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Thread: T and F bullshit

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    Default T and F bullshit.

    It annoys the fuck out of me when people think that I'm an ESFp, simply because I don't blow random people off by flipping them the bird, and flame people down to the grave on internet forums.

    Hear me: being a logical type DOES NOT automatically make one rude, socially inept, mean, cold, friendless, or anything along those lines. On the same note, being an ethical type DOES NOT automatically make one sociable, nice, polite, or any of that.

    For example, consider this situation: I work at a summer camp, with tons of kids, aged from Kindergarden through 9th grade. Not only this, but I have bosses too. I try to be open, friendly, polite, and warm towards them. Not only does this make them happy, but it helps me make friends, and it ensures that I will get the job again next summer. When you make a good impression on people, it makes life so much easier and more enjoyable for both parties. Now, does this make me an ethical type? Not neccessarily. I have figured out these skills by observing successful and well-liked people, and taking note of how they interact around others. This does not mean that I have any sort of as a creative function, but rather, that I have learned how to work in the system, and learning how to function socially with others is one of the requirements. Along with this, I am female, and I would look pretty weird if I was totally cold, rude, and reclused. To avoid this, I often act in a manner that seems similar to an ethical type's; however, I am still a logical type. I naturally do things the way, and that's how my brain works. Nothing is changing that.


    From the other side of the fence, I know some pretty nasty ethical types. I know this one ESFp male, who really has trouble when dealing with people, because he isn't a very nice person. I've never really had a problem with him, because I can just ignore him when he goes on mood trips, but other people can't readily do that. He often loses his temper and throws stuff at people, says some pretty shitty things to them, etc. Does that mean that he is a logical type because he doesn't deal with people all that well? Absolutely not!

    I also know an INFp guy that told an 8 year old girl to go through puberty. He is definately not an INTp either.


    What I'm trying to say: people of both T and F types can easily figure out how to do the other, whatever that might be. However, that doesn't make them a different type or anything.

    Off rant.
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    Dioklecian's Avatar
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    This post strikes me as very ESTP. All that is missing is the stopping of the feet on the floor, the loud voice, and hand waving

    I am sure they are present on the other side of the internet though
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    You're not wrong. Socionics type is just impersonal, and there's no specific type mentally immature or immoral always.
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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I have a hard time demonstrating warm friendliness -- dealing with people is not something that I'm naturally good at. I envy those who interact with all kinds of different people and seem completely at ease, socialable.
    I'm just like you, and also liked by animals and little children and strayings.
    At least they think we're amiable, ain't it?

    Regarding unsociableness as a bad thing is an only social (and yes, you know, by socialable people!!) matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessy
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I have a hard time demonstrating warm friendliness -- dealing with people is not something that I'm naturally good at. I envy those who interact with all kinds of different people and seem completely at ease, socialable.
    I'm just like you, and also liked by animals and little children and strayings.
    At least they think we're amiable, ain't it?

    Regarding unsociableness as a bad thing is an only social (and yes, you know, by socialable people!!) matter.
    I'm only good with small children and animals too.

    But I agree, I've learned to be polite when the situation calls for it, I have feelings, I just prefer not to use them when making judgements and let them dominate my life.
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    What's it with these avatars? You mean, Herzy's not the guy in the picture? Rcmew always has a woman in his avatar, and Expat used to in his. Is that just the style these days with the way people do avatars on forums, generally? I'm a bit behind the times. :-)

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    My avatar is a pic of me.
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    I tend to think that with Fi-PoLR the artificial restrictions related to "self" are gone so you can very easily observe and calculate the "best" behavior for each situation. Very effective but somehow very robotic. To calculate your behavior to suit your goals. This is the thing that sometimes bothers me in ENTp and ESTp. Even though they smile at you and say please and thank you and make you feel good it doesn't _mean_ anything. It doesn't symbolize anything. It is like looking into the eyes of an android who is programmed to says these things to achieve a goal. You always get the feeling you are talking to a mask not the actual person.

    Strong Fi-types tend to have a strong "self" which restricts and controls everything they do and sometimes it can be mean "self" or antisocial "self" but it is a clear "self". You immediately see what this person is like. There is "nothing" consciously calculated. It is like an open book. You can trust that you see the real person even if it annoys you sometimes. It creates trust in a way.

    About other kind of types...I think Te-Fi people and Fe-Ti people are closer to each other in this sense. Fe people more or less have some kind of "act" going on. Perhaps it is not as calculated but it is somehow hollow. Lots and lots of "meaningless" or "tactical" emotions. Te-people instead are very wysiwyg. Easy to read. Not acting at all. And often not too good with manners

    Personally I think I'm not too bothered about other people's manners. I try to be positive in general and expect others to try that too. But if someone forgets to say "hi" or "thank you" to me or is just a bit grumpy it doesn't bother me much. I kinda try to "grasp" what the person is like in a more "intuitive" level. If it is a "good" person then the manners don't matter. If it is a "bad" person then no mannerism is going to save anything anyways.

    But back to the original claim. Yes T/F doen't say too much about manners or acting in a positive way or even social skills. So the original claim is pretty accurate. However it looks the issue from a point of view that is somehow strange to me. As if the manners themselves are most important not what they symbolize. If inside your mind you hate someone but still smile to him it is somehow a very good thing. To me it is somehow deceitful. Your external act doesn't symbolize your mind. You consciously decide to deceive the other person in order to gain something from him. From a purely business point of view it makes sense of course. And I do it too when circumstances force me to. Just..it feels wrong somehow when doing it.

    Umm..did I answer the original question or not? I kind of forgot the details of the claim during my monologue trip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    My avatar is a pic of me.
    *laugh*


    @Herzy: I agree. My ESTP cousin, whom I said a long time ago looks a bit like you, always "comes off" that way, nice and polite and so on. She's a JAP though.

    But use some common sense. If about half the people in the world were totally rude, well...
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    However it looks the issue from a point of view that is somehow strange to me. As if the manners themselves are most important not what they symbolize. If inside your mind you hate someone but still smile to him it is somehow a very good thing. To me it is somehow deceitful. Your external act doesn't symbolize your mind. You consciously decide to deceive the other person in order to gain something from him. From a purely business point of view it makes sense of course. And I do it too when circumstances force me to. Just..it feels wrong somehow when doing it.
    Have you ever read "The Managed Heart?" I've just read it and it's a quite stimulating stuff about such emotional "deceit" and our society.
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    T and F bullshit.
    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    T and F bullshit.
    lol
    Welcome to the meaner side of Ts.





    And Rocky is our side and his cousin is not and I'm a jap. See how they run like typists from the ban, see how they fly. I'm crying!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    What's it with these avatars? You mean, Herzy's not the guy in the picture? Rcmew always has a woman in his avatar, and Expat used to in his. Is that just the style these days with the way people do avatars on forums, generally? I'm a bit behind the times. :-)
    I never thought that it was the most common style to use your own picture as avatar, in fact, in the forums I have seen so far that has been the exception rather than the rule. I think people have their own reasons for choosing avatars (which may be no real reason at all). I did have a Yulia Tymoshenko in my avatar but not for a second thinking that someone would think that was my picture.


    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    I tend to think that with Fi-PoLR the artificial restrictions related to "self" are gone so you can very easily observe and calculate the "best" behavior for each situation. Very effective but somehow very robotic. To calculate your behavior to suit your goals. This is the thing that sometimes bothers me in ENTp and ESTp. Even though they smile at you and say please and thank you and make you feel good it doesn't _mean_ anything. It doesn't symbolize anything. It is like looking into the eyes of an android who is programmed to says these things to achieve a goal. You always get the feeling you are talking to a mask not the actual person.
    That is a good point but I don't think it only applies to PoLR types.

    As for Herzy's point, I had never any doubt that ESTps can be very clever manipulators when they think that's the way to get what they want.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    What's it with these avatars? You mean, Herzy's not the guy in the picture? Rcmew always has a woman in his avatar, and Expat used to in his. Is that just the style these days with the way people do avatars on forums, generally? I'm a bit behind the times. :-)
    I never thought that it was the most common style to use your own picture as avatar, in fact, in the forums I have seen so far that has been the exception rather than the rule. I think people have their own reasons for choosing avatars (which may be no real reason at all). I did have a Yulia Tymoshenko in my avatar but not for a second thinking that someone would think that was my picture.
    Well I guess I have to point it out that it is NOT me in my avatar Even though we share something in common we also have some major differences. Anyways I agree it has been rare to see people using their own pic in their avatar. Perhaps about 5-10 people have been doing that. But then again jumping between male/female pics is kinda confusing to all new people I know it messed my head when I first arrived. You thought you knew who someone is then it turns out you didn't. Now I'm kinda used to it The latest phenomena is the nick changing which is harder to adapt to especially combined with avatar changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessy
    Have you ever read "The Managed Heart?" I've just read it and it's a quite stimulating stuff about such emotional "deceit" and our society.
    I can't remember that I had. Perhaps I should then I think this depends on the society too. For example my country is small and has very unique cultural history and used to be quite free from this stuff. Now globalism and culture exchange has in very short time changed the culture a lot and I think you can call "managing hearts" a rule here too now. You just can't seem to survive unless you do it. Oh the good old days I miss you

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    Quote Originally Posted by stefana
    I mean they are not hard to read and can come off as queerly sneaky if they are hiding something/pretending.
    this has been my experience as well. my ex developes these plots from time to time, and it's always soooo obvious when he's up to something, no matter how well he thinks he's hiding it. then he gets very irritated and indignant when I don't totally trust him. he's done a lot of extremely underhanded things, too.

    example: one time, a few days after I had a major surgery, he called and asked if we could go over the divorce paper work. I was supposed to rest for 2 months and not supposed to leave my bed for weeks except to go to the bathroom. I was to avoid dry, cold air as well, to the extent of turning the furnace up high and running a humidifier. I was all loopy from the pain medication, and I agreed to meet with him. I don't recall how I ended up agreeing to meet with him at his house instead of mine, but he ended up picking me up and taking me to his house. Once I was at his house, he gave me some papers to look through. I said that as far as I could tell, it was all in order. Then he told me to sign one of the papers in the pile. I asked him what it was, and he got all wierd. He was trying to be slick, but even when I was all drugged up I could tell something was amiss. It took me a while to read and make sense of the paper... it was a document his lawyer wrote up saying that I was signing all of my rights to our son over to him. He actually thought that I would be so drugged up that he could slip it in with the divorce papers and I wouldn't notice. When I refused to sign it, he kicked me out of his house... refused to give me a ride home in the middle of February in 5 degree F weather, and I had to walk 3 miles home. Later I found out that he, against court order, cancelled my health insurance before the divorce was final. I ended up with more than $20,000 in medical debt from the surgery. I ended up filing for bankruptcy.
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    that's absolutely NOTHING compared to trying to get me to sign my rights to my son over to him while I was all drugged up
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    Joy did you say before that he is an ESTj? Not implying that his behaviour had anything to do with his type of course.

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    Wow..what a horror story Joy, no wonder you go divorced from him
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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by stefana
    I mean they are not hard to read and can come off as queerly sneaky if they are hiding something/pretending.
    this has been my experience as well. my ex developes these plots from time to time, and it's always soooo obvious when he's up to something, no matter how well he thinks he's hiding it. then he gets very irritated and indignant when I don't totally trust him. he's done a lot of extremely underhanded things, too.

    example: one time, a few days after I had a major surgery, he called and asked if we could go over the divorce paper work. I was supposed to rest for 2 months and not supposed to leave my bed for weeks except to go to the bathroom. I was to avoid dry, cold air as well, to the extent of turning the furnace up high and running a humidifier. I was all loopy from the pain medication, and I agreed to meet with him. I don't recall how I ended up agreeing to meet with him at his house instead of mine, but he ended up picking me up and taking me to his house. Once I was at his house, he gave me some papers to look through. I said that as far as I could tell, it was all in order. Then he told me to sign one of the papers in the pile. I asked him what it was, and he got all wierd. He was trying to be slick, but even when I was all drugged up I could tell something was amiss. It took me a while to read and make sense of the paper... it was a document his lawyer wrote up saying that I was signing all of my rights to our son over to him. He actually thought that I would be so drugged up that he could slip it in with the divorce papers and I wouldn't notice. When I refused to sign it, he kicked me out of his house... refused to give me a ride home in the middle of February in 5 degree F weather, and I had to walk 3 miles home. Later I found out that he, against court order, cancelled my health insurance before the divorce was final. I ended up with more than $20,000 in medical debt from the surgery. I ended up filing for bankruptcy.
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    That is monstrous.

    And as far as types go, it doesn't sound ESTj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    yeah, he's ESTj

    There's a lot more to it than just that oyburger, but it's primarily my fault for marrying him in the first place. I didn't know if I loved him, but I figured even if I didn't, one day I would. Besides, I was depressed, and I figured that since I was never going to be happy anyways, I should just do what will make other people happy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    That is monstrous.

    And as far as types go, it doesn't sound ESTj.
    He's definitely ESTj. He's like the perfect textbook example of an ESTj. The above story isn't type related. All types do horrible things.
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    The reason I posted that whole thing in the first place was because it was brought up that ESTjs aren't good at hiding it when they're up to something. I don't know if that applies to all ESTjs, but it's certainly obvious when the 2 ESTjs I know have something shady in the works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Later I found out that he, against court order, cancelled my health insurance before the divorce was final. I ended up with more than $20,000 in medical debt from the surgery. I ended up filing for bankruptcy.
    Um, I hope you sued him over this. You'd have won, and he'd likely have been responsible for covering at least half of what the insurance would have paid.
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    No good could have possibly come of that. My interactions with him are based entirely around our son. If it's not good for Travis, I'm not interested. His dad plays a very active role in his life, which is more than you can say about a lot of men!

    Besides, I live in a marital property state, so when I filed bankruptcy, all of the creditors started sending him bills.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I live in a marital property state, so when I filed bankruptcy, all of the creditors started sending him bills.

    I wonder if my state has that. My friend divorced her husband after he gave her a couple of STDs from cheating. She has two kids, lives with her parents and he won't pay any child support or even spend time with his kids. If she files for bankruptcy, maybe he would have to pay someone, even if its not her
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    I'm pretty sure Wisconsin is the only marital property state. For that reason there are no common law marriages here.
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    Ahh I see, darn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I live in a marital property state, so when I filed bankruptcy, all of the creditors started sending him bills.

    I wonder if my state has that. My friend divorced her husband after he gave her a couple of STDs from cheating. She has two kids, lives with her parents and he won't pay any child support or even spend time with his kids. If she files for bankruptcy, maybe he would have to pay someone, even if its not her
    there's ways to make him pay child support (or go to jail). sometimes private organizations are better at chasing down dead beat dads that the government. if he moves to kentucky though, she's screwed.
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    The problem is that in the town we live in, his family is full of big wigs and she's scared to go to the authorities. She's afriad his dad will take her kids away. I keep telling her that grandparents don't have legal rights like that, but he can afford the best lawyers and she can't. All the men in his family use aggression and threats to get what they want. The jerk used to beat her when she was well over 8 months pregnant with the first kid. My anger at this man runs very deep.
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    in some states, grandparents do have legal rights

    sounds like a shitty situation

    I'm glad she got out of there
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    This is a bit off-topic (or perhaps not) -- but each time I hear this kind of horror stories, I wonder what makes such women marry those guys in the first place.

    Do not give me the "he was nice, but he changed" bullshit -- men who do the kind of stuff as you described are major assholes, simple as that. So the question is how the women did not notice that.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    There's a lot more to it than just that oyburger, but it's primarily my fault for marrying him in the first place. I didn't know if I loved him, but I figured even if I didn't, one day I would. Besides, I was depressed, and I figured that since I was never going to be happy anyways, I should just do what will make other people happy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    i always watch the way a guy interacts with his parents, brothers, sisters, etc. it's one of the best behavior predictors IMHO.
    Then I'd be a candidate for asshole, since I was the only Gamma in an Alpha family - ISFp father, ESFj mother, ENTp brother, and later ISFp sister-in-law - and always had a distant relationship with all of them, closer with my mother but with lot of lack of mutual understanding nonetheless.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    i always watch the way a guy interacts with his parents, brothers, sisters, etc. it's one of the best behavior predictors IMHO.
    Nice, this completely ignores the fact that you're on a socionics forum. An INFj child in a family full of ESTps would be deemed by you as unworthy
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    .............

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    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    i always watch the way a guy interacts with his parents, brothers, sisters, etc. it's one of the best behavior predictors IMHO.
    While on some level I agree with this, I'm going to have to make a point similar to Expat and FDG's. I do think that someone who treats others with disrespect is not to be trusted though. When you start dating someone, they can act very nice to you and be a total asshole to others. Watch for read flags.

    That said, my dual boyfriend treats me far differently than he does his contrary mother, who he *does* respect, but also says *very* critical things to. He is critical with me, but not as much as he is her and other people I have seen him interact with. With me his criticism is healthier, but it's also received better. He doesn't need to be as negative in order to get his point across.
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