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Thread: Barack Obama/Boehner/Ryan Intertypes

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Default Barack Obama/Boehner/Ryan Intertypes

    I'm not typically into politics, but being furloughed is getting old so i've been listening/reading a bit more about what's been going on.

    Anyway, this dynamic sort of caught my eye.

    Obama - Boehner: STALEMATE, no compromises, the two are UNABLE to negotiate.

    Obama - Ryan: negotiations are starting to happen.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/11/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1


    I know a common typing for Obama is ESI. What are John Boehner's and Paul Ryan's types? I'm curious, I think there may be some socionic undercurrent here.
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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Oh looks like on socionix.com, Paul Ryan is typed SEE and John Boehner is typed LSI. I dont disagree with those typings.

    So that makes:
    Obama (ESI) -- Boehner (LSI) --> Business partners
    Obama (ESI) -- Ryan (SEE) --> Mirrors

    Makes sense I guess that quadra mates would have better dialogue and work with each other better. LSIs are so rigid too. UGH. There we have it... when an LSI is serving as the "chief negotiator" it shuts down the entire government... of course!
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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Where's John Boehner typed LSI…?

    He doesn't show up in here: http://types.socionix.com
    sigh... i'll have to dig up the link again...

    What type do you think he is?

    EDIT: here it is... http://gallery.socionix.com/composites/Beta/
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    Obama LSI Boehner some kind of a ISTp same relations except some difference in nurture kind of ideology.
    Obama LSI Ryan SLI -quasi-identical..."Quasi-Identical partners can interact with each other in a more or less peaceful manner if both partners are Thinking types. "
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-13-2013 at 08:52 AM.

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    I would have put Obama down as a Beta NF (EIE) from my interpretation.

    In a nutshell though i think Boehner and Obama just essentially have conflicting agendas. Whether the relationship is conflicting or perfect understanding is of no consequence, they won't listen to each other because they don't want to and are motivated by incentives greater than harmony.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Barack Obama: IEI, ESI, or LII [3w4 so/sp]
    John Boehner: LSI, ESI, or ESE? [2w3 so/sp]
    Paul Ryan: SLE [3w2 so/sp]
    John Kerry: EIE, LIE?, or EII/LII?? [1w9 so/sp]



    - Barack Obama: IEI, ESI or LII [3w4 so/sp]

    Obama XIII.jpg















    - my current (‘alternative’) typing of President Barack Obama: IEI-Fe (Dominant subtype) [IEI-LSE]

    Of course Rick and many others have typed him IEI before.

    http://nypost.com/2013/05/26/os-split-personality/

    - Michael Goodwin: “The president reportedly worked on the speech for months, and probably expects the planet to heal as a result. But with his administration facing multiple crises, Americans would be better off if he spent more time giving them reasons to trust their government and less time with his head in the clouds. The nation needs a hands-on leader, not a dreamer-in-chief.

    And the next time he needs to share his personal torment, he should just call a shrink.”


    http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion...n-full-display

    - Lee-Anne Goodman: “But did anyone really want to listen to a Whiner-in-Chief?”

    “But given how many complaints the same press corps frequently levels against the White House for failing to make the president available for such news conferences, this seemed a whine-athon with no clear winner.”

    “But perhaps a better idea might be to simply have something to say, and some concrete ideas to succeed, before facing the media again.”


    - Walter PPK: ‘As Obama smiles into the camera, using words to evoke some of the best sentiments within us, it's hard to believe certain facts about him:

    Obama terrorizes innocent Pakistanis on an almost daily basis. The drone war he is waging in North Waziristan isn't "precise" or "surgical" as he would have Americans believe. It kills hundreds of innocents, including children. And for thousands of more innocents who live in the targeted communities, the drone war makes their lives into a nightmare worthy of dystopian novels. People are always afraid. Women cower in their homes. Children are kept out of school. The stress they endure gives them psychiatric disorders. Men are driven crazy by an inability to sleep as drones buzz overhead 24 hours a day, a deadly strike possible at any moment. At worst, this policy creates more terrorists than it kills; at best, America is ruining the lives of thousands of innocent people and killing hundreds of innocents for a small increase in safety from terrorists. It is a cowardly, immoral, and illegal policy, deliberately cloaked in opportunistic secrecy. And Democrats who believe that it is the most moral of all responsible policy alternatives are as misinformed and blinded by partisanship as any conservative ideologue.

    Obama established one of the most reckless precedents imaginable: that any president can secretly order and oversee the extrajudicial killing of American citizens. Obama's kill list transgresses against the Constitution as egregiously as anything George W. Bush ever did. It is as radical an invocation of executive power as anything Dick Cheney championed. The fact that the Democrats rebelled against those men before enthusiastically supporting Obama is hackery every bit as blatant and shameful as anything any talk radio host has done.

    Contrary to his own previously stated understanding of what the Constitution and the War Powers Resolution demand, President Obama committed U.S. forces to war in Libya without Congressional approval, despite the lack of anything like an imminent threat to national security.’


    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ar...Candidates.asp

    ‘The magazine American Conservative once described him as ‘a formidable identity artist.’ The observation was meant pejoratively, but it is also true, and arguably the key to his success. Mr. Obama’s early life suggests not adaptation, the chameleon’s ability to blend with the surroundings, but something more fundamental, a clear-eyed determination to change himself and establish his own identity by force of will. As a student, he read Nietzsche, while developing his own will to power.” (“The Times,” US Election Special Section, Nov. 5, 2008), p. 4.)

    This also coincides perfectly with the Three personality pattern: we see in Obama a “formidable identity artist” in his ability to become what he thinks people want, to embody in himself and, importantly, to project to others what he intuits what they want to see in themselves. In effect, the Three becomes the screen on which others project their own hopes, ideals, and aspirations, and few in American politics have done this as successfully or completely as Barack Obama. An average Three will, however, do this as the projection of an image which increasingly has little connection with his or her real substance. A healthy Three, on the other hand, will actually embody and project the aspirations of others because he or she has become what they point toward: they actually become the “ideal” they seem to be.

    Naturally, the process of becoming authentic and of being the person he seems to be started early in life for Obama, as it does for every child. His own identity and value were problematic, being the child of mixed-race parents, having an abandoning and absent father, and living much of his life with his white grandparents in racially and culturally diverse Hawaii.



    IEI V.jpg

    ESI V.jpg

    LII II.jpg









    - John Boehner: LSI-Se or ESI? [LSI>ESI] or ESE-Si? (Normalizing subtype) [2w3 so/sp]





    http://jezebel.com/5879342/john-boeh...usiness-attire

    ‘Everyone was pretty emotional before, during, and after Gabrielle Giffords's farewell speech on the floor of the US House of Representatives today, including Speaker of the House John Boehner. But was he really crying about the departure of his colleague... or a lack of formality in legislators' business clothes?

    After hugging Giffords, the Ohioan glanced around the room and sternly intoned, "The chair would remind all members to be in proper business attire when you come to the floor of the House."’











    http://www.celebritytypes.com/esfj.php

    ‘John Boehner

    U.S. Congressman (R) and Speaker of the House

    Boehner: "I'm what you'd call a regular guy with a big job."

    [Asked about his job as a salesman:]
    Boehner: "I was the most straightforward salesman there was. I wanted to get my cards on the table as quickly as I could and encourage the guy across the table to put his cards on the table [as well]."

    [High school football coach:] "He was ... a compassionate and caring team player."

    Sabrina Eaton: "Boehner has perfected the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable."’



    - John Boehner: “I’m a pretty emotional guy; and there’s just some things that trigger real emotions . . . .”

    “What you see is what you get. I know who I am, I’m comfortable in my own skin. And everybody who knows me knows that I get emotional about certain things.”





    LSI VII.jpg

    ESI VIII.jpg

    ESI IV.jpg

    ESE.jpg




    - Paul Ryan: SLE-Ti? (Normalizing subtype) [3w2 so/sp]

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...40a0_blog.html

    ‘Ryan has been called the “ideological leader” of the Republican party by President Obama, and his ideas have galvanized both its establishment and the Tea Party wings, so much so that some see him as the most influential member of the GOP. By now most know Ryan as an analytical, policy-driven lawmaker unafraid to push traditional thinking when it comes to his ideas, which have been described (depending on the speaker) as everything from bold and courageous to extremist and radical.’

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...l-ryan-primer/

    DIONNE: Paul Ryan is a Beltway ideologue. "If Paul Ryan were a liberal, conservatives would describe him as a creature of Washington who has spent virtually all of his professional life as a congressional aide, a staffer at an ideological think tank and, finally, as a member of Congress. In the right’s shorthand: He never met a payroll. If they were in a sunny mood, these conservatives would readily concede that Ryan is a nice guy who’s fun to talk to. But they’d also insist that he is an impractical ideologue. He holds an almost entirely theoretical view of the world defined by big ideas that never touch the ground and devotes little energy to considering how his proposed budgets might affect the lives of people he’s never met...Liberals and conservatives have switched sides on the matter of which camp constitutes the party of theory and which is the party of practice. Americans usually reject the party of theory, which is what conservatism has now become."’




    http://typewatchenneagram.blogspot.c...ram-types.html

    SLE XII.jpg




    - John Kerry: EIE-Ni (Normalizing subtype) or LIE-Ni (Normalizing subtype) [1w9 so/sp]















    http://globenewswire.com/news-releas...ip-Traits.html

    “ . . . . [Kerry] . . . scores low on Altruism (tries to be polite, unselfish) and Modesty. Like John F. Kennedy, whom Kerry most resembles among former presidents, he appears low in Straightforwardness and Dutifulness, and looks beyond traditional sources of moral authority when making decisions involving values.”


    http://typewatchenneagram.blogspot.c...ram-types.html

    EIE II.jpg

    EIE IV.jpg

    LIE X.jpg





    HERO: I believe that the United States is currently in Fetal Stage One or Fetal Stage Two. The government shutdown in 2013 may have been the only way to exit an over-extended Fetal Stage Four without an ‘official’, ‘major’, and/or ‘dramatic’ war, etc. In countries with inferior/less-advanced child-rearing, government, etc. Fetal Stage Four can look a lot worse and can drag out a lot longer. Here are some descriptions of the four phases [America was already in Fetal Stage Four before the 2012 election, and of course Fetal Stage Four continued until the government shutdown allowed Fetal Stage One to finally emerge again.]


    http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/eln05_psychogenic.html

    THE FOUR PHASES OF LEADERSHIP

    Fantasy analyses I have done of magazine covers and cartoons over the past two decades reveal that there are four phases of group-fantasies about leaders, as they become less and less able to provide grandiose manic solutions to the nation's growing growth panic. Since group anxieties are embedded in a fetal matrix, these four phases of group-fantasy parallel the four phases of birth. The four leadership phases are: (1) strong, (2) cracking, (3) collapse and (4) upheaval.


    Strong Phase [Fetal Stage One]

    In the first year or so of his term of office, the leader is portrayed as grandiose, phallic and invincible, able to hold all forces of evil at bay and able to contain the unconscious anxieties of the nation. Photos of the leader appearing on magazine covers and in newspapers are mainly taken from the level of a small child, making him seem like a strong parent. International political crises occurring in this strong phase are rarely seen as dangerous or as requiring an active response; wars are rarely started in the first year of leadership. The strong phase is actually as unrealistic as later phases, since people imagine that their private emotional lives will be magically much better simply because yet another savior sits in an office somewhere, not because they plan to devote themselves to real change.



    Cracking Phase [Fetal Stage Two]


    In the next year or more, the leader's deification begins to fail, and he is shown as weakening, often appearing in cartoons with actual cracks in him as he is seen as increasingly impotent and unable to handle the emotional burdens of the nation. The media spend an inordinate amount of time analyzing whether this or that minor event might make the leader weaker. While the nation responds to solid economic growth through more and more manic overinvestment and overproduction, fears of growth are increasingly expressed, as "things seem to be about to get out of control"--i.e., the nation's real progress begins to stir up abandonment fears. The nation engages in an increasing number of economic and political manic projects to ward off their abandonment depression. Evil monsters are depicted in cartoons as starting to pursue the leader, and the group's boundaries are felt to be cracking, with images of leaking water and crumbling walls predominating, as though the nation's womb-surround is cracking. Complaints of being crowded, hungry and breathless begin, enemies start to proliferate and become more threatening.


    Collapse Phase [Fetal Stage Three]

    The leader and various delegate-groups are expected to voice and take some grandiose manic action to relieve those feelings, restaging the imagined threat rather than remaining hypervigilant and paranoid forever. Nations react to foreign policy crises more belligerently in their collapse phases than in their strong phases. Even before an "enemy" is chosen, the government often takes some economic measures to "stop things from getting out of control," making more and more "mistakes" in economic policy that are unconsciously designed to slow progress, such as deflationary monetary policies. The nation also conducts "purity crusades" to put an end to the sexual and other liberties supposedly responsible for the nation's moral collapse. Troops are often scurried around the world to meet minor emergencies or to prepare for action. Free-floating paranoid fantasies multiply of poisonous enemies, who are often pictured as envious of the nation's progress and about to strike, so that "preemptive action" against them seems necessary.

    The collapse phase ends with a hypervigilant paranoid "search for a humiliating other"--an enemy who, in a moment of group-psychotic insight, can be identified as the concrete source of the nation's distress.


    Upheaval Phase [Fetal Stage Four]

    The leader begins the upheaval phase pictured as a wimp, overwhelmed by poisonous forces, impotent to ward off disaster, which is often depicted as a dangerous water-beast (poisonous placenta) along with images of floods, whirlpools and devouring mouths--media imagery similar to medieval depictions of Hell as a Devouring Demon. Anti-children crusades multiply, attacking people's projected inner child for being spoiled, sinful, greedy and out of control. When the growth panic is at a peak, "poison alerts" are declared and fears of maternal abandonment and wishes for maternal engulfment and rebirth proliferate. Political cartoons and popular movies contain more and more apocalyptic upheaval birth fantasies, full of vaginal tunnels and exploding pressures. Rational national progress seems to be unimportant, group-delusions and group-trance projects are at a peak, and action becomes irresistible as the nation searches for some magical restoration of potency. This restoration, rebirth or revitalization wish turns into a group ritual that at times can take one or more of three forms:

    (1) Regicidal Solution: If the leader fails to find an appropriate enemy, he himself can be designated as the enemy of the nation, and a ritual slaying is enacted, either by actual regicide or by throwing him out of office. Should he be reelected at the end of his first term, a symbolic death and rebirth ritual is enacted, and the leader has more time to find a solution to the growth panic. [HERO: This is what happened with Obama in 2012 and 2013, yet of course the government shutdown wasn’t really his ‘solution’.]

    (2) Martial Solution: If an external enemy can be found who will co-operate by humiliating the nation as they felt humiliated by their parents during childhood, this enemy can now be seen as the source of all their fears, and military action can be taken by the now-heroic leader in order to clear out the pollution and produce a rebirth of national strength and purpose. Wars are often preceded by apocalyptic growth panic movements, "Great Awakenings" and other end-of-the-world group-fantasies. [Charles B. Strozier, Apocalypse: On the Psychology of Fundamentalism in America. Boston: Beacon Press, 1994.] The leader is split into two parts, and the "poison" part is projected into the "enemy" leader, who agrees to engage in a mutual humiliation ritual and then fight the cosmic battle between good and evil and "flush out" the nation's fears.

    The nation feels often enormous relief by the designation of the enemy, rather than being fearful of war's destructiveness. The finding of an external enemy as a poison container produces a burst of dopamine-filled euphoria. As Churchill wrote his wife in 1914, as England prepared for war, "Everything tends toward catastrophe and collapse. I am interested, geared up and happy." Similarly, on the day President Truman decided to send U.S. troops to Korea, one American wrote from Washington, D.C. that "Never before...have I felt such a sense of relief and unity pass through this city...When the President's statement was read in the House, the entire chamber rose to cheer." The sending off of the nation's youth to be killed in wars becomes a scapegoating of one's own vital self, the blood shed is felt to be a purging of the polluted blood infecting the nation's arteries and the identification with the nation's grandiose military leaders is felt to be a magical restoration of potency. Genocidal wars are the most extreme example of cleansing group-fantasies. They are most often engaged in by nations with especially poor childrearing compared to their neighbors, at times when they are attempting to make a leap into modernity, so that the unaccustomed freedom creates an intense growth panic which can only be cleansed by a sacrifice of millions of helpless scapegoats, representatives of the nation's "polluted" aggressive and sexual wishes.


    (3) Internal Sacrifice Solution: If the leader cannot find an external enemy with whom to engage in a sacrificial war, he often turns to an internal sacrifice, either a violent revolution or an economic downturn. At the end of the 1920s, for instance, as economic and social progress seemed to have gotten "out of control," world bankers--chief sacrificial priests of modern nations--pursued deflationary economic policies, trade barriers were erected and many other "mistakes" were made that were motivated to produce the Great Depression that sacrificed so much of the wealth of the world. As Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon said in 1929 as the Federal Reserve pushed the world into the Great Depression, "It will purge the rottenness out of the system." [William Greider, Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1987, p. 300.] Business cycles, as William K. Joseph has shown, are driven by the manic and depressive cycles of group-fantasy, as manic defenses against growth panic are followed by depressive collapses into emotional despair and inaction. Indeed, most death rates, car crashes, homicides, cancer, pneumonia, heart and liver diseases rise during prosperous, manic times and are lower during depressions and recessions. [Business Week, July 1, 1996, p. 22.] Only suicide (internal sacrifice) rises during economic declines, reacting to the prevailing group-fantasy need for internal sacrifice.

    Depressions and recessions are thus not due to "the Invisible Hand" of economics but are motivated sacrifices that often kill more people than wars do, halting dangerous prosperity and social progress that seem to be getting "out of control." That growing wealth often produces anxieties rather than happiness can be shown empirically. From 1957 to 1995, Americans doubled their income in real dollars, but the proportion of those telling pollsters that they are "very happy" declined from 35 to 29 percent. [David G. Myers and Ed Diener, "The Pursuit of Happiness." Scientific American, May 1996, p. 70.] Periodic economic downturns are the antidotes administered by sacrificial priests for the disease of "greed." Cartoons prior to economic downturns often portray greedy people being sacrificed on altars or children being pushed off cliffs, scapegoats for "greedy" childhood selves felt to be responsible for the trauma once experienced. Like Aztec human sacrifices,* recessions and depressions are accompanied by national sermons, "cautionary tales," about how sacrifices are necessary to purge the world of human sinfulness.


    The choice between these different solutions to growth panic follows cyclical patterns, wars and depressions alternating in group-fantasy cycles of varying lengths. [HERO: Of course the way we conduct war(s) has changed, and so have many other things in the world. Sometimes a government shutdown is the only ‘solution’.]

    * Ptolemy Tompkins, This Tree Grows Out of Hell: Mesoamerica and the Search for the Magical Body. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1990, p. 120.



    ‘In stage one, when the leader is strong—often but not always at the beginning of a presidential term—the nation seems safe and the “enemy” is kept at bay. Politics seems to be centered around the personality of a nurturant fantasy-leader, and to consist of discussions of how strong he is, whether he is too strong, whether government is doing enough, or is too big, and so on. In time, the ability of the leader to sustain a role of total magical nurturance to his people begins to deteriorate, and the “Cracking” stage two begins. News articles proliferate on how the internal strains in our country are threatening our national strength, on how a sudden collapse of values is to be feared, and on how the enemy too (projectively) seems to be “cracking at the seams,” with crises of leadership that may make them unstable and therefore dangerous. Stage three, “Collapse,” often begins with a specific event that can be viewed as a “collapse of values” which the fantasy-leader is helpless to prevent—whether a set of local events, such as riots, or an external event, such as a foreign policy reverse. During this stage, the central focus of anxiety is: Can the helpless leader protect us against possible upheavals and catastrophes? Articles are written on how crowded the world (or the cities or the highways) is getting, how slender the food supply is, how polluted the environment has become, and how sheer chaos is just around the corner., Finally, with stage four, “Upheaval,” birth itself begins, and the nation looks for some crisis, usually involving war or the threat of war, to get into. The nation feels trapped, choking, claustrophobic, and must engage in a “struggle for freedom” in order to fight its way out of an intolerable situation. After a crisis situation is located, the enemy is engaged, and the nation feels strong again—and also greatly relieved, because at least it is now actively fighting something in the real world rather than passively suffering the fantasied intolerable pressures. (Political cartoons of the head hurting from painful pressures, and of the body being stretched and twisted, mark this stage.) But if the leader cannot “win” the war within a year or so, the nation fears it is not so tough after all and may actually die during its birth-crisis, and the leader is then instructed by the fantasy-language of all the media at once that somehow the birth pains must be ended. The leader then ends the war (at least in fantasy), the leader is once again strong, and the cycle repeats itself all over again.’—Lloyd deMause



    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar...power-20110327

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-crimes-drones


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-HYOzJmCXw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq0E_Nx5sm0
    Last edited by HERO; 02-22-2014 at 12:23 AM.

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    Moderator Reficulris's Avatar
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    Those fucking long posts......

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    Blaze's Avatar
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    HerO great Post. Agree w your typings also.....it's a beta world right now. Are we due for a gamma transition in the next presidency?

    No...don't agree w ESI for Obama, he's way too laid back and cool.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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