self-help book is Tyler Durden.*

    *Are there self-help books for different types? It could be a role thing.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So do LII just find the book that is the most effective system in a singular source or do they make a compilation?
    Neither. Just as I have never had a role model, nor do I have a shortlist of admired people, but I have admired characteristics sometimes illustrated by examples shown by (usually historical) people. The form/person/author exhibiting/transmitting the useful data/concept/knowledge/wisdom is far less important to me than the concept itself; I often can't even remember the author's name. Instead I simply read widely about the human condition, everything from ancient philosophy to theology to mythic poetry to fairy tales to self-help to psychology. Everything is absorbed and stored subconsciously in the structure that continues building and adjusting in my mind somewhere. Up to a point most self-help stuff is either redundant, or I could explain under what circumstances they apply, like whether probably for all time for all humankind or just in a certain time/space/both, where that time/space demarcation is likely to be, and therefore where is outside of it where the book's techniques can't be expected to be effective.

    Essentially, while I read many books, my ultimate 'reference' is the one I have built myself in my mind.

    But yes, my dual likes asking me for advice because I can provide her the logical structure from which the advice was derived. Basically, the advice usually works and I can explain why it did. It seems to give her comfort. And, she says when I explain it to her, she doesn't feel like an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssonyyy View Post
    Salon has the right idea I would l say.

    http://www.salon.com/2013/05/13/self...otton_partner/
    Self-help = Adventures in Marketing

    Ted Talks = Next Level Marketing

    As far as ESE's and , LII's tend to be a lot colder and skeptical vs ESE's and help them cut thru the bullshit. ESE work thru enthusiasm and can have a lot of energy, but they need someone to keep them from making mistakes and also to keep things orderly.

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    My SEE best friend used to recommend a lot of self-help books that drove me crazy ("Why Men Marry Bitches") for instance-- she sent me a list of notes she had made of this book, totally in earnest goodwill, with advice like "when men from work ask you out, say to them, 'I don't mix business and pleasure.' "

    I think for her it was a mix of having little faith in certain areas of her life and also wanting to be shown a way to make the results she wanted happen. It was a very particular manifestation of her E6ness and upbringing and Ni- and Te-seeking, etc. I started buying her books for presents, like memoirs from powerful successful women saying that they were really confused if they were choosing the right path when young too, but eventually realized that they got there anyway.

    Then, I started reading up on the enneagram and embarking on my own (personally-directed) self-help crusade and feel that I empathize a lot more now. We all seek meaning in different places, I guess.

    Addendum: we were no where near marrying age when she read that particular book, which made it all the funnier. I think she realized this too, b/c she made fun of herself for reading it haha.
    Last edited by lemontrees; 11-11-2013 at 06:05 PM.

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    sold a chinese budget tablet to a spanish expat ESFj earlier. just before we had more or less agreed on a sale she contacted me that she had found another tablet that was cheaper and supposedly better than mine. turned out she had a link to a site lying about the clock speed of the CPU (2Ghz instead of 1.2Ghz... i guess they can claim they made a typo) and a model that i had had very, very bad experiences with (wouldn't even run things like candy crush and struggled to run temple run etc). so i told her that and proved what i said about it effortlessly and she was so grateful she bought the tablet with a $20 tip. woot.

    ps. in case you was curious, she had an SO and so do i, so no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    sold a chinese budget tablet to a spanish expat ESFj earlier. just before we had more or less agreed on a sale she contacted me that she had found another tablet that was cheaper and supposedly better than mine. turned out she had a link to a site lying about the clock speed of the CPU (2Ghz instead of 1.2Ghz... i guess they can claim they made a typo) and a model that i had had very, very bad experiences with (wouldn't even run things like candy crush and struggled to run temple run etc). so i told her that and proved what i said about it effortlessly and she was so grateful she bought the tablet with a $20 tip. woot.

    ps. in case you was curious, she had an SO and so do i, so no.
    so.. the story here is that you conspired with a dual to exploit cheap third world labour.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    My SEE best friend used to recommend a lot of self-help books that drove me crazy ("Why Men Marry Bitches") for instance-- she sent me a list of notes she had made of this book, totally in earnest goodwill, with advice like "when men from work ask you out, say to them, 'I don't mix business and pleasure.' "

    I think for her it was a mix of having little faith in certain areas of her life and also wanting to be shown a way to make the results she wanted happen. It was a very particular manifestation of her E6ness and upbringing and Ni- and Te-seeking, etc. I started buying her books for presents, like memoirs from powerful successful women saying that they were really confused if they were choosing the right path when young too, but eventually realized that they got there anyway.

    Then, I started reading up on the enneagram and embarking on my own (personally-directed) self-help crusade and feel that I empathize a lot more now. We all seek meaning in different places, I guess.

    Addendum: we were no where near marrying age when she read that particular book, which made it all the funnier. I think she realized this too, b/c she made fun of herself for reading it haha.
    As long as they can make fun of themselves, that's all I ask. You can't make fun of someone if they already did it first

    But yeah it drives me crazy too.. if my mom starts on these books, I'm usually pretty harsh about it, like leave me alone I read much more highfalutin stuff than that crap. I probably sound obnoxious, but it's my mom, doesn't she have any idea about my likes and dislikes and general good taste?? (She is Te-ego though.) When it's other people, I can't be so blunt unfortunately.

    Uh.. sure, I'll check that out sometime.. sounds.... interesting. No no, I don't want to borrow it.. yes, I'm sure. Actually - oh - look at the time, have to run.
    Last edited by bolong; 11-11-2013 at 09:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    so.. the story here is that you conspired with a dual to exploit cheap third world labour.
    i bought stuff straight from the chinks rather than their foreign "exploiters". quite the opposite of what you so dumbly imply.

    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    i bought stuff straight from the chinks rather than their foreign "exploiters". quite the opposite of what you so dumbly imply.

    ...
    "chinks", really? Is this 1955?
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    no, i'm just retro. now stfu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    no, i'm just retro. now stfu.
    oh yeah, those Chicoms sure are savages: i read you loud and clear. see, i can be retro too.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirana View Post
    Neither. Just as I have never had a role model, nor do I have a shortlist of admired people, but I have admired characteristics sometimes illustrated by examples shown by (usually historical) people. The form/person/author exhibiting/transmitting the useful data/concept/knowledge/wisdom is far less important to me than the concept itself; I often can't even remember the author's name. Instead I simply read widely about the human condition, everything from ancient philosophy to theology to mythic poetry to fairy tales to self-help to psychology. Everything is absorbed and stored subconsciously in the structure that continues building and adjusting in my mind somewhere. Up to a point most self-help stuff is either redundant, or I could explain under what circumstances they apply, like whether probably for all time for all humankind or just in a certain time/space/both, where that time/space demarcation is likely to be, and therefore where is outside of it where the book's techniques can't be expected to be effective.

    Essentially, while I read many books, my ultimate 'reference' is the one I have built myself in my mind.

    But yes, my dual likes asking me for advice because I can provide her the logical structure from which the advice was derived. Basically, the advice usually works and I can explain why it did. It seems to give her comfort. And, she says when I explain it to her, she doesn't feel like an idiot.
    I find the above true of ESE. My sister especially calls me and will ask things like "what do you suggest a car should cost and how much down should I put, what should I look for." I often wonder..well she's an extravert, why doesn't she seek out sources herself and figure it out. Something about Fe stops her or she gets very annoyed when she has to sort out relevant information by herself. Although I can put out a fair amount of Ti, I often feel as though I miss segments of certain types of analysis on my feet or in the moment, so I often find myself incapable of through analysis and call her back, adding to things that she should look for or ask. I feel I do an ok job but I like that Ti types do a better job than I do because it's so natural for them to think things in categorical structures from the vast information they've collected. I keep having to collect and say, stop, think about it, feel like I've missed a category, collect and say. It's a lot easier for me to evaluate the moral character and actions of others. So natural for me to concept the things I feel a certain way for. For example I can define a relationship in terms of what I believe and feel is the right definition as it should be ideally observed, but coming up with a system is not really my forte.

    My sister and all my ESE friends to often seek out advice and since non have a dual they seek out advice from many people simultaneously and I feel that this is because none of us are Ti bases and we don't provide a full and adequate response individually; feeling that emptiness or lack of satisfaction, they try to combine more than one brain.

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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    Dammit, how am I supposed to know how much a car costs?
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    lol

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    As an ESFj, I think it's the SuperEgo block working here as a whole (Te+Ni). Feeling that you utterly lack in those areas and trying to learn from the easiest of reads (anything more advanced than Economics 101 really clogs up my mind). And also trying to find a system that works, childishly believing that there is such a system that will settle these things once and for all.

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    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    Dammit, how am I supposed to know how much a car costs?

    about $80,000 to $200,000 for a good one.

    an example car would be:

    http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-carrera-4s/

    Of course you can get cheap old cars too, but if you give advice on such things, and there's a problem with it you'll get blamed. So better to recommend new and more expensive, and let them compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    about $80,000 to $200,000 for a good one.

    an example car would be:

    http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-carrera-4s/

    Of course you can get cheap old cars too, but if you give advice on such things, and there's a problem with it you'll get blamed. So better to recommend new and more expensive, and let them compromise.
    Would be better if they told me what kind of car they were looking at and then I could google the price range. Too many variables about the car mean you can only set a massive range. Which is really no good if they're looking to rule out rip-offs.

    (Though if they're looking at cars at, say, a dealership, then they could compare the price of a few cars to their online price- if three cars in a row are overpriced then they probably all are. If they're trying to look for a good price range so that they buy a car which isn't too expensive but quality then... well they should figure out what they really need in a car and find one which cars fulfil that and rule out the ones which are too extravagant. Find a good car according to quality first then compare prices. You don't want to blame the fact your car sucks on the fact you "were looking for an average priced car".)
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kupava View Post
    As an ESFj, I think it's the SuperEgo block working here as a whole (Te+Ni). Feeling that you utterly lack in those areas and trying to learn from the easiest of reads (anything more advanced than Economics 101 really clogs up my mind). And also trying to find a system that works, childishly believing that there is such a system that will settle these things once and for all.
    Wonderful post

    Yes, I do agree with you. You guys do try to find systems that others have formed and tried and in hopes that these are legitimate ways of doing things.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 01-16-2014 at 09:04 AM.

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