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Thread: Define male masculine

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    Judging by the number times you have banned yourself in a theatrical way, I would say, not banning oneself, Jadae.
    Last edited by Kim; 09-29-2013 at 06:54 PM.

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    Killing babies
    Eating kittens
    Punching on walls and bleed
    Shooting himself in the head


    Quick summary: Se



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    Quote Originally Posted by nigh View Post
    Killing babies
    Eating kittens
    Punching on walls and bleed
    Shooting himself in the head


    Quick summary: Se


    Clear cut Aquagraph image.

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    This is an attempt to define a quality in terms of a quantity. It is not "technically" logical.

    Now, with that in mind - it is subjectively conceived of. It likely has two core roots: Ideation and Validation. Ideation is your self image as it is reflected in the image of your own father. My father was a US Navy helicopter pilot who won a bronze star for valor in the Vietnam war. He earned the rank of Lieutenant Commander in the Navy Reserves. He later became a television news anchor man and was regarded as a person of noteworthy intellect, wit, generosity, and social idealism. (In Socionics, he was likely a delta NF most likely a IEE.)

    Validation is the gap of what your father is as an idea, with what impact he had in developing you to so you can take on that ideation- given the natural variable of the contribution of your mother to your self conception and the genes you inherited from each. You must struggle with the natural gap of being partly your mom (and that side of you is valued too) with the misunderstandings and real life failures of your father to be a new person. This new person must emerge untarnished from that gap, and must idealy "move the ball forwards" to achieve more than what your parents had achieved.

    There. That is the struggle of manhood in a nutshell. (Now somebody make love to me...)
     
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    Socionics -
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    competent & materially self-sustaining (not just in the can interview well way but also in the could survive in the woods way)
    calm & nonreactive, not easily pushed over
    can take a leadership role without fuss if needed
    possesses cognitive empathy & is generally kind (family man kind of thing + not threatened by differences or weakness in others)
    sanely/reasonably protective of loved ones


    (this isn't an objective list or what all men "should" be like, but just what comes to mind for me)

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    Wow, I'm fairly surprised by ashton´s and lung´s responses. They seem to depict a sort of very IxTx male.

    My surprise comes from the contrast of what is considered masculine in my own "original" culture. Competent and calm are more womanish personality traits (in my view), whereas a typical male is more adventurous (sometimes foolishly so), optimistic and cheery, but also somewhat unconcerned about other people s well-being.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    500 posts in one/two weeks on yet another new account is the very definition of the male masculine. Post/time ratio is a clear male masculinity gauge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae16t View Post
    Seriously -- I want to see you people define male masculine in your own words.
    Whatever it is you are brainwashed into believing needs to be performed to be considered "masculine"? Why are you asking?
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    So biological determinants of maleness (e.g. XY chromosomal pairing, androgenic differentiation, etc.) exert no influence upon psychosocial behavior?
    Zero/none a delta told me. Such humour can be found in the delta quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    So biological determinants of maleness (e.g. XY chromosomal pairing, androgenic differentiation, etc.) exert no influence upon psychosocial behavior?
    They are hardly responsible for "being competent, staying calm under pressure" IMHO.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae16t View Post
    I am asking because it has become apparent to me that this forum has really different perceptions of what fits the bill, to think about how are aware we are or not of the notion, and because of how it relates to other ideas of gender, role, self, and the like. It is also interesting because it begs the question, "Is it definable?" We state it as fact, but really, they are just truths, and all have our (or as you put it, of others) own truths.
    It's an interesting question, especially around here!
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    They are hardly responsible for "being competent, staying calm under pressure" IMHO.
    I'm curious, how do you explain yourself then Kim?

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    if its entirely a social construct, should we not talk about it? do you have any associations with the term, @Kim?

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    farting in bed like it aint nothin, having more hair in the key areas, potential for paternal feelings, ball sweat

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    Quote Originally Posted by squirreltual View Post
    ball sweat
    This is key.

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    The male masculine is as much defined by its interplay with the female feminine and as such is dichotomous.

    Some female feminines are loud and energetic and exchange freely and congenially with calm and inward male masculines. In other examples the female feminine is inward and calm and the male masculine is more aggressive and willful.

    Comment, even in gay or lesbian relationships it is usual for one partner occupies the role of female or male, top/bottom whatever in opposition to their partner and their personality and self image is altered and defined by those they interact with accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post

    Comment, even in gay or lesbian relationships it is usual for one partner occupies the role of female or male, top/bottom whatever in opposition to their partner and their personality and self image is altered and defined by those they interact with accordingly.
    It is? That is news to me.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    I wasn't suggesting that—I'm only saying it's specious to claim gender constructs as being purely arbitrary products of societal consensus.
    Not arbitrary, but a combination. I might post something more elaborate tomorrow.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    I'm using 'competent' in the sense of "being logical and intelligently knowing wtf one's talking about"; I don't see that as contrary to adventurousness. And staying calm under pressure goes with risk-taking.
    Okay, but what about being more or less serious compared than the stereotype of the "female"? I'm just checking if this difference actually exists or it's a byproduct of word choice.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I'm personally biased against the (imagined average apprehension of the) concept of gender and the act of according it enough importance to spend a whole thread on it.
    Reason is a whore.

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    3 P / 1 0
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


    Socionics -
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    There's two ways to be a guy I think...

    You can either be a guide and give people psychological advice from a distance, or the more traditionally male route and be good with physical things/sporty/athletic/the best one to wrestle the bear etc. Hitta is sexy to me because he's a good mixture of the two I think.

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    i think every woman has her own idea of what she considers "masculine," because no guy can truly be considered masculine to everyone. Some girls think it's muscles and strength and the ability to kick ass, some ladies like a guy who is financially successful. Some consider a "real man" someone who can raise a family or be a great father. Depending on someone's individual, even subconscious, idea of masculinity, everyone from a complete nerd to a Hollywood actor is considered to be masculine by the right girl.

    My idea of masculinity is a little based on my current boyfriend, because he's so comfortable with himself, even when he's pretejyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
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    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Isn't it great that you can type lowercase y's now, @Allie?
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    As someone once said in response to a topic like this - Rudyard Kipling's "If" Is a pretty accurate synopsis.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    competent & materially self-sustaining (not just in the can interview well way but also in the could survive in the woods way)
    calm & nonreactive, not easily pushed over
    can take a leadership role without fuss if needed
    possesses cognitive empathy & is generally kind (family man kind of thing + not threatened by differences or weakness in others)
    sanely/reasonably protective of loved ones


    (this isn't an objective list or what all men "should" be like, but just what comes to mind for me)
    This comes to my mind as well. Perfect description, in fact.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    The way I see it is femininity is about having more of an emotional attachment to things, a stronger and more complex emotional link to other people, one that allows to live more intimately with other people over masculinity. Femininity seems to have more of a desire to ease the tensions of other people to the point that it might be seen as naturally submissive, giving someone else's emotional state more attention than their own - or perhaps it's really that femininity is about absorbing emotional states to the point that it submits its own in favor of everyone else's.

    Masculinity seems to be about disconnecting from having emotional attachments. There's this hardness, coldness, callousness with the masculine that can make it seem cool and collected; with less consideration of other people it's easier to reach firm conclusions regarding making decisions and regarding their own emotional state in relation to other people; this would make it easier to be bold with people, which might come off as risk-taking. The masculine has more of a sense of separateness in ideas of self that might make it easier to understand and explain themselves over the feminine.

    ...yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.

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    There was a socionics gradient of the most "manly" types I've seen before. I'll see if I can find it later on....SLE was the manly man, IEI was actually fairly manly too. LSE and EII were described as more feminine despite LSE being somewhat aggressive. Pretty sure as some have said...Se AND Ni types were more masculine. However all this is conjecture, as manly is really only a group of stereotypes related to the biologic condition of being a man with the context of cultural norms and historical knowledge. From a socionics perspective a manly guy would probably just be ones male self or male dual, however culture and personal history is sure to color that perception too. High birth testosterone ratios, most easily measured from the ratio of index to ring finger length, is probably the best manly indicator....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    The way I see it is femininity is about having more of an emotional attachment to things, a stronger and more complex emotional link to other people, one that allows to live more intimately with other people over masculinity. Femininity seems to have more of a desire to ease the tensions of other people to the point that it might be seen as naturally submissive, giving someone else's emotional state more attention than their own - or perhaps it's really that femininity is about absorbing emotional states to the point that it submits its own in favor of everyone else's.

    Masculinity seems to be about disconnecting from having emotional attachments. There's this hardness, coldness, callousness with the masculine that can make it seem cool and collected; with less consideration of other people it's easier to reach firm conclusions regarding making decisions and regarding their own emotional state in relation to other people; this would make it easier to be bold with people, which might come off as risk-taking. The masculine has more of a sense of separateness in ideas of self that might make it easier to understand and explain themselves over the feminine.

    ...yeah, that's pretty much how I see it.
    I don't know why I pitched this as about people; I just realized it doesn't have to be. Instead of people, it would be life. It's annoying to have to explain what you already know when doing so contradicts what it is that's understood...communication can be so frustrating.

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