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    Default Expat

    I say estj. commence argument

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    I could somehow see Expat as INTp, but only because he's slightly more phlegmatic than any of the ENTjs I know.

    I don't see the sensory: it's not in his look, his behavior; I really don't see any reason to be convinced of this.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I can see that. I've not once seen him be delusional about reality and then rationalizing his delusions with "facts". Something I find common for ENTj-s to display.

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    @gill: that expat's rationality and general sense of TJitude could be questioned is, in my opinion, absurd. his fidelity, conscientiousness, and general sense of honorableness all scream it. i do agree he is unusually taciturn however

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    Creepy-pokeball

    Default Re: Expat

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    commence argument
    No

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    @gill: that expat's rationality and general sense of TJitude could be questioned is, in my opinion, absurd. his fidelity, conscientiousness, and general sense of honorableness all scream it. i do agree he is unusually taciturn however
    I think his rationality could be called into question as easily as it could be guaranteed by anyone but himself. I, for one, stand by Expat in his typing of himself as ENTj; however, were I called upon to question his type, INTp is the next greatest possibility than I can imagine (disregarding VI, of course), mostly because I observe his use of the fuctions and as being more obvious than his rationality.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I was pretty certain that FDG was ESTj and spoke to Expat about it. He assured me that FDG is indeed his identical, but would get back to me about it after meeting him. Upon meeting him, Expat said that FDG is without a doubt his identical. Now whether they're both ENTj or ESTj or ESFp or ESTp or ENTp or... you get my point... I'll state that I would tend to agree with Expat's typings of them, but... Expat does seem a bit calm for an ENTj. I assumed it was because he had learned how to be calm in the process of maturing through his adult years. Perhaps this maturity is quadra related?

    Expat, what were you like in your twenties? Do you think you've mellowed out since then? Do you think you were more dynamic in the past?
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    An NiFe on this forum once referred TeNi as "noble". At that point it seemed that he had quite a bit of respect for the TeNi people he's known. Unfortunately, quite a few of the TeNi on this forum have thrown his perceptions of TeNi for a loop.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    The great interest in biographies and learning even detailed information of the leaders from the past is perhaps a bit more ESTj than ENTj (?) but other than that I don't so far see a case for other than Gamma - ENTj. And he seems very different from the ESTjs who have visited the forum. Even the amount of interest in socionics he shows is more ENTj than ESTj. I have a hard time seeing any ESTjs I know to get seriously interested in spending lots of free time with a hobby like this.

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    Its funny actually i pm'ed him the other day and commented on his interest in historical figures etc. Its not very much like my ENTj friend but people can be very different.

    Expat knows a lot about Socionics so if he thinks hes an ENTj it wouldn't be my place to argue
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    @pedro: what's your justification for calling INTJs "rational" when it seems like there are INTJs, even on this forum (including you, dio, and hugo), who are perhaps the most irrational people?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I was pretty certain that FDG was ESTj and spoke to Expat about it. He assured me that FDG is indeed his identical, but would get back to me about it after meeting him. Upon meeting him, Expat said that FDG is without a doubt his identical. Now whether they're both ENTj or ESTj or ESFp or ESTp or ENTp or... you get my point... I'll state that I would tend to agree with Expat's typings of them, but... Expat does seem a bit calm for an ENTj. I assumed it was because he had learned how to be calm in the process of maturing through his adult years. Perhaps this maturity is quadra related?

    Expat, what were you like in your twenties? Do you think you've mellowed out since then? Do you think you were more dynamic in the past?
    Expat is unusually mature in that he had to grow up with a conflictor for a parent. He's also older than 20. However i feel that people show maturity when allowing for viewpoints even drastically different than their own.

    I think FDG and Expat are both ENTj, logical sub. I think FDG is more like an ESTj than Expat is like an ESTj though. btw !!! on them meeting and being sure of their identicalness...

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    Its funny actually i pm'ed him the other day and commented on his interest in historical figures etc. Its not very much like my ENTj friend but people can be very different.
    once again i find your observations astute. this is precisely the sort of thing i am referring to. it also resolves the ah, non- rejection out of hand vibe that i get from, say, ashton (it takes so long to realign him)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Expat is unusually mature blah blah...
    Expat is unusually british which I think is part of what is clouding the issue.

    lastly in regards to openness it seems that the "best" esxjs display sort of an childlike enthusiasm for oddity. i mentioned once to expat how he did not seem entj and how i thought he might be intj (partly with something similar to this in mind) however, i could not resolve this with his... JePi (?). the sort of everything can be made regular, cyclical, and even in time thing. His regularity, a sort of constancy. This seemed like an interesting compromise so I thought I'd "throw it out there."

    .: edited for gayness:.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Expat is unusually mature blah blah...
    Expat is unusually british which I think is part of what is clouding the issue.
    well he is unusually something. and i think part of what sets him apart is the background.

    :edited by moderator:

    fixed your post. couldn't stand the sight of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    @pedro: what's your justification for calling INTJs "rational" when it seems like there are INTJs, even on this forum (including you, dio, and hugo), who are perhaps the most irrational people?
    as i have said all along you have no concept of us. it amazes me as isfps pick up on the internal tension so easily.


    Yes, and it amazes me how impossible you are to talk to.

    OK, I'm the ignorant doofus. But I personally believe that you have just as little knowledge of what goes on inside my head. This may be hard for you to admit, however it's true, because you often say things that aren't true for people like me. Now, because I think this is an important part of any "typology", I often try and ask people to tell me how they think. But you always avoid it. How am I ever to know what's truely similar and different from my thought processes and people like yours if you can't answer even the simplest questions? It's gotten to the point of almost being rude. No, not almost, is.

    All I asked was what was your explaination of your "rationality".

    BTW, you have no idea of other people's "tensions", either. You don't pick up on everything yourself.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    .

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    @rocky: apologies. you are correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    I can see that. I've not once seen him be delusional about reality and then rationalizing his delusions with "facts". Something I find common for ENTj-s to display.
    If anything, facts are what attaches us to reality, not what makes us depart from it
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I like Expat. He has a lot of patience.
    asd

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    First, thank you all (especially Pedro, MsK, Diana and Heath) for the generous comments on my character; if only some ex and prospective girlfriends, employers, and clients would listen to you! <3

    I think ESTj is a plausible alternative for a type from the point of view of online interactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    @gill: that expat's rationality and general sense of TJitude could be questioned is, in my opinion, absurd. his fidelity, conscientiousness, and general sense of honorableness all scream it. i do agree he is unusually taciturn however
    Thank you. I think that what you're seeing is the axis which makes sense.

    As for being taciturn -- I am a Narrator in the Socionics sense. If you mean that I'm not as outspoken as other ENTjs, I think it has to do more with age and perhaps with an exaggerated concern with the role function.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    I can see that. I've not once seen him be delusional about reality and then rationalizing his delusions with "facts". Something I find common for ENTj-s to display.
    That would be something interesting to explore, if you'd care to, not in my case but regarding what you mean in the case of ENTjs. How are they delusional about reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    I think his rationality could be called into question as easily as it could be guaranteed by anyone but himself. I, for one, stand by Expat in his typing of himself as ENTj; however, were I called upon to question his type, INTp is the next greatest possibility than I can imagine (disregarding VI, of course), mostly because I observe his use of the fuctions and as being more obvious than his rationality.
    In terms of function use, I would also say that INTp would be the second closest. However, although I'm not a 100% J person, my temperament is EJ rather than IP. Any doubts I might have with regard to this have faded as I have had interaction with, and understanding for, the INTp behavior.

    So from the point of temperament, ESTj would make more sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Expat, what were you like in your twenties? Do you think you've mellowed out since then? Do you think you were more dynamic in the past?
    That depends on your definition of "dynamic". I was and remain very dynamic in the Jack London sense, in terms of restlessness regarding location and career. You seem to mean "quiet" in the sense of not being as outspoken as Ashton or (less obviously so) FDG.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Expat is unusually mature in that he had to grow up with a conflictor for a parent. He's also older than 20. However i feel that people show maturity when allowing for viewpoints even drastically different than their own.

    I think FDG and Expat are both ENTj, logical sub. I think FDG is more like an ESTj than Expat is like an ESTj though. btw !!! on them meeting and being sure of their identicalness...
    If my being "quiet" is of any relevance, I would guess MsK is right. If I went into outspoken mode I drove my ISFp father into blind rage or "you're such a horribe person" sulking.

    As confirmed from my meeting with with FDG, and other ENTjs, a good description for ENTjs IRL - regardless of the online impression - is "talkative, active nerds trying to do the right thing".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Expat is unusually mature blah blah...
    Expat is unusually british which I think is part of what is clouding the issue.
    well he is unusually something. and i think part of what sets him apart is the background.
    I'm not really British, but my personality does seem to be a mixture of being German and British, which makes sense because I've lived in each country 5 years and still keep strong bounds with them. My main "home" is still the UK, even if I'm now working in Belgium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    lastly in regards to openness it seems that the "best" esxjs display sort of an childlike enthusiasm for oddity. i mentioned once to expat how he did not seem entj and how i thought he might be intj (partly with something similar to this in mind) however, i could not resolve this with his... JePi (?). the sort of everything can be made regular, cyclical, and even in time thing. His regularity, a sort of constancy. This seemed like an interesting compromise so I thought I'd "throw it out there."
    I'm not sure about this. I think you may be giving too much weight to some observations.

    General remarks -- ESTj is not a bad suggestion: I do have the - rational axis, and I get along with Delta (well obviously given those functions). I count several INFjs among my closest friends, and for friendships - at least with guys - perhaps it works better than with ISFjs, but in romantic relationships INFj doesn't seem to work. In other relationships it gets (as it would be expected) ambiguous. And I'm also a Victim and at a loss when dealing with Infantile behavior.

    But the main problem with ESTj is the obvious one: no one who knows me would think that is my creative function rather than PoLR, unless all the available functional descriptions of ENTjs and ESTjs are wrong.

    So I think that ENTj logical subtype is what fits best; I don't know if that accounts - if anything does - for the + suff that Pedro noticed.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    The great interest in biographies and learning even detailed information of the leaders from the past is perhaps a bit more ESTj than ENTj (?) but other than that I don't so far see a case for other than Gamma - ENTj. And he seems very different from the ESTjs who have visited the forum. Even the amount of interest in socionics he shows is more ENTj than ESTj. I have a hard time seeing any ESTjs I know to get seriously interested in spending lots of free time with a hobby like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger
    Its funny actually i pm'ed him the other day and commented on his interest in historical figures etc. Its not very much like my ENTj friend but people can be very different.
    A comment on this -- I've always been interested in history. While my ENTp brother has tons of books on science-fiction and Tolkien, I have tons of books on history (and politics and economics). vs perhaps?

    Reading history, even before thinking about socionics, I was often amazed at how some historical figures could act in ways totally mistifying for me, and how I could identify closely with others. Socionics has helped me to understand those figures better, and therefore history.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    If anything, facts are what attaches us to reality, not what makes us depart from it
    Exactly. In these instances facts become means to support a preconceived image, preconceived purpose, preconceived something. The objectivity gets lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    I can see that. I've not once seen him be delusional about reality and then rationalizing his delusions with "facts". Something I find common for ENTj-s to display.
    That would be something interesting to explore, if you'd care to, not in my case but regarding what you mean in the case of ENTjs. How are they delusional about reality?
    Not delusional as much as loosing sight of reality. I have seen this happen at least once in every ENTj I've seen (And Ni types). They might recognize it or they might not. It depends on their maturity.
    It's different from loosing sight of reality by other means (Like Fi or Ti) because I can only notice the Ni style because I do it myself very often (To often ) and when somebody else does the exact same thing it's hard to miss.
    But I don't know, I could be projecting, and doing the exact thing I'm describing. Or I could've missed it, or you could be mature and learned how to recognize such things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamicism
    I know exactly what you're talking about, snegledmaca (Re: the Ni going haywire and losing sight of reality thing).
    Can you spot it too? Is tat what makes ENTj go ballistic with INFp-s, that they do it, nonchalantly and have no intention of changing, and even worse they don't notice it, but rather completely view it as true, as reality so all of your efforts to correct it end up being in vain?

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    My problem with INFps is that my ends up PoLR slapping them. I've had this happen on multiple occasions and in this sense it's the INFp that loses sight of reality. Could you give a concrete example of an ENTj losing sight of reality?
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Expat is unusually mature in that he had to grow up with a conflictor for a parent. He's also older than 20. However i feel that people show maturity when allowing for viewpoints even drastically different than their own.

    I think FDG and Expat are both ENTj, logical sub. I think FDG is more like an ESTj than Expat is like an ESTj though. btw !!! on them meeting and being sure of their identicalness...
    If my being "quiet" is of any relevance, I would guess MsK is right. If I went into outspoken mode I drove my ISFp father into blind rage or "you're such a horribe person" sulking.

    As confirmed from my meeting with with FDG, and other ENTjs, a good description for ENTjs IRL - regardless of the online impression - is "talkative, active nerds trying to do the right thing".
    Now this is a fascinating thought, and could explain a lot about myself since I also had a conflictor parent - my mom is an ISFp. When I was a kid she would constantly emphasize manners, being polite, considerate, and not doing anything to upset or be disrespectful of anything or anyone. Not bad lessons to learn IMHO, but I think it did cause an exaggerated role function in me as Expat described above this quote. In fact my Fe can get so strong that I've mistaken it for my primary function at times, but Te is what I really am, not Fe. I also really admire ENFj's and "wish I could be like them" in a sense.

    I often have things to say that I know a lot of people aren't going to like, so I tend to stay pretty quiet so as to not upset people. At least on forums, I used to be a lot more outspoken but I've stopped posting at a lot of different places because I know that I'm just not going to be able to get my message across without getting a mob after me. If I say and explain things the way I want to, I also end up falling into the "yeah, well you're arrogant" trap. I would rather just not bother these days, and leave people like this alone. Even if you win the argument, you still lose in a sense. An ENFj can influence an angry mob of upset ISTjs much better than an ENTj ever will. The few ENFj's I've had on my automotive forums have been a godsend.

    http://socion.info/cgi-bin/index.cgi?loc=desc&type=9

    Fe: The third function of the ENTj is Fe, by which subjective feeling substantiates itself through various ethical processes. Since the ENTj type thrives in a world of logical and non-ethical and objective principles, it may be rendered difficult for this type to collect and comprehend the multiple feelings, modes and trends of the emotions of others and to react to those emotions. In result of this inability, expected behaviors should include a lack of politeness and consideration towards others, rude behaviors with bad manners or extremly well mannered, lack of enthusiasm and interest in whatever others may find emotionally satisfying, lack of emotional control with sudden unexpected outburst or totally devoid of emotion, appearing emotionally distant to others or unintentionally discouraging the emotional approaches of others.
    So maybe I'm more on the quiet and polite side for an ENTj not because I don't have anything to say, but rather because I fear upsetting people with my stronger nanny Fe role function. Indeed, there is another thread right now somewhere out in cyberspace that is practically begging me to rip it all to shreds, and yes it would upset a lot of people. They're wondering why something "sucks" and why something has gone "downhill". Believe me, I have some choice words, but I think I just don't want to bother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Thank you. I think that what you're seeing is the axis which makes sense.
    You are very welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    But the main problem with ESTj is the obvious one: no one who knows me would think that is my creative function rather than PoLR, unless all the available functional descriptions of ENTjs and ESTjs are wrong.
    Alright, I'll drop it then.

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    I do believe that Expat is ENTj, but I don't believe that being shy/quiet has that much to do with Fe-role. I can identify with being very shy/quiet when I first meet people, but when I have known someone for a longer time, it's not worth it anymore. There is no point in being a shy person around someone you have known for a year. That would be a waste of time - you spend all that time with someone and you can't even talk about the topics you care about.

    I believe it's more about the age and wisdom. Every other time I actually say what's on my mind, I piss someone off, so I'm learning more and more to be quiet. In about 20 years (if I remember Expat's age correctly), I will have mastered the skill of shutting up. 20 years is sufficient to learn a skill and to practice it.
    Expat, I don't mean that learning that is a piece of cake and anyone can do that. Learning to be a "better" person is always a struggle and it's always worth praise. Cheers.


    StevENTj, I can relate to much of what you said. Other people in this forum are well aware of my skill to always say the most "wrong" thing. Lately I've been posting less.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    @rocky: apologies. you are correct.


    ... I just wanted someone to answer my question...
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Thank you. I think that what you're seeing is the axis which makes sense.
    You are very welcome.
    You don't disagree? Don't IxTJs see themselves the same way though?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  31. #31
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    @Rocky

    I referred only to Pedro's comment here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    his fidelity, conscientiousness, and general sense of honorableness
    I'm not sure that this necessarily means I agree with his definition of rationality, and I think that IXTjs could also see themselves in that way.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  32. #32
    Dioklecian's Avatar
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    Expat do you have any pictures availble on the net?

    cheers
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

  33. #33
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    I do not post pictures on the open forum, but I will PM you a link.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  34. #34
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    According to Dio's VI, I am ENTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  35. #35
    Dioklecian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    According to Dio's VI, I am ENTj.
    Yup. He looks similar to two people that I know, and recently I decided that they were ENTJs (before typing Expat), although they seem to be of different subtype from smilingeyes and a relative of mine.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    You don't disagree? Don't IxTJs see themselves the same way though?
    I was merely expressing to expat that I noted his gratitude (?) towards my comments. I see how you are connecting the thoughts together but they were unconnected in my mind. I do agree with you however that ixtjs are not the same and do not view themselves as the same in their TJitude. It is like how a dalmation is a dog but a dog is not necessarily a dalmation. Furthering this analogy I made a comment similar to "Look a dog! You can tell it is a dalmation by its spots!" And you came up and said, "Wait, don't spotted sharptails have spots as well?" (ie is this something in the nature of TJness) And I say, "Well, yes but they're really unrelated. You have just never seen a dog before or you'd understand." And then you say, "Wait a cheetah cast spots! So is a dalmation some sort of cheetah?" And I say, "ARGH!!!!! Stop with the spots! It has nothing to do with the spots!" And you say, "Alright chill out man." And I say, "Ok." And we go out for a beer, shoot some pool, and have a grand old time. Then on the way home I drunkenly run over a cheetah having sex with a dalmation and I'm like "OMG!" I run out to try and save them but, only the mother survives. She is hooked up to machines barely staying alive and I spend all my money to sustain her. One day the as delivery time approaches the mother gives birth to a cow and I finally come to realize how spots beget spots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Then on the way home I drunkenly run over a cheetah having sex with a dalmation and I'm like "OMG!"




    ......





    OK, I get it. Well, I got it, until this...

    One day the as delivery time approaches the mother gives birth to a cow and I finally come to realize how spots beget spots.
    ... then you lost me.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Yeah, I had a better version of this in my head originally but I forgot it and this replaced it. The energy sort of tapered off. This was originally a much better post also.

    I am not sure what I meant with the cow really. Perhaps it had something to do with the humor of random spotted animals being related to one another or perhaps it had to do with how sometimes if I let all the categories fall away I see that you are more correct than I originally believed. I am not sure, honestly. This may be a ploy to flatter you as I honestly regret mistreating you and being unfair. :/ Now I am copying sycophant in a manner which is intended to translate the thought into thought vernacular but all I am thinking is "toaster oven."

  39. #39
    Creepy-pokeball

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I do not post pictures on the open forum, but I will PM you a link.
    Very smart :wink:

  40. #40
    six turnin', four burnin' stevENTj's Avatar
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    @ Kristiina

    Well let's see. The primarly influencers in my life have been my parents. My mom is an ISFp who was constantly preaching about manners and being respectful and not doing anything to upset or offend anyone. My dad is an ENTj (conflicting, scary I know), who was obviously on the mature side, and always seemed very anti-conflict with respect to anything. It made him seem INTj-ish, but that could be the ISFp influence. My teachers growing up always said I was very mature well beyond my years, and I've never had any sort of behavioral issues.

    Perhaps that all makes for a kinder & gentler ENTj?
    Te-INTp/ILI, my wife: Fi-ISFj/ESI, with laser beam death rays for ESTp/SLEs, lol
    16 years of bliss in an Activity relationship

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