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Thread: Boundaries and Power

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    Default Boundaries and Power

    In my observation, people who want their boundaries observed just want to be in power and they don't really know how to relate to someone in their space except for on their terms which translates into narcissism....Eliza, I think you were right.

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    Ugh. No.

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    That is not a very logical correlation. People who have boundaries, are typically healthy individuals with a strong sense of self. Those with NPD, are completely unaware of their boundaries and other's boundaries because narcissists see other people as extensions of themselves. I have no idea where you are getting your information, but it can't be from any book or article on narcissism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlacentaCake View Post
    That is not a very logical correlation. People who have boundaries, are typically healthy individuals with a strong sense of self. Those with NPD, are completely unaware of their boundaries and other's boundaries because narcissists see other people as extensions of themselves. I have no idea where you are getting your information, but it can't be from any book or article on narcissism.
    Oh yeah... I do think that narcissists see others as extensions of themselves hence they create or strive to create an environment which encloses or shuts out others as they see safe and fitting for them hence returning to the concept that it's about boundaries and power.
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-12-2013 at 07:31 PM.

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    no.

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    nope.

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    Maritsa is close, actually. Narcissists can and will use boundaries as a manipulation tactic. It’s just not as cut and dry as she is stating.

    I think you're not doing a very good job of getting your point across @Maritsa
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post

    I think you're not doing a very good job of getting your point across @Maritsa
    Se Polr I never am Chris but thank you

    I never can see what things people in general value as the best and proper form of expression that allows them to see what i mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlacentaCake View Post
    . People who have boundaries, are typically healthy individuals with a strong sense of self.
    Yea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Yea.
    Not exactly. People who have healthy boundaries, can be healthy, since we're trying to state the obvious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    In my observation, people who want their boundaries observed just want to be in power and they don't really know how to relate to someone in their space except for on their terms which translates into narcissism....Eliza, I think you were right.
    Are you implying that you dont have boundaries? I really doubt that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Are you implying that you dont have boundaries? I really doubt that.
    boundaries observed by others in an imposing way.

    I have boundaries...healthy ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    boundaries observed by others in an imposing way.

    I have boundaries...healthy ones.
    Different people need different boundaries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Different people need different boundaries.
    really? how long did it take you to reach that conclusion? again: this

    "Narcissists can and will use boundaries as a manipulation tactic. It’s just not as cut and dry as she is stating. "
    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    really? how long did it take you to reach that conclusion? again: this

    "Narcissists can and will use boundaries as a manipulation tactic. It’s just not as cut and dry as she is stating. "
    Chris
    Without reference to what these boundaries actually might be, this conversation really is pretty meaningless. When I ask my partner to please not scream in my face I am narcissist? Or is that a healthy boundary? If so, what are unhealthy boundaries?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Without reference to what these boundaries actually might be, this conversation really is pretty meaningless. When I ask my partner to please not scream in my face I am narcissist? Or is that a healthy boundary? If so, what are unhealthy boundaries?
    Stating an obvious healthy boundary and an oversimplification of the topic using one experience out of many that are possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Without reference to what these boundaries actually might be, this conversation really is pretty meaningless. When I ask my partner to please not scream in my face I am narcissist? Or is that a healthy boundary? If so, what are unhealthy boundaries?
    details are not required. This is about the general picture of what is going on. If your impression of someone is static, than any number of factors will not change how you see them and their activity and you can apply a reasoning or rational for what they do, hence this is a general look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Oh yeah... I do think that narcissists see others as extensions of themselves hence they create or strive to create an environment which encloses or shuts out others as they see safe and fitting for them hence returning to the concept that it's about boundaries and power.
    Yes, by virtue of not seeing others as separate personalities with a will of their own, they seek to adjoin them resulting in formation of cults of personality where the N is treated like a guru, bestowing his extensive knowledge or insights to his flock. This may be a real cult, but as Sam Vaknin, the author of one of the most well-known books on NPD, has pointed out that with all the proliferation of social networking and online communities these mini-cults now spring up online. (The Cult of the Narcissist.) This 'in-group' preferably gets isolated from the outsides by the N who will use any means possible to depict those who didn't conform to the rule of N's ego in inferior and demeaning light, eject them from the group, distance his followers, play them and set them against people who could have opened their eyes to the truth of what's going on.

    Their followers in the end are misled, lied to, and used as narcissistic supply and fodder to N's ego, and when they finally proverbially get their teeth kicked in by the N and realize that they have been manipulated, they go complaining about it their blogs and forums, how they didn't realize what has been going on and didn't see it coming. Some of them, however, will repeat this if given the chance, because as Vaknin pointed out these sycophantic cohorts get drawn into N's supply circle and continue propping N's ego due to personality issues of their own (weak boundaries, dependent personality, propensity for idealization/idolization, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by PlacentaCake View Post
    That is not a very logical correlation. People who have boundaries, are typically healthy individuals with a strong sense of self. Those with NPD, are completely unaware of their boundaries and other's boundaries because narcissists see other people as extensions of themselves. I have no idea where you are getting your information, but it can't be from any book or article on narcissism.
    She's not doing a very good job of getting her thoughts across, but Ns are usually aware that they cannot extend themselves indefinitely, they eventually run into people who don't agree to play along or who see behind their mask of congeniality, and then Ns often respond by setting up a protective barrier between whoever they managed to attract and 'the outsiders', resulting in creation of personality cult groups (though sometimes it's not a group but only one person that the N separates from their family and friends and locks into himself). That's what Maritsa is trying to get at I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    She's not doing a very good job of getting her thoughts across, but Ns are usually aware that they cannot extend themselves indefinitely, they eventually run into people who don't agree to play along or who see behind their mask of congeniality, and then Ns often respond by setting up a protective barrier between whoever they managed to attract and 'the outsiders', resulting in creation of personality cult groups (though sometimes it's not a group but only one person that the N separates from their family and friends and locks into himself). That's what Maritsa is trying to get at I think.
    I'm sure Maritsa is (still) referring to a forum member.

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    What the hell are you talking about?
    Read my lips, (in)sane person.

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    Stop with these threads, Maritsa
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
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    Oh my...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I'm sure Maritsa is (still) referring to a forum member.

    probably. oh yay.
    another thread.







    which mod thinks its a good idea to consoldate her threads into one giant one? hmmmmm? anyone..?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    details are not required. This is about the general picture of what is going on. If your impression of someone is static, than any number of factors will not change how you see them and their activity and you can apply a reasoning or rational for what they do, hence this is a general look.
    Its totally pointless to talk about healthy and unhealthy boundaries and the degree to which someone protects them outside of the specific context and its equally pointless to throw narcissism into the mix. Maybe you are just not getting why someone feels like s/he has to establish such boundaries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Its totally pointless to talk about healthy and unhealthy boundaries and the degree to which someone protects them outside of the specific context and its equally pointless to throw narcissism into the mix. Maybe you are just not getting why someone feels like s/he has to establish such boundaries.
    Agreed.

    We're given a generic scenario where:
    person A sets personal boundaries and asks person B to respect those boundaries,
    But person B wants those boundaries to not be there and tries to push past them,
    Who is the supposed narcissist? Person A for wanting the boundary? or person B for wanting to push past them?
    Who wants the power? A for his/her own boundaries? or B for disrespecting the boundaries and wanting them gone?

    It seems to me that if we are to call A power-hungry and narcissitic, then B would be just as equally so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Agreed.

    We're given a generic scenario where:
    person A sets personal boundaries and asks person B to respect those boundaries,
    But person B wants those boundaries to not be there and tries to push past them,
    Who is the supposed narcissist? Person A for wanting the boundary? or person B for wanting to push past them?
    Who wants the power? A for his/her own boundaries? or B for disrespecting the boundaries and wanting them gone?

    It seems to me that if we are to call A power-hungry and narcissitic, then B would be just as equally so.
    http://psychcentral.com/lib/10-way-t...daries/0007498

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Agreed.

    We're given a generic scenario where:
    person A sets personal boundaries and asks person B to respect those boundaries,
    But person B wants those boundaries to not be there and tries to push past them,
    Who is the supposed narcissist? Person A for wanting the boundary? or person B for wanting to push past them?
    Who wants the power? A for his/her own boundaries? or B for disrespecting the boundaries and wanting them gone?

    It seems to me that if we are to call A power-hungry and narcissitic, then B would be just as equally so.
    it makes one a narcissist to want one's boundaries to be respected? can you explain yourself here?

    if person A sets boundaries and person B steamrolls over them it's very clear who is the 'power-hungry' aggressor in this scenario going for the extra 'pie' (B) and who is going to have to defend themselves from unjustified aggression and invasion of their personality (A)

    yet you are saying that these are equivalent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chriscorey View Post
    You're point?
    Is the OP calling what you linked to as Narcistic and wanting power?
    Do you disagree about the pointlessness of talking about if narcissism and power hunger is a component of generic boundary setting, without any particular context?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    You're point?
    Is the OP calling what you linked to as Narcistic and wanting power?
    Do you disagree about the pointlessness of talking about if narcissism and power hunger is a component of generic boundary setting, without any particular context?

    I said she wasn’t doing a good job of getting her point across. The link explains why healthy boundaries are important, and how to establish in a healthy way.
    Amber casts infinity of shadows, and my Avalon had cast many of its own, because of my presence there. I might be known on many earths that I had never trod, for shadows of myself had walked them, mimicking imperfectly my deeds and my thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    it makes one a narcissist to want one's boundaries to be respected? can you explain yourself here?

    if person A sets boundaries and person B steamrolls over them it's very clear who is the 'power-hungry' aggressor in this scenario going for the extra 'pie' (B) and who is going to have to defend themselves from unjustified aggression and invasion of their personality (A)

    yet you are saying that these are equivalent?
    First, the OP gave the generic scenario and accused A of being the power hungry and narcistic one, not I.
    I was pointing out that B could just as easily be accused of the same thing.


    Edited to add a reminder of what OP said
    In my observation, people who want their boundaries observed just want to be in power and they don't really know how to relate to someone in their space except for on their terms which translates into narcissism....Eliza, I think you were right.
    Boundary setter A gets accused of wanting power and being narcistic.


    Oh yeah... I do think that narcissists see others as extensions of themselves hence they create or strive to create an environment which encloses or shuts out others as they see safe and fitting for them hence returning to the concept that it's about boundaries and power.
    Again, person A (the boundary setter) is accused of wanting power and being narcistic.
    Last edited by anndelise; 10-13-2013 at 04:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    First, the OP gave the generic scenario and accused A of being the power hungry and narcistic one, not I.
    I was pointing out that B could just as easily be accused of the same thing.
    if you weren't supporting her point that's fine, I've come to expect some strange arguments from Maritsa but wasn't sure if you were extrapolating from it because it's a rather bizarre claim to make (and obviously an ego driven one)

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    And despite them being dangerous individuals, the behaviour described in the post above should inspire more sadness than anger.

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    There are plenty of narcissists on this forum who reject the idea of negotiating solid and sensible boundaries. The mostly yell 'Narcissist!' when challenged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    There are plenty of narcissists on this forum who reject the idea of negotiating solid and sensible boundaries. The mostly yell 'Narcissist!' when challenged.
    THANK YOU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae16t View Post
    Sam Vaknin, an author on narcissism, someone who has been clinically evaluated by European and American scales as psychopathic, and someone who self-diagnoses with NPD, states this link between narcissism and authority (a type of boundary):

    "I make it a point to triumphantly ignore and belittle figures of authority. Knowing that their options of retaliation are rather limited by my official position, or by law - I abuse them flagrantly. When a security guard or a policeman halts me, I pretend I haven't heard him and proceed with callous disregard. When threatened, I go unpredictably wild. In doing so I (very often) provoke repulsion and pity and (much less often) fear and amazement. Often I find myself in danger, always punished, forever the losing party.

    So, why do it?

    First, because it feels great. To experience immunity, shielded behind an invisible wall, untouchable, and, therefore, by implication, omnipotent.

    Second, because I actively and knowingly seek to be punished, perceived as the "bad man", the corrupt, no good, vile, heartless, villain.

    Third, I project my own shortcomings, deficiencies, pain, and rage onto these mother and father substitutes. I then react to these behaviours and negative emotions I perceive in others with righteous and furious indignation.

    My inability to work in a team, to be instructed, to accept orders, to admit to ignorance, to listen to reason, and to succumb to social conventions, or to superior knowledge and credentials - transformed me into a reclusive and clownish disappointment. People are always misled by my intelligence into predicting a bright future for me and my work. I end up shattering their hopes. Mine is a heartless march to heartbreak.

    So, what now?

    I am a little over forty and a lot overweight. My teeth are rotting and my breath is bad. I am entirely celibate. I am a ruptured nervous wreck. I communicate almost exclusively through rage attacks and vitriolic diatribes. I cannot go back to my own disintegrating country - and am trapped in another. I desperately seek Narcissistic Supply. I delude myself regarding my achievements and status, fully aware of my self-delusion. It is surrealistic, this infinite regression of mirrors, true and false. Mine is the on going nightmare of reality itself.

    And beneath it all, there is an ominous spring of sadness. The flotsam that is my being in the murky puddle of my pain. I do not feel it anymore, I just recognize its existence, like a presence in the dark.

    I am devoid of energy. I am denuded of defences. I stumble. I get up. I stumble again. Floored, no one bothers to count to ten. I know I will revive. I know I will survive. I just don't know what for."


    NPD and ASPD (or APD, if preferred), if one believes in such labels, have been linked to complete disregard, or inability to pick up on, both authority and social norms. Maybe they lost their innocence too dramatically early or maybe their brains lack certain mechanisms to relate certain types of information. Who knows, and there are so many tangents for this, but the idea remains that when certain boundaries are crossed, it can and will provoke trauma in others. Neither will likely care if this is done, and will likely be unaware that they had even done such.

    And, so, it is not about power to them. Rather, it is how they cope and fill their non-existent sense of self within the remainder of society or loved ones.
    HOW about when they assume control and power of a chatroom and purposely not mod ONE member so that EVERYONE and the person in power can ban her...sounds pretty darn narcissistic in power to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    THANK YOU
    YOU'RE WELCOME

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    YOU'RE WELCOME
    adding to what you said sounds like just an immature person

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    adding to what you said sounds like just an immature person
    I think people know exactly what they are doing. Its just that everyone is the hero in their own story. You need to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt Maritsa.

    People are actually simple but are driven by direct and indirect hopes and fears. They can be remarkably direct when you remove the fluff and magic fairy dust around the edges.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    I think people know exactly what they are doing. Its just that everyone is the hero in their own story. You need to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt Maritsa.
    i know

    i'm trying to find a common ground in excusing the the things about the person that some may find repulsive or inexcusable that often hurts me because i get the short end of the stick but it also allows people to have a place

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    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    HOW about when they assume control and power of a chatroom and purposely not mod ONE member so that EVERYONE and the person in power can ban her...sounds pretty darn narcissistic in power to me
    maybe they don't like this person.

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    HOW about when they assume control and power of a chatroom and purposely not mod ONE member so that EVERYONE and the person in power can ban her...sounds pretty darn narcissistic in power to me
    But at the same time, being made a mod means being given power/status associated with mods.
    So, wouldn't Wanting to be a mod mean that person Wants the power/status associated with mods?


    Personally, I don't care for being labeled as a mod, nor do I want the responsibilities associated with it. And if I went into a room where people kept kicking me out or banning me, then why on earth would I want to keep going in there? I certainly wouldn't want to push my presence onto them if they so obviously don't want it.
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