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Thread: House of Cards

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    Thumbs up House of Cards

    First off...amazing show. Created by Netflix.

    Main character, Francis Underwood, and his wife Claire are a great example of LIE-ESI duality.

    His assistant Doug, possibly ILI.

    Zoe, perhaps IEE or SEE.

    Peter, maybe SEI

    And so on.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Francis Underwood: Gamma extrovert
    Claire Underwood: LSI
    Zoe Barnes: LSE
    Peter Russo: SLE
    Adam Galloway: EIE

    i'm not sure Francis and Claire are duals, even though i like the idea. Claire and her on-off lover Adam could be though, as they find it hard to stay away from each other.

    i hadn't thought much about Doug Stamper's type, but i like your suggestion of ILI.

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    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    Francis: LIE.

    Claire: LSI seems likely.
    Zoe: LSE is an awesome typing

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    yes! I wanted to make a thread about HOC but kept forgetting about it
    overall this felt like gamma so+sp series with a few minor characters from other quadra


    Francis Underwood: ESI-Se or SEE (so/sp 3w2) - much of his political manipulation is based upon unearthing character flaws of others and then using this information to his own benefit, directly pressuring their weak spots when he needed something from them, which afaik is attributed to gamma SFs, there is also a significant e2-e8 interplay as he changes his tactics from cajoling to despotic domineering

    Claire Underwood: ILI-Te - the way she and Frank discuss their marriage almost as if it was a contract or business deal of some kind hints of gamma types for both of them, they also seem to understand where the other is coming from very well (in one scene they discuss how they don't really have a vision for where all of this is headed, which sounded tactical > strategic for both of them so may be ILI-ESI is more fitting than ILI-SEE).

    Adam Galloway, Claire's lover: EIE - photographer, a refined soul who provides Claire with an emotional outlet and a distraction from her rather pragmatic life and union of interest with Frank

    Remy Danton: EII - he runs a script of his own and is rather indirect in his dealings & innuendos, which contrasts with the very direct and to-the-point methods of Frank as gamma SF, Frank is wary of Remy and for a good reason

    Zoe Barnes: LII - she's mostly engaged in searching out and manipulating information, no matter the personal cost to herself, so intuitive logical type seemed fitting

    Tom Hammerschmidt, Zoe's boss: LSE-Te - stereotypical lse, hardworking, detail-oriented manager who pedantically checks for quality, believer in the established & old-rooted personal bonds

    Lucas Goodwin, Zoe's lover: IEE - in one episode he argues some manner of ethics with Zoe to which she is either oblivious or doesn't consider it significant to take into consideration, possibly supervision between them LII-IEE

    Janine Skorsky, Zoe's co-worker: SLI

    Peter Russo: LSE (could be LIE also)

    Christina, Russo's girlfriend: ESI phobic 6

    Doug Stamper: ? his type has completely evaded me, i think this is one of those cases where the type of the actor and the type of the character interfere with one another creating a kind of untypable amalgam

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    Season two is out.

    Frank Underwood still seems LIE.

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    I see Francis as SEE, sure he uses Te, but he is always so focused on people (Fi) and power (Se) that using Te seems to be only a means of communicating when trying to reason with people (like when he interacts with the president).

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    Francis: Ni-LIE
    Claire: Se-LSI>Se-ESI
    Zoe: LII
    Russo: ESTx or LIE

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    Francis has the Ni, Claire has the Se.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    The problem with the characters in this show, especially Underwood, is that they are more amalgamations of power archetypes, ideas about power, and the kinds of people who seek them. As such, I don't believe they even qualify for a proper typology socionically because the characters are not fleshed out enough. There are two many missing pieces, not enough dichotomies, how they process information, energy metabolisms, ect are not fully realized.

    General themes can be pulled out, but the real types are sort of elusive. Whatever, agree, don't, its all the same to me.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    francis: Te-LIE 8 so/sp
    claire: Fi-ESI
    zoe: Fe-IEI 3w4
    russo: ExTp probably 7w6 sp-last
    adam galloway: Fe-ExFj (probably EIE) 3w2 so/sx
    doug: Te-SLI 6w5 sp/so
    remy: unsure... SEE, ESI or EII, in that order of likelihood.
    lucas: Fi-IEE
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    bolong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Francis has the Ni, Claire has the Se.
    I agree. At first I thought Claire LSI and Frank ESI but I don't see when they can't be a LSI-EIE duality.

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    I'd say

    Frank Underwood: LIE (he's an extroverted version of ILI Francis Urquhart from the BBC series)

    Claire: Definitely an Se dominant, I'd tend to lean Se-SEE as I'd say their marriage is best characterized as activity relations. Se- ESI is a possibility, but I find her a little too cold-blooded and amoral to have an Fi base.

    Russo:IEE defnitely an infantile/playful romancing style. Smart and a good people person but nevertheless prone to very bad decisions (ti polr), which makes him susceptible to blackmail.

    Zoe:IEI charming and drawn to seducing powerful men in order to find the truth (ti HA). Supervision relations would also fit with her inability to read Frank's motivations compared to his ability to read hers.

    Doug: Hard to read, oddly I think there's an equally strong argument both for ILI and LSI depending on which of his characteristics you tend to focus on.

    Remy: SLI or LSI Introverted, most likely sensing

    Lucas Goodwin: LII Competent, logical but a little too unassertive. Seemingly benefit relations going on between him and Zoe. IEE is also a possibility with Zoe devaluing his Fi input, but he seems a little too grounded and linear in his thinking to have Ne as a base and a Ti polr.

    Jackie Sharp: ESI although she's assertive and ambitious, she's a moralist above all. Refuses to endorse claire's proposed legislation on military prosecutions to her own detriment because it clashes with her principles on how justice should be carried out in the army.

    Raymond Tusk:SLE basically a fictional version of Ted Turner

    President walker: LSE a competent leader and manager, his intuition is his weak point.
    Last edited by shadowbox; 03-26-2015 at 04:26 PM.

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    i like lsi for claire. the world of human feeling seems to mystify her (it's a puzzle she tries to solve, her own feelings seem even more mysterious to her). i don't know if frank is better as see, lie or eie. he's such a psychopath, it makes it tough.

    i still haven't watched frank's disaster in office. i really want the show to go in the direction of frank trying to become dictator of the us, or world conqueror... it would just be satisfying to watch a show where not only is the protagonist basically a villain, but he always succeeds. i don't really want to see frank fail because i feel it would take away from a little of the absurdity of it all (and then the evil imp in me might cry).

    one thing about frank is that he does seem to play relations well, and people well, and seems adept at understanding the emotional reasons behind people's actions. his fluency with this makes me wonder if an ethical type is a better fit for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Francis Underwood: ESI-Se or SEE (so/sp 3w2) - much of his political manipulation is based upon unearthing character flaws of others and then using this information to his own benefit, directly pressuring their weak spots when he needed something from them, which afaik is attributed to gamma SFs, there is also a significant e2-e8 interplay as he changes his tactics from cajoling to despotic domineering
    like.

    yes, really i think see is a good fit for frank.

    --

    my memory is returning slowly, so i have to keep adding on. i think i like gamma nt for zoe, or some te type. doug is a weirdo. lii? lsi? (not because he's a weirdo) doug helps frank with organization and logistics and cleans up his messes. it's a thankless job. he's not as hard-hearted as the person in this role needs to be. he's a hard-worker who will slave away for someone else (why frank? i don't know. he was awfully dedicated to frank... i hope i didn't forget some important back story). i think frank will actually have trouble managing things without doug.
    Last edited by inumbra; 03-26-2015 at 04:43 PM.

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    Jackie - Fi/Te rational
    Remy - Fi-ego
    Doug - Te-SLI and a piece of shit
    Christina Gallager - ESI
    Linda - xII
    Lucas - Fi-IEE
    Freddy - SLI
    Rachel - Delta
    Gavin Orsey - Ti-ILE
    Seth - LII>LSI
    Raymond Tusk - xSE e8

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    gavin orsay - IEE

    i think he's my fav h.o.c. character. the guinea pig helps.

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    wow, I watched the Pilot. I like Francis; I like him a lot. His way of melding into things, as if invisible, yet quietly manipulating things from a glowing anger in his heart. It's so ... understandable. His idea of revenge makes sense and his choice in women is wonderful. I got either SLE or LIE vibes from him so far; hard to judge just yet.

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    heh, I've watched up to episode 6 and I think Francis fits SLE-Ti much better than a gamma. His ability to deal with and manipulate and manage and rearrange/organize all the people around him is very sociable. But he doesn't do this out of the bonds or connections he makes with people, but out of what kind of usefulness he thinks he can get out of them. He's willing to throw away "friends" and destroy people to get what he wants. He did help the secret service agent, but then used his help to manipulate him. He destroyed that other congressman only so that he could control him. The only exception is his wife, but even she knows Frank's there to keep her life interesting, not have a family and share deep bonds of love. He didn't even seem to mind when he knew she had some kind of affection for that artist. He doesn't value Fi really at all.

    It's a nice contrast to Tony Soprano, who is a lot more reactive and seemed to care so much about his family bonds that it made him kind of stupid and boring (I've typed him LSE). His reactiveness solved one problem, but then created others. At least with Francis, he thinks enough about what he's doing and what's going on to close all the lose ends.

    Frank's really interesting, but kind of sad at the same time. He has a good intellect when it comes to dealing with people, but no sense of morals. I want to like him, but his lack of any genuine kindness is a bit off-putting. He's at least more tolerable than Tony Soprano though; his ambition and dedication to controlling chaos and getting what he wants out of it is admirable to me, while Tony Sopranos' obsession with family values seemed inconsistent with how he treated other people and his reactiveness showed how poor his decision-making was.

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    Most writers (about 25%, I think) for movies, television, and books, are IEI's, and it would be much more likely that an IEI would write about SLE's than have a clear picture of how LIE's act and operate.

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    Resurrecting in light of #FU2016

    Frank and Claire are Victim/Aggressor types, I recognize those themes when I see them. This is SEE/ILI duality.

    *drops mic*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reactance View Post
    heh, I've watched up to episode 6 and I think Francis fits SLE-Ti much better than a gamma. His ability to deal with and manipulate and manage and rearrange/organize all the people around him is very sociable. But he doesn't do this out of the bonds or connections he makes with people, but out of what kind of usefulness he thinks he can get out of them. He's willing to throw away "friends" and destroy people to get what he wants. He did help the secret service agent, but then used his help to manipulate him. He destroyed that other congressman only so that he could control him. The only exception is his wife, but even she knows Frank's there to keep her life interesting, not have a family and share deep bonds of love. He didn't even seem to mind when he knew she had some kind of affection for that artist. He doesn't value Fi really at all.

    It's a nice contrast to Tony Soprano, who is a lot more reactive and seemed to care so much about his family bonds that it made him kind of stupid and boring (I've typed him LSE). His reactiveness solved one problem, but then created others. At least with Francis, he thinks enough about what he's doing and what's going on to close all the lose ends.

    Frank's really interesting, but kind of sad at the same time. He has a good intellect when it comes to dealing with people, but no sense of morals. I want to like him, but his lack of any genuine kindness is a bit off-putting. He's at least more tolerable than Tony Soprano though; his ambition and dedication to controlling chaos and getting what he wants out of it is admirable to me, while Tony Sopranos' obsession with family values seemed inconsistent with how he treated other people and his reactiveness showed how poor his decision-making was.
    Betas are jealous as all hell, I don't see it.

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    strangeling's Avatar
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    k

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    Contra's Avatar
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    Edit: ok finished 1st season. I'll update a little.

    Edit2: into season 2, more edits.

    Just about to get through season 1 of this show. I think it's interesting how there are no real "good guys". I pretty much hate everyone except for Sikorsky and Gillian Cole. Yep. still hate everyone.

    Frank Underwood-LIE

    Claire Underwood- LSI- What a terrible wife too. I imagine she's not even warm to the touch. Probably based on Hilary Clinton, i think.

    Zoe Barnes- LIE- She lives in a dump, she's hyper-motivated, and she plays power games. So i vote for Ni/Se over Si/Ne. I suppose LSE could be possible.

    Peter Russo- SLE- This guy was pretty pathetic. I actually felt bad for him. I kept thinking he is like a lame deer who needs to be put out of its misery

    Christine Gallagher- IEI- Kind of a doe-eyed idiot if you ask me. She turns out to be a sensible person. Actually, no, still kind of a doe-eyed idiot.

    Doug- SLI- the guy really reminds me of Mark Ruffalo.

    Linda- Te ego.

    Vice president- Purposeful Joe Biden copy so LSE

    Adam Galloway- IEI

    Janine Sikorsky- ILI

    Rachel- IEE

    Lucas Goodwin- ESI- could maybe be EII also?

    Remy Danton- INxx, actually I'm thinking LSI at this point.

    Gillian Cole- SEI, i think.

    Raymond Tusk- SLI given a mythical Ni ability- I think he was likely based on Warren Buffett.

    President- Kind of a white obama. ILE (not that obama is ILE)

    President's wife- SEI

    Jackie Sharp- A very dominant SEE

    Gavin Orsay- ILE

    Edward Meechum- ESI

    Catherine Durant- LSE
    Last edited by Contra; 02-09-2016 at 02:55 PM.

  23. #23
    strangeling's Avatar
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    Season 4 -> March 4

    CAN'TWAIT

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    Meechum: Fi-ESI
    Petrov: LSI
    Donald Blythe: Ne-LII
    Leann Harvey: Te-ILI
    Doris: Fi-IEE
    Celia: Fi-EII
    Tom Yates: Ni-ego played by an SLI
    Last edited by suedehead; 06-01-2017 at 12:29 PM.

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    I only watched bits of Season 1 and 2 and I always thought they went with the 'evil' 'machiavellian' LIE trope for him. I thought Enneagram 8 with self preservational instinct back then. I also saw Enneagram 3 typings for him (why not...). I don't really watch the show though... dunno... I only saw some clips from Season 4 today (hence me turning up here).



    And I got angry. That boy had a good house, a good family, the sort I would've killed for, and he didn't even realize it. So I went into the tool shed and I took out an ax. And I said to Walter... "You want to know what it's really like to live at my house?" And I gave that tree a good whack.


    You don't deserve it. You have no idea what it means to have nothing, you don't value what we have achieved. I've had to fight for everything my entire life. Do you know why I kept this? Do you know? Because it's the one time I was proud of my father, because this man, in this moment as despicable as it was, is fighting to survive. He is doing whatever it took and so will I, with or without you. So no I will not have this conversation. I will not indulge you any further.
    Interesting to see what brings out the 'real, heavy reaction' in him. Kinda funny how he is nearly going through the roof and Claire just sits there with folded hands, like a little nun.

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    Frank - SEE
    Claire - ILI
    I definitely think that Claire is ILI. She is the one that keeps Frank on track. He will get caught up in the momentary things and she reminded him what their ultimate goal was.
    It is a bit disconcerting that neither of the two thought of what they would do once they got the presidency. They really value money, power, and glory to the point that they see these things as ideals without really seeing anything else.

    Claire certainly seems like an underdeveloped ILI. I am less sure of Frank's type but SEE seems to fit. He has become very boring over the last few seasons.

    I see the two of them as duals.

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    Will Conway: LSE
    Hannah Conway: EII
    Mark Usher: Ni-LIE
    Jane Davis: Beta, not LSI

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    Cosmic Teapot's Avatar
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    Frank EIE
    Claire LSI


    The common notion that Frank is LIE is wrong. He mostly uses Fe-manipulation tactics and emotional pressure, knows how to read people, predicts their actions. He is able to spontaneously make up great speeches with meaningful pauses, gestures, tone of voice and knows how to use and amplify seemingly personal stories to engage his audience, when he is really just acting. He has an eye for the right words and does not fight with facts and data unlike an LIE would. Instead, Frank works with the audience's emotions - or causes them to have certain emotions.

    Gulenko's EIE description:
    The EIE encompasses and manages a very wide range of emotional states. Dramatic emotions quickly turn into comic ones or interweave together, however, in company of strangers and unfamiliar people he can behave calmly and hold himself with dignity. [...] Expressive in gestures, gaze, intonation, and other emotional expressions. A good actor or speaker. [...] People in his proximity may experience difficulty dealing with his emotional pressuring.
    Stratiyevskaya's EIE description:
    Hamlet – is a director of human emotions, a director of states and moods. To any person the Hamlet will "assign" precisely that state or mood which he considers necessary to assign.



    He respects people who fight, who have integrity and pride, and shows concern for social problems, which indicates Beta. He is very much aware when he is being a hypocrite and doesn't get overwhelmed by the amount of complicated relationships, promises, lies and strategies. LIE's on the other hand, with their weak Fi, are not able to navigate on the same of level human relationships.


    Stratiyevskaya's LIE-ESI Duality:
    LIE's problem lies in the fact that he doesn't see a system in ethical relations that emerge around him. He doesn't sees such patterns. And what he sees, he doesn't believe in blind childishness of his suggestive function (+Fi). Or even worse, he gets so frightened but what he has seen that he panics and like an ostrich hides his head in the sand, leaving himself unprotected from all the sides.
    The LIE himself becomes a victim of manipulation of others [...] The LIE is typically egocentric and easily falls under somebody else's influence [...].
    There is a good reason why they are called "The Experimenter". One of LIE's main goal is efficiency, innovation and progress.

    Stratiyevskaya's LIE description:
    Frequent change of professions is characteristic for them, as well as change of their place of residence: things didn't work out here – they depart for other places, discover new lands, new opportunities. They are "pioneers".
    The LIE likes to earn "big" money ("otherwise, what's the point?"), and enjoys expending it.
    That does not sound like Frank at all. He worked his way up from the son of an alcoholic father who was a farmer, to a congressman, to vice president, to president. The environment he knows best is hierarchy, which indicates aristocracy.

    Money is something that is disposable, and fortunes can be made and lost in a matter of hours. Power, however, does not rely on market forces, and can outlast generations of people.

    -Frank Underwood
    shows aristocracy, emotional pressuring:


    A common reason to type him LIE is his will to be a leader and his intelligence but that does not exclude EIE on any way:

    Stratiyevskaya's EIE description:
    Regardless of the scale on which a representative of this type unravels his activity, whether he is a politician or a low level employee, the EIE with perfection wields his entire arsenal of methods and tools needed to forge a necessary to him public opinion, with the aid of which he then intends to direct the actions of people around him into a specific predetermined course. The creation of a formal or informal groups within an already existing system, the emergence of a new formal or informal leader and the displacement of the existing leadership, the changes within hierarchical layers of the system, the exclusion from the group of those who have interfered with his "rearrangement of forces" – all of this is a sphere of EIE's never ceasing activity, independent of his age, occupation, location, and his current social position.

    ____________________________

    Another popular type for Frank is SEE:

    Stratiyevskaya's SEE description:
    Willful protection of his own interests (and of interests of his "team"), as well as his own priority - are characteristic of the SEE. This is done not for the purpose of direct and merciless suppression, but for maximum freedom of realization of SEE's own sensing potential, for most complete expression his or her bright individuality, for the realization of his or her own ethical purposes and tasks.
    Apart from the fact that SEE's can be manipulative, they are not schemers and have little patience. They don't have such detailed plans fro the future, don't think many steps ahead, don't make negative forecasts and certainly don't philosophize as much as Frank (or at least they don't put as much emphasize on these qualities. Unlike Frank does.). Frank has no interest in protecting his own individuality and his tactics don't include "merciless suppression". We never see Frank wanting approval for his Fi qualities. He wants to leave something for the future. He wants to be immortal.

    It should be noted that in his social initiatives the EIE is very farsighted and prudent. If he has started something, it wasn't by accident - there is always a long-term goal to it, a calculated goal, not just for the goodness of his heart. (What the EIE does from the goodness of his heart he does not demonstrate and advertise to the public [...].)

    _____________________________

    Good example on EIE(Frank) and LSI(Petrov) Duality. Frank explains to Petrov, that there won't be a revolution when he frees just one man. Petrov as LSI with weak Fe needs Franks information because LSI's a prone to paranoia and distrust(compare Stalin, Hillary Clinton) when is comes to predicting people actions.



    Frank and Claire(LSI) Duality:
    Here they are talking about creating fear (Fe) and chaos as a response to a failed attempt at winning peoples hearts.
    Last edited by Cosmic Teapot; 06-01-2017 at 03:23 PM.

  29. #29
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    Frank is SEE & Claire is IEI

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    I don't think I'd type Frank EIE. I think a very good example of an EIE is Governor Conway, and when compared to him, Frank is a much less controlled figure. He's far less poised, he's far less able to turn negative press around by sheer force of charisma. Instead he resorts to elaborate go-arounds that usually involve several layers of subordinates conducting emergency damage control.

    I could easily see SEE for Frank. I'm also not sure why SLE isn't being considered, his manipulations are usually transparent. By the end of season 2, everyone and their dog including the 100% socially oblivious President were onto every aspect of his plan. He also has an "it's not personal, it's strictly business" mentality that's described much more of SLEs than SEEs.

    For the record, I do think "merciless suppression" describes Frank's behavior in a number of instances. He's very good at LBJ-style browbeating, as seen in the teachers' union subplot.
    Last edited by Nanooka; 06-06-2017 at 07:25 PM.
    Maybe, possibly ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/so, 641 tritype
    sLUe|I|

    "If looks could kill they probably will, in games without frontiers, war without tears."

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    LOL@SEE for francis.
    I hope that was constructive.

    Anyway, funny how trends in thinking color people's perceptions. Being a cut-throat businessman makes you SEE or something now (@a la TheRealDonaldTrump typing thread). Well I typed Francis SLE back when I was into Hannibal, but they are uniquely different. LIE seems much better now. Too personally invested over playing an interesting game.

    Blahblahblah Socionics Likes Constructive wall-of-text taking-sides opinions-as-facts - don't care, still going to say what I want.

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    ^Are you going to present an argument, or are you just rambling incoherently?
    Maybe, possibly ILE-Ti
    6w7 sx/so, 641 tritype
    sLUe|I|

    "If looks could kill they probably will, in games without frontiers, war without tears."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanooka View Post
    ^Are you going to present an argument, or are you just rambling incoherently?
    blah blah blah

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    Said it before, ill say it again. Francis is the Ni, Claire is the Se. I'd lean Gamma over Beta. Francis is looking for opportunity, not forecasting danger. Ni+. Claire isn't consolidating power in the structure around her. The structure is imparted from Congress. She's merely being opportunistic and cunning. Se+.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    william conway - LSE
    hannah conway - EII
    mark usher - SLI
    catherine - Fi-ESI
    jane - EII
    leanne - Ti-SLE
    tom yates - Ni-ILI
    seth - Ni-LIE
    tom hammerschmidt - LIE
    brockart - Te-SLI
    aidan - Ne-ILE
    Last edited by strrrng; 06-07-2017 at 01:41 PM.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    It's important to note that IE pairs work in tandem with each other, especially leading + suggestive, so it's not that Se-doms are incapable of forecasting. They just go about it differently than Ni-leads. They put in more "elbow grease", so to speak, to realize their forecasts, but they're no less inclined to that style of thinking. This is why duals (SEE-ILI and SLE-IEI, in this case) are said to have similar goals and worldviews. SEEs being labeled "Politicians" was no accident. That isn't to say that I think Frank is SEE, although he very well may be, I just dislike the faulty reasoning people provide for their anti-SxE stance on Frank. Claire is an enigma. Has that signature IEI gaze but that's probably just the actress's natural facial expression at play. ILI ain't a bad guess though. At the very least, she's an introverted gamma, and Frank's probably an extroverted gamma.

    I'm really curious about Zoe Barnes though. The LII typing seems off to me, but Te-HA makes sense. IEE > SEE, probably.
    awldjkwepierpgokqweølfqøerlkfdaergnhtm¨å¨æ''-we-fqpoeufasdøflthøljwtlhkjrøtlhhhhhhhhhhsapfoeporipr



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