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Thread: Social inclusiveness - Delta or Fe?

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    Default Social inclusiveness - Delta or Fe?

    Being inclusive of others, welcoming strangers in a group, gravitating towards openness and social inclusion/equality/togetherness as opposed to forming closed off (private/small/protected/"selfish") groups and interactions.

    Is this a Delta quadra value, or an Fe quadra value (most effectively promoted by Fe EJs)?
    Last edited by Park; 10-30-2013 at 04:09 PM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    Could someone please move this to General Discussion?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Could someone please move this to General Discussion?
    done.

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    It depends what you're looking for. I think aristocrats and democrats are inclusive in different ways. And I think ideas about what groups are inclusive might very well depend on the observer.

    I think Democratic quadras tend to be inclusive but there may not be a lot of agreement within the group, also I think democratic inclusiveness is more tolerance than acceptance and is conditional.

    Aristocratic are clannish but they might provide more closeness and acceptance for individuals that share their values/are faminly, however inclusiveness is not offered to people that don't share some of these values.

    Aristocrats might find democratic form of inclusiveness to be a bit shallow and light while democratic types might find aristocrats to be cliquish.

    Many betas may rebel and form cliques out of a sense of lack of inclusion within a democratic sort of administrative inclusion to assert their individuality and personal agency, where as deltas may form these cliques to pursue some sort of moral agenda.

    In these cases individuals don't feel the existing system includes them although it does but only conditionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Being inclusive of others, welcoming strangers in a group, gravitating towards openness and social inclusion/equality/togetherness as opposed to forming closed off (private/small/protected/"selfish") groups and interactions.

    Is this a Delta quadra value, or an Fe quadra value (most effectively promoted by Fe EJs)?
    Just as @hkkmr brought up Democrat/Aristocrat, also there is Positivist/Negativist impact on how they appear inclusive, open, welcoming. Since Negativists are "socially and intellectually less trusting" they can "hold back" till they feel safe to join in, whether with an individual or with a group.

    Also, Merry/Serious. Merry has an advantage as far as welcoming and socializing because for the Merry: "'Getting to know someone' happens naturally, and they are well aware of the purpose(s) for which they are meeting. The proper emotional distance is easily established, adapted/regulated, and manipulated, and they easily decrease distance through their emotional 'brilliance'. "

    The Serious holding back in this way, or needed to establish contact through ritual" introduction or what have you, and can make them seem unfriendly when that's not it at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Being inclusive of others, welcoming strangers in a group, gravitating towards openness and social inclusion/equality/togetherness as opposed to forming closed off (private/small/protected/"selfish") groups and interactions.

    Is this a Delta quadra value, or an Fe quadra value (most effectively promoted by Fe EJs)?
    I think that for the more extraverted/ethical types, there might be a sense of kind of feeling the person out, to see what kind of person they are.

    For Delta in particular (though not exclusively Delta), I would say that there is not just the tendency to feel a person out, but also a focus perhaps in the back of the mind of who that new person might connect with, and over what that person might find connections on. Basically, kind of like where in the social/interest network this new person might fit.

    Oh, you're into music? Here's a couple of other people who are into music as well, X is a fan of Opera, Y is a dance major who works with musical artists on choreographing routines, and Z plays trumpet in different bands including a jazz band. I could introduce them to you if you'd like. They might know other people you might be more interested in and have things in common with. I'm not particularly interested in music myself, so I wouldn't be joining in myself. What else do you do?

    The introverts are probably more likely to listen in and add input as it comes up, while leaving the extroverts to do the greeting and talking.

    LSEs and EIIs, being yielding types, will probably think in terms of resource networks. (Like my EII mother is part of a forum that sends christmas presents to foster/poor children. So she'd likely be wondering how this person might fit into the network they have going on, based on the person's interests and skills.)

    IEEs and SLIs, being obstinate types, will probably think in terms of interest networks (as already described). With IEEs being the catalyst for connections, and the SLI deciding yay or nay on whether to personally/professionally/whateverly connect with this person or not.

    IEE has strong Fe and strong Fi. They will both have an influence on the IEE's thoughts. But the IEE's main focus would be helping the person make Fi connections.
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    Ethics isn't always about inclusion, types like EIE can be extremely exclusive and rejecting, often in a very aggressive fashion(Get the fuck out). Other types like EII may exclude passively, giving the appearance of inclusion but making the barrier to entry too high for most people. (GOOP with it's ludicrous price points for recommended products)

    Ethical types aren't simply good at social inclusion, but they're great at social ostracism as well. These are tools they skillfully wield to great effect.

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    Yeah, well, obviously if you don't fit into a particular 'network' it might be better to find yourself a different network.
    If there's nothing to connect on, or an unwillingness to find a connection, then why bother?
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    i'm kind of non-discriminatory in everyday interaction but generally dislike groups and prefer them when they are among people i know well; in that sense i prefer exclusiveness.

    the non-discriminatory aspect has a flipside in that it takes a lot for me to start giving a person preferential treatment; but on occasions when i do i also tend to quickly jump to the extreme.

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    can socionics be easily split off from instinct stacking here?

    i relate to what lab said.

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    i don't really know which i like.
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    Thanks bg.

    Jadae, come to Delta, baby. (How many times have I said this already...)
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Part of this has to do with the difference between E and I. I believe that introverts are more closed off and more likely to dedicate themselves to a close circle of friends than Extraverts who hold others at a positive distance or are more objective about other people's existence. When someone badgers an introvert, the introvert usually retreats and the negative space or charge is only further reinforced but introverts can ignore people they don't like, so it works out and they find their space in society.

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    I'd be surprised if a group of Deltas that I have never met before would actually initiate a conversation with me (if the situation doesn't require it).

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    ^Of course they would, Delta's talk with everyone, despite popular opinion. Just say "hi, how's it going"?
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    are there examples or more specifics to the OP?

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    ... I kinda think everybody is guilty of socially including people they like and socially excluding people that they dislike... don't think any one of us can say they are more like Jesus and would truly accept *everybody.*

    Even if you can accept people in a business sense it's not like other people still can't feel the sting in your heart you have for them lmao... though I think this is kinda awkward and we should probably not dwell on it. Some people just aren't going to get along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inguz View Post
    I'd be surprised if a group of Deltas that I have never met before would actually initiate a conversation with me (if the situation doesn't require it).
    It's more about accepting you inside a circle and openly sharing information before getting to know you than about initiating conversations.

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    are there examples or more specifics to the OP?
    I was on a sort of semi-professional trip, bonding and spending quality time with someone I like. A mutual acquaintance arrived later with a friend (profession call) and unintentionally invaded our private space by imposing his ideas about what would be good to do as a group in our spare time and constantly "entertaining" us with his jokes and stories, regardless of whether we want that or not. My friend (not exactly, but let's call him that for simplicity's sake) had no problem accepting this guy's initiative and delegating equal attention to everyone in the group, while I, on the other hand almost hated the fact I had to tag along and listen to stupid stories (meant to keep our spirits/moods up or whatever) and not being able to have more intimate discussions and less restrained interaction with my friend one-on-one, which is always far more satisfying than shallowly socializing on a larger scale. To make things worse, two other not-so-close acquaintances joined our group later (just like, for no reason at all) and contributed to making the rest of our stay as stifled and superficial as possible. Anyways, the act of "letting whoever barge in and impose their presence on a relation/interaction already developed or in progress" is what bugs me, personally.

    There have been other situations bringing up this issue, and I'll write another example if I can think of one, but the main theme behind it all is that there's group A that derives satisfaction in exploring relationship potential with individuals and find value in confined and intimate interactions, and there's group B who either don't care or put secondary importance to inter-personal bonding, focusing on social impact, influencing people, promoting image and/or status, or just being equally nice and accepting to everyone with a lesser or non-existent sense or need for discretion and intimacy. All things aside, the key point in all of this is how much one is accepting and inclusive of outsiders in their personal space and relationships, and whether this kind of inclusiveness is indicative of Fe as a valuing information element or to Te/Fi aristocracy. I have seen it being attributed to both, and while I know how I feel about it, I was wondering what others think.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    My group A vs B description sounds somewhat like sexual vs social enneagram instinct. Meh. I'm not very good at explaining these things.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    My problem is that I read this and think of too many possibilities. I mean for one it's possible that while you valued this opportunity to spend more one-on-one time with your friend, he perceived/experienced the situation differently and was looking for or valued different things in the situation. For example, if one of his interests was to meet new people or feel like he was "getting out more" or something during the trip, then his behavior would probably reflect that.

    I don't know if it's strongly related to different group styles or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    It's more about accepting you inside a circle and openly sharing information before getting to know you than about initiating conversations.
    Interesting. So two different groups of Deltas could treat each others as ghosts if they don't know each other or don't know anyone that knows them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post

    There have been other situations bringing up this issue, and I'll write another example if I can think of one, but the main theme behind it all is that there's group A that derives satisfaction in exploring relationship potential with individuals and find value in confined and intimate interactions, and there's group B who either don't care or put secondary importance to inter-personal bonding, focusing on social impact, influencing people, promoting image and/or status, or just being equally nice and accepting to everyone with a lesser or non-existent sense or need for discretion and intimacy.
    That sounds to me like Fi vs. Fe although I wouldn't say that Fe peeps don't find value in intimate interactions. They are just more likely to put them on the backburner for the benefit of the group.

    In this particular scenario, I would value the more intimate setting with a selected few in the spirit of bonding as individuals (Fi), personally and possibly professionally, and wouldn't feel as interested in inserting myself into a larger group context or determine/establish my position in the professional setting. However, if I had been in your place, I would have probably felt less uncomfortable with the changing group dynamics (since I am more comfortable with Fe); but, like you, wouldn't have valued them and would have felt I am missing out on individual bonding time. I have been in situations where such changes in group dynamics almost felt like a violation of my space, but in professional settings I can sort of go with the flow (even if it is slightly frustrating). So I think this is a delta reaction on your part, exacerbated by Fe PoLR, obviously.

    All things aside, the key point in all of this is how much one is accepting and inclusive of outsiders in their personal space and relationships, and whether this kind of inclusiveness is indicative of Fe as a valuing information element or to Te/Fi aristocracy. I have seen it being attributed to both, and while I know how I feel about it, I was wondering what others think.
    I think it is Fe, but I can see a gamma/delta type go out of his/her comfort zone if the professional setting calls for it. In my view, the Te/Fi aristocracy is built upon the individualized bonding you were seeking. The inclusion of outsiders over Fi-bonding, if this person is delta or gamma, might have been purely temporary and professionally motivated (sense of obligation, etc.).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inguz View Post
    Interesting. So two different groups of Deltas could treat each others as ghosts if they don't know each other or don't know anyone that knows them?
    Yes, I would say most definitely. And I at least would be more likely to get to know the other group through somehow bonding with one member rather than through two groups colliding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae16t View Post
    Individuals cease to exist, and the interplay between two begins. Its easy to get high off of two. And the weird thing is, sometimes I consider myself introverted, believe it or not. Typology is very confusing, imo, but I usually test as moderate (the shy extrovert, is what they call it).
    I can be extremely shy and awkward around strangers and people I don't know well. But when I don't have regular human interaction, I get depressed and my spirit sort of withers...I envy introverts for the ability to just withdraw into themselves and their little world. I can do that for barely a day...But then, in the spirit of this thread, Fi-valuing introverts would naturally be even more frustrated at a wasted opportunity to spend quality time with an individual they like because the situation is hijacked by a group...
    Last edited by Kim; 11-01-2013 at 06:28 AM. Reason: typo
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    Deltas = serious inclusiveness in the group. if you are accepted, you are in. you are then expected to follow the ethics of the group.
    Betas = joking, laughing inclusiveness (Fe). you have to be tested several times to be accepted but once you are in well you've gotten yourself into big trouble LOL .

    Now, the serious part, what hkkmr posted sums up what I see in practical observation too:

    " think Democratic quadras tend to be inclusive but there may not be a lot of agreement within the group, also I think democratic inclusiveness is more tolerance than acceptance and is conditional.

    Aristocratic are clannish but they might provide more closeness and acceptance for individuals that share their values/are faminly, however inclusiveness is not offered to people that don't share some of these values.

    Aristocrats might find democratic form of inclusiveness to be a bit shallow and light while democratic types might find aristocrats to be cliquish.

    Many betas may rebel and form cliques out of a sense of lack of inclusion within a democratic sort of administrative inclusion to assert their individuality and personal agency, where as deltas may form these cliques to pursue some sort of moral agenda. "

    I find Gamma groups inclusion to be a kind of tolerance until you become part of the group, but Gammas do not really form close groups, so you kind of become a person who is respected and who the Gammas will eventually gather to do something for a brief period of time. But there is a jugdment in Gammas, I sense this all the time in them, very judgemental perhaps because they don't get the Delta view. Alpha integration is more sincere, less judgemental, even non-judgemental, but do not expect close bonds (unvalued Fi); instead expect gathering to "have fun" more related to Fe. As in Beta groups, the Fe goal is very evident.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Yes, I would say most definitely. And I at least would be more likely to get to know the other group through somehow bonding with one member rather than through two groups colliding.
    Alright, so the need to be introduced by someone else actually is a very real thing? Anyway Gamma and Beta seems to be the opposite of you guys. Gammas introduce themselves to people on their own initiative and Betas actively invite others to participate in group activities. To me that is social inclusion.

    The way I perceive it, newcomers can actually invite themselves to become accepted in a Beta group. This is because Beta groups often come together around some kind of activity where participation is voluntary and gives outsiders an opportunity to both join in and to be accepted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    My problem is that I read this and think of too many possibilities. I mean for one it's possible that while you valued this opportunity to spend more one-on-one time with your friend, he perceived/experienced the situation differently and was looking for or valued different things in the situation. For example, if one of his interests was to meet new people or feel like he was "getting out more" or something during the trip, then his behavior would probably reflect that.

    I don't know if it's strongly related to different group styles or not.
    Yeah. I more or less understand his perspective situation-wise, partly because we talked about it. And even though talking about how I feel is as uncomfortable as it gets, I tend to have a counterphobic attitude towards being emotionally expressive with people I like and feel I can build trust with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inguz View Post
    Interesting. So two different groups of Deltas could treat each others as ghosts if they don't know each other or don't know anyone that knows them?
    I think they would be reserved and protective of information and stuff that's happening inside their respective group. They would be fair, honest and helpful in all other respects to everyone. However, inter-group communication would most likely tend to be guarded and businesslike, mostly as a sign of respect for everyone's privacy, autonomy, and personal space.

    Or I could be projecting and talking about two different groups of Parks. You never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae16t View Post
    Its really hard for me to believe in Socionics. The reason I use quotes a lot is to display the meaning of, so when I say "ENFj", I mean the meaning of but not the reality of. And the ideas of quadras are very easy to me, but I actually dislike the idea of them in practice, because they really begin this turf war animalistic nature in us. That is so dividing to me. Bleh :[
    It's not what it's supposed to be, but that's exactly what Socioncs boils down to - a belief system.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I think they would be reserved and protective of information and stuff that's happening inside their respective group. They would be fair, honest and helpful in all other respects to everyone. However, inter-group communication would most likely tend to be guarded and businesslike, mostly as a sign of respect for everyone's privacy, autonomy, and personal space.
    This description feels right to me.

    I think the initial "feeling out a person" can seem from an outsider's perspective to be "guarded and businesslike". Until some kind of mutual connection is found, and that gets felt out to see how deep the connection might go, etc. Learning what is safe to talk about or do, and what to avoid.

    Your story resonanted with some of my experiences.
    But I also have to admit that I might have a desire to invite someone to join a 2 person group if the 3rd person seems lonely or isolated. For example, before Richard came into my life, and while my daughter was quite young, my brother and I would eat Thanksgiving dinner at a restaurant. We would often see older people eating their Thanksgiving dinner by themselves while looking around at the other families. In those cases, we would invite one to join us, or ask if they would like some company. But as my daughter got older, and Richard was now with us, the group was already too large (4) to really discuss anything everyone might enjoy discussing or hearing. Once a group reaches 4, I withdraw, becoming socally introverted.

    In the story you described, I would likely have felt overwhelmed, even dizzy with all the talking and activity. In such cases I've tended to excuse myself and leave the group. Or, when Richard's there, we sit a bit off to ourselves and just listen in to other convers, and commenting just to each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    But when I don't have regular human interaction, I get depressed and my spirit sort of withers...
    And when I have regular human interaction, I get overwhelmed and my spirit sort of rebels against not being left alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I envy introverts for the ability to just withdraw into themselves and their little world.
    It isn't little.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    And when I have regular human interaction, I get overwhelmed and my spirit sort of rebels against not being left alone.
    This is only partly related, but just this morning I was thinking about pushy people. As much as I need human interaction, I hate it when people try to talk me into doing something or otherwise force interaction on me. So part of it might be a delta thing (*don't invade my space*), but obviously it is easier to handle for extroverts plus at times it is better than not having any human interaction at all.

    Within delta, under normal circumstances, these differing needs for interaction seem to be balanced out easily (in that there is a lot of emphasis on individual autonomy and separation does not threaten the Fi-bond once it is established because it does not need constant external confirmation). It just gets daunting when Fe-types and non-Fi Se types come into the picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
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    Today's sociology lesson: In-groups and out-groups taken from some old textbooks

    http://web.missouri.edu/~hartmanj/rs150/inoutgroup.html


    hehehe. Seriously though, that's all this is. You have people identifying with certain groups (delta, Fi, democrat, aristocrat, etc.) and distinguishing themselves on that basis as different and implying a cohesion that just doesn't exist. All people bind themselves to certain groups and separate themselves from others even if it is in a very loose way. I've even seen people on this forum change their typing and from that change their relations to other people.

    For example, someone starts typing themself as Fi and suddenly only they and other Fi types really value and understand intimacy. They start thinking that Fe types just don't get it in the same way, and refuse to see reality because they've created this distinction in their mind. They then create these bonds with other people in their Fi in-group and separate themselves further from the Fe out-group. It's based on something that isn't even true, yet becomes true in their minds.

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    I don't really know as I'm always part of mixed groups consisting of both Fi and Fe valuers.
    As for me, I always like everyone to be included, at least in a "physical" sense, that is everybody sitting around one table. Doesn't mean that one person is speaking and everybody has to listen to that one person. It's ok when it's loud and everybody just talks about whatever they want to talk about and you can switch between conversations so-to.speak. I'm used to that kind of group, cause family meetings are always like that. So, I enjoy it when meetings with my youth group or fellow students have a similar atmosphere.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    I don't really know as I'm always part of mixed groups consisting of both Fi and Fe valuers.
    As for me, I always like everyone to be included, at least in a "physical" sense, that is everybody sitting around one table. Doesn't mean that one person is speaking and everybody has to listen to that one person. It's ok when it's loud and everybody just talks about whatever they want to talk about and you can switch between conversations so-to.speak. I'm used to that kind of group, cause family meetings are always like that. So, I enjoy it when meetings with my youth group or fellow students have a similar atmosphere.
    This is the sort of social/group setting I really don't like. In a way it feels like being included in a way that makes you feel excluded if you don't like that sort of setting. It gets loud, which is tiring in and of itself and also makes it difficult to have any sort of conversation because you can't always hear what the other person is saying. It also makes me feel like I can only have shallow conversations because I don't feel comfortable talking about things I actually care about in front of a bunch of people (even if they're all people I could talk to individually). Mostly I just end up listening to the people next to me or looking out a window.

    A couple of years ago they rearranged the furniture in the lunchroom at work and instead of three smaller tables there was now one large table. The sound level went up (and it was already loud before) and there was just no way of actually relaxing during your break. After a while they added a few armchairs with small tables in the corners and I started using those instead. They also allowed me to put my feet up which was nice considering we were walking or standing most of the workday and if anyone asked why I didn't sit at the main table I could just use "resting my feet" as an excuse. People got used to it pretty quickly and soon a few others started using those chairs as well. Despite still being in the same room it was much easier to relax a little bit when not trapped in the middle of all the noise but off to the side a bit, feeling at least a little bit more secluded. My lunchbreaks were much better after that though I still wished people wouldn't be quite as loud (but I do understand some people get energy from that sort of thing instead of being drained by it like I am) and if the morning had been especially stressful I'd even sometimes eat in a different room just to have some silence and because people were already used to me sitting off by myself a bit no one gave me any grief about it when it happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zola View Post
    This is the sort of social/group setting I really don't like. In a way it feels like being included in a way that makes you feel excluded if you don't like that sort of setting. It gets loud, which is tiring in and of itself and also makes it difficult to have any sort of conversation because you can't always hear what the other person is saying. It also makes me feel like I can only have shallow conversations because I don't feel comfortable talking about things I actually care about in front of a bunch of people (even if they're all people I could talk to individually). Mostly I just end up listening to the people next to me or looking out a window.

    A couple of years ago they rearranged the furniture in the lunchroom at work and instead of three smaller tables there was now one large table. The sound level went up (and it was already loud before) and there was just no way of actually relaxing during your break. After a while they added a few armchairs with small tables in the corners and I started using those instead. They also allowed me to put my feet up which was nice considering we were walking or standing most of the workday and if anyone asked why I didn't sit at the main table I could just use "resting my feet" as an excuse. People got used to it pretty quickly and soon a few others started using those chairs as well. Despite still being in the same room it was much easier to relax a little bit when not trapped in the middle of all the noise but off to the side a bit, feeling at least a little bit more secluded. My lunchbreaks were much better after that though I still wished people wouldn't be quite as loud (but I do understand some people get energy from that sort of thing instead of being drained by it like I am) and if the morning had been especially stressful I'd even sometimes eat in a different room just to have some silence and because people were already used to me sitting off by myself a bit no one gave me any grief about it when it happened.
    It doesn't need to get too loud. In case of my family it gets loud, because my grandma always gets very agitated over some topics. I know some people can't stand that kind of setting. My father for example always feels excluded when we meet with the whole family, because he is not interested in the topics they are talking about, he also cannot talk as fast and loud as most of my family members and demands that you listen to him. The ex-wife of my uncle was also similar. She didn't like it when our discussions turned to loud and when she was talking she wanted everybody to listen to her (she was a teacher). My grandma actually admired her enough, so that whenever my "ex-aunt" was talking she would shush everybody else. I couldn't stand those long monologues of my ex-aunt, desperate to make comments on what she said and interrupt her, which used to be always allowed. But if I did it she would glare at me and feel offended and give me that look a teacher gives a student who's making noise in class.

    I actually really like my family as a group: My two uncles - both more cerebral, calm, from time to time very funny. My older uncle is the master of telling dirty jokes. Then my mother who I see as the voice of wisdom and reason. My grandma who is always agitated about something, may it be the local news, politics, the weather, who has died and who is sick, why some people are unable to keep their house clean, constantly reminds us of the fact that there is still plenty of food left on the table that should be eaten and at the same time already wants to start cleaning the dishes ("Sit down and relax." is something she's then constantly told by the rest of the family). My father who is always tired and exhausted and desperately wants to go home to lie down on the sofa or hide in his cellar room to work on his self-made circuit boards. My older aunt who has the best way of laughing I have ever heard. My uncle's girlfriend whose mood depends on the ranking of her favorite soccer team. And me whose job it is to make ridiculous comments. xD
    Last edited by kadda1212; 11-04-2013 at 09:14 AM.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    It doesn't need to get too loud. In case of my family it gets loud, because my grandma always gets very agitated over some topics. I know some people can't stand that kind of setting. My father for example always feels excluded when we meet with the whole family, because he is not interested in the topics they are talking about, he also cannot talk as fast and loud as most of my family members and demands that you listen to him. The ex-wife of my uncle was also similar. She didn't like it when our discussions turned to loud and when she was talking she wanted everybody to listen to her (she was a teacher). My grandma actually admired her enough, so that whenever my "ex-aunt" was talking she would shush everybody else. I couldn't stand those long monologues of my ex-aunt, desperate to make comments on what she said and interrupt her, which used to be always allowed. But if I did it she would glare at me and feel offended and give me that look a teacher gives a student who's making noise in class.

    I actually really like my family as a group: My two uncles - both more cerebral, calm, from time to time very funny. My older uncle is the master of telling dirty jokes. Then my mother who I see as the voice of wisdom and reason. My grandma who is always agitated about something, may it be the local news, politics, the weather, who has died and who is sick, why some people are unable to keep their house clean, constantly reminds us of the fact that there is still plenty of food left on the table that should be eaten and at the same time already wants to start cleaning the dishes ("Sit down and relax." is something she's then constantly told by the rest of the family). My father who is always tired and exhausted and desperately wants to go home to lie down on the sofa or hide in his cellar room to work on his self-made circuit boards. My older aunt who has the best way of laughing I have ever heard. My uncle's girlfriend whose mood depends on the ranking of her favorite soccer team. And me whose job it is to make ridiculous comments. xD
    I think it usually feels louder than it actually is when there's more than one conversation going on at a time in a small area because there's extra sound to block out, but I do think there's a tendency for people to raise their voices a bit whenever there's a lot going on to be heard. If your ex-aunt was the sort of person who needed more time to think things through before speaking I can understand being annoyed at being interrupted and losing her train of thought and her role as a teacher probably increased her tendency towards monologues if that was her normal teaching style. No one wants to be made to feel like a "misbehaving student" though so definitely understand how that would be an uncomfortable situation.

    Really like your description of your family group and the roles of the various members. (I'd probably be most like your father in that situation, minus the circuit boards. =P)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zola View Post
    I think it usually feels louder than it actually is when there's more than one conversation going on at a time in a small area because there's extra sound to block out, but I do think there's a tendency for people to raise their voices a bit whenever there's a lot going on to be heard. If your ex-aunt was the sort of person who needed more time to think things through before speaking I can understand being annoyed at being interrupted and losing her train of thought and her role as a teacher probably increased her tendency towards monologues if that was her normal teaching style. No one wants to be made to feel like a "misbehaving student" though so definitely understand how that would be an uncomfortable situation.

    Really like your description of your family group and the roles of the various members. (I'd probably be most like your father in that situation, minus the circuit boards. =P)

    In case of my ex-aunt, I think she didn't get frustrated because her train of thought had been interrupted, it was rather that she demanded full and undivided attention. Otherwise she would have felt unloved, I suppose. She demanded that people - especially my uncle - sacrificed a lot of their time for her. She thought it was important that partners share common interests and thus she desperately tried to make my uncle a fan of the fine arts, went to galleries with him and wanted to discuss the paintings.
    In the end they kind of drifted apart. But somehow my uncle usually falls for demanding and kind of dominant women. But at some point he gets extremely exhausted and depressed. Though I don't know their types, I can say my ex-aunt was definitely my uncle's conflictor. Their marriage was doomed to fail.

    By the way, do you know what your type is? Kind of interested now, because you said you could relate to my father in that kind of group constellation... :/
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    In case of my ex-aunt, I think she didn't get frustrated because her train of thought had been interrupted, it was rather that she demanded full and undivided attention. Otherwise she would have felt unloved, I suppose. She demanded that people - especially my uncle - sacrificed a lot of their time for her. She thought it was important that partners share common interests and thus she desperately tried to make my uncle a fan of the fine arts, went to galleries with him and wanted to discuss the paintings.
    In the end they kind of drifted apart. But somehow my uncle usually falls for demanding and kind of dominant women. But at some point he gets extremely exhausted and depressed. Though I don't know their types, I can say my ex-aunt was definitely my uncle's conflictor. Their marriage was doomed to fail.

    By the way, do you know what your type is? Kind of interested now, because you said you could relate to my father in that kind of group constellation... :/
    Ah, that's something that didn't occur at all but I've seen it happen. Sounds like they weren't a great match for each other no matter their types.

    I have some ideas but I'm far from certain, I'll pm you.

    Edit: I think part of it is being sensitive to stimuli which may not be type-related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zola View Post
    This is the sort of social/group setting I really don't like. In a way it feels like being included in a way that makes you feel excluded if you don't like that sort of setting. It gets loud, which is tiring in and of itself and also makes it difficult to have any sort of conversation because you can't always hear what the other person is saying. It also makes me feel like I can only have shallow conversations because I don't feel comfortable talking about things I actually care about in front of a bunch of people (even if they're all people I could talk to individually). Mostly I just end up listening to the people next to me or looking out a window.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zola View Post
    A couple of years ago they rearranged the furniture in the lunchroom at work and instead of three smaller tables there was now one large table. The sound level went up (and it was already loud before) and there was just no way of actually relaxing during your break. After a while they added a few armchairs with small tables in the corners and I started using those instead. They also allowed me to put my feet up which was nice considering we were walking or standing most of the workday and if anyone asked why I didn't sit at the main table I could just use "resting my feet" as an excuse. People got used to it pretty quickly and soon a few others started using those chairs as well. Despite still being in the same room it was much easier to relax a little bit when not trapped in the middle of all the noise but off to the side a bit, feeling at least a little bit more secluded. My lunchbreaks were much better after that though I still wished people wouldn't be quite as loud (but I do understand some people get energy from that sort of thing instead of being drained by it like I am) and if the morning had been especially stressful I'd even sometimes eat in a different room just to have some silence and because people were already used to me sitting off by myself a bit no one gave me any grief about it when it happened.
    Sounds like something I would do.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    In case of my ex-aunt, I think she didn't get frustrated because her train of thought had been interrupted, it was rather that she demanded full and undivided attention. Otherwise she would have felt unloved, I suppose. She demanded that people - especially my uncle - sacrificed a lot of their time for her. She thought it was important that partners share common interests and thus she desperately tried to make my uncle a fan of the fine arts, went to galleries with him and wanted to discuss the paintings.
    In the end they kind of drifted apart. But somehow my uncle usually falls for demanding and kind of dominant women. But at some point he gets extremely exhausted and depressed. Though I don't know their types, I can say my ex-aunt was definitely my uncle's conflictor. Their marriage was doomed to fail.
    My speculative guess would be IEI for uncle and LIE (or ESE) for ex-aunt.

    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    By the way, do you know what your type is? Kind of interested now, because you said you could relate to my father in that kind of group constellation... :/
    The general feeling I get from Zola's posts is Si/Ne intratim.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    My speculative guess would be IEI for uncle and LIE (or ESE) for ex-aunt.
    That would make my uncle the same type as me. Could be. I get along very well with him. My grandma is the ESE and for whatever reason she was completely in love with my ex-aunt. She admired her. And she doesn't want to hang down the wedding photos, which I consider to be somewhat embarrassing. One time my uncle's new girlfriend kept staring at these photos and seemed to be kind of uncomfortable. But my grandma cannot abolish memories. Every wall in her house is covered with family photos.
    Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...

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