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Thread: Consciousness and quadras

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    Default Consciousness and quadras

    Hmmmm....

    So, the conscious and unconscious are opposing quadras it would seem..

    1. Might some psychoses appear as a personality flip (like a reversal of quadras for the person)?

    2. If a person has developed (at least) their strong unconscious functions to nearly the same degree as their conscious ones, might they have difficulty choosing between opposing quadra?
    INTp

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    Default Re: Consciousness and quadras

    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    Hmmmm....

    So, the conscious and unconscious are opposing quadras it would seem..

    1. Might some psychoses appear as a personality flip (like a reversal of quadras for the person)?
    I have speculated, based on some crude observations, that a person under extreme stress might behave like their conflictor, that is, of opposing quadra -- something like it has been suggested by MBTI sites and is consistent with the Enneagram. Socionics doesn't seem to concern itself with "atypical" behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    2. If a person has developed (at least) their strong unconscious functions to nearly the same degree as their conscious ones, might they have difficulty choosing between opposing quadra?
    I'm not sure about "developed" - - I think that a type who, for professional reasons, had to concentrate on may have this difficulty at first. I also know an INFj who had difficulty seeing himself as > since he said "I have both". However, I think this is more a question of low self-awareness and understanding of the functions; and other functions should provide the answer as to the true quadra.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Consciousness and quadras

    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    1. Might some psychoses appear as a personality flip
    Might the itch on my nose be as well??

    Questions like these are asked again and again and I get the impression some people are trying to turn MBTI/Socionics (and other kinds of personality theories) into all-encompassing answers. Be careful with that! If you want an answer to that question, why not post it on a forum of psychiatrists instead of here?

    The causes of psychoses themselves are still little understood phenomeni by scientists, even to the extent that, IMHO, it does not legitimize this kind of discussion. I think this kind of discussion is useful only in relationship to neuroses.
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    Default Re: Consciousness and quadras

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    Hmmmm....

    So, the conscious and unconscious are opposing quadras it would seem..

    1. Might some psychoses appear as a personality flip (like a reversal of quadras for the person)?
    I have speculated, based on some crude observations, that a person under extreme stress might behave like their conflictor, that is, of opposing quadra -- something like it has been suggested by MBTI sites and is consistent with the Enneagram. Socionics doesn't seem to concern itself with "atypical" behavior.
    Have look at my navel: I was thinking of your theory the other day after meeting the ENTp I was with during my longtime illness. What I noticed about the difference in my behaviour is that I'm back to using and I'm more confident about it, whereas for a while there I was more about . (The weak spot here is identifying my behavoir rather than the functions.)

    On the other hand, isn't there already a theory about how you resort to using other functions when your primary don't help?
    INFj

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    Default Re: Consciousness and quadras

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    Hmmmm....

    So, the conscious and unconscious are opposing quadras it would seem..

    1. Might some psychoses appear as a personality flip (like a reversal of quadras for the person)?
    I have speculated, based on some crude observations, that a person under extreme stress might behave like their conflictor, that is, of opposing quadra -- something like it has been suggested by MBTI sites and is consistent with the Enneagram. Socionics doesn't seem to concern itself with "atypical" behavior.
    Interesting. Have you noticed if it's a particular type or set of stress(es)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    2. If a person has developed (at least) their strong unconscious functions to nearly the same degree as their conscious ones, might they have difficulty choosing between opposing quadra?
    I'm not sure about "developed" - - I think that a type who, for professional reasons, had to concentrate on may have this difficulty at first. I also know an INFj who had difficulty seeing himself as > since he said "I have both". However, I think this is more a question of low self-awareness and understanding of the functions;
    Or could it also be adequate/too much self-awareness with a poor understanding of the model? It seems that if a person considers two corresponding functions (Te : Ti) equal, the primary difference is between which one is conscious and which unconcious. If one notices the use of both, how to tell which is which?

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    and other functions should provide the answer as to the true quadra.
    The differences between the properties of the weak placements seems easier to perceive than those of the strong ones, and "low self-awareness and understanding of the functions" might apply here better.
    INTp

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    Default Re: Consciousness and quadras

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    1. Might some psychoses appear as a personality flip
    Might the itch on my nose be as well??
    "See here! this apple falls because of GRAVITY!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    Questions like these are asked again and again and I get the impression some people are trying to turn MBTI/Socionics (and other kinds of personality theories) into all-encompassing answers. Be careful with that! If you want an answer to that question, why not post it on a forum of psychiatrists instead of here?
    I understand quite well that socionics and like are not capable of explaining everything, but they might explain or contribute to the understanding of more than you might think, and one of the ways to figure out how much further something might extend is to explore beyond the 'safe' places.

    As to why I didn't post on a forum of psychiatrists (well, yet anyway), I thought it might be interesting to those here to at least consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult
    The causes of psychoses themselves are still little understood phenomeni by scientists, even to the extent that, IMHO, it does not legitimize this kind of discussion. I think this kind of discussion is useful only in relationship to neuroses.
    "No one knows anything about xxxxx, so we shouldn't even bother thinking about it"
    INTp

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    As far as the psychoses element goes, I'm not postulating this as causal for a given psychosis, but as a symptom. That is, the psychosis may happen for x, y, and/or z reason(s), and this may cause a reordering of the functions (eg, the conscious functions shut off or withdraw, and the unconscious cube takes over operations).
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreikin
    As far as the psychoses element goes, I'm not postulating this as causal for a given psychosis, but as a symptom. That is, the psychosis may happen for x, y, and/or z reason(s), and this may cause a reordering of the functions (eg, the conscious functions shut off or withdraw, and the unconscious cube takes over operations).
    I'll offer one example for the purpose of allowing you to see how well this example fits with your thoughts above.

    NeFi is my most comfortable, most natural mode. If I didn't have to do anything else, I'd still be doing stuff like brainstorming ideas especially regarding people's interests, values, experiences, thoughts, etc.

    Ne and Fi were probably the two primary functions I used...up until I was 10ish. At that point, I had no choice but to develop Fe. I had to start paying attention to the very subtle nonverbal cues sent out by some of those around me. I also had to pay attention to the kinds of nonverbal cues I was sending out, myself. My safety depended on timely and appropriate responding and suppressing of these cues. Unfortunately, my Ne kept kicking in, sending me into whirls of what ifs and maybes on what the cues meant. The only way I could attempt to make sense of it was to relate those cues to the behaviors, actions, values, possible thoughts of one particular person (not me). In essence, my NeFi was doing it's best to maintain a focus on Fe signals.

    At about the age of 15 3/4, I added in a newer focus, I was learning that I had to focus on Se type info to help me survive. Finding meaning in all that was going on was driving me crazy. I had to divorce myself from myself..if that makes sense. I wound up having to run on virtual autopilot, having to trust in my instinctual unconscious responses. Running on this unconscious mode....no thinking, just very reactive to the slightest signal left me open to all sorts of "alternative programming". That's really the best way I can describe it. Imagine being physically there....but mentally/emotionally...not available. (Surprisingly, I maintained honor roll status in school up until my senior year. However, as none of it was worked for, I didnt maintain much "learning".)

    After I ran away at 17 1/2, I was still stuck in that mode of NeFi hyperfocusing on Fe signals and Se info. It's not a pretty memory from 17 1/2 - 23yo. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is one of the things they called it. (I had also developed a couple of other labels, but I'd prefer not to mention them here)

    I did not start to overcome the PTSD until I was first in a relatively safe environment where I could once again find meaning in all that had happened and discover just what my own values were, what types of things I, personally, was attracted to, and what repulsed me. These two things made all the difference, and I'm happy to say that I have been PTSD symptom free for almost 4 years now. I am 34yo now. (The other labels I'm still working on, slowly but surely.)
    ***

    So, yes, I agree with the seemingly disorder of functions. My Fe and Se was still NeFi flavored, though, no matter how I look at it. But it still felt like your example of "the conscious functions shut off or withdraw, and the unconscious cube takes over operations".
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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