First off...amazing show. Created by Netflix.
Main character, Francis Underwood, and his wife Claire are a great example of LIE-ESI duality.
His assistant Doug, possibly ILI.
Zoe, perhaps IEE or SEE.
Peter, maybe SEI
And so on.
House of Cards
First off...amazing show. Created by Netflix.
Main character, Francis Underwood, and his wife Claire are a great example of LIE-ESI duality.
His assistant Doug, possibly ILI.
Zoe, perhaps IEE or SEE.
Peter, maybe SEI
And so on.
Francis Underwood: Gamma extrovert
Claire Underwood: LSI
Zoe Barnes: LSE
Peter Russo: SLE
Adam Galloway: EIE
i'm not sure Francis and Claire are duals, even though i like the idea. Claire and her on-off lover Adam could be though, as they find it hard to stay away from each other.
i hadn't thought much about Doug Stamper's type, but i like your suggestion of ILI.
Francis: LIE.
Claire: LSI seems likely.
Zoe: LSE is an awesome typing
yes! I wanted to make a thread about HOC but kept forgetting about it
overall this felt like gamma so+sp series with a few minor characters from other quadra
Francis Underwood: ESI-Se or SEE (so/sp 3w2) - much of his political manipulation is based upon unearthing character flaws of others and then using this information to his own benefit, directly pressuring their weak spots when he needed something from them, which afaik is attributed to gamma SFs, there is also a significant e2-e8 interplay as he changes his tactics from cajoling to despotic domineering
Claire Underwood: ILI-Te - the way she and Frank discuss their marriage almost as if it was a contract or business deal of some kind hints of gamma types for both of them, they also seem to understand where the other is coming from very well (in one scene they discuss how they don't really have a vision for where all of this is headed, which sounded tactical > strategic for both of them so may be ILI-ESI is more fitting than ILI-SEE).
Adam Galloway, Claire's lover: EIE - photographer, a refined soul who provides Claire with an emotional outlet and a distraction from her rather pragmatic life and union of interest with Frank
Remy Danton: EII - he runs a script of his own and is rather indirect in his dealings & innuendos, which contrasts with the very direct and to-the-point methods of Frank as gamma SF, Frank is wary of Remy and for a good reason
Zoe Barnes: LII - she's mostly engaged in searching out and manipulating information, no matter the personal cost to herself, so intuitive logical type seemed fitting
Tom Hammerschmidt, Zoe's boss: LSE-Te - stereotypical lse, hardworking, detail-oriented manager who pedantically checks for quality, believer in the established & old-rooted personal bonds
Lucas Goodwin, Zoe's lover: IEE - in one episode he argues some manner of ethics with Zoe to which she is either oblivious or doesn't consider it significant to take into consideration, possibly supervision between them LII-IEE
Janine Skorsky, Zoe's co-worker: SLI
Peter Russo: LSE (could be LIE also)
Christina, Russo's girlfriend: ESI phobic 6
Doug Stamper: ? his type has completely evaded me, i think this is one of those cases where the type of the actor and the type of the character interfere with one another creating a kind of untypable amalgam
Season two is out.
Frank Underwood still seems LIE.
I see Francis as SEE, sure he uses Te, but he is always so focused on people (Fi) and power (Se) that using Te seems to be only a means of communicating when trying to reason with people (like when he interacts with the president).
Francis: Ni-LIE
Claire: Se-LSI>Se-ESI
Zoe: LII
Russo: ESTx or LIE
Francis has the Ni, Claire has the Se.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
The problem with the characters in this show, especially Underwood, is that they are more amalgamations of power archetypes, ideas about power, and the kinds of people who seek them. As such, I don't believe they even qualify for a proper typology socionically because the characters are not fleshed out enough. There are two many missing pieces, not enough dichotomies, how they process information, energy metabolisms, ect are not fully realized.
General themes can be pulled out, but the real types are sort of elusive. Whatever, agree, don't, its all the same to me.
francis: Te-LIE 8 so/sp
claire: Fi-ESI
zoe: Fe-IEI 3w4
russo: ExTp probably 7w6 sp-last
adam galloway: Fe-ExFj (probably EIE) 3w2 so/sx
doug: Te-SLI 6w5 sp/so
remy: unsure... SEE, ESI or EII, in that order of likelihood.
lucas: Fi-IEE
4w3-5w6-8w7
I agree. At first I thought Claire LSI and Frank ESI but I don't see when they can't be a LSI-EIE duality.Originally Posted by Pookie
I'd say
Frank Underwood: LIE (he's an extroverted version of ILI Francis Urquhart from the BBC series)
Claire: Definitely an Se dominant, I'd tend to lean Se-SEE as I'd say their marriage is best characterized as activity relations. Se- ESI is a possibility, but I find her a little too cold-blooded and amoral to have an Fi base.
Russo:IEE defnitely an infantile/playful romancing style. Smart and a good people person but nevertheless prone to very bad decisions (ti polr), which makes him susceptible to blackmail.
Zoe:IEI charming and drawn to seducing powerful men in order to find the truth (ti HA). Supervision relations would also fit with her inability to read Frank's motivations compared to his ability to read hers.
Doug: Hard to read, oddly I think there's an equally strong argument both for ILI and LSI depending on which of his characteristics you tend to focus on.
Remy: SLI or LSI Introverted, most likely sensing
Lucas Goodwin: LII Competent, logical but a little too unassertive. Seemingly benefit relations going on between him and Zoe. IEE is also a possibility with Zoe devaluing his Fi input, but he seems a little too grounded and linear in his thinking to have Ne as a base and a Ti polr.
Jackie Sharp: ESI although she's assertive and ambitious, she's a moralist above all. Refuses to endorse claire's proposed legislation on military prosecutions to her own detriment because it clashes with her principles on how justice should be carried out in the army.
Raymond Tusk:SLE basically a fictional version of Ted Turner
President walker: LSE a competent leader and manager, his intuition is his weak point.
Last edited by shadowbox; 03-26-2015 at 03:26 PM.
i like lsi for claire. the world of human feeling seems to mystify her (it's a puzzle she tries to solve, her own feelings seem even more mysterious to her). i don't know if frank is better as see, lie or eie. he's such a psychopath, it makes it tough.
i still haven't watched frank's disaster in office. i really want the show to go in the direction of frank trying to become dictator of the us, or world conqueror... it would just be satisfying to watch a show where not only is the protagonist basically a villain, but he always succeeds. i don't really want to see frank fail because i feel it would take away from a little of the absurdity of it all (and then the evil imp in me might cry).
one thing about frank is that he does seem to play relations well, and people well, and seems adept at understanding the emotional reasons behind people's actions. his fluency with this makes me wonder if an ethical type is a better fit for him.
like.
yes, really i think see is a good fit for frank.
--
my memory is returning slowly, so i have to keep adding on. i think i like gamma nt for zoe, or some te type. doug is a weirdo. lii? lsi? (not because he's a weirdo) doug helps frank with organization and logistics and cleans up his messes. it's a thankless job. he's not as hard-hearted as the person in this role needs to be. he's a hard-worker who will slave away for someone else (why frank? i don't know. he was awfully dedicated to frank... i hope i didn't forget some important back story). i think frank will actually have trouble managing things without doug.
Last edited by marooned; 03-26-2015 at 03:43 PM.
Jackie - Fi/Te rational
Remy - Fi-ego
Doug - Te-SLI and a piece of shit
Christina Gallager - ESI
Linda - xII
Lucas - Fi-IEE
Freddy - SLI
Rachel - Delta
Gavin Orsey - Ti-ILE
Seth - LII>LSI
Raymond Tusk - xSE e8
gavin orsay - IEE
i think he's my fav h.o.c. character. the guinea pig helps.
wow, I watched the Pilot. I like Francis; I like him a lot. His way of melding into things, as if invisible, yet quietly manipulating things from a glowing anger in his heart. It's so ... understandable. His idea of revenge makes sense and his choice in women is wonderful. I got either SLE or LIE vibes from him so far; hard to judge just yet.
heh, I've watched up to episode 6 and I think Francis fits SLE-Ti much better than a gamma. His ability to deal with and manipulate and manage and rearrange/organize all the people around him is very sociable. But he doesn't do this out of the bonds or connections he makes with people, but out of what kind of usefulness he thinks he can get out of them. He's willing to throw away "friends" and destroy people to get what he wants. He did help the secret service agent, but then used his help to manipulate him. He destroyed that other congressman only so that he could control him. The only exception is his wife, but even she knows Frank's there to keep her life interesting, not have a family and share deep bonds of love. He didn't even seem to mind when he knew she had some kind of affection for that artist. He doesn't value Fi really at all.
It's a nice contrast to Tony Soprano, who is a lot more reactive and seemed to care so much about his family bonds that it made him kind of stupid and boring (I've typed him LSE). His reactiveness solved one problem, but then created others. At least with Francis, he thinks enough about what he's doing and what's going on to close all the lose ends.
Frank's really interesting, but kind of sad at the same time. He has a good intellect when it comes to dealing with people, but no sense of morals. I want to like him, but his lack of any genuine kindness is a bit off-putting. He's at least more tolerable than Tony Soprano though; his ambition and dedication to controlling chaos and getting what he wants out of it is admirable to me, while Tony Sopranos' obsession with family values seemed inconsistent with how he treated other people and his reactiveness showed how poor his decision-making was.
Most writers (about 25%, I think) for movies, television, and books, are IEI's, and it would be much more likely that an IEI would write about SLE's than have a clear picture of how LIE's act and operate.
Resurrecting in light of #FU2016
Frank and Claire are Victim/Aggressor types, I recognize those themes when I see them. This is SEE/ILI duality.
*drops mic*
Betas are jealous as all hell, I don't see it.
k
good bye
Edit: ok finished 1st season. I'll update a little.
Edit2: into season 2, more edits.
Just about to get through season 1 of this show. I think it's interesting how there are no real "good guys". I pretty much hate everyone except for Sikorsky and Gillian Cole. Yep. still hate everyone.
Frank Underwood-LIE
Claire Underwood- LSI- What a terrible wife too. I imagine she's not even warm to the touch. Probably based on Hilary Clinton, i think.
Zoe Barnes- LIE- She lives in a dump, she's hyper-motivated, and she plays power games. So i vote for Ni/Se over Si/Ne. I suppose LSE could be possible.
Peter Russo- SLE- This guy was pretty pathetic. I actually felt bad for him. I kept thinking he is like a lame deer who needs to be put out of its misery
Christine Gallagher- IEI- Kind of a doe-eyed idiot if you ask me. She turns out to be a sensible person. Actually, no, still kind of a doe-eyed idiot.
Doug- SLI- the guy really reminds me of Mark Ruffalo.
Linda- Te ego.
Vice president- Purposeful Joe Biden copy so LSE
Adam Galloway- IEI
Janine Sikorsky- ILI
Rachel- IEE
Lucas Goodwin- ESI- could maybe be EII also?
Remy Danton- INxx, actually I'm thinking LSI at this point.
Gillian Cole- SEI, i think.
Raymond Tusk- SLI given a mythical Ni ability- I think he was likely based on Warren Buffett.
President- Kind of a white obama. ILE (not that obama is ILE)
President's wife- SEI
Jackie Sharp- A very dominant SEE
Gavin Orsay- ILE
Edward Meechum- ESI
Catherine Durant- LSE
Last edited by Contra; 02-09-2016 at 01:55 PM.
Season 4 -> March 4
CAN'TWAIT
good bye
Meechum: Fi-ESI
Petrov: LSI
Donald Blythe: Ne-LII
Leann Harvey: Te-ILI
Doris: Fi-IEE
Celia: Fi-EII
Tom Yates: Ni-ego played by an SLI
Last edited by suedehead; 06-01-2017 at 11:29 AM.
I only watched bits of Season 1 and 2 and I always thought they went with the 'evil' 'machiavellian' LIE trope for him. I thought Enneagram 8 with self preservational instinct back then. I also saw Enneagram 3 typings for him (why not...). I don't really watch the show though... dunno... I only saw some clips from Season 4 today (hence me turning up here).
And I got angry. That boy had a good house, a good family, the sort I would've killed for, and he didn't even realize it. So I went into the tool shed and I took out an ax. And I said to Walter... "You want to know what it's really like to live at my house?" And I gave that tree a good whack.
Interesting to see what brings out the 'real, heavy reaction' in him. Kinda funny how he is nearly going through the roof and Claire just sits there with folded hands, like a little nun.You don't deserve it. You have no idea what it means to have nothing, you don't value what we have achieved. I've had to fight for everything my entire life. Do you know why I kept this? Do you know? Because it's the one time I was proud of my father, because this man, in this moment as despicable as it was, is fighting to survive. He is doing whatever it took and so will I, with or without you. So no I will not have this conversation. I will not indulge you any further.
Frank - SEE
Claire - ILI
I definitely think that Claire is ILI. She is the one that keeps Frank on track. He will get caught up in the momentary things and she reminded him what their ultimate goal was.
It is a bit disconcerting that neither of the two thought of what they would do once they got the presidency. They really value money, power, and glory to the point that they see these things as ideals without really seeing anything else.
Claire certainly seems like an underdeveloped ILI. I am less sure of Frank's type but SEE seems to fit. He has become very boring over the last few seasons.
I see the two of them as duals.
Will Conway: LSE
Hannah Conway: EII
Mark Usher: Ni-LIE
Jane Davis: Beta, not LSI
Frank EIE
Claire LSI
The common notion that Frank is LIE is wrong. He mostly uses Fe-manipulation tactics and emotional pressure, knows how to read people, predicts their actions. He is able to spontaneously make up great speeches with meaningful pauses, gestures, tone of voice and knows how to use and amplify seemingly personal stories to engage his audience, when he is really just acting. He has an eye for the right words and does not fight with facts and data unlike an LIE would. Instead, Frank works with the audience's emotions - or causes them to have certain emotions.
Gulenko's EIE description:
Stratiyevskaya's EIE description:The EIE encompasses and manages a very wide range of emotional states. Dramatic emotions quickly turn into comic ones or interweave together, however, in company of strangers and unfamiliar people he can behave calmly and hold himself with dignity. [...] Expressive in gestures, gaze, intonation, and other emotional expressions. A good actor or speaker. [...] People in his proximity may experience difficulty dealing with his emotional pressuring.
Hamlet – is a director of human emotions, a director of states and moods. To any person the Hamlet will "assign" precisely that state or mood which he considers necessary to assign.
He respects people who fight, who have integrity and pride, and shows concern for social problems, which indicates Beta. He is very much aware when he is being a hypocrite and doesn't get overwhelmed by the amount of complicated relationships, promises, lies and strategies. LIE's on the other hand, with their weak Fi, are not able to navigate on the same of level human relationships.
Stratiyevskaya's LIE-ESI Duality:
LIE's problem lies in the fact that he doesn't see a system in ethical relations that emerge around him. He doesn't sees such patterns. And what he sees, he doesn't believe in blind childishness of his suggestive function (+Fi). Or even worse, he gets so frightened but what he has seen that he panics and like an ostrich hides his head in the sand, leaving himself unprotected from all the sides.There is a good reason why they are called "The Experimenter". One of LIE's main goal is efficiency, innovation and progress.The LIE himself becomes a victim of manipulation of others [...] The LIE is typically egocentric and easily falls under somebody else's influence [...].
Stratiyevskaya's LIE description:
Frequent change of professions is characteristic for them, as well as change of their place of residence: things didn't work out here – they depart for other places, discover new lands, new opportunities. They are "pioneers".That does not sound like Frank at all. He worked his way up from the son of an alcoholic father who was a farmer, to a congressman, to vice president, to president. The environment he knows best is hierarchy, which indicates aristocracy.The LIE likes to earn "big" money ("otherwise, what's the point?"), and enjoys expending it.
shows aristocracy, emotional pressuring:Money is something that is disposable, and fortunes can be made and lost in a matter of hours. Power, however, does not rely on market forces, and can outlast generations of people.
-Frank Underwood
A common reason to type him LIE is his will to be a leader and his intelligence but that does not exclude EIE on any way:
Stratiyevskaya's EIE description:
Regardless of the scale on which a representative of this type unravels his activity, whether he is a politician or a low level employee, the EIE with perfection wields his entire arsenal of methods and tools needed to forge a necessary to him public opinion, with the aid of which he then intends to direct the actions of people around him into a specific predetermined course. The creation of a formal or informal groups within an already existing system, the emergence of a new formal or informal leader and the displacement of the existing leadership, the changes within hierarchical layers of the system, the exclusion from the group of those who have interfered with his "rearrangement of forces" – all of this is a sphere of EIE's never ceasing activity, independent of his age, occupation, location, and his current social position.
____________________________
Another popular type for Frank is SEE:
Stratiyevskaya's SEE description:
Apart from the fact that SEE's can be manipulative, they are not schemers and have little patience. They don't have such detailed plans fro the future, don't think many steps ahead, don't make negative forecasts and certainly don't philosophize as much as Frank (or at least they don't put as much emphasize on these qualities. Unlike Frank does.). Frank has no interest in protecting his own individuality and his tactics don't include "merciless suppression". We never see Frank wanting approval for his Fi qualities. He wants to leave something for the future. He wants to be immortal.Willful protection of his own interests (and of interests of his "team"), as well as his own priority - are characteristic of the SEE. This is done not for the purpose of direct and merciless suppression, but for maximum freedom of realization of SEE's own sensing potential, for most complete expression his or her bright individuality, for the realization of his or her own ethical purposes and tasks.
It should be noted that in his social initiatives the EIE is very farsighted and prudent. If he has started something, it wasn't by accident - there is always a long-term goal to it, a calculated goal, not just for the goodness of his heart. (What the EIE does from the goodness of his heart he does not demonstrate and advertise to the public [...].)
_____________________________
Good example on EIE(Frank) and LSI(Petrov) Duality. Frank explains to Petrov, that there won't be a revolution when he frees just one man. Petrov as LSI with weak Fe needs Franks information because LSI's a prone to paranoia and distrust(compare Stalin, Hillary Clinton) when is comes to predicting people actions.
Frank and Claire(LSI) Duality:
Here they are talking about creating fear (Fe) and chaos as a response to a failed attempt at winning peoples hearts.
Last edited by Cosmic Teapot; 06-01-2017 at 02:23 PM.
Frank is SEE & Claire is IEI
I don't think I'd type Frank EIE. I think a very good example of an EIE is Governor Conway, and when compared to him, Frank is a much less controlled figure. He's far less poised, he's far less able to turn negative press around by sheer force of charisma. Instead he resorts to elaborate go-arounds that usually involve several layers of subordinates conducting emergency damage control.
I could easily see SEE for Frank. I'm also not sure why SLE isn't being considered, his manipulations are usually transparent. By the end of season 2, everyone and their dog including the 100% socially oblivious President were onto every aspect of his plan. He also has an "it's not personal, it's strictly business" mentality that's described much more of SLEs than SEEs.
For the record, I do think "merciless suppression" describes Frank's behavior in a number of instances. He's very good at LBJ-style browbeating, as seen in the teachers' union subplot.
Last edited by Nanooka; 06-06-2017 at 06:25 PM.
LOL@SEE for francis.
I hope that was constructive.
Anyway, funny how trends in thinking color people's perceptions. Being a cut-throat businessman makes you SEE or something now (@a la TheRealDonaldTrump typing thread). Well I typed Francis SLE back when I was into Hannibal, but they are uniquely different. LIE seems much better now. Too personally invested over playing an interesting game.
Blahblahblah Socionics Likes Constructive wall-of-text taking-sides opinions-as-facts - don't care, still going to say what I want.
^Are you going to present an argument, or are you just rambling incoherently?
blah blah blah
Said it before, ill say it again. Francis is the Ni, Claire is the Se. I'd lean Gamma over Beta. Francis is looking for opportunity, not forecasting danger. Ni+. Claire isn't consolidating power in the structure around her. The structure is imparted from Congress. She's merely being opportunistic and cunning. Se+.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
william conway - LSE
hannah conway - EII
mark usher - SLI
catherine - Fi-ESI
jane - EII
leanne - Ti-SLE
tom yates - Ni-ILI
seth - Ni-LIE
tom hammerschmidt - LIE
brockart - Te-SLI
aidan - Ne-ILE
Last edited by strrrng; 06-07-2017 at 12:41 PM.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Late to the party.
Chapter 53.
Typings to follow.
Claire is a Goddess in this new season.
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