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Thread: LIIs-INTjs on feminism

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    Default LIIs-INTjs on feminism

    I really don't know about you, but I'm definetely feminist. I don't see how you can be an INTj female (or male, for that matter) and not be. After all, society for one thing doesn't understand us, and thus they frown upon us. Or, at least that's what's happened in my experience.
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    How would you feel if a guy didn't shower or shave or rolled around in his own feces all day?

    It's just insanity. All feminsits are lonely for that reason.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Huh?


    You both need to clarify what you wrote on the double
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP II
    Huh?


    You both need to clarify what you wrote on the double
    Feminsits are women that don't have any self-resepect, but think guys should give them attention even if they don't care about themselves. They want to be filthy, and think that's OK. It's not to me.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    For one thing, I shower. And shaving is simply a personal preference, not something that's a necessity. And for another thing, who says that all feminists are idiots who totally neglect personal hygiene.

    Besides all that, feminism is the belief in political, social and economical equality of men and women. Everything else is simply adopted by some who want to make a statement against our culture.

    Idiot.
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    uh, well, I don't like stinky women, or women that don't respect themselves. I don't think either are healthy.

    But I'm not sure how to orientate that in regard to feminism.


    I can see how, for a female INTj especially, it would be a good cause to seek to correct the world through --- feminism. But I don't know what is being meant by 'feminism' here, either.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky

    Feminsits are women that don't have any self-resepect, but think guys should give them attention even if they don't care about themselves. They want to be filthy, and think that's OK. It's not to me.

    Who says we don't have any self-respect? I have loads of self respect, and I'm not dirty. Every other feminist I know is the same way as me, and I don't want special attention-that isn't the aim of feminism. The aim of feminism is to provide equal standards and expectations for men and women.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastermind
    Besides all that, feminism is the belief in political, social and economical equality of men and women. Everything else is simply adopted by some who want to make a statement against our culture.

    Idiot.

    In regard to what is bolded....



    Oh, well yeah, I definitely believe in that. I just don't call it 'feminimism'. I just 'see it that way', or see that as the truth.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP II
    I can see how, for a female INTj especially, it would be a good cause to seek to correct the world through --- feminism. But I don't know what is being meant by 'feminism' here, either.
    What I mean by feminism is that I want equality. I don't want women to be objects, or to be held down by false, traditional garbage. I want people to respect what I do, or what I say, because of it's credibility and value, and I don't want people to ignore me or discriminate me because of the make up of my chromosomes. All discrimination based upon uncontrollable things such as gender, race, nationality, family and the like disgusts me, because it's absolutely pointless and absolutely stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP II
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastermind
    Besides all that, feminism is the belief in political, social and economical equality of men and women. Everything else is simply adopted by some who want to make a statement against our culture.

    Idiot.

    In regard to what is bolded....



    Oh, well yeah, I definitely believe in that. I just don't call it 'feminimism'. I just 'see it that way', or see that as the truth.

    Unfortunately, not everyone believes as you or me. Many still beleive in sexism, and thus, we had to name the truth, so to speak. And that's what feminism is, not neglecting to shave or take care of yourself or anything like that, simply providing equality for everyone.

    And I wasn't calling you the idiot.
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    (I know, I should have deleted 'idiot' from my quote)


    Anyway, for a possible feminist book...... maybe you'd like "Jesus and the Lost Goddess". It has to do with spirituality, and I haven't read much of it at all yet, but maybe you should check it out.




    So, to readress the original intent of this post: yes, I am with you.
    Feminism, or gender equality, is a necessary part of my ideal, my world vision, my changing for the future as well...... reminds me of something form the socionics profile..........

    Quote Originally Posted by socionics
    2. "Justice is my trade". This is a type of a revolutionary or a political conspirator. In a conflict situation he usually organizes a committee to punish the offender. S/He believes that everything in the world must be logical and consequently just.
    http://socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/index-rels.html
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    i agree with gender equality, yet do not agree with much of feminist literature. it is often a silly charaterization of situations and is riddled with logical inconsistencies.

    for instance, the issue of blaming the victim of rape for the rape as to allow the criminal to escape judgment. while i think rape is always wrong, and the criminal should be justly punished, i cannot resolve the victim of all responsibility for her own actions as she is a sentient being capable of foresight, just the same as every other person must take some responsibility for ones own safety. whether the crime is theft or rape, precautions should be taken before hand. i encounter accusations from feminists because i think precautions against all crime should be taken, and every person has a responsibility to themselves. i don't wear diamonds and gold in the "bad" part of town, because i know i will be at risk of being beaten and robbed.

    the condemnations from feminists are justified because feminist literature always portrays, in a way, a conspiracy by men to oppress women, and rape is used by men to subjugate women. sure, rape is absolutely bad, and the lofty goals of cultural change are commendable, but i just cannot agree with the literature on certain issues, such as this one. i understand the agenda of feminism, and i support it, but such ideas render some literature fatuous.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy
    for instance, the issue of blaming the victim of rape for the rape as to allow the criminal to escape judgment. while i think rape is always wrong, and the criminal should be justly punished, i cannot resolve the victim of all responsibility for her own actions as she is a sentient being capable of foresight, just the same as every other person must take some responsibility for ones own safety. .
    I highly recommend that you watch "The Accused."
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094608/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mastermind
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky

    Feminsits are women that don't have any self-resepect, but think guys should give them attention even if they don't care about themselves. They want to be filthy, and think that's OK. It's not to me.

    Who says we don't have any self-respect? I have loads of self respect, and I'm not dirty. Every other feminist I know is the same way as me, and I don't want special attention-that isn't the aim of feminism. The aim of feminism is to provide equal standards and expectations for men and women.
    I have no problem with equality in the work place. However, you DO have equality. "Equality" in feminism reaches out to much more disturbing places that I can't agree with though.



    As an aside, I'm SO sick of people bitching that they aren't treated equally when being hired. Look, women think that evil men take their jobs, fat people think that skinny people get the jobs, midgets think that tall people took their jobs, ugly people think that handsome people took their jobs, black guys think the WHITE MAN took it, latinos think that the WHITE MAN took it, and asians think that the WHITE MAN took it.

    So I guess all of these tall, athletic, good looking WHITE MEN get all of these good jobs?

    Wrong

    Now we have affirmative action that gives that guys job to the woman, the black guy, the latino, the asian, the miget... what just happened?!?

    It's just politcal bullshit. If you weren't hired for a job maybe it's because you're... not qualified. OMG. Imagine the thought.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I am a feminist. I like men, I shower, I shave, I have self-respect.

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    Feminism takes the disparity between the sexes rather seriously and thus seems rather self-defeating to me. I don't see why it should matter either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Feminism takes the disparity between the sexes rather seriously and thus seems rather self-defeating to me. I don't see why it should matter either way.
    Pedro, I wonder if you would kindly explain how in your opinion, taking the disparity between the sexes seriously is self-defeating?

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    affirmative action -- yuck. I know of a couple instances where hirerers (lol, what word am I looking for?)
    headhunters?

    had to meet their quota of women or minorities and so jobs were given to people who were so far underqualified it was ridiculous.

    Blah. See, to me measures like that do NOT make things more equal, they just give special treatment to certain groups at the detriment of others, exactly what they were trying to avoid.
    Yeah, I think it just makes things worse.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    I am a feminist. I like men, I shower, I shave, I have self-respect.
    ... may I ask why you consider yourself a "feminist"?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Pedro, I wonder if you would kindly explain how in your opinion, taking the disparity between the sexes seriously is self-defeating?
    If your aim is equal treatment of the sexes then it would be better to annihilate the concept of sex and interpret humanity in terms of some variable it has in common. Feminism is unnecessary and inhibits its stated aim.

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    I was going to post a perhaps unpleasant joke concerning why someone is still considered feminst, but I chose not to.


    edit
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky

    ... may I ask why you consider yourself a "feminist"?
    I consider myself a feminist because I believe that males and females are intellectually equal. I also believe that they should be economically and politically equal in society as well and I will participate in any action that will help cause this to be a reality.

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    I believe all of that, and I HATE gender roles with every fiber of my being. I don't consider myself a feminist (though I have been called a feminazi on more than one occasion).
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    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky

    ... may I ask why you consider yourself a "feminist"?
    I consider myself a feminist because I believe that males and females are intellectually equal. I also believe that they should be economically and politically equal in society as well and I will participate in any action that will help cause this to be a reality.

    I don't mean to sound mean, but

    shouldn't you call yourself an "equalist"?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I also think that most of the jokes and stereotypes about feminists are a bit tired, unoriginal and lame.
    It is almost like saying the men who come up with jokes about feminists are all women battering, emotionally & socially insecure, porn-addicted thugs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP II


    I don't mean to sound mean, but

    shouldn't you call yourself an "equalist"?
    O.K then

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    That would make you an egalitarian like me. I do not prefer feminism, though. I like it about as much as it's inverse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    That would make you an egalitarian like me. I do not prefer feminism, though. I like it about as much as it's inverse.
    Indeed, for me it is not really that important what I am called (within reason :wink: ). I think it is the egalitarian principle that is most important to me.

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    Ahh, you're a hoooo-wah and you know it.




    Yes, eglitarian it is, then. I'm one of those, two.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Ok, well, I admit it...I want the best of both worlds.

    Personally, I have never understood the feminist literature, and when I start reading something that is showing signs of the "Goddess Athena in the Business World" and stuff like that, I toss it aside. I don't want to hear about the bitching and moaning, put someone else down so we can raise ourselves up, crap.

    I also get irritated with the stupid things that some "feminists" do....like putting down females who choose to be a housewife, who choose to raise their children instead of sending them out, and who choose not to attempt to be amazonian butches. I also hate the concept of someone else striving to set up females being called into military duty just like the males.

    Dammit, I don't WANT to be a male, I just want to have the freedom to pursue my own course, and allow other people male or female to pursue theirs.

    *end non-TiNe rant*
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Ok, well, I admit it...I want the best of both worlds.

    Personally, I have never understood the feminist literature, and when I start reading something that is showing signs of the "Goddess Athena in the Business World" and stuff like that, I toss it aside. I don't want to hear about the bitching and moaning, put someone else down so we can raise ourselves up, crap.

    I also get irritated with the stupid things that some "feminists" do....like putting down females who choose to be a housewife, who choose to raise their children instead of sending them out, and who choose not to attempt to be amazonian butches. I also hate the concept of someone else striving to set up females being called into military duty just like the males.

    Dammit, I don't WANT to be a male, I just want to have the freedom to pursue my own course, and allow other people male or female to pursue theirs.
    You know anndelise, the whole point of me posting in this topic is because I wanted to make clear that all not "feminists" are the same or believe the same things. However, that very lame practice of bashing the feminists is very fashionable right now and the silly stereotypes about all feminists still hold.

    Some people who consider themselves feminists believe that women should make the most of their brain as well as their looks and that there is honour in purposefully and independently choosing your own profession including that of being a housewife. Like you, most feminists I know like being female and do not wish to be male at all. They do not desire to put men down to elevate themselves as they often have fathers, uncles and brothers that they respect and wish the best for. Most feminists are really only trying to get a level playing field for everyone. In that respect, feminism can also be of benefit to men.

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    i am an egalitarian sometimes. i just hope that animals upgraded to human-level sentience, cyborgs, clones, ai programs, bio-synthetic hybrids, and the inanimate are afforded the same luxury being regarded as "basically the same" as "us" one day. other times i prefer a uniqueifization of the cosmos.

    the most basic thing that we have in common is math. we are math incarnate. i hope our worldview switches to such one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    However, that very lame practice of bashing the feminists is very fashionable right now and the silly stereotypes about all feminists still hold.
    So, does the fact that I only bitched about
    some "feminists"
    mean I'm only half lame? :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise

    So, does the fact that I only bitched about
    some "feminists"
    mean I'm only half lame? :wink:
    Technically, yes

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    if anything i am a bit misogynistic in this regard

    at base though, i think that there should be an unprecedented equality among all living things that i don't think is attainable right now
    lol

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    Feminism, the very thought of it makes me annoyed. I would also like to have equal rights however feminist's seem to turn into men hating bitches. They loose sight of perception. I think a lot of their drive comes not from a desire to create a better world, but squewed and bitter because men have treated them badly or never given them the attention they think they deserve.

    Im probablly stepping on a lot of womens toes here. Now i like women. The ones who are nice and dont have a chip on their shoulder. I do agree there is a lot of work to be done for equal rights but hating men isn't the way to get things done.

    I also think, at least from my point of view in Australia its becomming increasingly more a womens world. Women seem to dominate in the sex department because they have 1000's of guys hitting on them and it beefs up their confidence. They get massive benefits for having children here and half the women i work with are sick twice a month to take care of their kids.

    My old boss who is an absolutely wonderful man had two kids. When his ex wife broke up with him she made up stories to tell the police so that he wouldn't get to see them any more. He ended up getting a raw deal in the custody battle and she gets a massive proportion of his pay. She now has a new boyfriend who is really rich, so at her house the kids have a massive tv, satellite tv, xbox 360 etc. When the kids go to my bosse's house they have nothing because he cant afford it.

    Now i know that last example is an Isolated case, but it proves the need for "perception" in these matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    affirmative action -- yuck. I know of a couple instances where hirerers (lol, what word am I looking for?)
    headhunters?

    had to meet their quota of women or minorities and so jobs were given to people who were so far underqualified it was ridiculous.

    Blah. See, to me measures like that do NOT make things more equal, they just give special treatment to certain groups at the detriment of others, exactly what they were trying to avoid.
    Yeah, I think it just makes things worse.

    I see that! I'm just tired of all the crap with expectations and limitations put upon people of a certain gender. For example, for forever before the modern feminist movement, women weren't allowed to work. They had to stay at home and take care of their house. I will never understand women that do that, to me, it's stupid. However, even now a lot of women want to stay at home, and for some reason because most women have some sort of inborn nurturing nature (believe me, I don't!) a lot of other people still think that a woman's place is in the home, and cling to tradition veiws when what I'm asking for is equal opportunities and equal judgement and equal expectations. If you're going to encourage a man to go be an engineer, encourage a woman. See?
    Roboticist: Someone who conceptualizes, designs, builds, programs and experiments with robots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    Feminism, the very thought of it makes me annoyed. I would also like to have equal rights however feminist's seem to turn into men hating bitches. They loose sight of perception. I think a lot of their drive comes not from a desire to create a better world, but squewed and bitter because men have treated them badly or never given them the attention they think they deserve.

    Im probablly stepping on a lot of womens toes here. Now i like women. The ones who are nice and dont have a chip on their shoulder. I do agree there is a lot of work to be done for equal rights but hating men isn't the way to get things done.

    I also think, at least from my point of view in Australia its becomming increasingly more a womens world. Women seem to dominate in the sex department because they have 1000's of guys hitting on them and it beefs up their confidence. They get massive benefits for having children here and half the women i work with are sick twice a month to take care of their kids.

    My old boss who is an absolutely wonderful man had two kids. When his ex wife broke up with him she made up stories to tell the police so that he wouldn't get to see them any more. He ended up getting a raw deal in the custody battle and she gets a massive proportion of his pay. She now has a new boyfriend who is really rich, so at her house the kids have a massive tv, satellite tv, xbox 360 etc. When the kids go to my bosse's house they have nothing because he cant afford it.

    Now i know that last example is an Isolated case, but it proves the need for "perception" in these matters.

    First of all, I don't hate men. I love men, men are great. And just for romantic/sexual purposes. A lot of guys are my friends, and a lot of my heros are male. I have no problem with men.

    And I agree, if we want to bridge the gap we can't hate men, so I don't. However, I'm not so sure I'm..."nice..." Not saying I go around bashing people's faces in and screaming, I'm just not very friendly on a personal level half the time.

    And also, that case is horrible. I believe that's wrong, truly. I just want the world to see everyone as equal. Intellectually, politically, economically, socially. Don't make expectations or assumptions or stereotypes on what someone's gender is, that's just stupid. I really, personally, am fairly angry with a lot of modern feminists. They're mucking up the cause and driving people away with thoughts that we're all men-hating, butch tyrants out to burn down the world and make it ruled by women. We aren't.
    Roboticist: Someone who conceptualizes, designs, builds, programs and experiments with robots.

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    I want people to see me as a person, not just someone they could go to bed with. I want equal pay for equal work and I want to feel safe when I leave my house "unescorted". That's all I'm asking.
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