Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 63

Thread: Preclusion by introverts to see extroverts as shallow/stupid and thus avoid duals

  1. #1
    jughead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NC
    TIM
    IEI
    Posts
    883
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Preclusion by introverts to see extroverts as shallow/stupid and thus avoid duals.

    Anyone else experience this? Most of the people I observe appearing to be extroverted, especially highly extroverted ones, I feel the need to thumb my nose at more because they appear so shallow and/or stupid. I mean this could just be that most people are stupid and me being of above average intelligence. Extroverts stick out more so you'll notice them more and all seem to have a stronger social proclivity that introverts find esp. shallow or worthless to them.

    This is the opposite of what many traditional duality statements say as to extroverted duals being seen as too good for introverts (perhaps this is from an outsiders perspectives looking at the two in a society that value extroversion?). But it does show how the inverse works in traditional socionics: the introvert is seen as a odd boring person, maybe nerdy (esp. NTs) or too "deep/emo" ( SF/NF "try hards"?) in a bad way. But in a roundabout way it seems like this duality thing is kinda like mutual correction/criticism at first as we adjust to each other but the shared j/p makes it easy for us to not hurt the other person and adapt over time. Of the SLE-Se's I've interacted with, I've started with this inclination, but ended up enjoying their impulsivity in getting things done which I would otherwise struggle to complete. ILE is similar but the shared intuition lets us easily talk and bond over ideas but not accomplish as much. IEE's we have the NF stuff to talk about but otherwise find each other mostly useless etc. LSE/LIE appear similar to SLE/ILE but their strong J function is like an OCD(J) person with a slacker(P) and is unstable.

  2. #2
    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    emotionz
    TIM
    SEI
    Posts
    1,114
    Mentioned
    100 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I used to feel this way as a knee-jerk reaction. Not so much these days.

    I've found also that extroverts don't necessarily talk about the things that they care about either- over time, I've noticed that at least in one on one conversations with them they'll often just say whatever comes to mind b/c they can tell that I don't have much to say. I do this too, when I'm with people even more introverted than me. I decided lately that the "shallowness" power dynamic isn't actually necessarily in introverts' favor, since they may think they can "see through" extroverts when in fact extroverts may be talking a lot and not revealing anything at all. Lol. In fact, I even had an ILE ex once who came right out and said that he overshared as a form of obfuscation- but I believe he was a bit pathological.

    Also extroverted duals are not necessarily extroverted in the societal sense.

  3. #3
    jughead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    NC
    TIM
    IEI
    Posts
    883
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I've seen seen all the extroverts do those obfuscations things, particularly ILE, SLE, IEE. It seems extroverts get good at that.

  4. #4
    kadda1212's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Hessen, Germany
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    660
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    No, it's not like I would think that everybody who is loud and outgoing must be stupid or shallow. Actually I'm not that quick to make any judgements. Over time I can get the impression of one certain person that he/she may be a little shallow or self-centered and because this person is blabbering all the time with the power of a machine gun I'll loose motivation to spend time with that certain person. I have one person in mind right now and somehow I don't know in what way duality would make sense for her, because whatever kind of introvert her dual would be, she would certainly make his ears bleed and talk him to death.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

  5. #5
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mind
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    568 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Maybe you just don't like those individuals who you think are "extroverted".

    A lot of people might be social for various reasons, including very introverted reasons. I've observed plenty of ESI/LSI/SEI queen bee, homecoming queen, valedictorian sorts because they're driven by a very strong internal drive to pursue these goals, these individuals are often social, engaged and pursue these goals very passionately. Form them, this symbol or image can be very important.

    A lot of extroverts in turn reject these social activities or goals, and can be more loners or reclusive while at the same time still focused externally, it might not even be focused on something human but something like the material world, space, science, or a study.

  6. #6
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,632
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    they'll often just say whatever comes to mind
    Yes.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  7. #7
    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Canada
    TIM
    9w8
    Posts
    3,284
    Mentioned
    124 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Have you ever tried a ltr with a fellow introvert? It leads to boredom and neither really feels comfortable over the long haul playing the role of the extrovert, because one of them has to. Shallowness and similar character traits can just as easily be found in introverts. Shallowness of character just seems more easily spotted in an extrovert because they reveal so much about who they are through their behavior. If you are avoiding shallow and stupid people, I think that is a healthy, no matter if they are your dual, or not. I just can't relate to the statement in the original post. I have met tons of interesting and attractive extroverts, no matter what their personality type. And so have you, I bet.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

  8. #8
    Eldanen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southeastern USA
    TIM
    ILI 5w4 sx/??
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    A lot of ESTps I've known come off as scary or intimidating to me. It's a wonder why, because they've never really hurt me all that badly, ever. A couple I've run across that didn't really register were your average Joe types. But those exist in every type. My issue is finding one who actually has a life (he will then seem daunting to approach), and getting him to pay attention to me. For more than five seconds. Some ESTps I've known, a couple really, have an argumentative nature that makes me run for the hills. But that's probably for he best anyway, as I don't see them as attractive. If I could only find Mr. Right. Aka Knight in shining armor delusion. Anyway

  9. #9
    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,808
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, but also I actually am shallow and stupid.
    Easy Day

  10. #10
    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Canada
    TIM
    9w8
    Posts
    3,284
    Mentioned
    124 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I want to add that I beleive all socionics theory aside, I think that extroverted/introverted is really the only dichotomy that could be counted on between two people, it's the whole opposites attract kind of thing. That and asking /declaring. You got those, personality wise the rest you could workout. I just wouldn't want to have to change those four pieces.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

  11. #11
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mind
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    568 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Temperament I think is hardest compatibility issue to overcome.

    The worst relationships for each type are those that have a opposing E/I and opposing J/P.

    I think it's more important to identify rationality/irrationality because this dichotomy if not aligned will create the most serious problems.

  12. #12
    Eldanen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southeastern USA
    TIM
    ILI 5w4 sx/??
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Yeah, but also I actually am shallow and stupid.
    Don't worry. It only makes you cuter.

  13. #13
    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Canada
    TIM
    9w8
    Posts
    3,284
    Mentioned
    124 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't know about that. On paper it sounds nice. What about your mirror? I just meant that everything aside, even if you didn't believe in socionics or anything, going with a personality who is your opposite on the extroversion/introversion scale is a safe bet.

    But, this is getting off topic.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

  14. #14
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA.
    TIM
    C-IEE Ne (862)
    Posts
    1,131
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    A lot of ESTps I've known come off as scary or intimidating to me. It's a wonder why, because they've never really hurt me all that badly, ever. A couple I've run across that didn't really register were your average Joe types. But those exist in every type. My issue is finding one who actually has a life (he will then seem daunting to approach), and getting him to pay attention to me. For more than five seconds. Some ESTps I've known, a couple really, have an argumentative nature that makes me run for the hills. But that's probably for he best anyway, as I don't see them as attractive. If I could only find Mr. Right. Aka Knight in shining armor delusion. Anyway
    Is it still a delusion if you realize that it's a delusion? That type of meta cognition is rare among the delusional types.

    At any rate, ESTps aren't scary. I find that they do make a lot of categorical judgments based on what they perceive from their senses. I think that's the primary reason why ENTjs "benefit" from them. They usually have sharp senses and accurately make logical deductions and that type of information is useful in assessing a person or situation.

    As for the short attention span, ESTps have a lot of energy and they need outlets in which to channel it. You'll probably have more success vying for their attention if you try striking up a conversation when they're tired and thus vulnerable to your ingress.

    IEE Ne Creative Type

    Some and role lovin too. () I too...
    !!!!!!

  15. #15
    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,808
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Don't worry. It only makes you cuter.


    Les be frans!
    Easy Day

  16. #16
    Eldanen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southeastern USA
    TIM
    ILI 5w4 sx/??
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Is it still a delusion if you realize that it's a delusion? That type of meta cognition is rare among the delusional types.

    At any rate, ESTps aren't scary. I find that they do make a lot of categorical judgments based on what they perceive from their senses. I think that's the primary reason why ENTjs "benefit" from them. They usually have sharp senses and accurately make logical deductions and that type of information is useful in assessing a person or situation.

    As for the short attention span, ESTps have a lot of energy and they need outlets in which to channel it. You'll probably have more success vying for their attention if you try striking up a conversation when they're tired and thus vulnerable to your ingress.
    I think I use it to remind myself that my expectations are probably unrealistic from a logical perspective. But the main part of me is insufferably stubborn in continuing to hope for something wonderful in spite of the logical part of me saying that it'll most likely never happen.

    And thanks for the tip . I tend to be at my best after I've been up for a while. So maybe that works out by itself. Lol

  17. #17
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles, California, USA.
    TIM
    C-IEE Ne (862)
    Posts
    1,131
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    I think I use it to remind myself that my expectations are probably unrealistic from a logical perspective. But the main part of me is insufferably stubborn in continuing to hope for something wonderful in spite of the logical part of me saying that it'll most likely never happen.
    Sure it can happen. It just takes a lot of money or other source of monetary resource.

    And thanks for the tip . I tend to be at my best after I've been up for a while. So maybe that works out by itself. Lol
    I hope things work out for you and your future SLE victim.

    IEE Ne Creative Type

    Some and role lovin too. () I too...
    !!!!!!

  18. #18
    Eldanen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southeastern USA
    TIM
    ILI 5w4 sx/??
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Sure it can happen. It just takes a lot of money or other source of monetary resource.



    I hope things work out for you and your future SLE victim.
    His monetary resource of course xD. And me too.

  19. #19
    Zola's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    68
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wacey View Post
    I want to add that I beleive all socionics theory aside, I think that extroverted/introverted is really the only dichotomy that could be counted on between two people, it's the whole opposites attract kind of thing. That and asking /declaring. You got those, personality wise the rest you could workout. I just wouldn't want to have to change those four pieces.
    This makes a lot of sense to me. Without those, how would you even talk to each other after a while without ending up talking at each other or trying to force conversation that will eventually just die out anyway?

    As for the OP, I tend to find (social) extroverts somewhat intimidating and/or confusing and/or intimidating and usually assume they'll find me boring.

  20. #20
    Arete GuavaDrunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Now in stores near you.
    TIM
    EIE 9w8-5-4 s?
    Posts
    1,524
    Mentioned
    100 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Predilection? Proclivity? Preclusion means to prevent something.

    Vocabulary aside - this article may be interesting.
    Reason is a whore.

  21. #21
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,617
    Mentioned
    632 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    i dont find most extroverts shallow and i've had extrovert friends who have approached me but i don't really approach them or i feel kind of disconnected like they have plenty of other friends and places to do and things to see or whatever so i don't really have a place in it. or like... with other introverts when i talk to them i might have to dig a little or idk, the progress i make in establishing a relationship is more obvious where with extroverts it feels like its kinda all out there to begin with, nothing particularly special? this isn't meant to diss extroverts or anything but i do find other introverts more interesting. (talking about social introversion/extroversion, though, not necessarily socionics-wise)

    i like the article @GuavaDrunk posted, its something i try to keep in mind and i don't think i'm ignorant of it so much as i just lack the patience, lol.

  22. #22
    InvisibleJim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Si vis pacem
    TIM
    para bellum
    Posts
    4,832
    Mentioned
    202 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ironically those who tend to be more willing to discuss more 'broad/superficial' topics can often find themselves greatly enjoying the company of those who bring out their deeper ideas and sentiments and vice-a-versa.

  23. #23
    dugga dugga dun Narc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    TIM
    Ni-ENTj 8w9 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,288
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    This thread clarifies something I've noticed over the years. Namely that introverts can be really dumb, but nobody really catches on because they keep their mouths shut more.

  24. #24
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,617
    Mentioned
    632 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    This thread clarifies something I've noticed over the years. Namely that introverts can be really dumb, but nobody really catches on because they keep their mouths shut more.
    if you keep relating things people say about type to yourself you will just keep getting angrier, you are too invested i think.

  25. #25
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,632
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ironically those who tend to be more willing to discuss more 'broad/superficial' topics can often find themselves greatly enjoying the company of those who bring out their deeper ideas and sentiments and vice-a-versa.
    Yeah, that's for sure. Or at the very least, understanding how your actions create a stable idea of yourself...that doesn't sound good but I can't easily express it properly.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  26. #26
    dugga dugga dun Narc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    TIM
    Ni-ENTj 8w9 sx/sp
    Posts
    1,288
    Mentioned
    101 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    if you keep relating things people say about type to yourself you will just keep getting angrier, you are too invested i think.
    I'm sensing snide bullshittery here. Are you assuming my comments were directed at you?

  27. #27
    he died with a felafel
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    326
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @JWC3: me too

  28. #28
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Extroverts might just be as guarded with regards to stuff they feel deeply about (i.e. have meaningful and intelligent conversations about) as introverts. We cut through your introversion and you cut through our extroversion to get to the depth. I am not going to just throw the treasures of my mind at you just because I am an extrovert.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  29. #29
    xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,469
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    what people say isn't always what they know
    Last edited by xerx; 11-08-2013 at 12:52 AM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

  30. #30
    The Soul Happy-er JWC3's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,808
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by felafel View Post
    @JWC3: me too
    Yeah, shits awful for us. Wanna talk about shallow stuff like purses and cars?
    Easy Day

  31. #31
    Blåblodig Inguz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    TIM
    IEI-Fe
    Posts
    106
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Personally it's a bit of initial avoidance of people who appears to not be particularly introspective.

  32. #32
    Park's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Beyond the blue horizon
    TIM
    SLI
    Posts
    13,088
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I used to feel this way as a knee-jerk reaction. Not so much these days.

    I've found also that extroverts don't necessarily talk about the things that they care about either- over time, I've noticed that at least in one on one conversations with them they'll often just say whatever comes to mind b/c they can tell that I don't have much to say. I do this too, when I'm with people even more introverted than me. I decided lately that the "shallowness" power dynamic isn't actually necessarily in introverts' favor, since they may think they can "see through" extroverts when in fact extroverts may be talking a lot and not revealing anything at all. Lol. In fact, I even had an ILE ex once who came right out and said that he overshared as a form of obfuscation- but I believe he was a bit pathological.

    Also extroverted duals are not necessarily extroverted in the societal sense.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

  33. #33
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just see some LSE as impossible. They don't understand my emotionality, they don't take the time to be tender and caring. I just see some of them as dismissive and easily swayed by assumptions.

  34. #34
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    5,932
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    I am allegedly an introvert, and I can seem pretty shallow and stupid. Whatever, though, some people just need to get out more.

  35. #35
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    I am allegedly an introvert, and I can seem pretty shallow and stupid.
    Sorry dude, you could never be as shallow and stupid as me. I just flutter through life chattering and I had to look up *introspection* to spell it right because the concept is so foreign to me. Man, I wish I could be DEEP like you introverts. Sucks to be me, but at least I get to make you feel better about being you because you are not pathetic and shallow like me. You are welcome.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  36. #36
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,331
    Mentioned
    209 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Sorry dude, you could never be as shallow and stupid as me. I just flutter through life chattering and I had to look up *introspection* to spell it right because the concept is so foreign to me. Man, I wish I could be DEEP like you introverts. Sucks to be me, but at least I get to make you feel better about being you because you are not pathetic and shallow like me. You are welcome.
    Ahem...you thought of yourself, what you are like, etc.
    Introspection!! *runs away madly*
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  37. #37
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,857
    Mentioned
    380 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Ahem...you thought of yourself, what you are like, etc.
    Introspection!! *runs away madly*
    Squirrel???
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

  38. #38
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,331
    Mentioned
    209 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Squirrel???
    Extroverted Squirrels


    Introverted Squirrel
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  39. #39
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,449
    Mentioned
    203 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm neither shallow nor stupid so I cannot relate.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  40. #40
    Arete GuavaDrunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Now in stores near you.
    TIM
    EIE 9w8-5-4 s?
    Posts
    1,524
    Mentioned
    100 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    *Wanders by like a passing cloud*

    Squirrel!

    *tickles dat belly*
    Reason is a whore.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •