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Thread: valuing Fe

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    Default valuing Fe

    Do you think having people read this is a good way to distinguish between alpha/beta and gamma/delta? http://socionics.us/theory/be.shtml If they can relate to it strongly or find that it describes the type of people they are most comfortable with, they value Fe. If not, then they don't. Seems like it would be a better way to positively identify an alpha or beta than gamma or delta.
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    I prefer to use Jung's own descriptions of and for that.

    I'm not sure if all Alphas and Betas - especially INTjs and ISTjs - will make the distinction and identify with as per Rick's description, but I guess we'd have to ask them.

    I think that some of the best explanations of the distinction of and can be found in Herzy's descriptions of PoLR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    hmmm I never read that thread. maybe I should.
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    it's kinda long... would you mind quoting the part you're specifically refering to in here?
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    Right - -

    Just as it's hard for me to hate people, it's also very hard for me to love people. Besides my immediate family, I have never loved anyone. The closest I have ever came to loving someone (but never did) was towards my IEI friend, as well as another SLE, simply because we understood each other so well. Both were guys. Otherwise, my "neutrality mechanism" begins to kick in again. With people I consider friends, I joke around with, play sports with, party with, and talk with them. The catch is, that once they move out of my life for a short while, I tend to forget about them, and get new replacement friends. I have lost contact with tons of people, as much as I don't want that to happen. They become neutral again, just like any people whom I actually dislike. It is very hard for me to establish close relationships, and when I do, it takes an extremely long time for me to actually feel anything towards that person.
    I could use all the I want, and that creates a happy-effect on the people I talk with. However, I rarely actually feel the things that I show outwardly. One way I notice this is when my ESI mom introduces me to one of her friends, I smile until my jaw gets tired, do the hand-shaking, high voice, pleasant language, etc. It gives my mom and her friends what they're looking for me to do. However, in reality, I don't really give a shit! It's sort of a pseudo-feeling; I can trick myself into believing that I care and feel the same thing that I'm expressing about whatever I'm doing the to, but that soon passes. This often times takes place when I'm trying to be polite, during social situations and such.
    One thing I'd like to clear up: the thing about "not giving a shit" isn't quite as harsh as i may have made it sound like. My rough translation of that would be that I sort of care at the moment, but once it's done, it's done, and I don't really think about it again. I am actually not incapable of feeling
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I can relate to most of what she said... but I don't value Fe. I think she was describing weak Fi, which isn't exclusive to alpha and beta. Anyone who doesn't have Fe in their ego block would prolly say the same about how they use Fe as well (eh, maybe not IxTps... not sure on that one).

    Herzy, what do you think when you read the above article that Rick wrote?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I can relate to most of what she said... but I don't value Fe. I think she was describing weak Fi, which isn't exclusive to alpha and beta.
    She was describing not only weak but also how she then has few problems using . Personally I relate to very little of what she wrote.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I think there's a lot more pressure on females when it comes to Fi and Fe, not only because of society's expectations of us, but also because of dealing with men's bullshit too. Once in a while people would ask me why I don't go out any more... have you ever seen what happens when a woman walks into a bar or club by herself? Granted, it's a meat market... let's use a different example... say... work. YOU'D THINK IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE TO JUST WORK FOR FUCKING JOB. JUST COME TO WORK, DO YOUR JOB WELL, AND GO HOME... NO BULLSHIT. >: |

    okay, I'm done now
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    Default Joy

    There is no need to feel "done". I find this topic a bit complex to diagest it and to give a quick respond. It is theoretical and you ask questions also about quadras not just Fe and Fi: too many things in one pot for consideration. I looked through evrything and not sure where to start. I did not quite grasp how your last post relates to what has been said before.

    I think it is good that Rick wrote an article on Fe types as he tries to summarise info and show types from a different perspective. He also mentiones blocks. Basically what he started could be continued. he started to describe Fe types from Ego block/Ego types and he also uses analysis. It is very much in line with model B. I do not see why other forum members could not express their opinion in an article about other Ego types or Superego types or Superid types or ID types. But this needs very careful consideration and discussion because interpretation by different types may differ to a degree. I would personally start not from Fe types but rather consider the differences between Block types. This diferences is closdely associated with quadras and some of the work in this direction has been already started in the Article about quadras by Gulenko. The last input by Smilingeyes still awaits further consideration and analysis.

    So far your thread, Joy, touched upon Fe types from Ego block and Expat brought into very interesting contribution by Herzi. As far as I understood Herzi is female and ESTP (Id block)?

    I see your topic could be developed into a few directions:

    1. If you consider types by base functions it is a good to start from descriptions of qualities of this function. For exapmle : rationality, extraversion, belonging to Ego block. These qualities should be similar for two types in question. It is possible then to consider differences between Fe types by dicussing creative functions but ...it can be more complex. You also need Fe types to take part in this dicrussion if we want to be more objective.

    2. The Fe types as ego types will differ from Te types. Model B suggests the conflict within any cell and building block of a psyche. Expat said he does not relate to what Herzi said and to what Rick said. He is the one from Te types who shares so many qualities of Fe types and is in the same time in opposition to them. In what way Te types are different from Fe types, Expat? Where is the conflict here? Fe and Te types can only work smoothly at a distance? I believe the success of their cooperation will be when balanced other wise they can pull each other into different directions but i am more interested to understand the conflict.

    3. Fe types can be discussed in relation to Fi types.

    If we look at it all step by step we may come to critically consider Rick's article and be able to understand it better. Socioinics has got lots of knowledge/articles which needs to be related together in order to make sense to each and everyone of us.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    okay, I'll level

    I think Rick's description of Fe types was good and easy to read. Perhaps it's not as "accurate" as Jung's description of functions, but it's something that anyone could relate to. We all know many people like that, and there is nothing ambigious about his description at all. And it is also not too long.

    The reason I bring this up is because I think that Alpha and Beta logical types would say "Oh yeah, I like being around many people like that" where as Gamma and Delta logical types... well, imo people like that are tiring at best.

    I'll break up the article and comment on my opinions of people like that.

    You may think your happiness or discouragement is well concealed and invisible to those around you, but it is all in plain view to types, who directly observe your external self-expression and draw conclusions from it about what's happening inside of you, what you are experiencing, how well you fit into the emotional context of the situation, whether you like or dislike what is going on, and what you may feel like doing next, etc. Each unusual intonation or gesture, each hint of irritation in our voice, each awkward pause, each chuckle or sudden change of expression sends a extraverted ethics signal to other people.
    I am very uncomfortable around people like that. If I want people to know how I feel about something, I will make it known. STOP TRYING TO READ ME. It's rude.

    Slightly unrelated, if for whatever reason I feel the need to oblige and offer external signals about what's going on inside me, I feel resentful.

    Some types — particularly ILI and SLI (with emotive ethics as their fourth function) consciously try to send as few signals of this kind as possible — and are usually successful. This makes ESEs and EIEs (with emotive ethics as their first function) mistrustful and unsure of themselves, since they have too little information to go by in their interaction with such people.
    I definitely do that.

    Four types — ESE and EIE, and also SEI and IEI — have extraverted ethics in their ego block and can be said to be highly aware of (have control over) their external self-expression. They are able to consciously stick out in the way they say things or express their internal state and feel confident drawing attention to their , whether or not it matches the sentiments of the group at the moment. They are comfortable being more animated than others in a situation or displaying emotions that don't fit in with those of other people.
    People like that often appear childish to me, even when they are not going ever board with the . At best, they're someone who it is exhausting to be around and I don't feel like I can get very close too.

    They use their own expressiveness to guide other people's internal experiences and help them experience a wider range of passions and more intense feelings.
    leave me alone, please. Your attempts at manipulation, no matter how good natured, invariably make me distrustful. I can't really let my gaurd down.

    types are people of passion. Their feelings of love and admiration, and of disgust and hatred, are "full-blown."
    If I felt like seeing a drama, I'd go buy a ticket.

    types like to discuss these passions and to analyze and discuss their own and others' feelings — not necessarily to change them, but more to bring them out in the open and understand them in order to base one's actions on one's true passions.
    No No No No No No No. This is about as rude and invasive as a person can be.


    types strive for extraverted ethics integrity, just as every type strives to make his base function the conscious foundation of his existence. types like to help others talk about and come to terms with their passions (strong inner sentiments) and especially enjoy it when types help structure their feelings and their causes and draw logical conclusions from them. This "structuring" does not at all have to involve a sort of "psychoanalysis session," but usually occurs spontaneously as the introverted logic type responds to the extraverted ethics type's sentiments by putting them into categories and treating them as subjects worthy of logical analysis.
    Okay... I do do that quite a bit. Sometimes I call it babysitting (no, I'm not talking about children). Sometimes I do it because I feel like I should be kind. It usually only takes 10 minutes or so to totally turn them around. Then I want to go hang out by myself for a while. I don't know if it's that I use to do this or not. It seems more like counter-.

    Why is considered a rational element? Because the forms of emotional expressions described above are all discrete — an intonation here, a gesture there, a cough here, a sudden frown there. EIEs and ESEs often seem abrupt because they constantly send out these discrete signals, without smooth transitions between them.
    Yes, and I try my best not to give any evidence that I notice.

    Dominant at the group level is related to collective emotional experiences and serves to bind and unite people. When extraverted ethics is at the forefront, the group is in emotional sync. People actively and externally express the group sentiments and emotional state of the moment — for example, by sharing thoughts, experiences, and stories with uncommon animation or artisticism or by mirroring group emotions (whether positive or negative) on their faces and in their body language. In this state, the collective focus is on the external mode of expression of thoughts and feelings — not on their content, sensibility, or usefulness.
    In situations like that, I just sort of slink out of the conversation and ignore what's going on. If something important is being discussed and I don't have that liberty, I attempt to bring people back on target.
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    That's why I'm really curious to know how Alpha and Beta logical types respond to reading that article.
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    .

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    OK Joy, my reaction to Fe is simple.

    I find it fascinating and even pleasent at first glance, but find it overwhelming quickly and it overstimulates me easily.

    Like staring into the sun.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    "Fe" does not bother me directly. What I have a distaste for is "borrowed values" that really make no sense at all (as in, sometimes they contradict each other).

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    No one here has annoyed me with Fe. It's the irl people that make me uncomfortable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    No one here has annoyed me with Fe. It's the irl people that make me uncomfortable.
    What exactly do you mean by that? That you are annoyed that people happen to pick up on the signals you inadvertently send? If you've made a mistake in not covering up something, why are you upset with THEM for picking up on it?

    Personally, I get annoyed with myself when someone catches something I attempted to cover. I just figure i'm a bad "liar".

    I find, though, that I get more annoyed when someone claims to have caught a signal which in no way could have been sent...because I cannot find any possible way that their "interpretation" of it could fit. Mostly, this type of thing comes from people who've convinced themselves that they can read people. I mean...if they are unwilling to verify their interpretations with reality, or are unwilling to consider that they may be mistaken....then aren't they just deluding themselves?
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    It's when people try to tell me that I "think too much with my head instead of my heart" and similar bullshit, and when people try to tell me how I feel (I HATE that!) or why I did something. It's just as much, however, when people try to use Fe to manipulate me (even if it's good natured).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi
    So what can I do? I cannot simply decide what is or is not apparent to my senses.
    .
    I practiced that for a long time, its' not that hard, really. That is how counter intelligence operatives function whne they hunt the double agents. You have to ignore reality because the enemy is constantly testing your perceptions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    It's when people try to tell me that I "think too much with my head instead of my heart" and similar bullshit, and when people try to tell me how I feel (I HATE that!) or why I did something. It's just as much, however, when people try to use Fe to manipulate me (even if it's good natured).
    Comments such as "you think with your head too much" and "you feel X" or "you did Y for Z reason"...that's a people thing, not an Fe thing. Just because a person says those kinds of comments, does not mean that they have Fe in the ego block. Also, just because a person has Fe in the ego block does not mean that they will say those kinds of things.

    I don't understand what you mean when you say "when people try to use Fe to manipulate me". Do you mean that people point out the signals that "gave you away"? Like..."you're eye blinked when you said this, that means you are lying". Is this what you mean? Noticing the blinking eye and associating it with lying...i suppose that could be how some people might use Fe information. Could you give a couple of classic examples from your experiences?
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    "It's when people try to tell me that I "think too much with my head instead of my heart" and similar bullshit, and when people try to tell me how I feel (I HATE that!) or why I did something. It's just as much, however, when people try to use Fe to manipulate me (even if it's good natured)."

    How about when people use Fi to manipulate you? You don't hate that?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "

    How about when people use Fi to manipulate you? You don't hate that?
    How does that work?
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    "How does that work?"

    They often give you the silent treatment or become morally indignant.

    That is, those are the negative forms of manipulation they use when they're pissed off.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    I suppose we could go on about how Ti people manipulate...oh, and Te people. But wouldn't all this just bring us back around to people themselves being manipulative and not types nor functions?

    *sigh*

    But then, I don't think manipulation is a bad thing in and of itself. Basically, it's influencing someone. I can be positively influenced...and I can be negatively influenced. I'd much rather be positively influenced. Sometimes, you've just gotta train people who want to influence...to influence positively. But then, that would be influencing them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I suppose we could go on about how Ti people manipulate...oh, and Te people. But wouldn't all this just bring us back around to people themselves being manipulative and not types nor functions?
    Thats' much harder, its' mainly convincing that T people do because one is conscious of what is happening, F people tend to "convinve" you without your knowledge or agreement, hence manipulation.

    If you disagree, examples would be helpful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I suppose we could go on about how Ti people manipulate...oh, and Te people. But wouldn't all this just bring us back around to people themselves being manipulative and not types nor functions?
    Thats' much harder, its' mainly convincing that T people do because one is conscious of what is happening, F people tend to "convinve" you without your knowledge or agreement, hence manipulation.

    If you disagree, examples would be helpful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I suppose we could go on about how Ti people manipulate...oh, and Te people. But wouldn't all this just bring us back around to people themselves being manipulative and not types nor functions?
    Thats' much harder, its' mainly convincing that T people do because one is conscious of what is happening, F people tend to "convinve" you without your knowledge or agreement, hence manipulation.

    If you disagree, examples would be helpful.
    What a shame now that i had deleted the copies of those letters you sent to that one girl you kept bitching about.
    Well you took one of my ideas: that all types CAN POTENETIALLY be negative and manipuilative and used as if it was common knowledge when it took mea looong time to fully comprehend. But that's ok
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kioshi
    I suppose trying to inspire confidence can be interpreted as manipulative. It does get me what I want. But what I want is for people to act freely around me. If people want to worry, then they should feel free to worry. I can imagine this worrying an INFp. But I've long since given up trying to deal with people's irrational fears.

    Dio: If there is an increasing delay in people's reactions, then there is an increasing delay in people's reactions. I can't change the fact that I am aware of this. But I can choose to ignore it. Of course, I'm not sure ignoring people will make them any less uncomfortable.
    HI KIoshi, I have read your posts with GREAT interests always, thank you for them.

    I was just making a theoretical point: that it is possible to change one's perceptions voluntarily in such a way as to not be consciously aware of certain aspects of reality. Its' not something I recommend, just a point.

    cheers

    What type do you think is Japanese society?
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    The things such like manupilating is not always type things, but definitly relates to F functions.
    In the book "The Managed Heart," Hochschild mentiones about fomal donation of feelings, 'emotional rules' and 'acts' on feelings. These views are good to describe about this kind of things, I guess.

    • Strong F (maybe ?) people are good at emotional act (in both and superficial?), understand/play/force/etc... an emotional rule unconsciously and thrive on formal donation.
    • With T, percieving function (maybe S?) and maybe a bit of , people can observe what kind of raw emotions people have and how emotional rules are going and formal donation is being done consciously.

    Strictly, a rule is always with its donation laws. So, if you see a rule soon you can find certain emotional exchange rate among people, and if you see an exchange case about a certain situation, you can name its rule.

    So, now these really would be like below.
    • Joy dislikes forced emotional rules (even it doesn't have bad exchange rates for her)
    • Noticing people's feelings in both act and raw, yet emotional problem bugs weak people. It's because they are not well conscious of emotional rules. Even knowing, it's hard to play the role perfect. Maybe being unconscious of emotional rule or acting like it is important at this point.

    In my experience, some Ts are not always conscious about law emotion and emotional rules while their emotional interaction is relatively smooth. Perhaps poor hinders consciousness and is working well.

    Any suggestion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    "It's when people try to tell me that I "think too much with my head instead of my heart" and similar bullshit, and when people try to tell me how I feel (I HATE that!) or why I did something. It's just as much, however, when people try to use Fe to manipulate me (even if it's good natured)."

    How about when people use Fi to manipulate you? You don't hate that?
    Fi manipulation is easier for me to deal with. Sometimes it's comforting, and when it's not, it's easier for me to communicate effectively with the person.

    anndelise, I don't have time right now to write a post describing the many examples of Fe I that have to deal with, but I would appreciate it if you didn't say things like "I don't think you know what you're talking about" in response to every comment I make about a function. If you believe I have been misinformed on exactly what a specific function is, the logical thing to do would be to explain what the correct description of that function is rather than simply stating that I have have no idea what I'm talking about. Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessy
    The things such like manupilating is not always type things, but definitly relates to F functions.
    In the book "The Managed Heart," Hochschild mentiones about fomal donation of feelings, 'emotional rules' and 'acts' on feelings. These views are good to describe about this kind of things, I guess.

    • Strong F (maybe ?) people are good at emotional act (in both and superficial?), understand/play/force/etc... an emotional rule unconsciously and thrive on formal donation.
    • With T, percieving function (maybe S?) and maybe a bit of , people can observe what kind of raw emotions people have and how emotional rules are going and formal donation is being done consciously.

    Strictly, a rule is always with its donation laws. So, if you see a rule soon you can find certain emotional exchange rate among people, and if you see an exchange case about a certain situation, you can name its rule.

    So, now these really would be like below.
    • Joy dislikes forced emotional rules (even it doesn't have bad exchange rates for her)
    • Noticing people's feelings in both act and raw, yet emotional problem bugs weak people. It's because they are not well conscious of emotional rules. Even knowing, it's hard to play the role perfect. Maybe being unconscious of emotional rule or acting like it is important at this point.

    In my experience, some Ts are not always conscious about law emotion and emotional rules while their emotional interaction is relatively smooth. Perhaps poor hinders consciousness and is working well.

    Any suggestion?
    The interesting thing about manipulation, is that yes, underneath lies emotions irregardless of whether one is an T type or an F type, and irregardless of an individual's awareness of own or others emotions. Please keep in mind, though, that functions are about information, not decisions, not choices, and not actions. Those are individualized things, not type related.

    Now, you say that Ts are not always conscious about laws and rules related to emotions. Neither are Fs. Think about it....laws and rules would be a T thing right? Planning out one's actions, how best to manipulate a person, which emotions to push and pull and how best to do that requires utilizing both T and F functions. Emotions may give the motivations, but it's the planning which aides efficiency....much like politics' methods of manipulating the people. On the other hand there are those who don't recognize that they are being manipulative (in the negative sense).

    Here is a link that deals with self help involving manipulation: http://www.coping.org/control/manipul.htm
    There is nothing in this site that implies that Ti and Te types canNOT do these things as well. And in fact, some of them would require Ti and Te information.

    Some examples from this site are:
    * "It can be a "politically savvy'' tool to handle over-controlling, intimidating, and autocratic people, places, or things, by giving the impression that the others have the "power'' when in reality you are freely doing what you need to do in order to politically survive and thus retain the "locus of control'' in your own hands. "
    * "It is a form of mind control or brainwashing to control the thinking of others in a way which may not be consistent with their previous pattern of behavior, feeling or thinking. "
    * "Power position since tt places the "manipulator'' in a power position in control of the emotions and reasoning of those being manipulated. "
    * "Survival'' technique which allows you to retain control of your life to ensure you that no one takes advantage of you. "
    * "Power struggle tool, since in any struggle for power and control it is a tool'' which is used to catch the other side off guard in order to win'' the contest. "
    And if we look on this forum and in the chat room, we constantly run into both F types and T types using the following manipulation techniques:
    Play the victim
    Play the martyr
    Act angry
    Say "anything you want'' when you don't mean it
    Act compliant when you don't want to
    Lie about how you feel
    Tell stories or fabrications
    Use hyperbole or exaggeration to build up problems
    Act as a "wedge'' between people keeping them divided against one another
    Act judgmental or shame people
    Use ridicule
    Passive aggressiveness
    Blame others for your problems
    Kiss up
    Act "out of it''
    Act "sorry'' for your bad behaviors
    Insincere promising of change or reformation of behaviors
    Keep everybody upset to keep focus off you
    Keep people around you in competitive relationships
    Act competitively
    There is nothing in the list above which can ONLY be used by F types. Nor is there anything up there that can ONLY be used by T types. Hence, again, the suggestion that it is a people thing, and not a function thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    What type do you think is Japanese society?
    I think cultural or social type is just apparent originated with popular thinkers, politicians and artists. Some people says , but I can say with confidence ISXps are minority.

    Relating to the topic, Hochschild's book is based on the '70 and '80 American society mainly, but the situation surrounding today's Japanese labor is just like this. Even purely deskbound workers are driven by silly expressions like "Cool Businessmen (not persons!) Never Does This" or "Be A Boss Everyone Like To Work Under" or "Loved And Respected By Freshmen Or Not" or something.

    A few month ago, an hotel group is found out removing facilities for the handicapped against regulations. Hearing it, I thought this country doesn't accept a wheelchair businessperson perhaps for the same reason CAs are taught not to carry the customers with scars on the face. Everything pisses me off around here, and I'm getting to be a great fan of her
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    The interesting thing about manipulation, is that yes, underneath lies emotions irregardless of whether one is an T type or an F type, and irregardless of an individual's awareness of own or others emotions. Please keep in mind, though, that functions are about information, not decisions, not choices, and not actions. Those are individualized things, not type related.

    Now, you say that Ts are not always conscious about laws and rules related to emotions. Neither are Fs. Think about it....laws and rules would be a T thing right? Planning out one's actions, how best to manipulate a person, which emotions to push and pull and how best to do that requires utilizing both T and F functions. Emotions may give the motivations, but it's the planning which aides efficiency....much like politics' methods of manipulating the people. On the other hand there are those who don't recognize that they are being manipulative (in the negative sense).

    Here is a link that deals with self help involving manipulation: http://www.coping.org/control/manipul.htm
    There is nothing in this site that implies that Ti and Te types canNOT do these things as well. And in fact, some of them would require Ti and Te information.

    Some examples from this site are:
    * "It can be a "politically savvy'' tool to handle over-controlling, intimidating, and autocratic people, places, or things, by giving the impression that the others have the "power'' when in reality you are freely doing what you need to do in order to politically survive and thus retain the "locus of control'' in your own hands. "
    * "It is a form of mind control or brainwashing to control the thinking of others in a way which may not be consistent with their previous pattern of behavior, feeling or thinking. "
    * "Power position since tt places the "manipulator'' in a power position in control of the emotions and reasoning of those being manipulated. "
    * "Survival'' technique which allows you to retain control of your life to ensure you that no one takes advantage of you. "
    * "Power struggle tool, since in any struggle for power and control it is a tool'' which is used to catch the other side off guard in order to win'' the contest. "
    And if we look on this forum and in the chat room, we constantly run into both F types and T types using the following manipulation techniques:
    Play the victim
    Play the martyr
    Act angry
    Say "anything you want'' when you don't mean it
    Act compliant when you don't want to
    Lie about how you feel
    Tell stories or fabrications
    Use hyperbole or exaggeration to build up problems
    Act as a "wedge'' between people keeping them divided against one another
    Act judgmental or shame people
    Use ridicule
    Passive aggressiveness
    Blame others for your problems
    Kiss up
    Act "out of it''
    Act "sorry'' for your bad behaviors
    Insincere promising of change or reformation of behaviors
    Keep everybody upset to keep focus off you
    Keep people around you in competitive relationships
    Act competitively
    There is nothing in the list above which can ONLY be used by F types. Nor is there anything up there that can ONLY be used by T types. Hence, again, the suggestion that it is a people thing, and not a function thing.
    Yes, Hochschild mentioned about hierarchy also applied to the emotional rules and its rates, and said most of the highest are men. Considering male F type is not major and minority is often hard to rise up, it's not natural only functions and types work for this.
    Her image about hierarchy is against sexism and a bit like conspiratorial idea so it's somewhat realistic, but, most of all, when we feel unequalness there's something different from our natural born possibility. No doubt some factors except Socionics are with this.
    Maybe 's essential power for this is how to go through formal donation, and it doesn't matter how the exchange rate is good or bad to the owner of the function. Some exchange contains moving the power balance, and others don't. Strong owners can suffer from this, and using T some people can maintain their good rate. Every types can be up above the rate.

    And she wrote almost about conscious emotion inside an individual, so strictly she described vividly about few relation between many. Inevitably, clearly manipulative action between two or more is seldom reported in detail.
    Maybe story about bill collectors who got to regard debtors as cheating is the example for this. They threaten and assult verbally, and get unrealistic excuses finally. Then they reinforce the idea debtors are cheating. They can use moderate way to cooperate, and most of them know it usually works, though. Actually debtors often had serious reasons not to afford to pay, and even in some cases services the creditor company has offered increased it e.g. schools without actual result. But she mainly forcused this to explain how a company's policy affects workers' kindness or rudeness and debtors' relative states, not about 1-on-1 manipulation. I don't know about other books.
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    I find this topic a bit hard. Fe does not bother me at all. I just do not like negatively loaded Fe but I can switch it off if it is too much.

    It could be the article of Rick is good but I also imagine that in reality the expression of type is more diverse. I have met people with strong Fe which are very pleasent to be around if they are kind and nice. I think Fe can be fun when it is in EGO block. I am surprised that Joy is so sensitive to Fe to a degree that I start thinking of Fe as 4th function. Did we ever discussed Fe as 4th or 3d function on the forum?

    I saw many ESFJ who are using Fe extreamly gentle and charming. I do fall for ESFJs easily. ENFJs can be harder but again, can besoft too I guess. But my mum, ESTJ, can hurt me better than anybody else with her Fe (shouting and just putting me down by twisting the facts around). Fe directed by Te can be a nusty thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    anndelise, I don't have time right now to write a post describing the many examples of Fe I that have to deal with, but I would appreciate it if you didn't say things like "I don't think you know what you're talking about" in response to every comment I make about a function. If you believe I have been misinformed on exactly what a specific function is, the logical thing to do would be to explain what the correct description of that function is rather than simply stating that I have have no idea what I'm talking about. Thank you.
    Why is is that every time I ask you for actual descriptions of what you are referring to when you make comments like "i hate Fe manipulation" and "i just hit him with a lot of Fe until he backs off" you get defensive/offensive? I honestly don't know what you mean when you say such things. Which is why I keep asking that question. All I asked for was for one or two actual descriptions of the experience you are looking for, so I could get an idea about what you keep referring to. I even offered an example of Fe information being utilized to manipulate someone, to see if perhaps it's those kinds of things you are referring to. If it was, all you'd have had to do was say yes. If not, I didn't think 1-2 descriptions was all that much to ask for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    anndelise, I don't have time right now to write a post describing the many examples of Fe I that have to deal with . . .
    I went through this thread and tried to take out things which you wrote which could suggest possible experiences. Not as good as getting actual descriptions, though.

    Here's some information you provided, I'll do my best at interpreting this information…though I suppose that it would be rude and invasive to do so:
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I'll break up the article and comment on my opinions of people like that.
    You may think your happiness or discouragement is well concealed and invisible to those around you, but it is all in plain view to types, who directly observe your external self-expression and draw conclusions from it about what's happening inside of you, what you are experiencing, how well you fit into the emotional context of the situation, whether you like or dislike what is going on, and what you may feel like doing next, etc. Each unusual intonation or gesture, each hint of irritation in our voice, each awkward pause, each chuckle or sudden change of expression sends a extraverted ethics signal to other people.
    I am very uncomfortable around people like that. If I want people to know how I feel about something, I will make it known. STOP TRYING TO READ ME. It's rude.

    Slightly unrelated, if for whatever reason I feel the need to oblige and offer external signals about what's going on inside me, I feel resentful.

    Some types — particularly ILI and SLI (with emotive ethics as their fourth function) consciously try to send as few signals of this kind as possible — and are usually successful. This makes ESEs and EIEs (with emotive ethics as their first function) mistrustful and unsure of themselves, since they have too little information to go by in their interaction with such people.
    I definitely do that.

    They use their own expressiveness to guide other people's internal experiences and help them experience a wider range of passions and more intense feelings.
    leave me alone, please. Your attempts at manipulation, no matter how good natured, invariably make me distrustful. I can't really let my gaurd down.

    types like to discuss these passions and to analyze and discuss their own and others' feelings — not necessarily to change them, but more to bring them out in the open and understand them in order to base one's actions on one's true passions.
    No No No No No No No. This is about as rude and invasive as a person can be.
    OK, you've said that you are uncomfortable around people who tend to notice and interpret your external expressions. Who notice your tense body, balled up fists, protruding blood vessels and interpret that as you are angry at the moment. Who see you smile, laugh, body relaxed, and interpret that as you are relatively happy at the moment.

    You find it rude that they are capable of picking up on the signals you either attempt to hide or don't realize you are sending out. (Honest question: Isn't trying to hide that information a form of manipulation?)

    Based on the above responses, I'm left to assume that you find it rude that if someone notices you are upset then they drop the issue at hand or, heaven forbid, try to understand what's making you upset. This last is rude and invasive.

    That you find it rude and invasive when you come home from work and your mate notices you're stressed, asks how your day was (how dare he try to know/understand what you've gone through that day) and offers a back massage to help put you in a more relaxing mood. What a manipulative prick, eh.

    That you find it rude that your family notices signs that you might be completely exhausted or sick, and insist on taking care of you, cleaning the house, cooking meals for you, holding back your hair while you vomit, and then cleaning it up afterwards. Families can be so insensitive sometimes. After all, you didn't them to do these things for you.

    And at work? A boss who notices you're sick and sends you home to recuperate is deemed rude and manipulative.
    ***

    As for others requesting signals from you, I can see how it could be considered rude for your mate to ask for some kind of signal from you that you're enjoying or not enjoying some sexual technique he's using on you. Heaven forbid he get off on your moans and screams. And surely, you don’t pay attention to that kind of information. After, all, it'd be rude and invasive to know that he is enjoying something you are doing to him. Much better to ignore those signals and let him tell you in words alone (even if he can't speak at the moment *wicked grin* ).

    And I can see how it could be considered rude that a boss could ask an employee to be a little more patient and understanding with clients/customers. After all, clients/customers shouldn't be reacting to an employees mood signals.
    ***

    Is this the kind of rude, invasive, manipulating Fe to which you keep referring to? Or did you have something more specific in mind.?. *innocent smile*
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    ann, the problem with your examples is the EXACT reason that I have a hard time giving examples: they all sounded like other functions to me. It's not so much what Fe types say and do that bothers me, it's HOW they say and do it. And the MAIN reason I feel uncomfortable around Fe types is that I feel very, very much put on the spot. If I felt that I was allowed to ingore them, it wouldn't be so bad, but I feel like I'm being engaged in a manner which I do not wish to be engaged in, and I feel obligated to comply.

    Olga mentioned that the degree of my distaste for Fe almost points toward Fe as a 4th function. I have considered that, but IxTp doesn't make sense for me. I'm far too dynamic and "proctive, restless" describes me much better than "calm". The answer lies in Rocky's response to this thread.

    When we're confronted with out 4th function, we don't feel like we need to comply. We feel it's something that others shouldn't expect of us. It's sensitive when directly criticized, but we try to avoid it altogether whenever possible.

    When we're confronted with out 3rd function, we are uncomfortable because we do feel like we need to comply. We try to "fit in" in our use of our third function, just trying not to stand out, and we greatly dislike it when someone makes us feel that our use of it is inadequate, or even simply demands that we use it.
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    http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=5122

    And the MAIN reason I feel uncomfortable around Fe types is that I feel very, very much put on the spot. If I felt that I was allowed to ingore them, it wouldn't be so bad, but I feel like I'm being engaged in a manner which I do not wish to be engaged in, and I feel obligated to comply.

    Olga mentioned that the degree of my distaste for Fe almost points toward Fe as a 4th function. I have considered that, but IxTp doesn't make sense for me. I'm far too dynamic and "proctive, restless" describes me much better than "calm". The answer lies in Rocky's response to this thread.

    When we're confronted with out 4th function, we don't feel like we need to comply. We feel it's something that others shouldn't expect of us. It's sensitive when directly criticized, but we try to avoid it altogether whenever possible.

    When we're confronted with out 3rd function, we are uncomfortable because we do feel like we need to comply. We try to "fit in" in our use of our third function, just trying not to stand out, and we greatly dislike it when someone makes us feel that our use of it is inadequate, or even simply demands that we use it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I went through this thread and tried to take out things which you wrote which could suggest possible experiences. Not as good as getting actual descriptions, though.

    Here's some information you provided, I'll do my best at interpreting this information…though I suppose that it would be rude and invasive to do so:

    [edited for brevity]

    OK, you've said that you are uncomfortable around people who tend to notice and interpret your external expressions. Who notice your tense body, balled up fists, protruding blood vessels and interpret that as you are angry at the moment. Who see you smile, laugh, body relaxed, and interpret that as you are relatively happy at the moment.

    You find it rude that they are capable of picking up on the signals you either attempt to hide or don't realize you are sending out. (Honest question: Isn't trying to hide that information a form of manipulation?)

    Based on the above responses, I'm left to assume that you find it rude that if someone notices you are upset then they drop the issue at hand or, heaven forbid, try to understand what's making you upset. This last is rude and invasive.

    That you find it rude and invasive when you come home from work and your mate notices you're stressed, asks how your day was (how dare he try to know/understand what you've gone through that day) and offers a back massage to help put you in a more relaxing mood. What a manipulative prick, eh.

    That you find it rude that your family notices signs that you might be completely exhausted or sick, and insist on taking care of you, cleaning the house, cooking meals for you, holding back your hair while you vomit, and then cleaning it up afterwards. Families can be so insensitive sometimes. After all, you didn't them to do these things for you.

    And at work? A boss who notices you're sick and sends you home to recuperate is deemed rude and manipulative.
    ***

    As for others requesting signals from you, I can see how it could be considered rude for your mate to ask for some kind of signal from you that you're enjoying or not enjoying some sexual technique he's using on you. Heaven forbid he get off on your moans and screams. And surely, you don’t pay attention to that kind of information. After, all, it'd be rude and invasive to know that he is enjoying something you are doing to him. Much better to ignore those signals and let him tell you in words alone (even if he can't speak at the moment *wicked grin* ).

    And I can see how it could be considered rude that a boss could ask an employee to be a little more patient and understanding with clients/customers. After all, clients/customers shouldn't be reacting to an employees mood signals.
    ***

    Is this the kind of rude, invasive, manipulating Fe to which you keep referring to? Or did you have something more specific in mind.?. *innocent smile*
    (Yes, I know I'm not Joy..)
    In a word, yes. Though it's rather a strawman. My biggest problem isn't so much that they react to it, but HOW they react to it, and what happens when they don't get those signals. Going by paragraph (starting at 3)..

    1. Generally, I try not to give those signals out - but when I do, I'd rather people didn't ask questions or bug me about it. If I wanted to share, I would - verbally (this applies more to negative states than positive ones).

    2. Not that they're capable of picking up on it - I wish I could. It's when they think that those signals are an invitation of some sort. (Whether or not it's manipulation, I try not to send signals [I believe] largely because I don't want this type of intrusion. I consider it less rude than just telling everyone around me who irritates me in this way to bug off [which is quite likely to have results other than intended].)

    3. Again, if I wanted them to know, or their help, I'd tell/ask them.

    4. I'd react better to the massage (kind of - I largely don't like being touched, especially around my neck) then the questions. In general, I'll probably react better to actions than probing words/questions.

    5 & 6: I normally won't react so badly in these circumstances because there's an apparent and good reason for such treatment.

    7. Moving on...

    8. Not at all - I don't take it as having to be sincere about it, and I can understand the business reasoning behind it.

    9. Hasn't "misanthropic" been occasionally applied to INTp's?

    --------
    edit: Oh yes, forgot to mention http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4678 - Might shed some light, and according to Expat is more about Te over Fe than just particular to ISTp's.
    INTp

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    Iam also thinking that it is not the 4th function but rather those functions in superid block which hurt when pushed. Superid block is our supersensitive spot, where we are unprotected like babies and sarcasm, jokes and critical comments to my - I find it hard to take because I consider and feel it as cruel due to my base . I am not saying anything in respond just feel despair.

    Critics towards my Ne: I do not remember it. If somebody saysto me the person is not that good as I think - I get protective trying to swithc of the unpleasant comment. Critics towards Ti does not bother or suprise me much or stop me doing what I want- I know myself my limits in this function.

    Could it be by any chance that Joy's is somewhere in her Superid block?
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    Imagine a world without Fe. Would progression halt?

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