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Thread: Global Warming: What is it? How do we stop it?

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    Default Global Warming: What is it? How do we stop it?

    LOBAL WARMING
    Last edited by lagerdemon; 09-03-2013 at 06:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    LOBAL WARMING
    Wear an ice cap

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    Move the sun further away.

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    Extermination of USA's citizens should be enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    This pretty much sums it up
    Slapping people all the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    Extermination of USA's citizens should be enough.
    How would that affect anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    How would that affect anything?
    CO2 emissions would drastically decrease.


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    china is the biggest consumer and polluter in the world, so why not china?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    china is the biggest consumer and polluter in the world, so why not china?
    why not both?


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    Population count
    China 1,359,710,000
    United States 316,584,000
    therefore USA emit more CO2 per person than China

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    why not both?

    That's what I was getting at

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    Population count
    China 1,359,710,000
    United States 316,584,000
    therefore USA emit more CO2 per person than China
    So the environment is affected by per capita C02 emissions and not total? Good to know.

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    Why are we using 5 year old statistics to make this EXTREMELY CRITICALLY IMPORTANT decision?

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    it's cheaper genocide wise

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    Heard Gammas burn without emitting CO2, so it is quite the environmentally friendly investment.

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    Meh, Lindzen has been yammering on for decades. He's a consultant for coal and oil companies and is remunerated in the thousands/hr for his services. He has a huge incentive to perpetuate the existing mechanisms of production and appropriation, while I'm not sure what incentive "government" has to propagate the concept of climate change, when Lindzen readily admits it "has been costly to society, and it has the potential to be vastly more costly."
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    That cuts both ways just the same, with pro-globalwarming research receiving funding from advocacy groups & the federal govt. Nobody on either side is fiscally unbiased.

    Ultimately that doesn't really matter though. Either someone's producing good science or they're not, regardless of where the money's coming from. And ultimately a plurality of competing interests is better for all of us.
    True, and Lindzen is thankfully not a climate change denier. He simply claims that we shouldn't give as much of a shit about greenhouse gases and their incipient effects on the atmosphere... and, by extension, allow companies to ride roughshod over environmental regulations (which, according to him, shouldn't even exists in the first place). Does that not seem a bit suspect?

    But I would have to say, anyone who believes the money flowing towards research supporting climate change is comparable to the money flowing in the other direction (and tempting the hands of lawmakers in Washington) is hopelessly naive to what is happening in this city. Researchers make a pittance. If you want to be rich, become an oil exec or, failing that, a politician (or, failing that, a lobbyist).

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    I believe he was referring to policies implemented due to global warming alarmism that've been costly to society.
    That's what I understood him to mean. What I was asking is, why would the government insist on enacting such policies if they are costly to society (and also are politically quite risky -- environmental regulation is not popular with the people who fund these people's campaigns)? Why would they shoot themselves in the foot?
    Last edited by Animal; 09-04-2013 at 03:33 AM.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    I support global warming!
    I'd rather be hot than cold.

    When my dad was a kid, it was a "global freezing" scare. In 50 years, it'll be global freezing again.
    This is like freaking out every Spring and Autumn because of the dramatic weather change on its way.
    Enjoy the heat.

    If I were one of those people who are annoyed by drama, I'd suggest an end to it. Actually...yeah, end it. This is a lame plot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Itsa disaster

    *flails arms around wildly*









    Owait. it isn't ):

    SOMEONE STOP THESE STATISTICS AND TRENDs, THEY ARE ALL WRONG AND BAD AND WRONG! FOR REASONs.

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    UPDATE: It was really hot today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Itsa disaster

    *flails arms around wildly*

    Didn't know the earth was hospitable to human life and other moderately-sized, land-dwelling, warm-blooded creatures prior to the Cenozoic Era.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    UPDATE: It was really hot today.
    Here, too.
    Aren't you glad you didn't have to wear an overcoat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Here, too.
    Aren't you glad you didn't have to wear an overcoat?
    Psshhhhh. I live in the south. I don't even own an overcoat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    Psshhhhh. I live in the south. I don't even own an overcoat.
    I live in the south, too. That doesn't mean it doesn't sometimes get below freezing in the winter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    Didn't know the earth was hospitable to human life and other moderately-sized, land-dwelling, warm-blooded creatures prior to the Cenozoic Era.
    Jurassic anyone?

    Don't be all in 'cold mode' and complain its getting hotterer.

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    its one thing to raise questions, but i don't get how someone who hasn't got the education and hasn't put in a comparable amount of time and energy working on the issue as a scientist could be so rabidly confident about whether it's an issue. and when the general consensus in the scientific community is that it is real it just seems like politics to insist it isn't. not that i know. but the next time i hear somebody say, "man its chilly today, so much for global warming," i'm going to suffocate them with a weather balloon.

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    It's so cold today.

    Fucking globularist warmongers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    However, there has been no rise in global temperatures for the past 15 years.
    Global warming isn't about the rise of temperatures. Climate and weather are two distinct 'things.'

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    Temperature isn't weather

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    Global warming cannot be stopped now. It's already to late. Might as well grieve for the losses and move on.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    its one thing to raise questions, but i don't get how someone who hasn't got the education and hasn't put in a comparable amount of time and energy working on the issue as a scientist could be so rabidly confident about whether it's an issue. and when the general consensus in the scientific community is that it is real it just seems like politics to insist it isn't. not that i know. but the next time i hear somebody say, "man its chilly today, so much for global warming," i'm going to suffocate them with a weather balloon.
    Lungs, the thing is, most scientists haven't either. simple answer to pollution(ocean acidification, greenhouse gases, etc) problem: REDUCE THE POPULATION. If the population dramatically decreases(specifically the EU, US and China), there will be less consumers, less production, less pollution while still maintaining a high(for EU, US) quality of life or rising(China, rest of the world) quality of life. Otherwise you'll have to wait for technology to catch up with manufacturing, transportation, heating, food production. I don't care if global warming is real or not, and I refuse to use it synonymously with climate change, all I care about is the destruction of non-human nature(wetlands, oceans, forests, etc). I hate strip malls and golf courses as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to bite my nails, wet my pants and cower in fear every time a scientist on tv warns of GLOBAL CATASTROPHE. There's nothing you can legally do about, so why worry so much? Can you name a country that has reduced greenhouse gas emissions? Do you know how many years governments have been promising to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

    @ bolded: basically that paragraph was a longer way of saying that global warming is more of a political issue than a scientific issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Yeah, but I don't think anyone denies climate flux; that'd be like someone arguing there's never been an ice age.

    AFAIK he also acknowledges Greenhouse Effect Theory, and that CO2 is a contributing gas. But merely expresses caution that, when factored into the complex dynamical context of all (both known & potentially unknown) interdependent climatological variables, CO2 may not be a determinant cause of temperature increase to the extent typically postulated.
    That position sounds quite reasonable. The thing is, Lindzen's peers have continually claimed that he ignores the science. Again, I didn't major in atmospheric physics, nor have I any extensive firsthand research experience in the field. But everything I've read and the actual scientists I've interacted with who have had that experience (admittedly, many of my friends and the majority of scientists who works in this area work for places like NIH and NIST) support the reality of ACC.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    That's not logical by extension though, nor have I seen him call for comprehensively uprooting all enviro-regulation.

    Denouncing policies based on global warming alarmism seems perfectly fine. But nobody's going to argue against a need for reasonable regulations towards minimizing pollution, limiting destruction of nature, etc.
    I don't really believe they are alarmist. Unfortunately, the people I have known who do think it's alarmist are also against reasonable environmental regulation. I may have confused Lindzen for a second with James Inhofe and his ilk. Such people exist and the tenor of their rhetoric seems more alarmist to me than most of the climate change supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Well, consider that big energy/oil corporations likely don't mind so much—and are likely behind many AGW-policymaking initiatives themselves. As they can fiscally shoulder greater regulatory burdens which otherwise drive their smaller (or less politically-connected) competitors out of business—as well as erect larger market barriers to keep new entrants out; more onerously regulated business environments tend to be easier to monopolize for such obvious reasons. Additionally some firms may hold key patents on certain 'green-friendly' products/methods that yield them further market leverage, for sake of these designs being difficult for others to develop legally competitive analogues to.

    Realistically, given that consumers will largely be forced by necessity to absorb any resultant price hikes anyway, I wouldn't expect big-oil execs to care too much (up to a point) about keeping out govt meddling (a govt that also subsidizes them).

    Also some well-entrenched politicians, due to the nature of their own constituencies, may have little to fear from any potential blowback by energy/oil magnates; thus said magnates won't be able to buy off every single Congressperson—some will invariably be siphoned off by environmental lobbyists, or venture speculators looking to get richer off govt subsidies for 'green projects' (as we've already seen happen), etc.

    And then there's the role of incentives present within govt regulatory agencies to expand themselves via inventing new regs, etc; many measures explicitly targeted at global warming don't actually come from Congress, but rather from apppointed bureaucrats whom can't be bribed w/ things like campaign donations.

    So on, so forth, ad nauseam. Many different venues in the byzantine plexus of big-govt/big-biz incest can enable such policies to worm their way thru, albeit sometimes counterintuitively.

    I think there's something as well to the idea of govts using AGW as a justificatory pretext for ever-granular levels of socioeconomic control, in pursuit of ivory tower ideas for the 'perfect society'—particularly as religion continues to be supplanted by science. Disbanding religion being a great thing for humans ofc, but also invites looming dangers of Scientism as a surrogate pseudo-religion for spinning eschatological nonsense.
    I'm not sure I buy this behavioral economics (however eloquently stated ) when the actual behavior of these companies so vehemently moves in the opposite direction.

    That last paragraph reads to me like a hermeneutic slight-of-hand by which any appeal to science is rhetoricized as blind religion, which I think is highly disingenuous. Yes, Scientism exists, but in the presence of an actual scientific dialectic wherein there really is compelling evidence to move towards policy that curtails the release of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, the use of such a term is rather inapropos. You could argue that science operates under an ideology of positivism. I've seen many people make that claim in philosophical circles, but not in a political or policy context, which must operate on the basis of some pragmatism.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Jurassic anyone?

    Don't be all in 'cold mode' and complain its getting hotterer.
    The mammals of the Jurassic and Triassic Eras were quite a bit smaller and barely resembled mammals as we know them today. Again, what human-like or other moderately-sized, land-dwelling, warm-blooded creatures would have thrived under the conditions of those eras prior to the Cenozoic? There are definitely ideal conditions under which creatures with certain adaptations thrive. There's a reason dinosaurs, these huge, cold-blooded creatures, thrived in the Mesozoic Era. And we humans have adapted to the present biosphere. I'm not sure how useful retroprojections are. It won't always be thus. There will come a time when the conditions of this planet prove inhospitable. But there's no sense in tempting fate.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Animal View Post
    The mammals of the Jurassic and Triassic Eras were quite a bit smaller and barely resembled mammals as we know them today. Again, what human-like or other moderately-sized, land-dwelling, warm-blooded creatures would have thrived under the conditions of those eras prior to the Cenozoic? There are definitely ideal conditions under which creatures with certain adaptations thrive. There's a reason dinosaurs, these huge, cold-blooded creatures, thrived in the Mesozoic Era. And we humans have adapted to the present biosphere. I'm not sure how useful retroprojections are. It won't always be thus. There will come a time when the conditions of this planet prove inhospitable. But there's no sense in tempting fate.
    Your thesis ignores the level of changes in CO2 and temperature swings during those periods which acknowledge that it is not as significant a problem as the people dost protest; in the geological record these did not trigger massive (or even minor) extinction events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    but the next time i hear somebody say, "man its chilly today, so much for global warming," i'm going to suffocate them with a weather balloon.
    I'd advocate taking it a few steps further and killing any moron who makes snide strawman arguments like that. Not just about global warming.

    Anyway, global warming is happening and Man has a significant contribution to the warming due to increased CO2, water vapor and methane emissions. This is pretty much as much a scientific fact as possible. The only people left who deny this are people with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and conspiracy theorists who don't trust scientists to begin with.

    That said, Kyoto was stupid, trading carbon credits is a waste of time and everyone is still just talking about global warming rather than doing anything about it because it's not an enormous problem. One should look up the accompanying global cooling that supposedly follows global warming due to decreases in sunlight reaching the Earth's surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Your thesis ignores the level of changes in CO2 and temperature swings during those periods which acknowledge that it is not as significant a problem as the people dost protest; in the geological record these did not trigger massive (or even minor) extinction events.
    Those retroprojections are problematic and the earth was a very different planet back then. At any rate, I'm not really as concerned about global warming (as in temperature fluctuations) as its sister issues: air and water pollution and deforestation. I think those are far more immediate dangers than greenhouse gases, per se.

    Anyway, I wish heath were still here. He knew stuff about this.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

  39. #39
    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    It depends. "Air and water" pollution often go hand-in-hand with global warming as they're all negative by-products of human activity. To be honest, the "Global Warming Alarmists" who were predicting a catastrophic end to the world did more harm to the hypothesis than anything they've accomplished.

    So yes, don't believe the doom-and-gloom "pundits" as they have just as much something to gain as the establishment whom they're trying to tear down.

    Besides, if the environment and the creatures living within it weren't adaptable we'd all be dead by now, wouldn't we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Besides, if the environment and the creatures living within it weren't adaptable we'd all be dead by now, wouldn't we?
    Would we? Lul.

    Complete and utter bollocks, for there wouldn't be any 'we' in the first place. Every organism after adaptation to the new environment is not the same organism - it is something new. Just as I would acquire you and kick you in the arse so hard you would leave the orbit and land on the surface of the Sun, you would end up a new organism, completely different from what you were before, providing you would survive of course.

    This is the reason you have to have numbers to survive, not one, not two, not three but millions, to survive in a hostile environment. Numbers secure survival, and if one or twenty die trying to adapt, maybe the twenty first is going to make it and adapt...

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