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Thread: The Importance of one's Hidden Agenda

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Default The Importance of one's Hidden Agenda

    I know it's been some time since I've last posted. However, for the past year or so I have been studying a number of personality theories, trying to come to fresh perspectives about socionics. One pet theory I've recently developed is that our relations - specifically conflict and duality - have a lot to do with the hidden agenda. In other words, one's hidden agenda is more important to our personality structure than what most socionists think. I came to this conclusion by deeply introspecting about my life. I asked myself several questions: Why do I mind Se-egos? Why do I seek out Fe-egos? Or, alternatively: Why do I struggle with people? Why do I get along with people? I looked at my life, and noticed that, for some strange reason, I identify with the "ILE uncovered" description at socionics.com, and the "hidden agenda" of the ILE. I asked myself, "Does this play a role in my personality?" I realized that it does in a big way! In my case, I am constantly noticing how much people act like they either like me or dislike me in my relations. And, much like the socionics.com description says, I never talk about it and expect it from people, to the point that it makes me angry when people imply that they don't like me. This lead me to a strange conclusion: I greatly enjoy Fe-egos, because they are so friendly - they seem to like everyone, especially me. This seems to please my hidden agenda. By the same token, Se-egos are not exactly impolite, but bluntly honest, often making it clear that they don't like people - once again, especially me. Therefore, my personality structure seems deeply connected to my hidden agenda. In other words, if my hidden agenda is based upon how much people act like they like me - similar to that of the Inventor - I seem to seek out and be repelled by the notion of people touching on this function by the way they act. This would mean that the hidden agenda is the same as the suggestive and vulnerable functions! Or, that the the three are inter-connected. And that is exactly why, even though I seem exactly like the inventor, I call myself "analyst"; I am attracted to Fe-egos and repelled by Se-egos - because of how they act toward my likeable traits. This is similar to what I would expect in my dual; someone who is reasonably intelligent, who likes learning from me, and who is picked on by the critic for not being "intelligent enough." In other words, just as I'm reasonably likeable, they are reasonably intelligent, and, just as I offer them intelligence, they offer me friendliness in return, and picking on our "hidden agenda" would only get either of us upset. Therefore, I must ask: do you think that there is something to this? I.e. that one's hidden agenda plays a key role in our relations... In any event, just a thought...
    Last edited by jason_m; 11-06-2013 at 05:10 AM.
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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    I think the hidden agenda plays a very important role in terms of orientation in info seeking. I believe it feeds our base element, which feeds our hidden agenda, which feeds our base, in a mutual growth cycle kind of thing. Enough so that I think some people might even confuse their hidden agenda as being their base element. (Particularly Nx hidden agendas, and when people forget that all types have at least the experience of both Intuitional elements.)
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    InvisibleJim's Avatar
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    I've never heard of an ILE who has issues with people disliking them, honest.

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I think the hidden agenda plays a very important role in terms of orientation in info seeking. I believe it feeds our base element, which feeds our hidden agenda, which feeds our base, in a mutual growth cycle kind of thing. Enough so that I think some people might even confuse their hidden agenda as being their base element. (Particularly Nx hidden agendas, and when people forget that all types have at least the experience of both Intuitional elements.)
    It's true. When I read some people's (creative) writing, I can often pick out how both the base function and hidden agenda are really strong. It's like one is the thing you build *with* and the other is the one you build *towards.* Both create some sort of structure or meaning to the whole thing.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    @jason_m, this sounds really fascinating, and I feel there is really something to it,. but my brain isn't wrapping around it right now; its late and I will have to look again more closely. But I am confused. You are INTJ? Isn't your Hidden Agenda "To be healthy"?? Not seeing that work with what you wrote here. Am I missing something?

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I've never heard of an ILE who has issues with people disliking them, honest.
    Ah, its not to be liked. Its to be loved.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I think the hidden agenda plays a very important role in terms of orientation in info seeking. I believe it feeds our base element, which feeds our hidden agenda, which feeds our base, in a mutual growth cycle kind of thing. Enough so that I think some people might even confuse their hidden agenda as being their base element. (Particularly Nx hidden agendas, and when people forget that all types have at least the experience of both Intuitional elements.)
    This whole Hidden Agenda idea is interesting to me and I really think there is something to it, though I do not feel a deep understanding of this HA idea.

    Ann, you say you feel it plays an important role in orientation of info seeking, and it does not surprise me to see you say it here because you have said as much in our discussions -- however I have not been able to follow your line of thinking in it, and still really can't here. This does not mean you don't have a point simply that I am not following. And I am not inviting you to try harder to get though to me, which might make it more confusing. As with Jason's here, I will just give it another better look again later.

    But maybe just the one part I point out here: "an important role in orientation of info seeking" which is not making sense to me, that you can probably explain.

    I see how that works for thinkign through why a SEE seeks a HA to know and why an IEE seeks its HA to know - yes, for the different types its different things they want to know about.

    I can see how this might apply to "to understand" as well.

    Maybe possibly To be healthy - maybe -- seeking info to achieve healthiness. Excluding action to achieve healthiness if HA is necessarily info??

    But how in the world could I apply it to my SLI's "To love"? It is not info being sought. Or, the "To be loved" HA. Or the "To believe". Info-seeking does not work so well at all with these. These are states of being, not of knowing.

    ?

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Eliza,
    If you get too caught up in the specific words used, rather than the meanings, you'll miss out on many of the finer points.

    The elements represent types of information which humans use to understand their world.
    Elements of information serve different functions for different types.
    Socionics is about processing information.

    Si doesn't mean "information about health". It means 'dynamic sensory fields'.
    An example of using 'dynamic sensory fields' information would be to create comfort, fine motor control, to create a harmonic sensory environment, etc. It's part of the information we all use when we feel muscle soreness each time we move, or the bloated gut feeling as we eat a bag of pork rinds, or the empty tight feeling that signals it's time to eat.

    Si hidden agenda seeks information about 'dynamic sensory fields' which is used to feed their 'static ethic/logic fields'.
    Or another way: Si mobilizes 'static ethic/logic fields', which in turn feeds the seeking of 'dynamic sensory fields'.

    For SLI,
    Fi hidden agenda means that 'static ethic fields' (aka the attraction/repulsion fields we feel towards things, people, places, ideas) mobilizes their 'dynamic sensory fields' (for example how they orient themselves within their environment) which feeds their attraction/repulsion to their orientation which mobilizes them to adjust their sensory fields again. Feeding into each other until they've adapted to a "comfortable" or enjoyable spot. Si->Fi->Si->Fi->Si

    Now, this orientation and 'spot' could be towards/away from a person.
    Towards/away from an emotional connection.
    Levels of tenseness/relaxation when around a person, place, thing, and/or idea.
    Etc.

    Think for a moment about the sensory and psychological affects of 'love'.
    More specifically, the dynamic sensory relationships with the person and the orientations of attractions to that person which might all combined constitute "love".
    Those combined sensory and psychological affects will give you a possible indication of what "love" feels like to SLI.


    (Note: this was written off the top of my head and could use some work, but the essence of what I am pointing at is what matters.)

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    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    You've had Se-egos tell you directly that they don't like you so that's why you don't like them? Are you sure you're not an Fe-PoLR instead of an Fi-PoLR?

    An Fi-PoLR would attempt to ingratiate themselves with the person in question to change their attitude or else simply avoid said person. Fe-Hidden agenda and all.

    IEE Ne Creative Type

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    I see the Hidden Agenda is a strong and valued function in a person. This can seem to against basic Socionics theory that says that only Ego and Id-block functions are strong. I personally disagree because the HA is actually 'the goal' of a person. There can be many interpretations to one Hidden-Agenda. For example Fe-HA seems to look to an outside observer as 'to be loved' only. This is okay. But if you get to know people with Se-HA, they're very much also interested in the creation of positive emotions and involving in atmosphere of positive emotions in groups, where there is lots of laughing, joking, and a general elevated mood. So the Fe-HA is not only to be loved but also to experience positive emotions, see for example SLE.

    The SLI HA on the other hand has very much to do with not only 'to love' which is an over-simplification of it. It has also to do with 'to be kind', 'to be soft on others' feelings', 'to establish close bonds with people', etc. The LSE HA is Ne, which is over-simplified as 'to be perfect' but it's more than that too. It has to do with the LSE's interest in all speculative fields, such as new ideas, forms of mysticism or spirituality, new possibilities and creativity in general. He's not able to produce these by himself so he feels attracted to people who can, people who have Ne on their Ego-block. At times though the subject may be very productive in his HA, meaning he/she is going to be able to look like someone who has the IE of his/her HA as leading function or at least creative function. This is why the HA to me is both strong and valued.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FREDDIE View Post
    I see the Hidden Agenda is a strong and valued function in a person. This can seem to against basic Socionics theory that says that only Ego and Id-block functions are strong. I personally disagree because the HA is actually 'the goal' of a person.
    From personal experience, I can say that my Si is valued (that is, I definitely want "to be healthy") but I would describe my proficiency in it as "weak" because I get overly neurotic about it. I'll insist upon stuff being done just in a certain way otherwise I'll feel like it's dirty and freak out. It's not a ridiculous amount, but I wouldn't describe it as something I'm really comfortable with like I am with Ti or Ne, where I float speculative ideas just for kicks.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

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    FREDDIE I agree with you in the respect that it is the goal of the person

    At least it is for me when making decisions
    With Ni as my hidden agenda I'm always talking like: 'where this will lead' 'is this going to last' 'i hope i don't get sick of this thing i'm about to purchase' 'will this help me to further my goals in life'
    I constantly focus on my health to protect my future - and this is like one of my main focusses in life

    But I suspect these things will probably be viewed as too simplistic for Ni egos

    Is Ni the function which creates mental rest? When I talk to IEIs I will present them with reality (Se) and they are able to wrap it all up in a bow with the offer of a few words and I'm able to relax
    I have to admit I have absolutely no idea how to create this on my own

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    FREDDIE I agree with you in the respect that it is the goal of the person

    At least it is for me when making decisions
    With Ni as my hidden agenda I'm always talking like: 'where this will lead' 'is this going to last' 'i hope i don't get sick of this thing i'm about to purchase' 'will this help me to further my goals in life'
    I constantly focus on my health to protect my future - and this is like one of my main focusses in life

    But I suspect these things will probably be viewed as too simplistic for Ni egos

    Is Ni the function which creates mental rest? When I talk to IEIs I will present them with reality (Se) and they are able to wrap it all up in a bow with the offer of a few words and I'm able to relax
    I have to admit I have absolutely no idea how to create this on my own
    If you present them with reality in terms of concrete facts, it is Te more than Se. It can be Se if you're saying 'sky is blue' or some very concrete thing, but presenting facts is Te-related.
    Both Si and Ni create mental rest or mental peace, and both Se and Ne create mental activeness and physical activeness. So it can be Ni creating you mental rest, or perhaps some Si and then you're probably not talking to an IEI. But Ni creates mental rest ime by just concluding, 'well that's it, nothing to do about it anyway', or 'well this is really the best way to go' because Ni has a quality of obstinate faith in what one thinks is the best. An Ni type may be able to convince someone of the craziest things because they present it with such firmness and faith that others actually end up believing any stupid ideas they have. See Hilter for example FeNi... ENFJs and INFPs can be totally persuasive even of the blatant stupidity of the things they believe in, because Ni transmits self-assurance to others. Add Fe to this and you have a person who can manipulate others easier, either on purpose or just going by the way they believe to be right.

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    I really like that post.
    And it seemed to describe some of my frustrations with myself, and how I've been able to overcome some of it.
    Thanks for linking/writing that.
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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Not sure how much this applies to everybody, but here's my experience with what you've written (I like it quite a bit btw):

    Whenever I find myself stressed out about something, my first initial instinct is to motivate myself. "Hurry up, go and do the thing, life waits for no man, get off your ass and GO, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR HOLY FUCK GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER YOU HAVE A LIFE TO LIVE FGIJFGIJOFGDADG." Something along those lines. This is also the kind of response I get from people when I talk about the things that get me down, like I'm expected to emotionally detach myself from my issues and just *do* something. That kind of advice only serves to stress me out even more, because all it does is give me more end goals without any means of getting there, which just riles me up even further with no viable outlet for all the energy building up.

    The only solution out of this, I've found, is to stop mentally spinning all of these issues around for a while and just let them settle into their natural states. By throwing everything in a rock tumbler and seeing what sticks together, I just end up compulsively reassigning possible outcomes to an infinite degree and nothing ever gets solidified as The Thing To Do. Learning to stop the kaleidoscope from spinning and permutating can be counterintuitive and tricky, but it absolutely is the best thing I've found to give myself clarity towards whatever issues I have. Meditation, nature excursions, something warm to drink, good music; whatever the hell it is, something to shift me back down a couple gears into neutral and convince myself that I don't have to *do* anything. By letting the dust settle, the patterns will reveal themselves.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post

    The only solution out of this, I've found, is to stop mentally spinning all of these issues around for a while and just let them settle into their natural states. By throwing everything in a rock tumbler and seeing what sticks together, I just end up compulsively reassigning possible outcomes to an infinite degree and nothing ever gets solidified as The Thing To Do. Learning to stop the kaleidoscope from spinning and permutating can be counterintuitive and tricky, but it absolutely is the best thing I've found to give myself clarity towards whatever issues I have. Meditation, nature excursions, something warm to drink, good music; whatever the hell it is, something to shift me back down a couple gears into neutral and convince myself that I don't have to *do* anything. By letting the dust settle, the patterns will reveal themselves.
    I have been doing a ton of yoga lately for this reason. When I go into "GO, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR HOLY FUCK GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER YOU HAVE A LIFE TO LIVE FGIJFGIJOFGDADG," I do yoga, walk the dogs, etc. I call it my periods of intense self-dualization (SiSiSiSi) to calm overwhelmed Ne. It does work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    self-dualization (SiSiSiSi)
    Masturbation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    I think the creative function is more strongly intimately tied to the HA, and vice versa, to the point that the relationship can be specified in an explicit way.
    it is, in the way the HA is tied to the creative function of the dual (and to a lesser extent, the mirage):

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-function.html

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-function.html

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-creative.html
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    The hidden agenda function is probably the most make or break function in a person's type. That is, it's the function that determines whether someone succeeds or fails in life. It's the function that provides fuel to and opportunity for the creative, as well as guarding against the weakest function. Without help in the area of the hidden agenda, people often look like degenerates or people who aren't worth much. A great SEE/ILI example of this comes from the storyline of the movie Looper.

    I think a better way of describing the superid functions in general, rather than calling them strong or weak, would be to say they are "primal". They are often very strong but within a limited context. That's something that is quite interesting. I think it's one way we draw our duals. It isn't simply from a fulfillment of functional needs, but also mutual admiration because, "Hey, this guy can do what I do too."

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I've never heard of an ILE who has issues with people disliking them, honest.
    With me, it's more that obsession and anxiety over not being able to tell how 'close' I am with someone. Like, if I just met someone and think they're really cool, I'll start over-thinking how close we are and if I can ask them if we can hang out or if we're not close enough to that but what about coffee? Okay nevermind I'll just keep acting like normal when I see them in class. The good thing about Fe-egos, is that they're good about making it very clear where you stand with them in that regard, so there isn't any time or need to worry about what is or is not appropriate. They're forthright about "Hey, I like you and like you doing this, we should hang out outside of class." sort of thing. It soothes my anxiety.

    I had this the other day when I was trying to decide if I was close enough to this dude from work to ask him for a ride home when I was stranded on campus. .-.

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    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    I dunno what my hidden agenda is.

    Te or Ni?


    I'm good at pretending that I know the best way to do something.. or I google it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    I dunno what my hidden agenda is.

    Te or Ni?


    I'm good at pretending that I know the best way to do something.. or I google it.
    Ni yo

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Ni yo
    oh. yeah, Idk how I display that..

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    ive noticed myself when i'm giving advice talking about how things are likely to develop or giving things time to sift and come to light.
    i wonder if some of the things i'm drawn to that seem "4-ish & d33p" or whatever could be related to Ni HA.
    i think i'm good at Ni until i'm close around an Ni ego. and i've been typed Ni ego by a couple people.

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    Ha, yeah same. I'm good at Ni and Te until an actual Ni and Te is around and then I look stupid because they'll be like... "Aw, A for effort..." and give me a pat on the head.

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    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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