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Thread: Mysticism

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    Default Mysticism

    For this thread, I'm using this definition from wikipedia:
    Mysticism
    is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on practices intended to nurture those experiences. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.
    I really connected with someone recently. He considered himself a mystic, trying to gather truth through intuition and all that. I think where we really clicked was my opinion on science being only one source of knowledge, and one too prone to corruption by interests at that. I'm surrounded by academics, so it was comforting having someone I didn't have to front an acceptable belief system to. In general, it was just really cool and interesting finding another light in the darkness of people who don't really "get" the things you hold dear.

    Anyway, it got me thinking, mysticism is inherently an abstract, Intuitive kind of a field of interest, and I'm wondering what people's opinions are on whether it "belongs" to or , or whether these elements give their own unique ways of relating to mystical insights.

    scribbles in the dark

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    Experience of such things have lower priority than understanding them for me. Luckily status of science is not required - philosophy is good enough for me.

    "IEIs are very imaginative people who tend to be more mystical and dreamy" - wikisocion

    Ni is a field one can be interactive an one with. Ne is static bound object. Parcel of insight to unpack is not exactly a "communion and identity". While you can feed Ne information it still feels like something that comes to you from outside.
    Then there is the Fe which is very much experiential as apposed to conceptual, and which is what is in the ego block with Ni in IEI.

    Both NeTi and TiNe fish for explicit information, though ILE-Ne less so. IEI is double implicit.

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    Sandy's back *glomps*

    Breakfast time. I will reply to this later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post

    I really connected with someone recently. He considered himself a mystic, prone to corruption, so it was comforting having someone I didn't have to front an acceptable belief system to. In general, it was just really cool and interesting finding another light in the darkness of people who don't really "get" the things you hold dear.

    Mysticism is silly. People who readily believe in anything that some hot dude whispers into their ear are, oh, actually, you know what? cult, thats what this is, is he a scientologist?


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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post
    Whether it "belongs" to or , or whether these elements give their own unique ways of relating to mystical insights.
    Mysticism is a weird one which often overlaps with reading minor signs and converging the mind on an idea which embodies some future event or some universal truth.

    I believe both Ne/Ni require some use to have sufficient focus on visualizing events, so position 1 Ne/Ni is where it's at; however those with Ni on top tend to be better at achieving realistic and believable convergence.

    The accuracy is highly debatable regardless of believability.

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    Yeah, I dont think either introverted or extroverted intuition holds a monopoly on mysticism. Ones just more urgency or timeliness based and the other more potential seeking based. Compare Nostrodomus to G. Bruno or A. Crowley. Two very different ways of approaching the world, but both seething with mysticism.

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    I'm often interesting in things like the occult and various forms of mysticism. I have talked to a pagan witch once about what particular rituals and things she does. There is apparently a lot of differing themes within different religions of the same thing. I suppose I also asked about practicing these things without a backed up religious theme to it. She mentioned something along the lines of it having not a flavour to it. I suppose it's like plain rice without anything to flavour it.

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    Mysticism sometimes substitutes religion for a base of science right at the edges of where science is not able to explain particular phenomena. But its shakey territory that can easily go off the deep end. There's a pretty healthy market for the type of stuff Ken Wilbur writes.

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    Definition 1 of "mystic" says, "involving or characterized by esoteric, otherworldly, or symbolic practices or content, as certain religious ceremonies and art; spiritually significant; ethereal." Definition 2 says, "of the nature of or pertaining to mysteries known only to the initiated." The occult is mentioned in definition 3. It's not right to assume the third definition right away; that's not how the dictionary was arranged. Mysticism is not necessarily evil; it's just weird. Vague, spiritual, secretive, heavenly.

    Polikujm has related to this word before. I got upset because I, too, assumed the third definition. I'm sure it's something introverted and irrelevant to me, but it doesn't belong to any specific quadra(s); EIIs have claim to it too.
    Actually, in Lenore Thompson correlated mysticism to . So maybe it's IEIs who don't have a claim to it.
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    To clarify, I was talking specifically in relation to The Grain of Song of Sand, the definition of mysticism he brought, my opinion on his type and what mysticism means to him while possibly exaggeratedly contrasting it to what I think is general to Alpha NT's which is relevant to his search of type.

    I definitely don't limit mysticism to IEI's. Now that EII are mentioned, it is the second type that is double implicit intuitive introvert.

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    Modern mysticism of the 18th, 19th, 20th centuries is as fascinating and plastic as ancient mythology and religion-proper; although, like most human inventions, there are so many flaws - inconsistencies and inconceivable fantasies - that making complete sense of it is futile: it doesn't make sense. It's fun to play with and steal from, of course. It certainly adds to the human experience and can be a source of fringe knowledge. I've picked up plenty of tricks and solid advice of all kinds from Crowley, Waite, Heraclitus, Plato, Leary, R.A. Wilson and others. Intuition only gets you so far; plenty of mystics understood that intuition without reason is fruitless. I'm an agnostic atheist, but the transcendentalism of the 19th century is very close to my own personal idea of spirituality. It's peppered throughout with a tinge of mysticism. I'm really high right now, but I think I'm being clear. Basically what I'm saying is: if you're going to be a fucking mystic, don't be one of those retarded mystics who believes everything that every religion in the history of humanity ever invented.

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    Mystics are frauds. It's as simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Mystics are frauds. It's as simple as that.
    By "mystics" you're referring to whom or what exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPathWhiteClouds View Post
    By "mystics" you're referring to whom or what exactly?
    Do you believe in astrology?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Do you believe in astrology?
    No. Not at all. My question stemmed from the fact that many things can be called "mysticism" (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism). Im just curious to see who and what specifically you are referring to as the "frauds".

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPathWhiteClouds View Post
    No. Not at all. My question stemmed from the fact that many things can be called "mysticism" (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism). Im just curious to see who and what specifically you are referring to as the "frauds".
    Anyone who professes to know mystical knowledge from an unknowable and unobservable behavior. Those who profess to be able to predict the future by reading a few tea leaves, people who sell diving rods, those who can cure cancer through the power of faith, etc.

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    In relation to the whole EII claim on mysticism, I can confirm that my beliefs were absolutely rife with it at one point. Fortunately, those beliefs were challenged continually with objective logic and I snapped the fuck out of it, and am now an atheist. I kinda hate seeing people orient so much of their life towards completely unobserved crackpot mysticism when their efforts in those fields could be so much better spent elsewhere. Of course there are some things to take from the general ideas behind them, but that only goes so far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grain of a Song of Sand View Post
    Anyway, it got me thinking, mysticism is inherently an abstract, Intuitive kind of a field of interest, and I'm wondering what people's opinions are on whether it "belongs" to or , or whether these elements give their own unique ways of relating to mystical insights.
    I don't think it "belongs" to either element, but as you have suggested there may be different styles of approaching the topic that depend on one's IM preferences.

    An interest in mysticism and mythology has also been related to the enneagram, in particular to the mental predilection of type 9, that at times is mistaken for Ni. This was posted over at enneagram institute boards by someone who types as a nine and who himself draws upon mysticism and mythology in discussions of enneagram:


    Regarding Jung:

    Dreams, mythology and symbols are all once-removed from reality; they're representations of real life. On the other hand, 7w8s are interested in taking a big bite out of real life. For a 7w8, there's not enough juicy meat on the bone in the world of symbols.

    Mythology perfectly clicks with the 9w1's version of "abstracting from reality", as Riso puts it. The 9 idealizes and the 1-wing is searching for 'the ideal'. This makes for a fascination with the up-and-away denizens of Olympus. The gods are not people, so there's no risk of conflict - they're simply ideas or people as streamlined perfected concepts. This all taps the 9's brand of 'autism' - an inner sanctum where lust and violence can occur in a safe contained space (far away from reality), as well as half-animal creatures frolicking in ever-sunny meadows.

    There's nothing for a 7w8 to experience in all of that world.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterNi View Post
    Anyone who professes to know mystical knowledge from an unknowable and unobservable behavior. Those who profess to be able to predict the future by reading a few tea leaves, people who sell diving rods, those who can cure cancer through the power of faith, etc.
    I agree with that statement. But I think there are things that are described as mysticism that aren't "fraudelent" per se, and actually can have benefitial purposes given the context. E.g. christian and islamic mystical traditions (sufism, gnosticism, kabbalah) can be seen as reactions against fundamentalist, bureaucratic traditions that took the focus off of internal transformation and personal relationship with the Divine (as distinct from relationship worldly spiritual authority). The founders of those mystical traditions in that sense IMO aren't frauds but rather people that took the initiative to fight against what they saw as less and less meaninful to them as fought to bring personal relevance to the larger traditions they believed in.

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